egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ Poor soul counter- 1
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ 🤣
<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ ⟪Grzewik⟫ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiicA-yO[…] ⮪ It's good but... Isn't it missing the answer to the most frequent question: how to pick a launch window?
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ I don't think so, I usually just launch to plane of target with mechjeb.
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ I will defineatly go into more detail when I do a tutorial on how to go interplanetary
<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ ⟪Grzewik⟫ I don't think so, I usually just launch […] ⮪ You're launching from the Cape, right? But launching into the plane of the moon shouldn't work from there, should it?..
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ I don't see why not?
<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ ⟪Grzewik⟫ I don't see why not? ⮪ Because Cape's latitude is higher then moon's inclination?
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ Well even if thats the case, whats the problem if it clearly works for me?
<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ To my understanding It shouldn't, that's why I was wondering
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ Possible or not, clearly works for me,
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ NEVER had trouble with it
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ the moon's inclination oscillates in principia. when it is down at 18 degrees then the sheer distance you need to travel from the cape to get to the 18 degree ground track is prohibitive
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ okay wtf are we on about now. Are we trying to make something impossible that clearly is possible?
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ I have always done it like this and never had a problem with it, so I don't see any reason why this is wrong.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ ⟪Grzewik⟫ I have always done it like this and […] ⮪ The moon can be a full 10° inclination lower than the latitude of the Cape. In no way is a dogleg to correct a 10° relative inclination feasible during launch
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ That's why off plane transfers to the moon are the usual method of reaching it
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ cool, do you want me to get a video of doing it like i always do?
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Sure go ahead
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ give me a minute to get ksp up and running
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Have you done it at a time when the moon isn't at a similar inclination to the cape's latitude? Because it oscillates between 28.5 and 18.5°
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Over an 18yr period
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ This doesn't happen in stock. It only happens with principia
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ * stock physics.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Without principia the inclination is fixed at the inclination that best aligns with the cape's latitude
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ You can't directly launch into plane with a target in a lower inclination than the launch site's latitude
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ You have to do an expensive dogleg, or do an off plane transfer to reach it
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ alright then, i guess maybe the game starts with it close enough.
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ If someone has an issue with it , just launch from somewhere else or do an offplane transfer
<queqiao-> ⟨Grzewik⟩ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Yeah I think the game does start at a good point in its cycle. By the time most people playing RP1 are getting to lunar missions it's moved on. Catches new principia players out all the time
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ _why is mechjeb broken I launched into plane and I'm 10° out_
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ That's why egg tells people to launch from Kourou
<queqiao-> ⟨Starmincer⟩ _Cough_ Lunar transfer planner.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Picking the LAN to launch at is the hard part, that nearly always catches new users, the whole purpose of the lunar transfer mod. Launch to lan or launch to plane of the moon is almost never correct for any application except Kourou. I think a good tutorial would give the LAN a solid explanation because to this day it seems to be a poorly understood topic even after people receive the Wikipedia link lol
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ I need to write the transfer-to-a-moon maneuver planner with at least one optional MCC
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ although that won't help principia users until i figure out how to plan burns and execute them in MJ
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ can't plan them outside of principia, can't get principia plan it for you (from the code), can't get back the results of planning...
<paculino> It seems that Minmus mission skills from stock would transfer more.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ ⟪Starmincer⟫ *Cough* Lunar transfer planner. ⮪ In my day we eyeballed it. Kids these days with their newfangled toys
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ didn't kos exist in those days?
<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ I would watch a video tutorial on how to eyeball it
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ didn't kos exist in those days? ⮪ In my day we didn't know how to use kos
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ ⟪Farrier⟫ I would watch a video tutorial on how […] ⮪ Classic ascent profile and a LOT of trial and error
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Direct ascent launches to the moon are nightmare fuel
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ find NK's old youtube videos on KSP 1.1.3 era RSS/RO/RP-0, he does direct ascent to the moon with classic ascent and eyeball
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I think it was pap who helped me with mine (I may be misremembering)
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ we were trying to recreate Pioneer 0/1
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ this was after me similarly bashing my head against Luna 1 direct ascent for ages before I started using principia
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ this was the end result
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ it was before the craft rotation bug with principia was fixed so the lunar capture wasn't possible
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ what does this mean 😭
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ try decreasing and increasing flight plan length until it calculates fully and the message goes away
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ can also increase the number of steps and/or prediction tolerance to make the plan easier to calculate
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ the default settings "1024" and "1" are not good
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ im at max steps 10km tolerance
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ and at.. 50000 days
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ and it just won't increase
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ no wonder it doesn't calculate...
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ +either
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ oh
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i think im breaking it
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ get a NASA supercomputer 😛
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ oh
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ so i guess im finding that principia cannot handle interstellar even without it being lightyears away 😂
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ it was never supposed to i think
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yeah i mean it makes sense now
<paculino> Interstellar is not feasible with realistic distances
<paculino> You'd need to use 128 bit
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ 5 trillion meters away
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ well.. this is not interstellar yet, it's somewhere about the orbit of pluto, it should work
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ oh
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ the problem is the plan duration i think
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ try to get there faster )
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ well.. this is not interstellar yet, it's somewhere around the orbit of pluto, it should work
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yeah i was like 5 trillion meters sounds like a lot but it shouldn't be actual interstellar lol, ill try to get there faster then
<paculino> Can you just reduce the tolerance instead?
<paculino> Not reduce, increase
<paculino> Reduced precision
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i mean the tolerance was at 10km and any more screwed it up a whole lot
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ as in 100km moved it by half lower
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ it's one thing to have a tolerance of 10km near Pluto and quite another if you are in LEO, and I think the precision setting applies to the entire flight plan including the time when you still in LEO (
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ +compared to 10km
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ so very high tolerances should be problematic unless you are already far away
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ it's one thing to have a tolerance of 10km on an interplanetary trajectory near Pluto and quite another if you are in LEO, and I think the precision setting applies to the entire flight plan including the time when you still in LEO (
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ it's one thing to have a tolerance of 10km on an interplanetary trajectory near Pluto and quite another if you are in LEO, and I think the precision setting applies to the entire flight plan including the time when you are still in LEO (
<queqiao-> ⟨Zavian⟩ Do you really want a plan of 136 years?
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i don't know 😭 I'd imagine I have to?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ no
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ oh
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ 136 years is a very _long_ plan length
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i feel like im doing something very werong then lol
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ this can't be right
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ need more dV
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ no sane person should be doing 600 year transits
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i think my calculator is drunk
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ you would need a generation ship or suspended animation technology
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ astrogator isn't getting it right either
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ What are you even trying to do?
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ just.. transfer to the star
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ how to even add a star in the game with principia
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ it just orbits the sun
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ how far is the star exactly
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ * kerbol very far away
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ periapsis is 5 billion km
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ that is the orbit of Pluto
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ you can just as well travel to Pluto
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yes
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ if this is a pluto level ordeal I would suggest Jupiter gravity assist
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ im not playing RSS
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ …Then what is it
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ jnsq
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ 5 billion km sounds like that thing with a red dwarf called Valentine
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ not valentine but yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ Is it that system?
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yes
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ then what big gas giants are there in JNSQ
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ oh jool and lindor
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ But JNSQ is 1/4 of real size, so the gas giants aren’t that giant…
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yeahhhhh
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ jool is the more massive one
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ time for the jool - sun - star maneuver
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ (with oberth acceleration at the sun)
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i mean the real question is why it's making me go that far in time to see my predicted apoapsis
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * sun, however it's called in that system)
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ ig
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ time for the jool - sun - star maneuver […] ⮪ (on a completely unrelated side note, I did that in spaceflight simulator but with mars and no star and my perihelion was 600km with a speed of 120km/s)
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ mars doesn't provide enough dV to dive to the sun though
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ ⟪kingparity⟫ i mean the real question is why it's […] ⮪ what propulsion are you using, is it a daedalus or antimatter drive or what
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ nuclear salt water engine from far future
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ why can't you just go directly with that
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ pluto is reachable in 10 years with IRL tech + jupiter assist
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ i mean i have 100km/s of delta v
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ brachiostrone it then, 45km/s out 45km/s capture and the remaining 10 for orbital manuevering
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ in this way the star should be reached within 10 years
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ there we go
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ thanks
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ 1hr burn lmfao
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ anyway i was supposed to be asleep about 4 hours ago so oops
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ I was going to recommended persistent thrust but then I remembered the channel name
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ * recommend
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ in that case 10x physics warp in better time warp makes it a 6 min ordeal, or if you’re not a fan of that 4x is a 15 minute burn
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ yep
<queqiao-> ⟨kingparity⟩ how do u bare the normal time warp tho since with anything above stock time warp it lags like hell
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ ⟪kingparity⟫ how do u bare the normal time warp tho […] ⮪ With high precision, long duration it's gonna lag. Reduce the workload or buy a supercomputer are the only real options
<queqiao-> ⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ or plan the burn with high plan length to see the encounter, then shrink it down again and do the burn
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<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ That is a long backlog.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪Grzewik⟫ https://tenor.com/view/eh-meh-jim-jim-ha[…] ⮪ Grzewik Please take a closer look at the #rules, in particular #3 of the July 2020 addendum.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪Grzewik⟫ If someone has an issue with it , just […] ⮪ It is a strange choice for a tutorial to teach people to do something that does not work most of the time. The issue mentioned by the others here is a very common pitfall for new Principia+RO players (made worse with RP-1, when they notice it after having heavily invested in the Cape).
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ (Kourou and Starmincer's tools are viable options though.)
<_whitenotifier-1adf> [Principia] eggrobin commented on issue #3615: Something is amiss in the reference frames whose axis of rotation varies - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/3615#issuecomment-1534806040
<_whitenotifier-1adf> [Principia] eggrobin closed issue #3615: Something is amiss in the reference frames whose axis of rotation varies - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/3615
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<_whitenotifier-1adf> [Principia] eggrobin closed pull request #3626: Equipotential plotting - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/pull/3626
<_whitenotifier-1adf> [Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3627: Draw another equipotential to pinpoint L₄/L₅ - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/pull/3627