ferram4 changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | Maximal & soundnfury's RP-1 Race Into Space Signup: http://bit.ly/2DEVm2i [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator"
<Raidernick>
Starwaster, will that break ckan crc?
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: sweet!
<Starwaster>
raidernick ...
<Starwaster>
might?
<Starwaster>
depends
<Starwaster>
on if they already picked up the new release and cached it...
<Raidernick>
the ckan meta bot caches them and crc checks
<Raidernick>
it's probably busted
<Starwaster>
the actual zip file itself?
<Raidernick>
yes
<Starwaster>
do we know if it already grabbed it?
<egg|laptop|egg>
NathanKell: doing fine, poking at lunar orbits, petting cat
<Starwaster>
egg|laptop|egg I and my cats approve that
<Starwaster>
not the lunar orbit thing, the cats couldn't care less
<Starwaster>
where is taht actually stored? the only thing I know is the netkan stuff and I dont see anything about crc there
<Raidernick>
ckan meta is it's own repo
<Raidernick>
as it indexes it create meta files for each release
<Raidernick>
info about that particular zip is stored there
<Starwaster>
found it... got indexed two hours ago...
<Starwaster>
dammit, must have forgot to actually build after setting the version #...
<Starwaster>
I THOUGHT I had done it all at once but clearly not
<Raidernick>
if you recalculate the crc and pr the meta repo you can probably avoid re-releasing it
<Raidernick>
that would probably work
<Starwaster>
sha1 and sha256...
<NathanKell>
Anyone who had updated their mods since then would probably be hosed tho
<NathanKell>
Best to just re-release
<NathanKell>
it's safest.
<egg|anbo|egg>
how's ferram4?
<egg|anbo|egg>
and how's FAR?
<NathanKell>
People say he hasn't been around in almost as long as I have(n't)
<egg|anbo|egg>
he has eggsisted a couple of times since i've last seen you here
<Starwaster>
too late now, I just pr'ed
<Raidernick>
egg|laptop|egg, far is being updated as far continued right now
<Starwaster>
worst case scenario is that people just have a dll that is lying about its version
<Starwaster>
GODDAMN LIARING LIAR!
<egg|anbo|egg>
ferram4 seems to have eggsisted as recently as this month, from my logs
<egg|anbo|egg>
bit burned out on the FAR stuff so slow to get back to it
<egg|anbo|egg>
understandable tbh
* egg|anbo|egg
pokes the KSP fora with a stick
<egg|anbo|egg>
NathanKell: oh btw we have TRAPPIST-1 now
<egg|anbo|egg>
(we screwed up TRAPPIST-1b a bit, we're working on recomputing things to fix it but it takes a lot of computational power to get an initial state for that stuff from the observations)
<egg|anbo|egg>
NathanKell: yes, we're basically redoing half the work of the papers to get an initial state from transit timings because that's the easiest way to get something usable >_<
<egg|anbo|egg>
(we don't compute transit timings from the light curves ourselves, that would be silly)
<ProjectThoth>
egg|anbo|egg: So you're starting with a sim and iterating down to something that matches the known light curves?
<egg|anbo|egg>
ProjectThoth: nah, I don't work from the light curves, I use transit timing tables that Grimm et al. computed from the light curves
<ProjectThoth>
egg|anbo|egg: Oh, jeez.
<egg|anbo|egg>
ProjectThoth: but I optimize a solar system until it matches those transit timings
<egg|anbo|egg>
ProjectThoth: working directly from light curves would be madness
<ProjectThoth>
egg|anbo|egg: Yeah, how much of that light curve stuff is qualitative?
<egg|anbo|egg>
hm actually maybe that's only a subset in that graph
<egg|anbo|egg>
the eso paper is more recent
<egg|anbo|egg>
yeah it has additional Spitzer data
<egg|anbo|egg>
NathanKell: ProjectThoth: unrelated, mascons sound like they'll make the moon fun in RSS :D
<ProjectThoth>
We can do mascons now?
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<egg|anbo|egg>
principia can
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<egg|anbo|egg>
Erdős actually does fancy spherical harmonics (beyond oblateness) for Earth (and thus has support for fancy gravity in general), but we'll add it for the Moon (where it's far more visible) soon
<egg|anbo|egg>
I want to see how high we need to push the spherical harmonics degree to get qualitatively okayish behaviour though, otherwise this will be sluggish for low orbits
<egg|anbo|egg>
you might think that's OK because low orbits will splat quickly so we don't need to warp them too long, but there are stable orbits here and there which make things annoying
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<Starwaster>
what does FAR actually need? I can't imagine much (if any) of it is dependent on anything that might have changed on Squad's side. Or were there new features that ferram wanted to do?
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<egg|laptop|egg>
Starwaster: i'm sure ferram4 had plans, if it's anything like principia there is an unending supply of plans
<egg|laptop|egg>
NathanKell: btw, in case you missed it, the ferram4 and egg sectors have been reunified a while back
<ferram4>
ferram4 has had issues trying to figure out out to get wings to work the way he wants them to, just like has been the holdup on new features for awhile
<ferram4>
Also, big delays because of family and computer issues
<ferram4>
And coding KSP mods has not been as exciting and fun as it used to be. The break has helped, but I dunno how slow it will be to get back into it
* egg|laptop|egg
pets ferram4
<egg|laptop|egg>
ferram4: what is it about the wings that you'd like to rework?
<ferram4>
Currently, they still use a part-based method (hhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss)
<ferram4>
Actually still just a refinement of the original wing model FAR has had
<egg|laptop|egg>
oh
<ferram4>
I would like a way to get the polygons for each of the wings, adjust them so that polygons sufficiently close to be attached actually are attached, and then do some nice quick linear algebra to handle how they interact on each other
<egg|laptop|egg>
and I suppose the main difficulty there is that the 3d model just won't do for the wings (forgetting for a second about the problem of frightening and confusing PDE magic if you had a decent model)
<ferram4>
As always, FAR dev is more geometry and fuzzy logic than actual aero
<egg|laptop|egg>
what with the models for most wings being not very wing-shaped
<ferram4>
Well, yes
<ferram4>
And at that level of granularity they likely wouldn't work at runtime
<ferram4>
But I can include a good enough approximation
<egg|laptop|egg>
yeah surprisingly I have managed to keep quite a bit of astronomy in Principia, aero in FAR seems harder (I mean, astronomy tends to do things far above real time, so you can actually do it; CFD in-game would not be a sane approach sadly)
<egg|laptop|egg>
(admittedly a lot of the astronomy is from getting sidetracked by "hey let's make a test case that replicates that paper over there", "oh what if we did TRAPPIST-1, well it turns out we have to replicate the work of the TRAPPIST paper", etc.)
<ferram4>
Our best realtime models are literally just a weird combination of the earliest wing-calc theory + some empirical data thrown together
<egg|laptop|egg>
hah
<ferram4>
I think it might actually be a century old at this point?
<ferram4>
Hmm.. 1907. So 111 years old
<ferram4>
egg|laptop|egg, Also, since I know you will enjoy this, the actual calculation creates lots of singularities in the plane(s) of the wing(s) and control points to be measured need to be carefully selected to prevent everything from blowing up
<egg|laptop|egg>
aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
<ferram4>
Fortunately, this really only throws things off very close to the singularities, and the locations of the control points relative to the singularities is well-defined... for a single wing in a single plane
<ferram4>
Once there is another wing downstream (like, say, a horizontal tailplane if we're just being boring) the singularities and control points need to account for that as well
<egg|laptop|egg>
ferram4: re. 1907, meanwhile Principia's default planet integrator is from 2002 (the one for RSS is a completely different kind from 1990, but while faster it is less resilient to overly long stepsize so we only use it if we know it's OK, not by default)
<egg|laptop|egg>
and the gravity models for the Earth and Moon are GRACE and GRAIL stuff
<ferram4>
I think the specific versions of what I want to use are from the 80s at the earliest, but still, it's really, really funky
<egg|laptop|egg>
ferram4: so for game porpoises you'd need to twiddle the control points automatically and somehow detect singularities, sounds Fun :-p
<ferram4>
Well, the "somehow" is very easy
<ferram4>
Because I'll know exactly where the singularities are
<NathanKell>
ferram4!!!!
<NathanKell>
Good to see you!
<ferram4>
I need to to calculate the influences. Basically, model the wing as a finite number of vortices of finite strength that influence the velocity at every point relative to 1/r from where they are
<egg|laptop|egg>
NathanKell: see, you look away one second and we're busy turning your channel into numerics again :D
<ferram4>
SO I know where they are, it's just that the control points for wings downstream might end up in the way
<NathanKell>
s/1 second/an hour's stream/
<ferram4>
NathanKell, oh, hey, you're alive. Although I suppose I'm one to talk
<NathanKell>
Your total absence is slightly less than mine, so stone-throwing is fair game :P
<NathanKell>
I'm at 10 months. You're at...8?
<NathanKell>
7 even, maybe?
<egg|laptop|egg>
if you count other channels, 21 days,
<ferram4>
egg|laptop|egg, Also, consider the effect of USERS (dun dun dun!)
<egg|laptop|egg>
ferram4: USERS, German plane designers, etc.
<ferram4>
Your models only have to handle modders shenanigans at worse and you can yell at them
<ferram4>
No, the Sillywaffe designs aren't that bad
<ferram4>
NathanKell, I have no idea
<ferram4>
It's been awhile and I keep trying / intending to get to work and... ugh
<ferram4>
Although, that does mean one good thing
<ferram4>
Me complaining about part-based design isn't something I've done every day for awhile now, so I should be in the clear
<NathanKell>
in the clear?
<ferram4>
FOr not getting on anyone's nerves for saying "fuck parts" in the last... oh, I dunno hour or so?
<ferram4>
They've fucked up so many things for FAR, I tell you hwat
<blowfish>
NathanKell: I was slightly off. It was actually 2000s over 12 ignitions
<NathanKell>
...wow
<NathanKell>
ferram4: :D
<blowfish>
almost makes me want to write a speculative upgrade config for it
<NathanKell>
YOU SHOULD
<ProjectThoth>
blowfish: What engine?
<blowfish>
X-405H
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<github>
RP-0/master 3325637 Matthew Wrobel: Parts Browser: instead of generating cfg files to /output folder, they will now overwrite the files in /GameData/RP-0/Tree/
<github>
RP-0/master 06cbbfb Dan Paplaczyk: Many Tech Tree Changes Per #952...
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<Starwaster>
New Horizons is ~1.2185 million miles from Ultima Thule
<Starwaster>
with a relative velocity of 32,291 MPH. (thanks NASA, now how about that in metric?)
<Starwaster>
12.26 light hours distance
<Starwaster>
from us
<Starwaster>
oops that's 2 way
<Starwaster>
(so half that)
<github>
[RP-0] siimav opened pull request #967: Added KAC integration for setting up training completion alarms (master...KACIntegration) https://git.io/fhLgx
<Bornholio>
Starwaster: Kitten fell asleep biting my toes, hes about 6.13 L-hrs from ultima thule, is images from wake up comming?
<Bornholio>
of NH that is :P
<Starwaster>
bornholio not sure what the timeline on that is; the flyby technically starts tomorrow but its closest distance will be on... Jan 3? I think?
<Starwaster>
Also, more importantly, will images of the kitten that is reported to be 6.13 light hours from Ultima Thule forthcoming????