raptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fréchet. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, and 1.7.x. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
<discord-_> D​amien. — The tricky bit is returning the sample return capsule and then sending genesis back to EML1
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<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Hey, can I ask you Principia lot about performance? Quite a few people have told me that Principia isn't "that" performance-taxing, or that it doesn't affect their fps "that much."
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — However, this certainly hasn't been the case for me. Even on highest tolerance, shortest time, and fewest steps, I get 15-20fps (down from 30-40, higher if the camera is aimed up). I'd *really* like to run the mod, but I find the performance is pretty bad.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Could I be having some sort of issue? What do you recommend deleting/optimising to make Principia viable?
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<discord-_> A​cer_Saccharum. — I only run in to slowdowns when I'm either running at the second-highest time warp level, or I've just increased the amount of prediction steps or prediction length
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Acer_Saccharum
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — 1) I use Better Time Warp, so second-highest level doesn't mean much to me (unless you also use the default hyper warp included with BTW)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — 2) Yeah, like I said, it's on the border of playable for me at the least-taxing settings for everything
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<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ I run on i9 9900k@4.9Ghz + 1080ti and I don’t really feel that much of a Principia performance impact. What hardware do you run?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ I run on i9 9900k@4.9Ghz + 1080ti + 4k monitor and 16k textures and I don’t really feel that much of a Principia performance impact. What hardware do you run? (edited)
<discord-_> A​cer_Saccharum. — Just for reference as well, I don't have any major performance issues on my Laptop
<discord-_> A​cer_Saccharum. — Which is certainly weaker than those specs
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I recall also from the prio chats that number of vessels and debris should preferably be O(number of CPU threads), so piling up thousands of debris pieces there not exactly a wise idea.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I recall also from the prio chats that number of vessels and debris should preferably be O(number of CPU threads), so piling up thousands of debris pieces not exactly a wise idea. (edited)
<discord-_> n​ewtype_. — anyone have tips for planning assists and whatnot - im using stock and noticed that I can get to Eve & Moho without any sort of mission planning but Duna is a pain in the ass and my Kerbin flybys aren't doing anything to change my orbit -_-
<discord-_> n​ewtype_. — anyway dm me if you got interplanetary xfer tips RSS relevant stuff is fine but i'm not using it
<discord-_> n​ewtype_. — (i could just pick a better time to get to duna but that takes the fun out of using complicated trajectories)
<discord-_> D​amien. — @newtype_ I find assists tough too. You're probably passing the other body in the same direction it's moving so you don't get a boost.
<discord-_> D​amien. —
<discord-_> D​amien. —
<discord-_> D​amien. — Doing a kerbin-kerbin where you encounter it at the same angle it's moving doesn't give you a boost. you need to encounter it earlier or later in its orbit so you can come in at a different angle, curve round it and leave with extra velocity in its prograde direction. The issue I find with principia is that you can't use the camera to orient your exit trajectory along the body's orbit line.
<discord-_> D​amien. — In stock physics a version of that body at intercept is drawn on the map which you can use to line up your trajectory with the patched conics orbit line.
<discord-_> D​amien. — In principia the body is always drawn where it is now, and if you switch to the centred inertial frame to have a similar view to stock, the direction of the trajectories in that frame have no relevance to the trajectory in the sun centred frame. There's clearly a way of doing it but we're too entrenched in the stock system to do it without completely relearning how it works.
<discord-_> D​amien. — @newtype_ I find assists tough too. You're probably passing the other body in the same direction it's moving so you don't get a boost.
<discord-_> D​amien. —
<discord-_> D​amien. — Doing a kerbin-kerbin where you encounter it at the same angle it's moving doesn't give you a boost. you need to encounter it earlier or later in its orbit so you can come in at a different angle, curve round it and leave with extra velocity in its prograde direction. The issue I find with principia is that you can't use the camera to orient your exit trajectory along the body's orbit line.
<discord-_> D​amien. — In stock physics a version of that body at intercept is drawn on the map which you can use to line up your trajectory with the patched conics orbit line.
<discord-_> D​amien. — In principia the body is always drawn where it is now, and if you switch to the centred inertial frame to have a similar view to stock, the direction of the trajectories in that frame have no relevance to the trajectory in the sun centred frame.
<discord-_> D​amien. — There's clearly a way of doing it but we're too entrenched in the stock system to do it without completely relearning how it works. (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — there was a previous discussion about it here where @egg banged his head against @Kurgut's and my ignorance which might be helpful. Where we asked for ghost bodies like in stock encounters and he told us to go boil our heads https://discordapp.com/channels/319857228905447436/480397772248580098/573969644399099904
<discord-_> D​amien. — @newtype_ I find assists tough too. You're probably passing the other body in the same direction it's moving so you don't get a boost.
<discord-_> D​amien. —
<discord-_> D​amien. — Doing a kerbin-kerbin where you encounter it at the same angle it's moving doesn't give you a boost. you need to encounter it earlier or later in its orbit so you can come in at a different angle, curve round it and leave with extra velocity in its prograde direction. The issue I find with principia is that you can't use the camera to orient your exit trajectory along the body's orbit line.
<discord-_> D​amien. — In stock physics a ghost version of that body at intercept is drawn on the map which you can use to line up your trajectory with the patched conics orbit line.
<discord-_> D​amien. — In principia the body is always drawn where it is now, and if you switch to the centred inertial frame to have a similar view to stock, the direction of the trajectories in that frame have no relevance to the trajectory in the sun centred frame.
<discord-_> D​amien. — There's clearly a way of doing it but we're too entrenched in the stock system to do it without completely relearning how it works. (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — @_felixu_ what CPU do you have? I don't have many issues with principia at reasonable settings on my i7-6700k but I have just reenabled my winter overclock settings to squeeze that extra performance out when I'm planning max tolerance flight plans
<discord-_> D​amien. — @_felixu_ what CPU do you have? I don't have many issues with principia at reasonable settings on my i7-6700k but I have just reenabled my winter overclock settings to squeeze that extra performance out when I'm planning min tolerance flight plans (edited)
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<discord-_> D​amien. — @Profiremu23
<discord-_> D​amien. — I might have more but that's what's in my downloads folder from recently
<discord-_> D​amien. — also, just to go full nerd, I bought a gyroscope to play with. it arrived today.
<discord-_> D​amien. — I used to have one as a kid and I always thought they were the coolest thing
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — I'm always looking for nerdy toys.
<discord-_> D​amien. — this nerdy enough for you? https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=CMGMK2
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — I'm more old school 😛
<discord-_> D​amien. — lol
<discord-_> D​amien. — dangerous site to find. I spent enough on this gyro
<discord-_> D​amien. — lol nice
<discord-_> D​amien. — I need a shelf to fill with cool things, and my space lego
<discord-_> D​amien. — I built that lego ISS the other day but haven't found a home for it
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — I need this
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — 329 euros
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — thieves!
<discord-_> D​amien. — ikr
<discord-_> D​amien. — cool though
<discord-_> D​amien. — ooh they sell aerogel
<discord-_> D​amien. — out of stock though
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — I even have a steam engine somewhere
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — haven't been using it for about 20 years
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — But I'm sure it would still run 🙂
<discord-_> D​amien. — I was looking for that reaction wheel cube thing that videos were going around about
<discord-_> D​amien. — still not available to us plebs though
<discord-_> D​amien. — you'd have to build one yourself
<kmath> YouTube - The Cubli: a cube that can jump up, balance, and 'walk'
<discord-_> D​amien. — now that's cool
<discord-_> F​alcon. — Has anyone that we know of in Principia done a mission like MESSENGER
<discord-_> F​alcon. — Because im planning to do it
<discord-_> D​amien. — no but it looks interesting https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/MESSENGER_trajectory.svg
<discord-_> D​amien. — no but it looks interesting https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Traj73004_helio_ecldto_52005.jpg (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — have you done any gravity assists in principia @Falcon ?
<discord-_> F​alcon. — yes
<discord-_> F​alcon. — Jupiter to Neptune
<discord-_> F​alcon. — will take forever for that mission to Conclude
<discord-_> F​alcon. — but it is what it is
<discord-_> F​alcon. — i understand the basics of what i need to do for the gravity assists at earth, Venus and Mercury
<discord-_> D​amien. — I never really learned gravity assists in the stock system (although I understand the concept) so trying to learn them in principia is a nightmare for me so far
<discord-_> F​alcon. — I was going to launch at a Venus transfer window, get my orbit perigee down to venus, use venus to pull the Apoapsis down and start killing the energy, you have to set an orbital resonance as well
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah the concept makes sense, it's the execution
<discord-_> F​alcon. — yup
<discord-_> D​amien. — when looking at the principia UI it's not the simplest to visualise
<discord-_> F​alcon. — its why my spacecraft is going to have a lot of fuel
<discord-_> F​alcon. — my Spacecraft is about 2600 kg
<discord-_> F​alcon. — 4000 m/s
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<discord-_> F​alcon. — so it will be able to be foriving
<discord-_> F​alcon. — so it will be able to be forgiving (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — in the stock system you can use the ghost body and can see your target centered and sun centered trajectories at the same timer
<discord-_> D​amien. — in the stock system you can use the ghost body and can see your target centered and sun centered trajectories at the same time (edited)
<discord-_> F​alcon. — im also launching this mission in 1971/72 at some point
<discord-_> D​amien. — principia is just spaghetti
<discord-_> F​alcon. — i have already launched a simulated rocket and messed around with it all
<discord-_> D​amien. — if you can pull it off consistently, you should document it
<discord-_> D​amien. — a guide for the rest of us 😄
<discord-_> F​alcon. — i will try!
<discord-_> F​alcon. — the history will look neat when i scroll back 1500 days
<discord-_> D​amien. — I was hoping Reach would make some uncut versions of his insane videos but he cuts out nearly all of the trajectory planning
<discord-_> F​alcon. — i know its going to be really tricky
<discord-_> F​alcon. — just like an orbiter out at Jupiter
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<discord-_> F​alcon. — or any probe in the outer solar system
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > I recall also from the prio chats that number of vessels and debris should preferably be O(number of CPU threads), so piling up thousands of debris pieces not exactly a wise idea.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko I always set it to under 15 and then I find it's reset itself!
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > @_felixu_ I run on i9 9900k@4.9Ghz + 1080ti + 4k monitor and 16k textures and I don’t really feel that much of a Principia performance impact. What hardware do you run?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko mid 2014 i7 at 2.5ghz (iirc), running KSP at slightly above 1080p (the ratios are a bit weird. My display is 2K). The key thing here might be that I'm on a laptop, and a MacBook pro at that. I have 16gb DDR3 RAM and a dedicated graphics card, though
<discord-_> F​alcon. — i do wonder what MESSENGERs initial orbit would have been had it launched on something more powerful than a Delta II
<discord-_> F​alcon. — that orbit it was initially in was probably all it could muster tbh
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — are there any tricks for letting MechJeb execute maneuver nodes?
<discord-_> D​amien. — there's used to be the 'make node as instant impulse, add to navball, close principia, execute node with MJ' trick but i don't know if it still works
<discord-_> D​amien. — there used to be the 'make node as instant impulse, add to navball, close principia, execute node with MJ' trick but i don't know if it still works (edited)
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — ok
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — thanks
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — hypothetical question
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — if, for some reason, Principia would allocate so much memory that it crashes the game - how would I be able to tell if it was indeed principia?
<discord-_> D​amien. — you'd suggest it was principia then egg would explain to you in detail exactly why it isn't with proof
<discord-_> D​amien. — that is the egg way
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — k
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — well it's not more than a suspicion at this point
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — that's why I would like to know what proof would HYPOTHETICALLY look like
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — because something is crashing my game on a regular basis, and principia is one of the more complex pieces of software in the install
<discord-_> D​RVeyl. — Or if Pricipia did cause the crash, it would generate a fatal log.
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — I don't have those
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — a mug of hot coffee is enough to power the thing
<discord-_> D​amien. — what are you beeping?
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — that's a toy metal detector. just making sure it didn't turn into plastic.
<discord-_> D​amien. — lol
<discord-_> D​amien. — I took my gyroscope downstairs to where my gf was working and flexed my science swag with the 'holding the gyroscope sideways on a string' trick but she told me to go away
<discord-_> D​amien. — clearly isn't cool enough to get it
<discord-_> D​amien. — something about 'I'm on a conference call, I'm glad you have time to play when you should be working too'
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — I wonder if that thing would survive the tender care of a 7 year old
<discord-_> D​amien. — my gyro? it highly suggests not dropping it because of precision bearings so I'd say no
<discord-_> D​amien. — that being said you can get a repair kit
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ please, delete debris and unused vessels manually from time to time in tracking station.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko Yeah, I do that already. Short of deleting graphics mods and deleting TU and turning render quality to minimum, there's nothing more I can do. Unless, of course, I'm missing something. Again, i would REALLY REALLY love to be able to run Principia
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — 2014 MacBook Pro is a good machine for light work, but KSP is indeed a heavy burden for it.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Fair enough
<discord-_> D​amien. — @_felixu_ it's new rig time
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ imho, all possible improvements involve money investments
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I'd love 700 dollars on a great rig. Maybe next year
<discord-_> s​iimav. — In the Apple ecosystem you need more like 7000 dollars
<discord-_> D​amien. — mine's an i7 6700k @ 4.6, 32gb (recently upgraded from 16gb because ram was cheap) and a 1080
<discord-_> D​amien. — mine's an i7 6700k @ 4.6, 32gb (recently upgraded from 16gb because ram was cheap) and a 1080gtx (edited)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Well, this is a bad year sadly for earning money - too much covid interference
<discord-_> D​amien. — on the plus side prices of consumer hardware should fall
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @siimav I'm not mental. My brain is functioning. If I have spare 700 dollars, of course I'm gonna spend them on a Windows setup 🙂
<discord-_> D​amien. — $700 is conveniently the price of some mac pro wheels
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Oh perfect! There go my gaming pc plans lol
<discord-_> D​amien. — haha
<discord-_> D​amien. — I saw a video the other day of someone that got them, and their pc rolls around on the uneven floor
<discord-_> D​amien. — the wheels don't lock 😄
<discord-_> A​cer_Saccharum. — The wheels make your computer faster, buying them is surely a no-brainer
<discord-_> A​cer_Saccharum. — The wheels make your computer go faster, buying them is surely a no-brainer (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Can't believe I ever thought a 2080 ti would be better than wheels. Sliding my macbook around my desk will really immerse me in the gamee
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Can't believe I ever thought a 2080 ti would be better than wheels. Sliding my macbook around my desk will really immerse me in the game (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Especially when turning on descent mode 🙂
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — To summarise, Principia should run fine on RSS with a mid-range setup, right?
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah
<discord-_> D​amien. — as always, CPU is king
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I can't figure out what's wrong with my macbook, though. The thermals? The DDR3 RAM?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — MacOS?
<discord-_> D​amien. — it's apple, it won't work right unless you're force feeding money and dongles into every port on a continuous basis
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — The only thing I dislike about windows is the non-inverted scroll
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I expect the content to follow my finger, not the scroll wheel
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Apparently you used to be able to change it in settings, but not anymore. Is this true?
<discord-_> D​amien. — I think you still can
<discord-_> D​amien. — I'm having a google
<discord-_> D​amien. — it used to be in settings, now it's a regedit edit
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I did that on my dualbooted Windows and I had to reinstall 😦
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I'm not really using Windows because games complain about not enough VRAM, so I have to run them off a hard drive. What's the point anymore?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Anyway...
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Keep posting those insane n-body manoeuvres, I love them
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ I found that i7 7700k plus 980 TI and 32 GB DDR4 works reasonably well with full RP-1 setup
<discord-_> D​amien. — will do. I'm apprehensive about posting them here though because I'm not currently playing RO
<discord-_> D​amien. — been posting them on the kerbalism discord
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ I found that i7 7700k plus 980 TI and 32 GB DDR4 works reasonably well with full RP-1 setup and Principia (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — can't really put them in #missionreports
<discord-_> D​amien. — people get salty
<discord-_> D​amien. — I just post the academic stuff here
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > @_felixu_ I found that i7 7700k plus 980 TI and 32 GB DDR4 works reasonably well with full RP-1 setup and Principia
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko Yeah, I'm capping my initial budget at $700 so your i7 is out of the question
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — But that's good to know
<discord-_> D​amien. — what's a 6700k cost now?
<discord-_> D​amien. — that's what I've got
<discord-_> s​iimav. — Probably still more than a brand new AMD 3300x which outperforms the 6700 by a fair bit.
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah I've noticed AMD has taken top spot since I last built
<discord-_> D​amien. — good on them
<discord-_> D​amien. — it'd be nice to get an AMD. not had once since the Athlon64
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I would look at the AMD as well, but heavily used Intel is actually not bad, if you can find something dirt cheap
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > Probably still more than a brand new AMD 3300x which outperforms the 6700 by a fair bit.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @siimav Only $120! Definitely withing range, thanks
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — optimising this build is pretty comparable to RP-1 tbh 😁
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — A boatload of compromises
<discord-_> D​amien. — have a play around on here https://pcpartpicker.com/list/
<discord-_> D​amien. — have a play around on here <https://pcpartpicker.com/list/> (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I was just about to go on there! It's great, yeah
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — While you are shopping around, you might want to try increasing fan speeds in your MacBook Pro
<discord-_> D​amien. — so it flies away and he can claim on insurance and get a good one?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I love simulated jet sound when playing planes in KSP
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — MacBook Pro does twin turbo jet perfectly
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — The m happy owner of 2014 MacBook Pro, btw
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Oh come on, I love playing the fan on my MacBook Pro! As a bonus, KSP boots up quietly in the background too
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > The m happy owner of 2014 MacBook Pro, btw
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko Wait really? What specs?
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — @Myshiko wow, you've got a new one then 🙂 mine is from 2012
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — ("mine")
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — And you two both run Principia fine?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I'm very curious now
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I keep hoping I'm doing something wrong
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — no. i stopped playing KSP on this one. The fans are just too loud.
<discord-_> D​amien. — it's painful to see hard working devs working on frankly abysmal rigs
<discord-_> D​amien. — get those donation links up lads
<discord-_> S​ir Mortimer. — hey, that's the only way to detect performance bottlenecks early in the process. you'll notice first, and it guarantees that you *will* notice 🙂
<discord-_> D​amien. — I'm pretty sure @egg is working on a ti84 calculator at the moment
<discord-_> D​amien. — taped to a personal organiser from the 80's
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ top 2014 MacBook Pro Retina
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ top 2014 MacBook Pro Retina with NViDIA card (edited)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ I don’t run Principia on it, or KSP in general - no point.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @Damien I have the rig, does not mean I work on it. Or play on it. The work has changed.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — And the machine is not evil enough to serve all the powers of darkness that is now needed.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Sir Mortimer it's *tonnes* better on 1.8.1 on my 2014 MacBook Pro. Fan doesn't even really get going until the game has already loaded!
<discord-_> D​amien. — my gaming rig is currently my office work rig because I'm working from home
<discord-_> D​amien. — stole an extra screen from the office so now I'm triple screening it like a pro
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — is there any way to obtain orbital paremeters of celestials?
<discord-_> D​amien. — dangerous question
<discord-_> D​amien. — egg's going to come in here and tell us why that's not a simple answer
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — for example RAAN
<discord-_> D​amien. — RAAN of which part of its orbit?
<discord-_> D​amien. — they change and precess
<discord-_> D​amien. — you can get your real orbit stats from the orbit analyser
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — let's define it in the same way as the "Orbit Analysis" is defined
<discord-_> D​amien. — but other bodies' I'm not sure
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — orbit analysis for celestials would already be a start
<discord-_> D​amien. — I can't see it being a massive issue to add to the analyser tbh
<discord-_> D​amien. — but I'm not a dev so I'm going to bow out
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — basically, I just want a nicer way to time transfers
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — because so far, I'm using the Principia window as a ruler and guesstimation and my main tools
<discord-_> D​amien. — accurate transfer planning is the holy grail of principia
<discord-_> D​amien. — I'd have hoped KSPTOT could be what we needed but from what I've read it's not accurate because of principia's rotation
<discord-_> D​amien. — KSPTOT assumes the stock system of positioning/rotation even with RSS bodies
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — i have tried and failed to use KSPTOT
<discord-_> D​amien. — it's buried in the KSPTOT thread somewhere
<discord-_> D​amien. — it'd need some work between egg and arrowstar I imagine
<discord-_> D​amien. — it does handle n-body coasts now though
<discord-_> D​amien. — which is a start
<discord-_> D​amien. — so probably fine for stock/principia games
<discord-_> D​amien. — I'll have to look into it for JNSQ
<discord-_> D​amien. — could be a good learning experience
<egg|cell|egg> I think arrowstar's reference frame handling is just confused
<discord-_> D​amien. — there he is 😄
<discord-_> D​amien. — always watching
<egg|cell|egg> It's too easy, you said egg
<discord-_> D​amien. — gonna use 366 from now on
<discord-_> D​amien. — if his handling is confused, is it confused by a fixed amount?
<discord-_> D​amien. — something that could be corrected for
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — This is me right now
<discord-_> D​amien. — because being able to plan missions in ksptot for princpia would be amazing
<discord-_> D​amien. — I tried the gmat tutorials but that's way above my intelligence level and i wouldn't even know how to get the info in and out of ksp
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — I would dare to say that GMAT is above most KSP players skill level
<discord-_> D​amien. — it was fun to play with but that's about it
<discord-_> D​amien. — ksptot is about the max level I could handle though
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — well did you get results out?
<discord-_> D​amien. — no, I was just doing the tutorials
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — kk
<discord-_> D​amien. — I have attention span issues according to my other half. I go full ham on a subject, learn a load about it in a few weeks then drop it
<discord-_> K​obymaru. — it's just one of those things that would make sense if KSP was my main job. Playing for a bit for relaxation after work - not so much
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<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Actually, speaking of automating/planning Principia manoevres, what's the situation? Can you plot a manoevre from MechJeb, copy it manually into the Principia editor, and go from there? I assume that would be at least useful for knowing the position in your orbit where you should make the manoevre. Or do you do it all manually? How long does it take to transfer to Mars, say?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Actually, speaking of automating/planning Principia manoevres, what's the situation? Can you plot a manoevre from MechJeb, copy it manually into the Principia editor, and go from there? I assume that would be at least useful for knowing the position in your orbit where you should make the manoevre. Or do you do it all manually? How long does it take to plot a transfer to Mars, say? (edited)
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2566 commit - https://git.io/Jf89Q
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2566 commit - https://git.io/Jf897
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2566 commit - https://git.io/Jf895
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2566 commit - https://git.io/Jf89d
<discord-_> D​amien. — I don't automate it personally. Transfer window planner for a rough launch date then manually do the flight plan
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy labeled issue #2562: KSP 1.8.1 - Aerodynamic issue with Principia and FAR - https://git.io/Jfc9K
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy labeled issue #2562: KSP 1.8.1 - Aerodynamic issue with Principia and FAR - https://git.io/Jfc9K
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #2562: KSP 1.8.1 - Aerodynamic issue with Principia and FAR - https://git.io/Jf89j
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien And dV is comparable to automating the manoevre with patched conics?
<discord-_> D​amien. — I've never automated a maneuver so can't comment
<discord-_> D​amien. — I only automate accents
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Well, then just comparable to patched conics 🙂
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — No automation
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yeah more or less
<discord-_> D​amien. — Less if you're clever and use n-body tricks
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Right, sounds great
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — What sort of tricks are we talking about? basic tricks, not "spending-an-hour-in-front-of-the-planner" tricks
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yeah, reading astrodynamics papers tricks 🤖
<discord-_> D​amien. — I didn't did this but I highly recommend practicing transfers etc in stock
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I really need to spend some time and make “real n-body tools” to plan RSS + Principia missions for me. There are some really nice NASA tools.
<discord-_> D​amien. — I didn't do this but I highly recommend practicing transfers etc in stock (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien Practice manual manoeuvres?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I really need to spend some time and make “real world n-body tools” to plan RSS + Principia missions for me. There are some really nice NASA tools. (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — One you get the hang unlike using the principia UI in stock for the major milestones you can bring those skills back to RO where you're restricted
<discord-_> D​amien. — One you get the hang of using the principia UI in stock for the major milestones you can bring those skills back to RO where you're restricted (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — ohh principia in stock
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yeah
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — *that my computer had no issues with*
<discord-_> D​amien. — With overpowered reaction wheels and throttlable engines etc you can focus on learning principia
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @Damien I highly recommend NOT to practice in stock
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Stock does not punish enough for mistakes
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — So, one can do horrible things and still think he is doing fine
<discord-_> D​amien. — Do all the major milestones (transfer to moons etc, land, orbital rendezvous, interplanetary transfer)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > overpowered reaction wheels and throttlable engines etc
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien yeah, not keeping those. throttle limiter, some .dll file that nerfs reaction wheels by 100x, and other mods. If I do a stock/JNSQ install, it'll be as pseudo-RP1 as I can possibly make it *without* actual RP-1
<discord-_> D​amien. — @Myshiko principia in stock works just like RSS. He's practicing flight planning that's all
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Fly in RSS from Baykonur, and in no time you would be ready to go to NASA
<discord-_> D​amien. — I started principia in RP1 and it hindered me learning
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @Damien what to learn there? Just burn prograde 🙂
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I had exactly opposite experience - stock is not a learning tool.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I bet watching that pink line curving around to a free return trajectory is *satisfying*
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Yes, it is.
<discord-_> D​amien. — I'd played for a long time and learned a lot. But if your RP1 game takes a long time to get to things like interplanetary then that's time you're not learning
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Agains, delta v requirements is stock are so low, one near always muscles the way without thinking. In RSS you are required to think, otherwise you are getting nowhere.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > I had exactly opposite experience - stock is not a learning tool.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko THANK YOU! It is to a certain extent, but when YouTubers say "let's beat the Saturn V" or "better than NASA!" Or when they try to simulate real rockets in stock while explaining details about them that are really only applicable to the real solar system, it's a bit cringey
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yeah that is cringy
<discord-_> D​amien. — I absolutely hate stock but for a quick way of speedrunning the milestones in principia it worked great
<discord-_> D​amien. — You could also use rss/smurff
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > Agains, delta v requirements is stock are so low, one near always muscles the way without thinking.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko The stock dV requirements are SOOO EASY. I don't care if that sounds cocky to stock players. Once you've played RO, there's no going back to 3400 m/s orbital dV 🤮
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > You could also use rss/smurff
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien If I'm using RSS there's absolutely no reason for me not to also play RO
<discord-_> D​amien. — @_felixu_ you're missing my point. I'm not saying to play it. I'm saying to spin up a 2nd install as a principia practice sandbox
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > I absolutely hate stock but for a quick way of speedrunning the milestones in principia it worked great
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien I'd probably do a JSNQ install if I wanted actual fps with Principia. Not to speedrun the milestones, just to have a sense of wonder at actual n-body physics.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > you're missing my point.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien ☝️
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — And practice, yep
<discord-_> D​amien. — You know all those weird low energy transfers etc I post? Me and @Kurgut spent a week or so finding those in astrodynamics papers, discussing them then testing then out in RSS/SMURFF
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Actually, I don't know them. Usually when I check here there's a discussion going on, and if I've seen one, I wouldn't have remembered your username
<discord-_> D​amien. — When you can give no thought to your craft design or limitations you can focus on learning how to do it
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Fair enough
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Time to scroll up a whole lot and have a look at what you're talking about
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Can you give examples of some dV figures?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I know Chandrayaan 2 as a real world example, but that's pretty much it
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I wonder how much dV it expended for the lunar transfer
<discord-_> D​amien. — I can't remember off hand because I'm not at my pc but if you scroll up or do a search for posts by me in this channel that contain files or images you'll find loads
<discord-_> D​amien. — Search for @Kurgut too
<discord-_> D​amien. — We did Lagrange orbits, low energy transfers, gravity assists etc
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — What are you accomplishing with the "treble clef" moon thing?
<discord-_> D​amien. — Using the earth-sun Lagrange points to transfer to the moon without a capture burn
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — (sidenote: does Principia make RP-1 better in some regards? As in, *I can't do a standard transfer so let me do this low-energy thing and that's within my capabilities*)
<discord-_> D​amien. — Not really to be honest
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > Using the earth-sun Lagrange points to transfer to the moon without a capture burn
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Damien To lunar *orbit????*
<discord-_> D​amien. — It's more of a gimmick
<discord-_> D​amien. — @_felixu_ yes
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — How much dV, 3300?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — oooh thanks
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — How much dV, 3300m/s? (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — woah
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — that's fascinating
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — 3500m/s saves you 500m/s, that's great for limited LVs
<discord-_> D​amien. — One burn in low earth orbit
<discord-_> D​amien. — Drops you into an unstable lunar orbit
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — You could stabilise it afterwards though, couldn't you?
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yes easily
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #2519: Spin-up on reentry under physics warp with FAR - https://git.io/Jf8Qm
<discord-_> D​amien. — There are simpler transfers than that
<discord-_> D​amien. — Where you get into an elliptical earth orbit and the moon pulls you up over several orbits
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — That's what Chandrayaan 2 did
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — I think I may have done that in stock at one point. Played Principia for a month, then found a then-new Gameslinx planet pack without Principia support, then found RSS about a year ago and never looked back
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — That's what Chandrayaan 2 did (iirc) (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — But thanks for the examples!
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Maybe I'll delete EVE and have a go
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — They just fixed the rotation bug, didn't they?
<discord-_> D​amien. — @_felixu_ yes principia handles rotation now
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — No but there was a rotation issue with fairings and such
<discord-_> D​amien. — Oh that
<discord-_> l​pg. — the "rotation bug" is, uh, not exactly _fixed_ no <https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/2519#issuecomment-627612478>
<discord-_> D​amien. — Still being worked on I think
<discord-_> l​pg. — (last comment, a few minutes ago)
<discord-_> D​amien. — @lpg oof
<discord-_> D​amien. — That comment
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — sounds like the mechanic needs a complete rework
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — are there any 1.8.1 releases this doesn't affect? Or by any chance does it only affect RSS?
<discord-_> D​amien. — It's a ksp problem
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Principia allows some tricks for the RP-1 that are hard to do without it. At least it does with my version of HistoricProgression contract pack(s)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — You're using Historical Progression along with RP-1?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Also, apparently Frobenius has a lot fewer issues than later releases so maybe if i try that?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Like one can do very high AP contract and then get into the suborbital trajectory trivially without any fuel spent or even signal
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — using the moon, right?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Or would its influence not impart anywhere near the required dV to go suborbital?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — > You're using Historical Progression along with RP-1?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ Yes, I do. i've edited it a bit to be much less generous: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ao0C2PjqjY3EmQYUJsfLPhT-7xWR?e=h8lFd5
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Feel free to try and send your feedback
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Thanks! Is it only for the early game or what sort of period?
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Everything that was in Historic Pack / Historic Missions mods. It's a long road. I love the original author texts.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — (sorry, do I add the folders to GameData or Contract Packs?)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I probably should officially clean it up and figure out publishing story, if feedback is not negative.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — > (sorry, do I add the folders to GameData or Contract Packs?)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ Unpack to GameData\ContractPacks
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — 👍
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I recomend "revert less" to keep the overall balance of RP-1 despite a bit more money 🙂
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Allow your especaily bad rockets to fail 🙂
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — It should still work despite my adding it in in late 1953, right? as in, it won't get stuck on **you don't get this contract because you haven't completed the first ones, and you don't get the first ones because you already have x and y achievements**
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — ye, should be fine, probably.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I never tried, though.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — wost case, it's only 1953, so it would be probably easy to edit cfg to unblock. And contracts are not yet fully redicilius 🙂
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — wost case, it's only 1953, so it would be probably easy to edit cfg to unblock. And contracts are not yet fully ridicilius 🙂 (edited)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — just try it out and ping me if something borked.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Ridicilius? You've piqued my interest. I'm pretty meh at RP-1 so I've put contract payout at 120%, I should probably decrease it. I'll be sure to ping you with my feedback, whether good or bad
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Ridicilius? You've piqued my interest. I'm pretty meh at RP-1 so I've put contract payout at 120%. I should probably decrease it. I'll be sure to ping you with my feedback, whether good or bad (edited)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I'm playing at 80% with those pack(s) and money is good. My goal is Mars colonization anyway 🙂
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — need a few trilion $ for that.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — 80% sounds like a reasonable figure. Does Historical Progression get that far?
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > need a few trilion $ for that.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko Surely a few dozen million is enough if you're *efficient* (note current channel)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — A couple hundred million should be enough, cmon
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — A couple hundred million ~~should~~ would be enough, cmon (edited)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Using N-body physics + aerocapture we can deliver cargo payload to Mars very cheaply. All sorts of weak captures help with that tremendously (cargo can wait).
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — gahhh stop making me pity my rig so much
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — just kidding, obviously. I really love the idea of those low dV transfers and captures and hate that I can't have them with more than 15fps
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — 🙂
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Ye, I blame coronavirus: I was on-track for 64 core CPU, when customer's businesses started to dies off one after another. With that would be able to model O(128) vessels with Principia without even taking a hit 🙂
<discord-_> D​amien. — Kidneys are worth money remember 😉
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Saving those
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — 15 fps is actaully not to bad. I've played KSP streaming it from USA west coast to Russia once over 6-mbit link. what was bad.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — 15 fps is actaully not too bad. I've played KSP streaming it from USA west coast to Russia once over 6-mbit link. what was bad. (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko 64 core CPU? Jesus mate. I was thinking a $700 build with a 3.8ghz i3. People keep telling me Principia doesn't actually need that much
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — For O(4) vessels you should be just fine. Just clean up old one from time to time.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — My fps double if I aim the camera up, which is a strong hint that EVE clouds could be messing me up. I'm thinking of deleting the earthClouds.dds file
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko I always take care of debris 🙂
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yeah principia's Achilles heel is too many craft
<discord-_> D​amien. — They all get calculated
<discord-_> D​amien. — Asteroids too
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — Principia does not care where one looks (as far as I know), though, so it might be video card also being slow.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — On a i3 class of hardware, i might approve suppressing asteroids. On i9 - I dont really care - not slow enouph.
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2567: Mathematica logging of the inertia tensor - https://git.io/Jf87g
<discord-_> D​amien. — I'm normal use you don't get too many problems but those low energy transfers often use high precision long duration plans
<discord-_> D​amien. — Those can lag
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy edited pull request #2567: Mathematica logging of the inertia tensor - https://git.io/Jf87g
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — I have uninstalled distantobjects enchancement, and my life got immediatly better, btw. Check if you have it - might be not a principia or eve after all.
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4280/
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — > @Myshiko 64 core CPU? Jesus mate. I was thinking a $700 build with a 3.8ghz i3. People keep telling me Principia doesn't actually need that much
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — @_felixu_ well, when customers pay, all sorts of extravagansa is possible. When customers say "we are dead for 2 years, will ping you in 2022 and may be then we will pay invoices" 🙂 haha.
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] pleroy commented on pull request #2566: Three new API functions - https://git.io/Jf87i
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — anyway, repeating egg: Principia has relatively low overhead where there is no vessels (only Solar system) for the early years. Once there is 1 vessel there is a big jump. And then each additional vessel would not mind additional CPU thread.
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — anyway, repeating egg: Principia has relatively low overhead where there is no vessels (only Solar system) for the early years. Once there is 1 vessel there is a big jump. And then each additional vessel would not mind additional CPU thread. But it's obviously ok to have more then one vessel per thread, just let's be reasonable about the amount of work. (edited)
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — > I have uninstalled distantobjects enchancement, and my life got immediatly better, btw. Check if you have it - might be not a principia or eve after all.
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — @Myshiko No, I've tested my install with and without Principia and adding Principia gets me down from 30-40 to 15-20
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Might try removing distant object. I kinda like the skybox dimming though
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<discord-_> D​amien. — @egg step 1: handling rotation correctly would be kind of nice.
<discord-_> D​amien. — ....
<discord-_> D​amien. — Step 59,000: Nvidia are fucking incompetent.
<discord-_> D​amien. — What a journey
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Can anyone recommend a minimal skybox? I have Poof's MilkyWay but it would get tiring really quickly without Distant Object dimming it most of the time
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Can anyone recommend a minimal skybox? I have Pood's MilkyWay but it would get tiring really quickly without Distant Object dimming it most of the time (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — https://spacedock.info/mod/925/Pood's%20Deep%20Star%20Map%20Skybox
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — Thanks
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — You don't have Distant Object either?
<discord-_> D​amien. — I do and I use milky way
<discord-_> D​amien. — But that ones nice too
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4280/
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4281/
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — What other graphics mods aren't really necessary, Planetshine? The thing is, I can't figure out what's down to TU and what's because of MilkyWay
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — *planetshine
<discord-_> _​felixu_. — What other graphics mods aren't really necessary, Planetshine? The thing is, I can't figure out what's down to TU and what's because of planetshine (edited)
<discord-_> M​yshiko. — That’s probably best asked at some “support” channel, not Principia
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4281/
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<discord-_> e​gg. — @Damien yes, this has been an interesting journey
<discord-_> D​amien. — any thoughts on the direction from here? I'm assuming you can't completely replace physx's involvement
<discord-_> e​gg. — no, but we can use the calculations we use in timewarp
<discord-_> e​gg. — assuming the ship stays rigid, that means we will tell it how it rotates
<discord-_> e​gg. — and if it does not stay rigid, we hopefully won’t be wronger than PhysX