egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<raptop> Is siimav ANBOcat, or a different cat?
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<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
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<discord-_> [​ᴠᴀᴅᴇʀɪɪɪ]🤙😉. — @egg does principia work with KIS
<discord-_> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Raptop, siimav's PFP is not anbocat afaik
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<discord-_> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Principia and KIS should be fine, I'm pretty sure
<discord-_> [​ᴠᴀᴅᴇʀɪɪɪ]🤙😉. — ok
<raptop> ah
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<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] someniatko starred Principia - https://git.io/JsTTm
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<discord-_> A​shnoom. — When I click rebase I get this message? PEBKAC?
<discord-_> A​shnoom. — (it was a few seconds after the manoeuver finished)
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<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — Believe it or not, a GMAT-principia plugin could actually work
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — You get all the values of the maneuver
<discord-_> D​amien. — @Zeusbeer gmat tutorial when
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — still figuring stuff out
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — it's quite straight forward
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — There are loads on the internet, but that isn't KSP specific
<discord-_> D​amien. — Yeah I had a play with the tutorials for it and it was interesting but hard to get into without a proper ksp use case
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — I guess going to GEO is a good first example that you can apply
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — I think I tried going in the deep end too fast, doing lots of earth orbits would probably be good before going further
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — I think I tried going in the deep end too fast when I tried it, doing lots of earth orbits would probably be good before going further (edited)
<discord-_> A​mselfass. — Super cool that Green has fixed the crash-on-staging bug that was haunting my rockets. I'm glad my journal was helpful. 🙂
<discord-_> A​mselfass. — Is it okay if I delete the journal now from my Google Drive or do you still need it?
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<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — How do you determine the inclination of the moon's orbit while using principia?
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<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — There is currently no easy way to find that out, what msot people do is launch into any orbit and perform TLI such that you arrive at the moon 'when it's there', aka you launch 3-4 days early
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — I personally use a kOS script from itsRyan, it warps to the correct time to launch directly east from any launch site; https://github.com/ryanc55/KOS-Scripts/blob/master/moonlaunchwindow.ks
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — There is currently no easy way to find that out, what most people do is launch into any orbit and perform TLI such that you arrive at the moon 'when it's there', aka you launch 3-4 days early (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — relative inclination from an equatorial probe?
<discord-_> D​amien. — as mentioned there's no somple way
<discord-_> D​amien. — as mentioned there's no simple way (edited)
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — It's so inefficient
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I love it
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — Might want to tweak the phase angle of Earth and Mars when you do TMI 😆
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — yeah I'm just messing with starting dates
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — if you actually choose a launch window starting date it works fine
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — Does it give you a starting LEO orbit?
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — no you start from an escape trajectory from earth
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — a bit sad
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — Ah... If you ever reach a script that gives you the plan from LEO to mars orbit, that would be amazing
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — ikr
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — Is the moon's orbit in Principia the same, historically, as in real life? So you could look up it's inclination on such and such date and that would match it. When playing RP-1 with 1951+ dates for example
<discord-_> D​amien. — yes
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — very cool. thanks!
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — The only thing I know of that isn't correct is Mercury's AoP
<discord-_> D​amien. — copying nasa mission docs is what I did for some of my historical recreations
<discord-_> D​amien. — launching on the same date
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — Cool, where can I see your work?
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — if its available on youtube or something that is
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — Cool! Sounds super interesting.
<discord-_> D​amien. — It's been a long time since I've done any but here's one I did https://youtu.be/sq88ESmCFh4
<discord-_> D​amien. — You can get a lot of nasa mission documents from their ntrs databate
<discord-_> D​amien. — That mission was before principia fixed the universe rotation bug so unfortunately the lunar capturing part of that mission wasn't possible
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — Fantastic! Bravo!
<discord-_> D​amien. — You can get a lot of nasa mission documents from their ntrs database (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — it's (jokingly) frowned upon here but playing RP-1 without KCT (so you have full control of mission dates is a fun way to play career while still being able to recreate RL missions on the correct dates
<discord-_> e​gg. — it may be frowned upon in another place, but in this channel even the stock system is perfectly on-topic
<discord-_> e​gg. — (and you know my thoughts about the existing career systems :-p anyway)
<discord-_> e​gg. — (and you know my thoughts about the existing career systems anyway :-p ) (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah good point. @EggElectron by 'here' I mean in the realism overhaul hivemind. The principia channel is all welcoming so long as you're using principia or posting cats
<discord-_> D​amien. — a very good testbed for RSS principia is using stock parts with SMURFF
<discord-_> D​amien. — it allows the most principia specific experimentation for the least amount of time
<discord-_> D​amien. — otherwise you're being slowed down by the RO/RP-1 grind mechanics
<discord-_> D​amien. — I got a lot of value from my RSS/SMurff/Principia testbed install
<discord-_> D​amien. — I got a lot of value from my RSS/SMURFF/Principia testbed install (edited)
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — Good to know! thanks. I'm enjoying going slowly through RP-1 for the moment because it makes me actually learn a bit about the history of the technology, but maybe in the future I will prefer a pure principia testbed
<discord-_> D​amien. — I wouldn't suggest it as your main way of playing, but to practice and experiment it's great. I used it to get an understanding of how things like precessing orbits, lagrange point orbits, interplanetary transfers/gravity assists worked with the principia UI
<discord-_> D​amien. — you don't want your first time for those to also be while you're battling engine failures and all that stuff
<discord-_> e​gg. — Speaking of which, how is your cat
<discord-_> D​amien. — (btw I'm still terribly at gravity assists
<discord-_> D​amien. — (btw I'm still terribly at gravity assists) (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — the one in my pfp died a while back. the other black and white one, still great but completely uninterested in ksp
<discord-_> E​ggElectron. — This makes me happy
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<discord-_> e​gg. — Clearly we need mods that cater to the cats
<discord-_> D​amien. — I've gone off gaming in the last year or two but the one thing that I still find interesting and like to play with from time to time is doing cool stuff with principia
<discord-_> D​amien. — definitely
<discord-_> D​amien. — tablet UI for spaceship control
<discord-_> B​utcher. — I have a script that will get you a suitable orbit for a given escape velocity. 🤔
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Me too, aside from work obviously. I've been diverting myself with electronics instead.
<discord-_> e​gg. — hopefully KC coolness may be of interest too :-p
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah I've been man busy with work too, but I've bought a DSLR and I've been taking pics with that and my drone. mainly while at work
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah I've been mad busy with work too, but I've bought a DSLR and I've been taking pics with that and my drone. mainly while at work (edited)
<discord-_> D​amien. — I need to work so much to keep the car filled up with fuel so she can use it all to deliver cats
<discord-_> D​amien. — so yeah I now have a lot of pictures of the railway
<discord-_> D​amien. — I took these on my Sat night shift
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<discord-_> e​gg. — o O ( hmmm, could we have something about rail in KSP )
<discord-_> e​gg. — Apparently GNSS is relevant to the ERTMS
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Yes I have bumped into your partner a couple of time on cat related business.
<discord-_> e​gg. — Oh and control too? space4rail.esa.int
<discord-_> e​gg. — Oh and control too? https://space4rail.esa.int (edited)
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<discord-_> s​ichelgaita. — You can delete that journal.
<discord-_> D​amien. — we're looking at houses at the moment and no joke, one of the criteria is 'is it to far to do rescue kitties'
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Where are you looking?
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Are you going to move in next door?!
<discord-_> D​amien. — lol
<discord-_> D​amien. — I work in Liverpool and she works in Manchester so central to those really
<discord-_> B​utcher. — You'll end up somewhere like St Helens at that rate.
<discord-_> D​amien. — Bolton, Wigan etc
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Bolton is a bit less central to those. :-p
<discord-_> D​amien. — we live near Bolton now
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Oh fair enough.
<discord-_> D​amien. — renting though so just need to buy a house. not upgrading or anything
<discord-_> B​utcher. — We ended up in South Manchester because I worked in Runcorn and didn't want to commute from north of the river. Then I changed jobs so it became academic. :-p
<discord-_> D​amien. — south manc is pricy though
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Definitely get less for your money here.
<discord-_> D​amien. — I work all over the country so I need easy access to the motorways
<discord-_> D​amien. — but also don't want to pay peak commuter prices
<discord-_> B​utcher. — I have that, M56 / M60 is only a mile or two away
<discord-_> D​amien. — we were looking at a couple of houses near Bredbury the other day and that's surprisingly not that bad when it comes to my commute
<discord-_> D​amien. — most of my travel time is getting to the M62 and from the M62 to the office
<discord-_> D​amien. — because I'm north of the east lancs
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Depends how things go after covid restrictions fully ease. Bredbury to Liverpool used to be bad because you get stuck getting round Manchester.
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah. it's up in the air what the setup will be re: WFH too
<discord-_> D​amien. — if I'm only in the office one or two days a week I don't mind a shitty commute
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Yeah, I've been at home for about a year now. :-p
<discord-_> B​utcher. — Getting past Stockport / Bury + M62 junction is the issue, pick one, they're both bad. :-p
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — GMAT needs a lot of other dependencies for optimizing for trajectories
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — and they are really hard to find / require some random stuff to get
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — GMAT needs a lot of other dependencies for optimizing trajectories (edited)
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — so finding burns at optimal times is quite impossible without working at NASA
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — unless my brain isn't big enough, probably the latter
<discord-_> e​gg. — Maybe ask @XKdiver who understands optimization, in #mechjeb-pvg
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I don't even know where to start, and lamont would have to understand how basic GMAT works
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — there are no tutorials available using even the basic optimizer that comes with GMAT
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
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<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4910/
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2983: If a vessel only contains unfaithful parts, make it unmanageable - https://git.io/JsItj
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4910/
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4911/
<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4911/
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<_whitenotifier-edb> [Principia] pleroy edited a comment on issue #2922: [Info] FARc 0_16_0_1_Mader can lead to a Principia Fatal error in KSP 1.11.1 - https://git.io/JsJ3O
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — `The Optimize command in GMAT allows you to solve optimization problems by using a solver object. Currently, you can choose from one of two available solvers, the FminconOptimizer solver object available to all GMAT users with access to the Matlab optimization toolbox and the VF13ad solver object plug-in that you must install yourself.`
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — to download an older version of VF13 you need to fill out a scary application
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — https://www.hsl.rl.ac.uk/archive/
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — from there
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — so I guess it isn't impossible, I just don't wanna do it
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — especially since even if I get it, I would have no clue how to install it as a plugin
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — especially since even if I get it, I would have no clue how to install it as a plugin, and then be able to use it (edited)
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — especially since even if I get it, I would have no clue how to install it as a plugin, and then be able to use it, and most importantly, how to use it (edited)
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — Fmincon should work https://se.mathworks.com/help/optim/ug/fmincon.html
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — yes but for Fmincon there are 0 examples
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — vor VF13ad there's a bunch that I think could guide me
<discord-_> D​amien. — @egg is forking GMAT into the next principia release. It'll be released on the next new moon
<discord-_> D​amien. — it'll be usable in-game and with completely no performance impact
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — There aren't enough :rabbit_hole: -emojis in the world to describe the :rabbit_hole: that would be
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I have a vague feeling that @egg isn't doing that
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — sorry for the now 2 accumulated pings egg
<discord-_> D​amien. — everything we can imagine will be in the next release, that's the rule
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — well I guess he has 'do not disturb' on for a reason
<discord-_> D​amien. — you just have to make an issue on github with the magic words 'it'd be simple if...'
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — then egg will take at least 10 minutes of his time to angrily write back 'You don't know how coding works little man'
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — 🤡
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — in fairness he does make a point every single time
<discord-_> D​amien. — yeah which is twice as long as egg would actually need to do the thing
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — you sure don't know how to code little man
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — you sure don't know how coding works little man (edited)
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — 😂
<discord-_> D​amien. — brb opening a ticket for 'it'd be simple if you just rewrote all of KSPs code'
<discord-_> C​risti. — Zeusbeer, you didn't say that Gmat is easy yesterday? :)
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — yes, but that is for simple tasks
<discord-_> D​amien. — anything is simple if you patronisingly tell someone how simple it would be for them to do
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — it can't do the cool tasks without dependencies
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — thats my problem with it
<discord-_> D​amien. — you just need to <insert star trek word salad involving deflector dish>
<discord-_> C​risti. — Even the tutorials are bad, put X ther, Y there, but they are not telling why
<discord-_> D​amien. — simple
<discord-_> C​risti. — Even the tutorials are bad, put X there, Y there, but they are not telling why (edited)
<discord-_> l​pg. — itym inverse the polarity
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I disagree, the tutorials are quite good
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — some are better than others, but you can't just copy a tutorial without trying to adjust things to see how things change
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — the active learning part in adjusting is what makes a tutorial nice as a base
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — Also there is a video series on all the tutorials by NASA themselves available on youtube
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S6_n7RiR0o
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — Here is one for example that shows how the vf13ad algorithm works
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — or NASA, idk it could be GMAT themselves
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — GMAT is a NASA project, so same thing I guess
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — (+ some others)
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<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — @Zeusbeer If you fail to get vf13ad to work and want to try Fmincon, I (and others here) might be able to help; I'm deep in the Matlab hole at the moment for school
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I do not own Matlab at the moment, I should be able to get one via my university, but I still need to finish my finals
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I do not own Matlab at the moment, I should be able to get one via my university, but I still need to finish my finals for hs (edited)
<discord-_> S​tonesmile. — Oh, you need to have matlab, it isn't built into GMAT?
<raptop> As a linux user, I am legally obligated to mention things like Python's numpy library, and GNU Octave
<discord-_> e​gg. — 🐍 🐍 🐍
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — sympy
<raptop> The snek language has many cool libraries
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — You get this error if you open a sample 'needMatlab' mission
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — Fmincon is not build in too
<discord-_> e​gg. — astropy looks reasonably nice and principled
<raptop> reminder that astropy will throw a warning when doing date/time math on dates more than ~6 months into the future
<raptop> (this is actually for a good reason)
<discord-_> e​gg. — well, depends on the timescale
<discord-_> e​gg. — if you use TT it should be all good, right?
<raptop> hrm, probably
<discord-_> e​gg. — and if you use UT1 I would expect the present to be dodgy even
* raptop 's uses actually care that the earth spins, though my actual precision requirements for events aren't that high
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — can you plan transfers with Astropy?
<discord-_> e​gg. — not directly that I know of, but it is a nice library for fundamental astronomy
<raptop> It might only have geocentric reference frames, but the available units and constants are nice
<discord-_> e​gg. — (it is based on SOFA/ERFA iirc)
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — there is one plusside to GMAT though!
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I can prove in my GEO tutorial that -105 longitude is a stable location for GEO
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I can prove in my GEO tutorial that ~ -105 longitude is a stable location for GEO (edited)
<discord-_> e​gg. — I mean, you can also look it up in the Capderou book and then try it out with Principia
<discord-_> e​gg. — so I am not sure what GMAT brings for that :-p
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — it's just another cool way of looking at it
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — it's oscillating around -105
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — after a 800 day wait
<discord-_> e​gg. — Is this plate carrée ? ugh
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — there is also an earth-fixed reference frame
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — with an animation
<discord-_> e​gg. — no I mean the projection
<discord-_> e​gg. — (I do recommend the Capderou book for projection nerdery)
<discord-_> e​gg. — anyway, AFK
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<raptop> Why is there no Mollweide option?
<discord-_> Z​eusbeer. — I can adjust my GMAT script so I can quickly adjust a target longitude so I can visualise the drifting at different longitudes in a concise manner, principia would require a lot of timewarping with a bit of trial and error, costing a lot more time
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<discord-_> l​amont. — VF13 is interesting that's another sequential quadratic programming solver
<discord-_> l​amont. — i wish you could get an open source redistribution license from HST
<discord-_> l​amont. — i wish you could get an open source redistribution license from HS (edited)
<discord-_> l​amont. — i wish you could get an open source redistribution license from HSL (edited)