raptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fréchet. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, and 1.7.x. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
<discord->
egg. — really Frobenius was surprisingly close to the right thing, except we were thinking that we were doing something completely different
<discord->
egg. — the main difference being the force application strategy (see my long comment and those graphs, with the difference between 500 rpm reentries (lol) and 24 rpm)
<discord->
Damien. — here's that recording, gonna install the new version now
<discord->
Damien. — it's not just a graphical bug because the 'in shadow' and batter% on the kerbalism window changes
<discord->
Damien. — it's not just a graphical bug because the 'in shadow' and battery% on the kerbalism window changes (edited)
<discord->
Damien. — and only happens at a specific timewarp level
<discord->
lpg. — oh that could just be kerbalism being kerbalism
<discord->
Damien. — yeah it could be anything
<discord->
Damien. — just a curiosity for now
<discord->
lpg. — at 10,000+, it goes into 'analytics' mode
<discord->
lpg. — it averages out sub exposure over a full orbit
<discord->
Damien. — no look at the icon for the craft itself
<discord->
lpg. — it averages out sun exposure over a full orbit (edited)
<discord->
Damien. — I'm in orbit with one craft, there's a lander on the body below
<discord->
Damien. — the icon for the lander is spinning round in a small circle apparently leaving the ground, as I move around it in timewarp
<discord->
Damien. — it's really weird
<discord->
egg. — let’s ignore that weirdness for now
<discord->
egg. — it is too mad for this time of the night
<discord->
Damien. — lol no doubt, I should have been in bed ages ago
<discord->
lpg. — I _have_ seen lander icons behaving that way in the past.
<discord->
Damien. — yeah but has the movement of the icon had a corresponding effect on its ability to generate power and whether it's considered to be in shadow?
<discord->
lpg. — never noticed the 'as if on an elliptic orbit' pattern, though
<discord->
Damien. — but yeah, too mad for tonight
<discord->
lpg. — (i.e. the way it speeds up & down)
<discord->
Damien. — it's moving relative to my orbit
<discord->
Damien. — really freaky
<discord->
Damien. — ok so I've installed the new test version which I'll test on some descents tomorrow
<discord->
Damien. — I quickly tested to see if I still have ghosts haunting my lander and I do
<discord->
Damien. — in complete shadow, it at one point in its magic loop it gets sunlight. I think it's clipping inside the body and seeing the sun
<discord->
Damien. — that's guesswork though
<discord->
Damien. — yeah it's definitely clipping inside the mun
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — yeah I did a little project for an introductory numerical methods class about the figure eight, so in my search for the initial conditions I found a bunch of pages like the ones you and I linked
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — would sure make a fun configuration for three far-out asteroids in a planet pack
<discord->
egg. — why three far-out asteroids when you could be on one of the three bodies :D
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — I mean you're already throwing plausibility out the window
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — so you might as well go for it
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — I have the initial conditions, but I'm not exactly what needs to change to put them into orbit around a star besides making them rotate slowly
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — maybe all you need to do is give them a tiny bit of angular momentum though
<discord->
Acer_Saccharum. — the tidal effects would be massive for objects large enough to be gravitationally rounded
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<discord->
Myshiko. — Testing latest build today in the late evething / night
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<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] lpgagnon commented on issue #2519: Spin-up on reentry under physics warp with FAR - https://git.io/Jf0XZ
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<discord->
Profiremu23. — How to a manuver planning with Principia while i see the approch (Venus)
<discord->
Myshiko. — @Profiremu23 could you please clarify your question? (Screenshot?)
<discord->
Profiremu23. — MechJeb gives me a manuver in 800 days, but i want to do i correct burn in 50 days
<discord->
Profiremu23. — I dont know about Principia manuver planning
<discord->
Profiremu23. — cuz MechJeb don'est work
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Hallo?
<discord->
Myshiko. — You do want to create a flight plan, add a maneuver node to it and see how trajectory evolves
<discord->
Myshiko. — You do want to create a flight plan, add a maneuver node to it and see how trajectory evolves as you change the burn parameters and timings. (edited)
<discord->
Profiremu23. — I see
<discord->
Myshiko. — Try also different plotting parameters, not only VCI to understand how trajectories (actual and planned) behaves from different “points of view” (aka coordinate systems)
<discord->
Myshiko. — MechJeb can usually only give very approximate suggestion.
<discord->
Profiremu23. — i see
<discord->
Profiremu23. — So i decided i using Principia manuver planner
<discord->
Myshiko. — Good.
<discord->
Myshiko. — It’s rather accurate.
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Least can tell the flyby alt
<discord->
Profiremu23. — First step: go to orbit around Earth
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Second step: plan Venus encounter with Principia manuver planner
<discord->
egg. — @Sir Mortimer also I guess if you want to try using the API you can also use the latest test build linked in 2519, it is built after we implemented the API
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin commented on issue #2519: Spin-up on reentry under physics warp with FAR - https://git.io/Jf0NX
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin edited a comment on issue #2519: Spin-up on reentry under physics warp with FAR - https://git.io/Jf06h
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin edited a comment on issue #2519: Spin-up on reentry under physics warp with FAR - https://git.io/Jf0NX
<discord->
Stonesmile. — I experienced something similar to neph's reentry spinup where my sounding rocket spun up to 3k rad/s; that is completely gone with the new test build
<discord->
egg. — Ah, good to know
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin commented on issue #2519: Spin-up on reentry under physics warp with FAR - https://git.io/Jf0NS
<discord->
Departed. — Are these RSS Delta-V Maps not accurate for principia? For a low lunar orbit I'll need alot more than 680 m/s delta v. More in the ballpark of double that.
<discord->
siimav. — 680 m/s isn't even accurate for patched conics
<discord->
siimav. — more like 750-850
<discord->
Butcher. — I mean, depends on your intercept, but I'd go for more like 8-900 to be safe.
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2573: Pass the iterator traits as a template parameter to Forkable and ForkableIterator - https://git.io/Jf039
<discord->
Departed. — So 680 is the lowest possible?
<discord->
Departed. — But principia doesnt add delta v requirement?
<discord->
Stonesmile. — delta v pops out of the math, however the math for patched conics and principia/IRL are different
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2573: Pass the iterator traits as a template parameter to Forkable and ForkableIterator - https://git.io/Jf039
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy pushed 4 commits to master [+0/-0/±12] https://git.io/Jf0AL
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy 8006b18 - Merge pull request #2573 from pleroy/2570b Pass the iterator traits as a template parameter to Forkable and ForkableIterator
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Two Venus flybys in a year
<discord->
Damien. — Ok, maybe a series of videos of each flight plan?
<discord->
Profiremu23. — No
<discord->
Damien. — Unless you're planning it all in one go
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Just for flybys
<discord->
Falcon. — he is talking to me Profire
<discord->
Profiremu23. — not orbiters
<discord->
Profiremu23. — Sorry
<discord->
Falcon. — and i will just have to remember i guess to do a video
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<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2576: Change Forkable to distinguish two kinds of iterators - https://git.io/Jf0hN
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy closed issue #2570: DiscreteTrajectory should use a vector, not a map - https://git.io/JfRtJ
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy closed issue #2552: Implement a quadrature and use it in the PID - https://git.io/Jfst6
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy labeled issue #2552: Implement a quadrature and use it in the PID - https://git.io/Jfst6
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] pleroy labeled issue #2570: DiscreteTrajectory should use a vector, not a map - https://git.io/JfRtJ
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<discord->
Transparent_Elemental. — is there a way to check what inclination will be at a certain point in my planned trajectory?
<discord->
Transparent_Elemental. — for example I'm plotting a maneuver to the moon and i need specifically 48 degrees moon orbit or higher, can i check what would it be after a current maneuver *before* doing it?
<discord->
Damien. — view the frame in moon centred inertial and it should show you your equatorial an/dn
<discord->
Damien. — view the flight in moon centred inertial frame and it should show you your equatorial an/dn (edited)
<discord->
Damien. — view the flight plan in moon centred inertial frame and it should show you your equatorial an/dn (edited)
<discord->
Transparent_Elemental. — the nodes are there, but they do not show any inclination related info, only the speed
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<discord->
Damien. — hmm, not sure then
<discord->
egg. — yes because instantaneous inclination is not a thing that is very meaningful with arbitrary trajectories
<discord->
egg. — @Transparent_Elemental if you want the mean inclination of a vaguely Keplerian orbit, use the orbit analyser
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<discord->
Damien. — can't do that if he's not there yet though
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<discord->
egg. — yeah, we should provide the analysis in the flight planner.
<discord->
lamont. — " inertially fixed [...does] not works if the navball’s reference frame is different than the node’s reference frame, which is sometimes used when planning complex trajectories."
<discord->
egg. — what?!
<discord->
lamont. — yeah
<discord->
egg. — inertially fixed means inertially fixed
<discord->
lamont. — lol
<discord->
egg. — it *is* true that it will use more Δv, that much the user understood
<discord->
lamont. — yeah i was just typing that out as a question.... get out of my mind.
<discord->
egg. — (because if you burn in a fixed direction, as the trajectory curves, some of the energy expended does not go towards increasing your kinetic energy but instead towards slightly bending the trajectory)
<discord->
lamont. — yeah linear tangent steering
<discord->
lamont. — i just know that control theory tells me you're right
<discord->
egg. — we are not smart though, we cannot into control theory
<discord->
egg. — we just follow the Frenet frame
<discord->
egg. — (because « what is forward » depends on the chosen reference frame)
<discord->
egg. — > inertially fixed [...does] not works if the navball’s reference frame is different than the node’s reference frame
<discord->
egg. — If that actually does not work (as in, the marker points in the wrong direction), it is a Principia bug and should be reported
<discord->
egg. — if it results, via sybilline interactions, in misinterpretation by MechJeb that is a different problem
<discord->
egg. — if it results, via sibylline interactions, in misinterpretation by MechJeb that is a different problem (edited)
<discord->
Standecco. — I never understood what happens when your plotting frame is different than your maneuver frame, on a related note
<discord->
egg. — OK so the manoeuvre frame defines "what is ~~prograde~~ tangent" "what is ~~radial~~normal" "what is __bi__normal"
<discord->
egg. — the plotting frame just changes what you see
<discord->
egg. — so, say you are in circular LEO, and your manoeuvre frame is ECI, burning +tangent means prograde/along track
<discord->
egg. — which, if your *plotting frame* is ECI, is forward along the plotted trajectory
<discord->
egg. — if your plotting frame is SCI, the burn direction is unrelated to what you are seeing, because "forward" at the time of the burn is then primarily dictated by the motion of the Earth
<discord->
Damien. — I remember when I was recreating molniya, I was manually adjusting the orbit (not planning a maneuver) by performing pro/retro burns in ECI maneuver frame but with ECSF plotting
<discord->
Standecco. — are there cases when I'd want my plotting frame to be different than my maneuver frame or vice versa?
<discord->
Standecco. — in practice, I mean
<discord->
egg. — yes, because for a flight plan with more than one manoeuvre, you will want to look at your trajectory from multiple plotting frame
<discord->
egg. — well, for any nontrivial trajectory even
<discord->
egg. — the plotting frame is "how you look at it", and you may want to look at it in multiple ways
<discord->
egg. — the manoeuvre frame determines what it is; that does not change if you look at it differently
<discord->
egg. — say you are injecting into a TLI to impact
<discord->
egg. — from a parking LEO
<discord->
egg. — you are in LEO, you want to burn forward along that orbit, so the manoeuvre frame is ECI
<discord->
lamont. — alright so in theory now MJ will execute principia burn nodes
<discord->
egg. — but you will want to look at the trajectory:
<discord->
egg. — — in MCSA to see the general outline of the transfer ;
<discord->
egg. — — in MCI to see the approach to impact ;
<discord->
egg. — — in MCMF to see where on the surface you land
<discord->
lamont. — (not super duper well, but hopefully better than eyeballing it? IDK, i haven't actually even tested the code yet, so its all a bit yolo)
<discord->
egg. — > its all a bit yolo
<discord->
egg. — DO-178B MechJeb when
<discord->
egg. — oh there is a DO-178C now
<discord->
egg. — @lamont aside from the slewing issue, that even works with non-inertially-fixed burns, right?
<discord->
egg. — @lamont perhaps we should just set the marker to the initial orientation of the burn, and make it follow the Frenet frame only past ignition
<discord->
egg. — I think that would solve the issue that they would have in the steered case
<discord->
lamont. — yeah, if you don't do inertially fixed it'll just stutter-warp for the last 10 minutes up to the node
<discord->
egg. — ah, right, as the node reorients it will dance to follow it?
<discord->
lamont. — it'll "work" but just be annoying
<discord->
lamont. — yeah
<discord->
egg. — OK so it sounds like the correct solution here is to have the marker inertially fixed to its initial orientation until ignition
<discord->
lamont. — and MJ will warp... see its offf... stop warp... reorient... warp... see its off...
<discord->
egg. — showing the initial orientation is probably more friendly even to manual burners
<discord->
lamont. — probably?
<discord->
egg. — (you can orient yourself correctly immediately, instead of having a perfectly useless attitude for the burn 30 min from now)
<discord->
lamont. — that makes sense to me
<discord->
egg. — OK I will open an issue then
<discord->
egg. — that ought to be a relatively simple fix, but I forget what the code is like in that area
<discord->
egg. — @lamont I wonder how all that interacts with our persistent rotation
<discord->
egg. — but I suppose if you do sufficiently good attitude keeping you leave it close enough to nonrotating that you do not care
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin opened issue #2577: The manœuvre node marker should show the ignition orientation for guided burns - https://git.io/JfEOB
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin edited issue #2577: The manœuvre node marker should show the ignition orientation prior to ignition for guided burns - https://git.io/JfEOB
<discord->
Butcher. — > showing the initial orientation is probably more friendly even to manual burners
<discord->
Butcher. — @egg yes please
<discord->
egg. — haha
<discord->
egg. — @lamont is there some magical sarbian CI from which I can yoink a build of that pull request to try it out? (especially if I am to eggsperiment with the new marker behaviour)
<discord->
Damien. — imagine not being a manual burner
<discord->
lamont. — it kills any angular momentum down to some very small number before enabling warp to the node
<discord->
Damien. — although if MJ handled burns I may be tempted
<discord->
lamont. — roll is typically very zero'd
<discord->
lamont. — you know i should probably use reflection to see if Principia or PR were loaded and only do that angular momentum check then, and rely on magical stock warp killing angular velocity to zero other times, that'd reduce a lot of stock players whining
<discord->
Butcher. — > imagine not being a manual burner
<discord->
Butcher. — @Damien I'm a kos burner.
<discord->
Damien. — bigbrain right here
<discord->
Damien. — I don't have the attention span to learn kOS
<discord->
egg. — (the Jenkins Windows CI is a bit faster, but it still takes about 20 min to build and run the tests)
<discord->
lamont. — 1h 2mins is amateur
<discord->
DRVeyl. — What are stock folks whining about? That MJ manually kills rotation instead of relying on "abusing" warp killing it?
<discord->
egg. — apparently
<discord->
Butcher. — @egg incidentally I've had odd results doing burns where the manoeuvre frame is changed. E.g. a course correction in mci frame was wrong, but it was fine in eci.
<discord->
egg. — OK, so perhaps there is something to that comment
<discord->
Standecco. — I'd love to use kOS, but it's impossible to use on a 4k screen
<discord->
egg. — in which case, plz2filebugreport thx
<discord->
lamont. — @DRVeyl people make gigantic wiggle-rockets that never settle down
<discord->
Butcher. — Or you can set the default in settings.
<discord->
Standecco. — @Butcher ok, looks like kOS wasn't saving my default but changing the font in the actual terminal worked
<discord->
Butcher. — Read only config file?
<discord->
Butcher. — Earlier versions didn't have proper font scaling either.
<discord->
Butcher. — I don't recall a when it came in.
<discord->
Standecco. — no, maybe it requires a restart? The actual xml file looks good
<discord->
egg. — @lamont just tried it on a plane change (so binormal guided, here inertially-fixed flat-out does not work), it executes quite nicely considering that it is open-loop
<discord->
egg. — Got into an orbit which appears to very slightly resonate with the Mun’s