egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I shall pass on the reminder that the bot does not bridge the concept of 'replies'.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ raptop: that was in reference to 'Interstellar flight might be overrated'
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ but I did reply to the message, and that was enough for me _(:_
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<raptop> Apparently it doesn't bridge replies at all
<raptop> Anyway, there's a hard problem in making interplanetary flight remain interesting once you have interstellar propulsion
<raptop> [the standard SF universe solution of course being a relatively cheap FTL drive that dramatically outperforms STL in its domain, but can only be used in limited situations. But that's not really fitting for KSP...]
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ raptop: one probably way is definitely trying to reach speeds closer to 1c?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ raptop: one probably=e way is definitely trying to reach speeds closer to 1c? (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ raptop: one probable way is definitely trying to reach speeds closer to 1c? (edited)
<raptop> Sure, but if you have a spacecraft with a Δv of 6e7 m/s, leaving an extra 1e6 m/s around for checking out the planets is NBD
<raptop> Making the interstellar engines low TWR can help to mean you need to take extra considerations for landing, I guess
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<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ I know its almost impossible to get to the other systems but I still want the solar systems in the tracking station bc they look cool
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ also there is a slight change i could get there
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ with modded engines
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ i think hashbrown565 might have got it to work. not 100% sure tho
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ you could probably use FFT, with RO configs and realistic Isps and thrust to make an interstellar vessel
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Hashbrown has not yet replied to my dm on reddit about it.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Why would you want that
<raptop> MrCow: Egg would probably prefer to convert you to a perfect sphere instead of dealing with the display problems in an interstellar tracking station
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Perfect sphere of uniform density and charge
<raptop> pls no charge
<raptop> now we have to worry if he's a conductor, dielectric, etc
<raptop> ...though I guess those often *don't* have uniform charge distributions, so presumably an insulator where the charges are fixed
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ raptop: _Laplace: "Would you like an exact solution to go with that?"_
<raptop> The solution will at least involve symmetry around one axis, yes?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ raptop: of course, of course. maybe even throw another if you wish
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ understandable
<raptop> It's probably the sort of thing that would be easy enough if done clean-slate, but since it very much is not clean-slate...
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ welp
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<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ This entire discussion (Principia with REX) is completely pointless because of numerical accuracy. Proxima Centauri is 2^55 metres away from the Sun. This means that the absolute minimal error on the positions for objects in that system is about 4 metres. Principia tries to compute the position of celestials to 1 mm. Most likely you'll get apocalypses left and right because of fitting erro
<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩
<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ Stop trying to make it happen, it's not going to happen.
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ in the case that someone has made it work, I am willing to keep looking
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ And you’re willing to trust the word of some random Redditor over the mod’s author?
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ sichelgaita isn't the mods author
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ right?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I may know a certain thing that you don’t 😉
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ fr?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ If you don’t believe me, look at his status and then Egg’s status…
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ yes both say "playing principia", but I could do that
<queqiao-> ⟨M​rCow⟩ like i just did
<queqiao-> ⟨l​pg⟩ at long last a 3rd principia developer is found
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (and I get to exercise my nick-changing powers :-p)
<queqiao-> ⟨U​surpatorCow⟩ yay
<queqiao-> ⟨P​rincipia & REX?⟩ I changed it to something more descriptive
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Anyway, enough of this nonsense. If we tell you it doesn’t work, maybe it’s because it doesn’t work
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Apparently Edge of Eternity has multiple star systems and works with Principia
<queqiao-> ⟨P​rincipia & REX?⟩ well i have a chance
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Not at making it work, you don’t
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ At making me tired of this discussion, sure
<queqiao-> ⟨P​rincipia & REX?⟩ you're right, I don't have enough knowledge of n-body stuff and c++ to make it work
<queqiao-> ⟨P​rincipia & REX?⟩ probably
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Try out Edge of Eternity; it is more of a multiple-star system than multiple star-systems, but that might be close enough for you
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ ah
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ i'm looking for realism unfortunatly
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Also be aware that it is WIP and the new minor bodies have not been tested with Principia
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ but i'll have a look
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ ty
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ hmm, how many stars?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Also I finally made a fuchsia role *pour que nul n’en ignore*
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ mmm, fuchsia Principia. Nice
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Well yes, the colour of the noodles is iconic
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<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Now the question becomes, 'what does "作者" mean' lol
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<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Now people will ask, 'what does "作者" mean' lol (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ ~~_learning Chinese just to understand what some of the Principia characters mean_~~
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ hey at least I didn’t go for 𒁾𒊬
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ now I have two questions
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ dubsar principiakene
<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ A multiple-star system sounds like a great idea, actually, and would be quite fun with Principia.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ ah, author
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ but a challenge to make it though
<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ (I just turned fushia.🟪 )
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ won't it be?
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<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ won't ever happen with principia, probably won't ever happen with KSP
* queqiao- ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ ):
<queqiao-> ⟨S​oviet Onion⟩ but understandable
* queqiao- ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I thought there were plenty of double-star systems available
<queqiao-> ⟨b​adgermasher⟩ Just replace the Sun with some contact binary artwork in the middle and pretend its a real working multiple star system.
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ you need to run at least 2 n-body simulations of both solar systems using local origins and then connect them. and you might need to invent a float128 or float256
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Oh, double-star as in binary, not as in Sun + Proxima Centauri
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Evidently words are too hard on a Friday afternoon
<queqiao-> ⟨p​Edro⟩ Maybe a Barnards Star analog going by much closer to the sun could work.
<queqiao-> ⟨p​Edro⟩ Dont know how Principia handels hyperbolic planetary teajectories, so this may not be possible
<queqiao-> ⟨p​Edro⟩ Maybe a Barnards Star analog going by much closer to the sun could work.
<queqiao-> ⟨p​Edro⟩ Dont know how Principia handels hyperbolic planetary trajectories, so this may not be possible (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I think we’re talking about a single system with multiple stars, as Al₂Me₆ says
<raptop> Then it's just a matter of making sure you have long term stabbity
<raptop> Well, assuming it's not one of those annoying systems where there's a several thousand au seperation
<raptop> α Cen AB semi-major axis: 17.57 au. Eggcentricity: 0.5179
<raptop> presumably practical given RSS
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ You're on a KSP discord. Just pointing out the obvious, because apparently it needs being pointed out.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ And I did not know that both principia guy were in here 😄
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ we are yes. we are on the realism overhaul discord
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ which is as close to realsim i can get to in ksp
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ That wasn't exactly widely known haha... think this was the first time anyone said anything publicly: https://discord.com/channels/319857228905447436/480397772248580098/864864727049699348
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<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ (I just turned fuchsia.🟪 ) (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ @Spherical Cow More confirmation that it will unfortunately not work: Hashbrown565 has stated that the attempt was totally unsuccessful, and only lead to crashes. They were also surprised that anyone would still remember the attempt.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ ok, thanks for asking them
<queqiao-> ⟨h​ashbrown565⟩ Yeah no it didn’t work
<queqiao-> ⟨h​ashbrown565⟩ And if anyone manages to make a mod that can simulate multiple star systems in an n-body simulation, they belong at NASA.
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ The mod is less to blame than the floats
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @XKdiver just wrote how to do it, it’s not fundamentally hard, just annoying—you have to either split your problem or double your precision—and doubling your precision is just a nicer way to split your problem
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ you don’t even need a « nice » higher-precision format—after all Principia itself uses double-double in some places
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ where did they write this?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ but it’s a lot of work for something woefully uninteresting
<queqiao-> ⟨h​ashbrown565⟩ I encourage you to try
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ what part of « woefully uninteresting » do you fail to understand
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Principia only gets stuff added if it is interesting to implement
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ either way, where did lamont write how to so it?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ here, read the backlog on the subject you brought up <https://discord.com/channels/319857228905447436/480397772248580098/891022295043280896>…
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ ty
<queqiao-> ⟨h​ashbrown565⟩ Apologies, @egg I thought you were the one arguing that it could work
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ nah I’m the one in whose mod it doesn’t work :-p
<queqiao-> ⟨h​ashbrown565⟩ Lmfao
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ i might attempt making a fork of the mod
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ see if i am any good at c++
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ and physics
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Take a few classes in both first, then try
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ 99% garentted to fail
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ ok
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<queqiao-> ⟨D​RVeyl⟩ There is, admittedly, rarely harm in failing on your own effort and time. Though this might not be the easiest way to learn either C++ or physics.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ true
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ i know some basic physics
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ for the most part yes but if it’s neither interesting to implement nor interesting to have, it definitely doesn’t get implemented
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ what about in the theoretical that i managed to modify principia to get multiple star systems working and my code wasn't complete crap, would you accept a pull request?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ It’s a game, fundamentally.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ it is
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ but im not doing simulations for nasa, i just want to build interstellar rockets in a game
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ > interstellar Rockets
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ > realism
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ Pick one.
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Realistic physics, not realistic funding
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] MisterCow1 forked the repository - https://git.io/Jz6nd
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ You don't need principia if you don't care about precision or fancy noodles that much
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<queqiao-> ⟨B​lothorn⟩ I can't speak for the principia devs, but in general the value of PRs addressing personal feature requests depends heavily on complexity--even if the code's fantastic (and doesn't hurt performance, etc.), if it adds substantial complication it makes all future work more tedious.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ like a lightsail or something
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<queqiao-> ⟨B​lothorn⟩ Interstellar applications of lightsails are still pretty speculative, I think.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ah yes, so first of all you need sustained thrust in timewarp, and also you need modeling of solar radiation pressure
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Have Fun.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ah yes, so first of all you need support for sustained nonconservative forces in timewarp, and also you need modeling of solar radiation pressure (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ah yes, so first of all you need support for sustained nonconservative forces in timewarp, which introduces nasty numerical analysis issues, and also you need modeling of solar radiation pressure (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ oh yeah lightsail won't work with principia
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ fusion engine then
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Isn't a lightsail just an indirect fusion engine?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I am not sure what you are looking for but it is not Realism Overhaul, it is not Principia, and it might not be KSP at all. Perhaps you want KSP 2 ?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨B​lothorn⟩ (E.g. estimates for maximum velocity for a non-laser-driven sailship aren't far off from TAU, propel a much lighter ship, and even then require a light material that can survive close to the sun.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Isn’t a _human_ just an indirect fusion engine? 🤔
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Yes
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ i'm really just looking for rss with exoplanets and principia
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Universe Sandbox maybe?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ yeah but i want to build cool rockets
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ not blow up planets with lasers
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ speaking of which
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ i might play universe sandbox now
<UmbralRaptor> *sad RK4 noises*
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ what compiler is used in the development of principia?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I don't know how else to put this, but I suggest... finding a more productive use of your time. I guarantee you that you won't get anywhere.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ The developers told you why it's infeasible; I suggest that you heed that because they most certainly know what they've written better than you do.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ yeah, you're probably right
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ i just wanna learn c++
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ no harm in trying
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Principia is _not_ a good way to learn cpp.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ its a great way
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ jk
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ It is a great way to see how much more you have to learn
<queqiao-> ⟨S​paceman Spiff⟩ Does this mean that solar panels are indirect fusion rectors 🤔
<queqiao-> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ Even nuclear fission reactors are ultimately fusion reactors 🤔
<queqiao-> ⟨S​pherical Cow⟩ I'm probably going to end up going back to programming Minecraft mods and websites
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ that reminds me
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ I gotta play more nodecore (a minetest game), its a bit too big brained for me but whatever lol
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