UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fuchs. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, 1.7.x, 1.8.1, and 1.9.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<discord->
Damien. — @Sir Mortimer had a thought re: interesting experiments. Have you thought of adding an experiment/contract using atomic clocks to test gen relativity? https://physics.aps.org/articles/v11/s139
<discord->
Damien. — could be similar to your TV transponder whereby these experiments and the GPS satellites need an atomic clock part
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<discord->
egg. — @DRVeyl btw, since you appear to know about antennæ, do you know what characteristics of radar altimeters/SARs/transponders should be relevant?
<discord->
Butcher. — Hmm, my boss used to work on SARs. 🤔
<discord->
DRVeyl. — Relevant to.. what? Some basic stuff. The size and angular resolution are basically just the antenna properties. But I don't know eg how much scattering you'd expect from the target to know the sensitivity you need / effective range. Accuracy is basically your clock measuring round trip time.
<discord->
egg. — well, relevant to usability for various missions, and to constraining mission design, the context being KC design
<discord->
egg. — (also, what are the fundamentally different kinds of radioey things, and what just stems from different usage of the same devices, cf. the imager discussion yesterday)
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — Hi, I try last Fuchs release and I still have weird behavior with my rockets : it start to roll immediatly after liftoff.
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<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — Man told me that it was due to the #2519 issue, but as it has been marked solved for this release...
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — That's a screenshot that illustrates the issue : my rocket receives crazy inputs (bottom left corner). It's just roll input at beginning, but after a few time, all axis are impacted.
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — This is a new sandbox career i've created for the test
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — This is a new sandbox career i've created to test (edited)
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<discord->
egg. — if it receives strange roll inputs, as opposed to rolling on its own, that is the guidance being confused, not Principia
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<discord->
egg. — @Alwis Wennerstroem if it receives strange roll inputs, as opposed to rolling on its own, that is the guidance being confused, not Principia (edited)
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — Weird, I just test the same design with an new install from wich I've just removed principia and this issue disapeared
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — And i had no guidance engaged
<discord->
egg. — well *something* was telling your rocket to roll
<discord->
egg. — and that is not us
<discord->
egg. — we do not act upon the controls
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — I did a test without MJ, the effect was here
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — and I've not kos installed
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — which mod brings guidance? KER?
<discord->
egg. — no idea; I do not know what your setup is, or what causes it
<discord->
egg. — (honestly I cannot tell much from your screenshot, I do not even see the Principia UI since it is cropped)
<discord->
egg. — but I can tell that the control indicator that says *roulis* is cranked all the way to the right
<discord->
DRVeyl. — Don't think I know broadly enough how to answer fundamentally different kinds of radio-y things. Besides "communication" and "detection/range". The latter I don't really know, except you have the same kind of parts ideas: physical aperture/antenna, amplifier, filters, and receiver (encompassing tuning, sensitivity, and don't know if ranging cares about modulations/encodings or if that is comms spec
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — > Krash?
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — @egg Yes
<discord->
egg. — There are often weird issues with Krash. Can you reproduce the issue without using it?
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — > There are often weird issues with Krash. Can you reproduce the issue without using it?
<discord->
DRVeyl. — (Also the obvious: it is generally impossible to tell if craft control inputs are causing your craft behavior, or if they are a result of guidance responding to something changing your craft position/orientation)
<discord->
egg. — with the roll command wedged to the right like that, you either have a confused guidance mod, the E key held, or your stick wedged to the right :-p
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — > There are often weird issues with Krash. Can you reproduce the issue without using it?
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — @egg You mean with krash uninstalled, or just a test with a not-simulated flight?
<discord->
DRVeyl. — (So you effectively need to show a craft with no control inputs)
<discord->
egg. — (or maybe you are trimmed all the way in roll-right, that would also give us the same screenshot :-p)
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — > with the roll command wedged to the right like that, you either have a confused guidance mod, the E key held, or your stick wedged to the right :-p
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — @egg I reproduced it without MJ uninstalled and with my joystick unplugged
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — and with hands-up 😄
<discord->
DRVeyl. — HOffTAS!
<discord->
egg. — I don’t know what is commanding that roll ; but Principia *does not* issue control inputs, so you are going to have to figure out which system is doing that
<discord->
egg. — (trim is a possibility, if you did some Alt+E for some reason)
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — But how can you explain that when I uninstall principia, the issue disappears?
<discord->
egg. — no idea?
<discord->
egg. — maybe you are not actually starting from the same setup when you retry without Principia, maybe there *is* some guidance reacting to something, maybe you are not using the Principia version you think you are...
<discord->
DRVeyl. — Egg is saying launch without control inputs or guidance with and without principia and show the difference.
<discord->
egg. — but the issue here is that we have control inputs and we don’t even know where they are coming from
<discord->
egg. — so figure out which thing is issuing that input, and get rid of it
<discord->
egg. — (for all I know your joystick might issue hard-roll-right when unplugged; I know nothing about your setup and I am not in the business of debugging it. But if you have control inputs, the thing issuing them is not Principia, so you need to get rid of them to figure out if there is something going on)
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — So, I just have done tests again, without encounter this issue :-(
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — I don't understand what happens here, but I first noticed that MJ becames crazy and, you were agree, that this should come from the Principia's issue I've mentioned before.
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — I've noticed that after to have re-installed MJ, the issue disappeared for a few times. This was not the case today.
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — Trust me, I do not want to lose your time.
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — So I suspect an issue during the loading of the game in the background that break something, maybe related to my joystick, but I've reproduced my problem after to have unplugged it and reconfigure my inputs.
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — I weird bug for sure, and I'm sure to encounter it again...
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — Thank for your help, and for you great job also. This is an amazing stuff you're doing here.
<discord->
egg. — @Alwis Wennerstroem I suspect you have issues that, while leading to similar issues « control weirdness during ascent », are completely unrelated. MJ going crazy with Fubini was probably 2519 (because 2519 was tumbling your rocket). Today’s issue of controls stuck to maximum deflection sounds like either your joystick being weird, or accidentally trimming your roll, or something like that
<discord->
egg. — @Alwis Wennerstroem I suspect you have issues that, while leading to similar behaviour « control weirdness during ascent », are completely unrelated. MJ going crazy with Fubini was probably 2519 (because 2519 was tumbling your rocket). Today’s issue of controls stuck to maximum deflection sounds like either your joystick being weird, or accidentally trimming your roll, or something like that (ed
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — Yes, maybe an issue during the initialization of the device, something like that, or maybe it is unreachable while it's still configured as input, so that i get random inputs.
<discord->
Alwis Wennerstroem. — I made a 3 months break in my career due to this 😭
<discord->
egg. — well, launch failures due to wedged controls are a thing :D
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Techniclly i can read French, but i can't understand French speaking
<discord->
Standecco. — ```Troposphere 5 carrying a rat named Kavira on board, was designed to reach an altitude of 36 km and a speed of Mach 3.[1] The rocket was launched at Menkao launch site.[6] Launch ended in failure - the rocket took off but had deviated from its course and was lost in the distance.[2] The cost of this rocket has been estimated at about $50,000. Despite Troposphere 5 being equipped with an escape
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<discord->
Sir Mortimer. — Plot twist: the rat survived with half its face burned off and plans to gain world domination for revenge
<discord->
Standecco. — in the end, he is defeated by an actual bat
<discord->
egg. — is the bat @Pteropodidae
<discord->
Myshiko. — @Alwis Wennerstroem please, use RCS Build Aid mod to check for the presence of the rotational forces in VAB. Some engines produce asymmetric thrust.
<discord->
egg. — @Myshiko I don’t think that was the issue here though, since the bottom-left control indicators reported control input ; since the issue resolved itself, stuck joystick/trim seems to have been the answer
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<discord->
Sir Mortimer. — Jammed ailerons have been known to cause death and destruction
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<discord->
Butcher. — Always carry a sidearm to unjam ailerons.
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<discord->
Pteropodidae. — *I'm Megabatman*
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* discord-
egg. — pokes @bofh453, who claims to be able to into the antennæ_
<discord->
bofh453. — i am reading backlog, just a moment
<discord->
egg. — @bofh453 so the question is « can radioey things (transponders, radar altimeters, SARs, &c.) be reduced to a small-dimensional space (or, if you have things that are truly different, a few spaces) and what would the basis of characteristics that determine mission applicability & requirements be »
<discord->
egg. — (where for imagers preliminary investigation suggests that we can get away with {apertures, fields of view, sets of wavelengths})
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2588: Add support for transmitting the status's message to the C# code - https://git.io/Jf2eq
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2588: Add support for transmitting the status's message to the C# code - https://git.io/Jf2eq
<discord->
bofh453. — i mean it's sort of the same here. you're concerned with sets of wavelengths and antenna radiation patterns
<discord->
bofh453. — the latter roughtly corresponding to aperture + field of view, just a bit more complex in theory, but in practise for space stuff most things seem to use either an omnidirectional dipole boom or a parabolic reflector for even SAR stuff
<discord->
bofh453. — like i'm still reading the docs on Magellan right now so give me a moment
<discord->
slome. — Does anyone know how to keep a fixed solar panel aligned with the sun with principia? I have been trying to do this for hours now.
<discord->
egg. — spin-stabilization is the way to go
<discord->
slome. — No simple way like with persistent rotation then?
<discord->
slome. — Ok, so spin stabilisation it is.
<discord->
egg. — like a record
<discord->
slome. — I'ts a bit of a shame though. I just started a new career with principia for the first time. And it seems some things that really should be possible are not now.
<discord->
slome. — like keeping the orientiation a a space station the same
<discord->
egg. — indeed, or having a satellite in GEO, as I allude to in that reply; stationkeeping & attitude-keeping are messy problems.
<discord->
egg. — otoh, it opens up possibilities within the realm of stable orbits that are simply not there in stock (sun-synchronous orbits, orbits stabilized by J2, Lagrange points, etc.)
<discord->
bofh453. — @egg moment
<discord->
siimav. — Is there a hack similar to the hack gravity but for unloaded vessels?
<discord->
slome. — Thats why I installed it. Might be better to play rp-1 career without it maybe.
<discord->
slome. — and just have an install for sandbox mission
<discord->
egg. — @siimav nope
<discord->
DRVeyl. — Is there a slightly less hacked solution that just accepts the current angular momentum is "close enough" to 0 to be willing to round values to 0?
<discord->
egg. — the hack is a hack tbh; it is useful for testing/debugging, and may be useful as an escape hatch, but it is definitely not intended as a common course of action
<discord->
egg. — (note that once you put things on rails, if you unload them, they will stay in whatever state they were, in particular if they did not spin they will not)
<discord->
DRVeyl. — (Folks seem to be trying to combat other systems that accept "angular rate is low enough, we won't try to fire thrusters for another physics tick to get closer")
<discord->
DRVeyl. — (Folks seem to be trying to combat other systems that accept "angular velocity is low enough, we won't try to fire thrusters for another physics tick to get closer") (edited)
<discord->
lpg. — note that at least with kerbalism, unloaded vessels preserve their last sun orientation until re-loaded
<discord->
egg. — @DRVeyl might be a possibility (combined with SAS to enable that behaviour), see the last paragraph of my reply.
<discord->
e​gg. — On the other hand, you quickly end up wanting things like stabilizing orientation in a particular frame (e.g., a space station should be fixed in the LVLH frame), so this gets logically messy: SAS is tied to the plotting frame right now. Do we want to change the attitude-keeping behaviour if you look at your trajectory in a different way? We do off-warp right now, but there you immediately notice itâ€
<discord->
lpg. — (and without kerbalism, well, unloaded vessels consume nothing, so it doesn't matter? or will the catch-up mechanic screw you when you come back?)
<discord->
egg. — @lpg loaded packed vessels might be an issue here though: they spin but exist
<discord->
DRVeyl. — ... I see that I indeed did not look below the separator bar in your response. :/
<discord->
egg. — @bofh453 what is your thought on the actual game design question at hand though
<discord->
DRVeyl. — And yeah, I recognize that "0 in what intended frame" is a valid question, because folks will indeed expect some frame options 😉
<discord->
egg. — (namely, whether a random TV transponder can be repurposed as a SAR, and what properties characterize its performance in either role)
<discord->
slome. — > note that at least with kerbalism, unloaded vessels preserve their last sun orientation until re-loaded
<discord->
slome. — @lpg
<discord->
slome. — that solves everything for me
<discord->
slome. — for this mission at least
<discord->
egg. — tbh designing spin-stabilized craft is fun, too
<discord->
slome. — spin stabilisation is almost a must in rp-0 at the star I find
<discord->
slome. — start
<discord->
slome. — just did a couple of spin stabilised moon inpactor mission
<discord->
slome. — s
<discord->
slome. — but with a huge solar panel on one side of a corona type sattelite it's not easy to do this.
<discord->
slome. — but with a huge solar panel on one side of a corona type satellite it's not easy to do this. (edited)
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — quick question
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — if i want to spin stablize a probe to face prograde at the moon, just plot it in MCI and orient to the node on the navball and spin stabilize?
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — if i want to spin stabilize a probe to face prograde at the moon, just plot it in MCI and orient to the node on the navball and spin stabilize? (edited)
<discord->
egg. — spin stabilization is in an inertially fixed direction
<discord->
egg. — so there is no such thing as spin-stabilizing in the prograde direction; as the prograde direction turns, your angular momentum will not follow
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — so, do i set the manuever as intertialy fixed?
<discord->
egg. — you have a manœuvre?
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — Yes
<discord->
egg. — then yes
<discord->
bofh453. — @egg a few moments, i'm still trying to make sense of how to model antenna patterns most sanely
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — Alright, cause this probe has no way to orient itself at the moon for insertion so I want the TLI stage to orient it correctly for when it gets to the moon
<discord->
egg. — in general, if you have no way to orient yourself, you have to check inertially-fixed
<discord->
egg. — if you do not check it, you have to guide while burning
<discord->
egg. — to quote the concepts page:
<discord->
egg. — > Checking Inertially fixed is useful for spin stabilized burns where your vessel keeps pointing in a fixed direction during the burn. This needs to be checked even if the burn is modeled as Instant Impulse, because the latter isn't really instant but just very short.
<discord->
egg. — (looks like that paragraph was contributed by @Mike)
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — ah okay
<discord->
RurouniDonut. — im still not really sure what instant impulse or inertialy fixed completely mean but thanks :)))