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<XXCoder>
;mission
<LunchBot>
You dive deep into Jool in pursuit of helium-3. UmbralRaptor glares at you and quotes Wikipedia.
<XXCoder>
hmmm
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<raptop>
XXCoder: in the context of that mission, I'm probably explaining why He-3 fusion is a silly idea
<raptop>
If you want something more or less aneutronic that badly, have you considered p-B11?
<XXCoder>
i dont know why he3 fusion is bad?
<XXCoder>
reading aneutronic
<raptop>
Still produces some neutrons, vastly harder than D-T, He-3 is a hassle to get
<XXCoder>
interesting
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<SporkWitch>
the appeal of Deuterium-Tritium is that deuterium is functionally available in unlimited supply, and thanks to tritium breeding, the reactor can theoretically be self-sustaining as long as you supply it with lithium6
<SporkWitch>
it's also much easier to achieve a reaction
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<Izaya>
lmao, just found out
<Izaya>
the launcher everyone complains about? not shipped with the linux version
<Izaya>
beautiful
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<raptop>
lol
<raptop>
Also, I don't think it's in the store version
<Izaya>
hadn't even looked into it, still using the previous version because the changes make zero difference to me
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<sandbox>
1337
<NeckoGecko>
16:50
<NeckoGecko>
:P
<cringe>
ISS Urine Tank Level: 34%
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<Mat2ch>
what nobody talks about in scifi movies is the amount of damage a rocket engine does when starting and landing...
<Althego>
are you talking about the boca chica orbital launch mount?
<Mat2ch>
Althego: it looks scorched, but not too bad
<SporkWitch>
goes into more detail about colony progression and a shift from funds to resources
<Mat2ch>
but think about scifi movies where they land and no small rocks are thrown around
<Mat2ch>
Landing somewhere on gravel would sandblast everything in a few meters radius
<Althego>
now we know that is another shortcomings in scifi
<Mat2ch>
yeah and that's why SpaceX wants to have the engines on their lunar lander far at the top :D
<Althego>
remember people said landing with starship on the moon is dangerous because it can throw the dust into orbit
<Althego>
there is also a reason there are ideas to make landing pads before the first landing
<SporkWitch>
good amount of footage we haven't seen yet in the link above, as well
<SporkWitch>
confirmation they're doing they're best to make sure craft files will be forward-compatible so what you build on 24 February can still be loaded in at 1.0 release (no promise, just that they're working hard to make that happen, which I think is good and honest)
<SporkWitch>
confirmed: no more single-thread-per-vessel
<Althego>
yes but also said that it may happen that the beta stuff is now going to work later
<Althego>
now that is huge
<SporkWitch>
yup, why i think it was a good and honest way to put it. Something could happen that requires breaking that compatibility, but they're going to try their best
<Althego>
honestly it doesnt matter much to me
<Althego>
i ruitinely rebuilt stuff to look the same but had some issue
<SporkWitch>
but yeah, physics and everything else all being split off into a jobs system, and specifically referencing performance with massive ships with huge part counts
<SporkWitch>
yeah, it's not huge for me either; i have a habit of building things fresh with each new career and only reusing designs within a single save
<SporkWitch>
details about the automation systems and it sounds like it's almost exactly how WOLF in MKS works: do the op yourself, save it, and it will run repeatedly in the background. NOT limited to simply transport, either; the example given is of a resource mining rover, you drive out to a deposit, harvest, RTB, then you can set that to be automated in the background
<Althego>
i have certain science planes for career
<Althego>
i keep those files
<Althego>
and at specific points i can start to use them when parts are available
<Althego>
but even those were rebuilt several times
<SporkWitch>
even with FAR, flight just doesn't feel right so I tend not to do it much; too much time in stuff like DCS over the years
<SporkWitch>
one thing I'm hoping to get in the new SPH is better feedback on lift and aerodynamic characteristics
<FLHerne>
tbh, I find the stock flight model so bad that it doesn't matter :p
<Althego>
hehe
<SporkWitch>
e.g. stall speed, lift/drag ratios
<SporkWitch>
FLHerne: hence why i use FAR, since it's at least better than stock lol
<Althego>
it is a hard problem to solve
<Althego>
especially for randomly bilt things
<Althego>
even real commercial simulators dont solve it
<Althego>
they just take data from the real aircraft flying
<FLHerne>
(a) you can make basically anything fly with enough thrust (b) it behaves so completely unlike any flight sim handling that it doesn't feel "off"
<FLHerne>
in the same way that, say, a car simulator doesn't feel like a bad flight sim
<SporkWitch>
a is true regardless, as long as it can withstand the aerodynamic forces; that's how that Israeli pilot landing his F15 when it was missing a wing lol
<FLHerne>
it's a reaction-drive-soup simulator and feels exactly right for one of those because I have no other frame of reference
<FLHerne>
yeah, but it means you don't really need any more info in the VAB
<SporkWitch>
I can't agree with b; i'm flying a plane and it doesn't feel like i'm flying a plane. The biggest one that dives me nuts is that there's no weather-vane effect; you SHOULD be able to recover from a flat spin by pitching down and throttling up. this doesn't work in stock KSP, and only sometimes works in FAR
<Althego>
strange, in far i would expect it to work
<FLHerne>
well, to me it feels so unlike flying a plane that I don't feel tempted to try flying it like a plane
<Althego>
ok i never had far
<Althego>
but even that is just a mostly realistic stuff
<SporkWitch>
i know how to fly a plane, so i want my plane to behave like a plane lol
<FLHerne>
I just fly it like an alien soupcraft and it flies just like it is
<Althego>
hehe
<Althego>
you are free to make a mod with realistic model
<Althego>
would take 2-3 years at least )
<Althego>
and maybe if you have two degrees, in programming and in aerodynamics
<SporkWitch>
FAR mostly tweaks the "layers" of the atmosphere to be a more realistic gradient, as well as changing aerodynamic performance based on speed (how things behave is very different at subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic speeds), and actually calculating the aerodynamic shape of the craft and how that would affect things (and thus also allowing for proper body lift)
<Althego>
you want a cheap game solve one of the hardest onsolved problems
<Althego>
however maybe there is a way out
<Althego>
maybe it would be possible to precompute stuff after building
<Althego>
and store that in the craft file
<SporkWitch>
is it actually unsolved, though? i know for a fact we do computer simulation of aerofoil designs well before they ever build a model and put it in a wind tunnel. It certainly feels like we could pre-calculate some approximation for a given craft, and i'm not even sure that would take long enough that it couldn't be done in real-time if a part is detached or destroyed in flight
<Althego>
but you would need to wait for a craft fiel compiling while it simulates
<Althego>
yes they do simulations extremely computationally expensive
<Althego>
you cant do that real time
<SporkWitch>
i'm finding a fair few results saying we can with modern hardware. This looks like the most detailed I found so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4KWiq3guRU
<Althego>
hehei know this channel
<Althego>
i always find his hungarian accent funny. even worse than mine
<Althego>
remember, this is just a gamew
<Althego>
sometimes it is just unreasonable to expect complete realism
<Althego>
but i agree they can make the flight model better
<Althego>
if far could do it, it is possible
<SporkWitch>
i'm happy to settle for planes actually feeling like planes. for all i care they can write in a "cheat" that just makes it correct under certain reasonable conditions
<SporkWitch>
it's that the ways you "fix" situations just doesn't work that drives me nuts, because it leaves me fighting thousands of hours of trained reflex, and sometimes just leaves things totally unrecoverable when they shouldn't be.
<SporkWitch>
based on the numbers I'm seeing here, this tech would absolutely allow real-time calculation at a fidelity sufficient for our purposes
<SporkWitch>
don't need it anywhere remotely as detailed as he's doing, just need enough for the game to figure out what the forces overall should be, and then can use hardcoded values to actually calculate the exact values cheaply.
<Althego>
the problem is, you probably dont get realistic behavior when you tone down the calculations. remember one of the reasons the osprey crashed? it was an unsimulated tiny effect that just happened to hit the control surfaces making them unusable
<Althego>
but aero effects are probably fine to run on multiple threads
<SporkWitch>
that was an issue of "this looks good enough," it seemed to fly as expected in simulation, but then real world bit it. We don't have that problem with a game, since the simulation IS how it will perform. Much like we don't have to do the same corrections for the shortcomings of patched conics, since patched conics is how the game figures out what to ACTUALLY do, not just predict what will happen
<Althego>
so with increasing core count we may be approaching the territory where games can become real
<SporkWitch>
so we really just need good enough to feel more realistic, even if it misses flaws that would take it down in the real world, it doesn't matter, because the simulation is all that matters for a game
<Althego>
and you are complaining about it
<Althego>
that it does what it does
<SporkWitch>
i'm complaining that what we have in KSP, even with FAR, _isn't_ "good enough"
<Althego>
well it does what it does now, deal with it
<Althego>
maybe try x-plane?
<Althego>
or what was it
<SporkWitch>
who pissed in your cheerios this morning?
<SporkWitch>
there's a flaw, i'm saying i'd like to see it addressed, and how it might be possible based on what I can find.
<SporkWitch>
you're treating it like a hostile attack
<Althego>
yes, might be possible with using cutting edge science lot of programming time, and make the game sell for for 1% more people
<SporkWitch>
nope, everyone was eaten by the kraken
<ThatOneGuy>
haha
<ThatOneGuy>
I need some help
<raptop>
Careful, or the Kraken will eat you and your problem too
<ThatOneGuy>
believe me thats part of the problem
<ThatOneGuy>
so
<SporkWitch>
have you tried ritual sacrifice?
<Althego>
stop it, get some help
<raptop>
Anyway, at a random guess, fewer boosters and/or more struts?
<ThatOneGuy>
im building a station in high kerbin orbit to act as a booster for a cruise ship, you know to hit up all the planets in one go
<ThatOneGuy>
the problems are1 kraken destroying module ships, struts seem to make it worse
<ThatOneGuy>
2 loss of control at docking
<ThatOneGuy>
i tap the station, and then i enter the next dimension over
<SporkWitch>
what size docking ports are you using?
<SporkWitch>
larger ones can often be more stable if docking large sections
<ThatOneGuy>
ritual sacrifice has not help unfortuanatley, iv'e killed like 30 kerbals
<ThatOneGuy>
Clamp-O-Tron, regular size
<SporkWitch>
maybe try using senior size and see if that helps
<SporkWitch>
i've also found that the Kerbal Joint Reinforcement mod helps a LOT with kraken attacks, not just noodly ships
<ThatOneGuy>
alright, and the 1st problem?
<packbart>
turning off reaction wheels on visiting vessels can also help. it all depends on the root cause
<ThatOneGuy>
okay thank you
<packbart>
SporkWitch: otoh, I found KJR to make matters worse for me
<ThatOneGuy>
wait, what is Kerbal Joint Reinforcement?
<SporkWitch>
most of my kraken attacks have been due to wobbling of some sort or another just accelerating and tearing itself apart.
<SporkWitch>
ThatOneGuy: do you have the persistent rotation mod?
<ThatOneGuy>
im on console
<SporkWitch>
nm then lol
<ThatOneGuy>
my bad, I should have led with that
<SporkWitch>
i've run into issues with that one when loading in or docking, sometimes, if that causes it to change the control point and persistent rotation tries to suddenly spin the craft to where it's supposed to have been pointing, causing it to tear itself apart heh
<SporkWitch>
not applicable on console, though
<ThatOneGuy>
But my modules just shake them selves out of their own fairing
<SporkWitch>
why are they still in fairings if you're at HKO?
<ThatOneGuy>
When I launch, and when Im still in the atmosphere
<SporkWitch>
fairings have weight, wanna drop those as soon as the air's thin enough (usually around 50km altitude)
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<ThatOneGuy>
In orbit, I just break the laws of relativity, its fine
<SporkWitch>
gotcha, so where the payload is mounted is too narrow and unstable
<ThatOneGuy>
actually, that may be the problem
<SporkWitch>
you have advanced tweakables enabled in the settings? Have you tried setting a couple of the payload parts to auto-strut to heaviest?
<SporkWitch>
if it's wobbling outside the fairing, that's absolutely the problem lol
<ThatOneGuy>
no, sometimes i experience problems with wobbling, and BOOMS
<ThatOneGuy>
But, I will take care of the attatchment joint problem
<SporkWitch>
yeah, it's unstable and so it wobbles until it tears itself apart. stock KSP is fairly wobbly and joints aren't very strong
<ThatOneGuy>
Thank you this has been very helpful
<SporkWitch>
auto-strut is your friend on this one, usually set it to heaviest. this will "lock" it to your fuel tanks, typically, and move it up as you separate stages
<SporkWitch>
it's a little cheaty, but i don't know anyone that actually sees it as cheating, because of the way the stock behaviour is, and manual struts all over the plcae not only add weight, but destroy aesthetics
<ThatOneGuy>
I usually use it on shuttles or "Arrow" craft as I call them
<ThatOneGuy>
and planes
<SporkWitch>
it's pretty much required for planes, or you can absurd amounts of wing flex heh
<ThatOneGuy>
no kidding
<ThatOneGuy>
I had a plane shrapenal itself quite a few times
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<ThatOneGuy>
anyone else here play on console?
<SporkWitch>
i doubt there's many; console version came out much later, and people without computers tend not to find or have any idea what IRC is heh
<ThatOneGuy>
I know what you mean, Its very hard to find people that play
<ThatOneGuy>
Here at school, Ive only found 2
<SporkWitch>
game's been around a long time and has largely been in maintenance mode for a couple years now, plus KSP2 is right around the corner (early access launch 24 February)
<ThatOneGuy>
I am stoked!
<SporkWitch>
you'll get some people dusting it off again to get ready, but many are also just waiting
<ThatOneGuy>
This has been such a wild ride, just with the updates on the process
<SporkWitch>
i know a few people at work that play, know a couple devs of other games that also play it still
<ThatOneGuy>
This game means alot to me, It help me express my love of physics and space
<ThatOneGuy>
I dont understand how people dont like it
<SporkWitch>
yeah, i'm looking forward to fiddling with the new procedural parts and interface updates, but i'll definitely be most excited for the first big patch; sandbox is all well and good for testing, but without science and contracts, it's not really enough to hold me.
<SporkWitch>
simple: it's challenging. Most people these days aren't looking for a challenge, they're looking for skinner boxes
<ThatOneGuy>
That makes sense
<ThatOneGuy>
I love its sandbox aspect
<SporkWitch>
heck, just look at some of the threads on KSP2's steam forums, begging for easy mode stuff to get them to orbit and other planets.
<ThatOneGuy>
no limits, no reprecussions, just you and space,
<ThatOneGuy>
Yeah, i got into an argument with someone over it
<ThatOneGuy>
FullMetalAnylast, I think
<SporkWitch>
that's part of why i don't like sandbox mode: constraints and consequences help generate goals, and structure the challenge.
<ThatOneGuy>
I like setting my own, and moving at my own pace, but everybody is different
<SporkWitch>
all well and good to just shout "moar boosters" and yeet something into space, but if you need to make the mission PROFITABLE that sets constraints and makes you have to think smarter
<SporkWitch>
oh, i definitely set my own, but i'm still constrained by what technologies i've unlocked, and funds to do it.
<ThatOneGuy>
yeah, i guess that does add a bit more challenge
<SporkWitch>
the science and career modes also have the advantage of not drowning you from the start. By easing you into a greater variety of parts, it's easier to pick things up. Same reason it can be hard to jump back into an MMO where you had a max level character but hadn't played in a year, having all those abilities and relearning is harder than starting a new character and slowly getting abilities
<SporkWitch>
back and learning in pieces
<ThatOneGuy>
I can see that
<ThatOneGuy>
I never thought of it like that
<ThatOneGuy>
I WAS harder learning in sanbox
<ThatOneGuy>
*It*
<SporkWitch>
it's actually something I had suggested for the proposed "certification" / "licensing" system Star Citizen was talking about possibly doing at one point, to allow piloting of larger / different types of ships. It's a way of breaking up the tutorials to prevent information overload. If your ship doesn't support docking with other ships, no need to teach you about it yet, for example. So you make
<SporkWitch>
the "license tests," functionally, the tutorial for the relevant functions that new class of ship needs you to understand.
<ThatOneGuy>
That
<ThatOneGuy>
is actually very smart
<SporkWitch>
yeah, and that was just stock lol; now picture heavily modded with a few hundred extra parts lol
<ThatOneGuy>
Is it fun playing with mods?
<SporkWitch>
yes. stock's still a lot of fun, don't get me wrong, but even if going for mostly stock, graphics mods make an insane difference, and there's lots of quality of life mods as well, to make information easier to access, allow for multiple quicksaves (default just overwrites the single quicksave, so you can screw yourself over), more precise control of maneuver node placement / adjustments, stuff
<SporkWitch>
like that
<ThatOneGuy>
Im hoping that KSP2 has console modding support, like SnowRunner
<SporkWitch>
one of my favourite QoL mods makes the tracking display into a collapsible tree structure, so if you have lots of stuff in space it's easier to manage, since things are grouped by the body whose SOI its in, moons are under their planets
<SporkWitch>
that will largely be up to microsoft, and they're not known for making many exceptions, though they occasionally make some.
<ThatOneGuy>
That is really usefull, especcialy if you use large craft with parts to come off for DV
<ThatOneGuy>
Yeah, Microsoft is not being cool right now
<SporkWitch>
i've never heard of ANY xbox game that had mod support, and there are very few with even cross-platform support (not counting PlayAnywhere, as that's actually still the xbone version of the game; actual cross-platform would be playing with the actual PC version)
<ThatOneGuy>
I know SnowRunner has it, and FarmingSimulator has it through mod.io
<ThatOneGuy>
WTF just happened
<SporkWitch>
but yeah, i wouldn't hold my breath. As popular as KSP is in certain circles, it just doesn't have the mainstream appeal that gets microsoft to make exceptions, like they did for FFXI back on the 360 (it's the ONLY 360 game that was allowed to use keyboard and mouse for controls, do an actual install to the HDD, and allow online play without XBL Gold)
<SporkWitch>
what?
<ThatOneGuy>
The link
<SporkWitch>
?
<ThatOneGuy>
Did I do that?
<SporkWitch>
what link?
<ThatOneGuy>
Mod.io
<ThatOneGuy>
THAT one
<SporkWitch>
that'll be on your IRC client's side
<ThatOneGuy>
oh
<SporkWitch>
it interpreted it as a link so it made it one
<ThatOneGuy>
thats neat
<SporkWitch>
mine will do it too, but it's a bit pickier and typically wants more in front of it (not sure, but it might require the protocol to be listed...)
<SporkWitch>
yeah, mine wants the protocol; no protocol, no link
<ThatOneGuy>
oh
<ThatOneGuy>
well, you have a wonderful day, thank you for the help, and for giving me someone to talk about KSP to for a few
<SporkWitch>
in any case, mods make a huge difference in the game. the stuff i mentioned is just QoL stuff and graphics, but the content mods can get insane. I typically play with KSP Interstellar Extended and Modular Kolonisation System. Adds tons of complex parts and systems to build full colonies, orbital construction of stuff from raw materials mined off-world, and lots of new resources
<SporkWitch>
also more advanced nuclear power generation and nuclear engines, that actually have different types of nuclear reactions, require managing heat, etc.
<SporkWitch>
np; people around here all the time, just be patient, IRC tends to be a slower pace of chat
<ThatOneGuy>
okeydokey
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<Althego>
kikkerikii
<Althego>
but it is too late
<Mat2ch>
it is?
<Althego>
21:21, late enough for me
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