<ZLSA>
there's no stable API or anything, and it's not really documented
<umaxtu>
granted, the most complicated mod I ever made was coal/redstone blocks before those were in vanilla
<ZLSA>
Izaya: ah, I thought you just meant a terrible foundation
<umaxtu>
the java version is moddable. they even release obfuscation maps
<Izaya>
ZLSA: Microsoft publishes ... class mapping? or something, which helps with modding, but it's only like 10% of the required effort to get a dev env up for a new version of the game
<ZLSA>
I had assumed it was all reverse engineered
<Izaya>
Bleh, I guess I'll have to test whether these delegates still increase over time in a minimal testing environment
<umaxtu>
at least you aren't waiting on a covid test?
<Izaya>
No, just other inconveniences of life >.>
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<umaxtu>
test was negative!
<Izaya>
ZLSA: you know how most KSP mods will work on 1.10, 1.11 and 1.12 without any changes and only occasional minor issues?
<Izaya>
With Minecraft, point releases often require changes, and no major releases are compatible; the difference between a 1.12 and 1.whatever they're up to now mod is basically a rewrite
<umaxtu>
it is pretty bad
<Izaya>
it really says something about the game and mod ecosystem that despite the difficulties it's still so popular for modding
<ZLSA>
yay for abandoned games?
<ZLSA>
(blah blah finished not abandoned blah blah but same difference in this case)
<Izaya>
eh, even if they were still developing for KSP you wouldn't expect to do a full rewrite every 2-3 versions
<Izaya>
but I do think that being "finished" is good for mods!
<Izaya>
Don't have to update for the game itself, just when you want to add stuff to your mod!
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<Izaya>
I wonder if switching everything to the toolbar mod and disabling the stock toolbar would work...
<SporkWitch>
one thing i want in KSP2? Rover SAS. Instead of the normal presets, it keeps the vehicle level to the surface it's on. Or at minimum, separation of wheel and pitch controls >_<
<Izaya>
kOS time
<Izaya>
there's a mod that adds rangefinding lasers, put one next to each wheel, use that to calculate an "up" direction, lock the reaction wheels to that
<Izaya>
Gameplay-related question: Do you guys prefer longer term higher paying tourist contracts or the quick "hour in orbit" ones? I've just gotten my first "take tourists to a surface base" contract and it could pay for a nuclear shuttle on its own, but I think money-per-time it's worse
<SporkWitch>
that's actually probably a really good application. might look into that
<Izaya>
(400k for 12 hours, vs an optimal 800k assuming each "take two tourists to orbit" mission takes 1.5 hours)
<SporkWitch>
does time really matter, though? if you're babysitting, probably not. if it's running in the background and you do other stuff while they're in transit to the next maneuver, still probably not.
<Izaya>
That's sort of what I'm thinking, if I switch to doing further-out tourism I can timewarp more, and that would be sort of nice
<SporkWitch>
i look at it more as time is meaningless, what is the unit value of the contract.
<SporkWitch>
the main purpose of "time" is explicitly to REFRESH the contract list if there aren't any you like
<Izaya>
another option would be building a second Mun base as a tourist trap
<Izaya>
then each 12 hours I'd be doing two contracts at once
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<Izaya>
Taking them to visit the Mun station would let me do two contracts in one go without building another base, but now that I have the high-res resource scanner going I was planning to do that anyway; somewhere with nice resource concentrations near the equator
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<Izaya>
kinda wish that kOS had a syntax for a while loop, writing everything as until loops feels like standing on my head
<SporkWitch>
they've definitely made a lot of weird choices. periods to end lines, until rather than while, etc.
<Izaya>
very strange design deicisions.
<Izaya>
if you weren't afraid of setting up a C# development environment (I am) I imagine patching the parser to accept both . and ; wouldn't be difficult
<SporkWitch>
not sure why they didn't just go with python and only write an API for the KSP-specific stuff. after all, python is designed with ease of use and readability as the primary design goals.
<Izaya>
is there a C# implementation of Python?
<Izaya>
kerboscript has issues but it is implemented entirely inside the game environment, y'know?
<Izaya>
and it can interface with C# components in a fairly straightforward manner because of some of the odd design decisions
<SporkWitch>
oracle lost its lawsuit, remember? You could literally copy the python API and nothing bad happens (heck, they likely wouldn't mind, as long as you give attribution)
<Izaya>
you could, but implementing an existing language is a lot of work :p
<SporkWitch>
and inventing one from scratch isn't? lol
<Izaya>
less cross-checking, you can just make stuff up
<SporkWitch>
doesn't necessarily need to work 100% identical, down to the weird quirks, but by using standard terms and conventions it'd ease things a lot
<SporkWitch>
like semicolons... and while loops... lol
<Izaya>
I think something like a ZPU emulator would've been interesting
<Izaya>
it's simple enough to implement, and it's a valid gcc target
<Izaya>
but that would mean writing a lot of glue code to make it talk to KSP
<SporkWitch>
i'm just thinking about Notch's abandoned next project now; I really wanted that one
<Izaya>
0x10c?
<SporkWitch>
yup
<Izaya>
I remember being hyped about that
<SporkWitch>
would have been really cool
<Izaya>
... damn, that was a long time ago
<SporkWitch>
we're old
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<raptop>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You attempt to obtain a sample of Kerbal DNA for analysis. Windows finally, after a long and wordy pre-mortem speech, gives up on you and your HDD.
* raptop
recalls seeing the announcement for 0x10c and being excited. ...and then, well, ...
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<Izaya>
updated my rendezvous script to adjust the maneuver node to match ±250m of the target's altitude at the time, managed to get the typical accuracy to within 1km rather than within 5
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<Althego>
local leet time
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<darsie>
.
<Mat2ch>
Looks like Avenue 5, a tv show, is running again. The one show that gets everything wrong about space. :D
<Pinkbeast>
From the wikipedia page it doesn't seem like it has particular pretensions to realism
<packbart>
more like Red Dwarf, I guess?
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<Pinkbeast>
Yeah, and we don't worry about how the Cat emerged from the hold speaking English and knowing about "Cloister the Stupid"
<Pinkbeast>
Or, say, why in Our Flag Means Death the captain's cabin is about the size of a tennis court
<Webchat646>
i am starting new game and wondering whitch are "need to have" mods
<darsie>
hi
<SporkWitch>
very few could really be considered "must have," but generally, if your computer can handle it, graphics mods are really nice.
<darsie>
Dated quicksaves, KER
<Webchat646>
i am interested in making distant places colony base, kos, make spacestations, satellite network, unmanned automated travel
<darsie>
EER
<SporkWitch>
Webchat646: are you a new player, or an experienced player looking for advanced mods? Because the stuff you're asking about adds massive complexity and you should really be comfortable with stock first.
<Webchat646>
i am lets say new: only 240h gametime and never even landed on luna :)
<SporkWitch>
You don't want to jump right in the deep end, as it can be overwhelming and frustrating
<SporkWitch>
did you mean duna or the mun?
<Webchat646>
duna, i guess
<Webchat646>
mun i had one day few years ago
<darsie>
Dated quicksaves, KER, EER
<SporkWitch>
gotcha. If you've managed landings and returns on at least the mun and minmus, then yeah, sufficient grasp of the basics; it's about as far as I went (plus duna) before going heavily modded
<raptop>
Is KAC available for 1.12.3, because the stock alarm clock seems to handle eccentric orbits poorly
<raptop>
?
<darsie>
Landing on Duna is about as hard as landing on the Mun.
<darsie>
It's super easy.
<darsie>
Different, but easy.
<Webchat646>
ah, yes, that question also: what version of KSP should i use for get needed/suggested "must have" mods working?
<SporkWitch>
dated quicksaves is definitely essential, as it allows much more save scumming (and with more mods, so too are there more chances for things to crash heh). For the colony stuff, MKS is THE big one, adding tons of colony-related mechanics, logistics (including means by which to automate shipping stuff between planets). Moar Science adds a bunch of new station science parts and experiments you can
<SporkWitch>
only perform in orbit, and have to return them to kerbin for credit.
<darsie>
Dated quicksaves, KER, EER work on 1.12.3. Not sure if officially, may have to enable older versions in ckan.
<SporkWitch>
darsie: true, but it's still an interplanetary transfer, not just a trip to one of kerbin's moons. It's a slightly larger logistical hurdle since it makes the concept of transfer windows far more important. minmus and duna are pretty easy to brute force an encounter.
<SporkWitch>
KER is another good one to have, as it provides lots of extra information, and it also seems to provide better and more accurate ΔV estimates than the stock indicator, at least with mod parts in the mix, especially mod engines.
<darsie>
I also have picoports.
<SporkWitch>
I run latest KSP; couple mods I use need to be overridden, but I don't believe they're the cause of any stability issues. I'm sure one or more mod interactions is the cause of my occasional error-less crashes, but they're consistently when switching scenes, and relatively infrequent, so not anything that's bothered me to dig further than checking the logs and not finding anything
<darsie>
Since I often do minimal designs :).
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<darsie>
Webchat646: type /nick Hannah646
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<darsie>
Ike can also be a nuisance.
<SporkWitch>
another I recommend is Kerbal Joint Reinforcement. Just really helps with how fragile and wobbly things are in stock; pretty much completely eliminates wobble, makes things harder to break, but they still break when they actually should due to forces.
<Althego>
a resource and a nuisance
<Webchat646>
current latest version does not look like supporting KER in CKAN
<darsie>
Add the required version.
<Webchat646>
downgrade to required version?
<darsie>
Don't curse here when it breaks ;).
<SporkWitch>
no, override in CKAN to install anyway
<darsie>
Settings/compatible game versions
<darsie>
Webchat646: type /nick Jenny646
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<Hannah646>
testing
<darsie>
hi Hannah646 :)
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<darsie>
hi newPlayer :)
<newPlayer>
:)
<newPlayer>
what is most suggested game version?
<darsie>
idk. Probably the lastest, mentioned in the topic.
<darsie>
Depends which mods you wan.t
<SporkWitch>
game is pretty much finalized, no new patches expected except for bugfixes, so all mods SHOULD eventually be updated (or are of a nature that there's simply no need to, just override the version)
<SporkWitch>
This is my full modlist as of now. A few need overriding in CKAN and AVC, but as I said, overall I'm running fine. I do have occasional crashes when switching scenes (typically entering the VAB or launch pad), but not frequently enough for me to bother really digging on it, and I've not had any mid-flight so even when it happens the damage is functionally zero.
<SporkWitch>
I'm running latest KSP from Steam, so should be 1.12.3
<SporkWitch>
Based on a conversation yesterday, I do not recommend RemoteTech. Almost all of its functionality is part of stock, now, except for the concept of directional antennas (which, as implemented, don't really serve a realism purpose IMO, since they magically target) and lightspeed lag. The user yesterday was running into issues where he should have had connectivity but didn't, even on the launch pad
<SporkWitch>
removing RemoteTech and using stock commnet instead resolved the issue.
<darsie>
Yay, I played. I transmitted data from space around Minmus for a contract. Already had a sat there.
<SporkWitch>
oh, and if you're planning on setting up a lot of satellite constellations, you DEFINITELY want that improved tracking station mod from the list I linked. It turns the vessel list into a collapsible tree of bodies, so you can more easily see what's around where, and hide those that aren't around the body you're interested in at the time.
<SporkWitch>
darsie: gotta love those. Though it kills me that I always seem to get a contract for a flag or something immediately AFTER I leave lol
<darsie>
You can accept flag contracts after you leave.
<darsie>
Unless it's for a different target.
<SporkWitch>
i meant after i left the body it wants
<darsie>
ah
<SporkWitch>
yeah. So I literally JUST did a manned mun mission, and as soon as I'm back there's a flag on mun contract lol
<SporkWitch>
The docking ones are also annoying, since apollo-style missions don't count, they have to be two separately launched vessels >_<
<darsie>
mhm
<SporkWitch>
I get not counting it when you just do the apollo style rearrangement in orbit, but if one leaves physics range of the other, then the return rendesvous and docking should count!
<darsie>
rendezvous
<Althego>
jmj :)
<darsie>
what?
<Althego>
jarre - rendez-vous :)
<SporkWitch>
s and z are weird in english, especially when it's a french infection :P
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<darsie>
For my very first Duna landing I used to Flea boosters for landing. worked.
<darsie>
two
<Althego>
hehe amazing
<Althego>
doing something like that on solids is great
<darsie>
Not sure if I used separators. I guess I did.
<darsie>
or a chute
<darsie>
My last Duna landing had two chutes. Didn't even need a landing burn. Toothpick legs.
<SporkWitch>
darsie: you see the "ghetto kOS" vid i linked earlier to iz-aya? (didn't want to ping unnecessarily heh)
<darsie>
Was that a question?
<SporkWitch>
yes, asking if you caught it
<darsie>
Do an advanced scan with a rover arm of Gilly Ridgeline.
<darsie>
no
<SporkWitch>
He used KAL controllers to do a mission to the mun and back without any stock reaction wheels (used rotors instead), and used all solid rockets to get around the need to control throttling
<SporkWitch>
all control was done by simply hitting the abort button lol
<SporkWitch>
rovers on anything with less gravity than the mun is tedious lol
<SporkWitch>
even the mun has just barely enough to make KSP rover physics manageable
<darsie>
I had a Dawn probe on Gilly to do occasional Gilly contracts.
<darsie>
k, not going to Gilly.
<darsie>
TBF, it only asks for a rover arm, not a rover.
<SporkWitch>
i want a kerbal to swing around a rover scanner arm to do science lol
<newPlayer>
latest KSP has enough lights available, or should get some mod?
<newPlayer>
docking alignment mod is needed, or stock has it covered well?
<newPlayer>
and for good colonization mod: Roverdude USI Kolonization MKS/OKS is good?
<SporkWitch>
a docking mod of some kind is good to have, as you'd have it in real life, and there is nothing in stock to help. MKS is what I use for colonies and such, if you scroll up i linked you my full mod list
<newPlayer>
Anyone masochistic enough to use mod: "OhScrap"? lol
<SporkWitch>
many taht are trying for much more realism do; it's a bit more than I'm interested in. same reason I don't really bother with abort systems and have no problem with save scumming or revert to launch/VAB
<darsie>
newPlayer: I've used lights for an orbital debris rescue mission. They worked well for the job.
<newPlayer>
domelight is not compatible with latest version. i guess, i try indicator lights then
<darsie>
Hmm, I thought the domelight I have is stock.
<newPlayer>
i ment: if build spacestation somewhere in space, then lights seem to be needed
<newPlayer>
ok, it might be :)
<newPlayer>
i check it there
<darsie>
It can be useful, but not absolutely required. You can often see stuff blocking the view to the galaxy.
<darsie>
But lights are convenient.
<newPlayer>
looks like i am good to go for try again. LAst mods set did cause crashe
<darsie>
And you can also wait for sunrise.
<darsie>
Earlier I've used Illuminator Mk1/2 with bigger rockets, e.g. asteroid pushers.
<newPlayer>
again one mod not compatible: "probes before crew"
<SporkWitch>
there are several effective stock lights
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<SporkWitch>
probes before crew just rearranges the tech tree; it works on current
<newPlayer>
ok. I believe, there were not enough options when i played last time
<SporkWitch>
i only really use spotlights, dome lights, and navigation lights, all of which are stock.
<SporkWitch>
it's really sounding like you should probably boot up a stock creative save and take a look at what's changed since last you played, so you can better assess what you need to add
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<Pinkbeast>
newPlayer: I use Indicator Lights and Surface Mounted Lights
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<newPlayer>
tx for good suggestions. I give it next try now
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<ZLSA>
m
<ZLSA>
disregard lol
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<FLHerne>
;mission add To speed R&D, you build a device that instantly reifies any hypothetical statement made within the complex.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: To speed R&D, you build a device that instantly reifies any hypothetical statement made within the complex.
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<FLHerne>
too wordy
<FLHerne>
;mission del reifies
<LunchBot>
Deleted mission: "To speed R&D, you build a device that instantly reifies any hypothetical statement made within the complex."
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<FLHerne>
;mission add You accelerate R&D with a device that instantly reifies hypothetical suggestions.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: You accelerate R&D with a device that instantly reifies hypothetical suggestions.
<raptop>
I guess that's one way to pull off those intentionally physically impossible bad outcomes
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<Judge_Dedd>
!nextlunch
<LunchBot>
Bao buns.
<Judge_Dedd>
Nice
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* darsie
put another sat in a tundra orbit.
<darsie>
I get disappointed when the game accepts my orbit before it's fine tuned to match the specs.
<SporkWitch>
there's a tolerance built in for obvious reasons. not sure what the exact margin is, but it's reasonably forgiving, without being a joke
<packbart>
darsie: you could modify the contract configs
<packbart>
TrivialDeviation = 7 // The percent difference allowed for altitude and relevant angles to trigger easy contracts
<packbart>
SignificantDeviation = 5 // The percent difference allowed for altitude and relevant angles to trigger medium contracts
<packbart>
ExceptionalDeviation = 3 // The percent difference allowed for altitude and relevant angles to trigger hard contracts
<darsie>
ok
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<darsie>
It was convenient for IR telescope orbits.
<darsie>
I used asteroid spotting contracts to make the money to fully upgrade all buildings.
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<SporkWitch>
i've only ever gotten the one that says to launch a "zzz" telescope, but I can't figure out which one that's supposed to be and it never triggers >_<
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<Izaya>
heh, had two kOS computers running my execute node script at the same time
<Izaya>
executed the node fine
<Izaya>
but I think I need to figure out a system to elect a flight computer if there are multiple kOS machines
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<Izaya>
thinking what I'll do is have each computer generate a random number and send it to the vessel
<Izaya>
wait half a second, if it has the highest number it executes any maneuver nodes, if not it will print that it's deferring
<SporkWitch>
logically shouldn't you only need to check if it's either A) just loaded, B) just had a decoupler / separator / undocking event, or C) just docked / clawed? So the check would really be for one of these events, and only then do the extra step of electing a master
<Izaya>
this script only runs on boot, so
<SporkWitch>
gotcha
<Izaya>
(or rather, only automatically runs the execute node script on boot)
<SporkWitch>
btw, did you see / like the ghetto kOS vid i linked you earlier? lol
<Izaya>
it also updates all the programs from the archive
<SporkWitch>
hmmm, apparently you can cheese the "science from x orbit" contracts with scansat, even if you've already trasnmitted 100% of the science from the mapping before, just hit analyze again and transmit
<Izaya>
that applies for any of the sciences I've tried
<SporkWitch>
scansat was just the logical candidate to try, since i leave them there even once they've fully mapped
* X
orbit thinks it’s because he is made of a nice Gouda.
<SporkWitch>
pick commonly used terms as your name, get random pings :P
<X>
If only you were witch spork and not SporkWitch.
<SporkWitch>
sorry to disappoint, had this name for about two decades now lol
<X>
Me too. =(
<SporkWitch>
mildly annoying after Path of Exile came out; apparently a popular build got named "spork witch" and I went from being all the top search results to disappearing lol
<SporkWitch>
(also get lots of "oh do you play?" comments, when I literally hadn't even heard of PoE until someone had mentioned it lol)
<X>
I just like to make random comments because otherwise no one talks to me.
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<SporkWitch>
has it occurred that it's because you don't initiate conversation normally? lol. This is the first I've ever seen you speak.
<Izaya>
oh, parts have a UID, I'll just use the lowest one of those
<SporkWitch>
logically they would, and that's as good a solution as any heh
<X>
I haven’t had much to say about ksp lately. I’ve been satisfyingly stuck in a factory.
<Izaya>
(the PRNG keeps generating the same number on all processors because I assume they all start with the same seed >.>)
<SporkWitch>
You might also check vessel naming priority, and only use UID to resolve conflicts. That way the higher priority vessel always has priority
<SporkWitch>
doing UID only, or my suggestion about naming priority with UID tie-breaker?
<Izaya>
I'm not sure how I'd do naming priority
<Izaya>
I almost always use command modules with integrated kOS, true, but not always
<SporkWitch>
i'm a master of pracrastination, so still haven't done anything with kOS, but let me check the API and see if i can find something. I assume there's something to poll it
<SporkWitch>
hmmm... note to self: stop treating kerboscript like it's a real programming language that does logical things. This documentation is poop, and seems there are only very rudimentary things you can read...
<Izaya>
I'm sure I could extract the naming priority, it's just that not all parts will have an associated naming priority
<Izaya>
might need to update copynav to check for flags on a given processor, the nuclear shuttle doesn't need in-atmosphere flight software
<umaxtu>
kos is something I've never gotten into
<SporkWitch>
then it's a question of how you want to handle modules with no naming priority. are we assuming the master should typically be a probe core or capsule? If so, we can defer unless there are no parts with naming priority
<Izaya>
that's true I guess
<SporkWitch>
i know basically zero about kOS, but I am a competent, if not professional, programmer
<SporkWitch>
programming logic has just always come kind of natural to me, at least in terms of "okay, here's what I need it to do, that's easy to write"; figuring out WHAT it needs to do? Well that depends on the task heh
<umaxtu>
I'm not that either. script kiddie at best
<Izaya>
hmmm, configure vessel naming is its own dialog and everything