UmbralRaptor changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> … one of the other grad students just compared me to nomal O_o | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
<kmath>
<klsywd> PSA: Now that grad students are recognized as employees in the state of CA, we qualify for food stamps. Enroll here! https://t.co/LCNtRCJvjJ
<awang>
Are explosions common in ECE research?
<awang>
technicalfool: I would have been more worried about whoever was below the chem labs
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<Iskierka>
so given my tablet's probably dead, in the event I can't force a recovery somehow, anyone got suggestions how I can test the pins of the screen to determine which (if any) standard connector it's a flattened version of?
<Iskierka>
(is a nice screen so would be nice to recover it and use it for a pi or something)
<awang>
Iskierka: I would guess trying to figure out the screen model might be easier
<Iskierka>
BNTV600 is their serial # for it
<Iskierka>
but this will obviously be some challenge with the main board completely dead one way or another so I can't just go ask around uni for an oscilloscope I can borrow to try figure out what each is doing by the length of repeating cycle/number of alternations/etc
<Iskierka>
although I would theorise it'll be a cut down HDMI as they offer a HDMI adapter on the charging port
<awang>
Does the screen itself have a model number on it?
<Iskierka>
lemme open it up
<awang>
I'd imagine trying to figure out the pinout using an oscilloscope would be quite difficult, given the number of pins on connectors nowadays
<awang>
And then you have fun things like DVI where not all pins are used, so the unused pins may have been left off the connector
<Iskierka>
it would make it clear what's doing data and potentially controlled images could cause more behaviour on controlled pins
<awang>
True
<awang>
To be honest, I'm not entirely familiar what information an experienced oscilloscope operator can glean
<Iskierka>
hmm, don't know if it's a problem with the battery being dead or it just discharged down to 3.4V (possibly too low?) since I last bothered trying to charge it
<Iskierka>
conveniently, while I don't have a voltage generator, I have a known healthy lithium battery I can try power it with
<Iskierka>
but connecting it's gonna be real stupid
<awang>
Well, guess that answers your question about the connector?
<awang>
What's the battery voltage supposed to be?
<Iskierka>
it kind-of answers it. Still want to know if I can find ways to push a generic input to it
<Iskierka>
Depends on what the minimum the tablet will accept is. lithium can do useful amps (for this kind of application) down to likely 3.2, but the voltage drops quick so there's not many amp-hours there and some mobile stuff will give up and say it's empty at 3.6
<Iskierka>
(easier to do that than find ways to power things at below the rated voltages)
<awang>
The description does say 4-lane MIPI
<awang>
I'm out of my depth here, though, so I don't know how useful that is
<awang>
And probably still need to figure out which of the 40 pins has clock info or such
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Could you set up some resistors or something to start with a low voltage and gradually work your way up?
<awang>
Or is that a bad idea?
<Iskierka>
the battery I'm gonna use is already at 3.7V and if that doesn't start it it's definitely not battery. So as soon as I find sensible wires I'm just gonna go for it
<awang>
Don't lose the magic smoke
<Iskierka>
and as suspected something's bork on the motherboard. Had voltage across battery contacts, would not boot
<Iskierka>
I am interested that the photo on panelook doesn't have one of the connectors I see. uploading some photos now
<Iskierka>
looooooks like to drive this I would need an adapter shield and due to low volume, if they're even still doing it, it's $99 per unit
<Iskierka>
nope, they don't do it anymore, so I'd have to figure out the cad files and get one custom made if I were to do that
<Iskierka>
isn't an imaging multimeter just an oscilloscope?
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<BPlayer>
"Imaging multimeter" = "Oscilloscope with multimeter functionality"?
<Iskierka>
I believe it is normal for them to be able to scope either amps or volts, and the graph means they also cover AC, so there's no need to multimeter beyond doing V and A
<Iskierka>
although I suppose they probably don't directly do resistance
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<egg>
!wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark a superconducting piston
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<kmath>
<chordbug> who the fuck is scraeming "QUOTIENT OUT" at my commutative ring $R$. show yourself, coward. $I$ will never quotie… https://t.co/bE5h4zjG64
<bofh>
LOL
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<egg>
!wpn bofh
* Qboid
gives bofh a niobium acid-sensing dip pen
<egg>
bofh: hm, I wonder whether there are niobium nibs
<kmath>
<BabelStone> Post #UTC153 there are 684 provisionally accepted character additions (inc. 66 emoji) for Unicode 11 next year https://t.co/InLTJ4uto6
<bofh>
egg: unlikely, it's slightly pricey and not very useful as a pen nib material.
<UmbralRaptor>
(also a bunch of astronomical/astrological symbols on the BMP)
<UmbralRaptor>
!u+2BD4
<UmbralRaptor>
!u u+2BD4
<Qboid>
U+2BD4 (⯔)
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: and we still don't have the proper symbol for the planet Le Verrier?
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: well, yes. No LV version of ♇ instead of ♅ or ⛢.
<UmbralRaptor>
Mayan numerals!
<UmbralRaptor>
Will the lakh symbols start showing up in discussions of budgets in India?
<UmbralRaptor>
"Good science is an inherently creative process, so I suspect most researchers have blinging talents, even if repressed by medication and years of scorn from colleagues."
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<egg>
bofh: ah nevermind it does have heap sort, it's just that ctrl+f on imgur albums seems borkened
<bofh>
did it ever work? also what's the album?
<bofh>
I linked a video on twimg :P
<egg>
bofh: you retweeted a tweet that linked to an album
* Iskierka
is watching videos on enigma and had the silly idea that you could allow a letter to become itself by having the lamp-letter layout be not-QWERTZ
<bofh>
ahh, checking twitter :P
<Iskierka>
(and further have interchangeable ones)
<Iskierka>
it'd still be unable to become some letter, but it wouldn't be itself, and which one would therefore be harder to determine
<Iskierka>
egg: https://youtu.be/14oa9QBT5Js while it is interesting to see them, I notice that bubble and cocktail sort miss some very easy optimisations that don't actually change the nature of the sort; if they drop the item being sorted before the end, they don't add the whole set beyond that as "this is sorted" and skip searching them again, they just naively increase the sorted area by 1
<kmath>
YouTube - Color Visualization of Sorting Algorithms
<Iskierka>
makes no difference on reversed sets where they're still terrible, but helps a lot on random and nearly-sorted
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<whitequark>
egg: tell hattivat yes this is a thing
<whitequark>
immature russian gamers are *awful*
<egg>
whitequark: you can tell Qboid to tell hattivat via !tell, Qboid's more reliable than I am
<Iskierka>
worse than american kids who've all slept with your mom?
<egg>
whitequark: though I think hattivat's question was more on the nature of russian swearing in general
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<whitequark>
!tell hattivat that is a thing
<Qboid>
whitequark: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<whitequark>
Iskierka: yes. yes much worse.
<whitequark>
english is *so* bad at swearing you have no idea
<whitequark>
like all your insults are kindergarten-level compared to russian ones
<egg>
yeah it's boring even from a french perspective
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<whitequark>
egg: you've seen that scene from the matrix right?
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* hattivat
wonders if there is an egg|phone|egg , then what is the egg|cell|egg, an embryo?
<Qboid>
hattivat: whitequark left a message for you in #kspacademia [28.10.2017 16:18:31]: "that is a thing"
<egg>
whitequark: yeah :-p
<hattivat>
that is a very context-dependent message ;p
<egg>
whitequark: I really like the grammatical construct where you can take any noun (prefererably something slightly obscene but from a grammatical perspective it matters not) and use it to intensify
<whitequark>
hattivat: swearing by russian gamers
<egg>
and then you can chain such intensifiers ad nauseam of course
<hattivat>
oh, thought so
<egg>
hattivat: <whitequark> immature russian gamers are *awful*
<hattivat>
whitequark: but I was thinking more generally, is a big chunk of Russian rude words/expressions based on anal sex innuendos?
<egg>
hattivat: also we're back at the usual discussion that <whitequark> english is *so* bad at swearing you have no idea <whitequark> like all your insults are kindergarten-level compared to russian ones <egg> yeah it's boring even from a french perspective
<hattivat>
because it is in Polish, one of the most common expressions you could use to express your dislike for someone is literally "dick in your ass"
<hattivat>
French has a lot of fecal swearwords, right?
<hattivat>
at least that's what I've been told
<egg>
well, yeah
<egg>
to annoy (or if used pronominally, to be bored) is literally "to cover in shit"
<egg>
yes we have a word for that
<hattivat>
whitequark: "dick in your ass" as in "I wish you a dick in your ass", there are also derrived version of "dick in your face", "dick in your back", "dick in your eye"
<hattivat>
it's "chuj ci w dupę" in Polish, the Russian equivalent would be something like "khuy tyebya w zhope" I guess
<hattivat>
egg: that's awesome
<egg>
hattivat: that same verb can also be used for general imprecations (like you'd say "fuck *something/someone*")
<egg>
instead you say "I cover *something/someone* in shit"
<egg>
hattivat: also pondering what kind of brokenness greek-cyrillic-latin unification would look like, τηισ cαν προβαβλυ λοοκ ϝun (ор тиiс cан пробаблу лоок ϝuн, depending on context) :-p
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<hattivat1>
the reliability of my internet connection this month is simply awe-inspiring
* Qboid
gives hattivat a serpentine chlorinated wombat
<hattivat>
egg: greek-cyrillic-latin unification could be awesome for a tonal language
<egg>
hattivat: hmm, how so?
<hattivat>
you can have 3 tones for most phonemes without any funny diacritics
<egg>
haha
<hattivat>
if you added some other script, like sutterlin, you could easily write Mandarin
<hattivat>
how many tones does Vietnamese have?
<hattivat>
we'd probably have to borrow a few letters from Georgian and Armenian to cover SEA languages
<hattivat>
actually, fuck sutterlin, let's go with Runic
<hattivat>
I'd love to see Thai spelt with a mixture of Runic, Cyrillic, Greek and Latin :P
<bofh>
rofl
<bofh>
that would be such a mess
<hattivat>
a *glorious* mess
<hattivat>
I totally need to write a script to do that
<hattivat>
actually, fuck scripts, I'll make it a microservice with an API
<hattivat>
and website
<hattivat>
and beer
<hattivat>
and hookers
<egg>
bofh: hattivat: I'm looking more at unifying following historical evolution (letters don't have semantic value, so that's the closest I can find to the criteria for unification), so h = η = и
<hattivat>
egg: that's easier than with languages
<hattivat>
all alphabets come from one root
<hattivat>
pre-synaic, proto-synaic, or something along these lines
<egg>
yeah, for GCL it mostly comes from G :-p
<hattivat>
in any case, it's one of the few fundamental inventions that only happened once
<bofh>
egg: I like how *all* of those have radically different sound values btw.
<egg>
bofh: no, modern greek has η pronounced i
<hattivat>
I like how latin alphabet has radically different sound values depending on the language
<kmath>
<bofh453> <@egg|zzz|egg> bofh: the κατάφρακτοι who say ΝΗ! also the Варѧги who say НИ! @eggleroy
<egg>
hattivat: ^
<egg>
oh, whitequark has a new name :-p
<SnoopJeDi>
НИ: Orange Website but it's run by RT
<egg>
but no, H and Н have nothing to do with each other
<egg>
much like C and С
<egg>
bofh: hattivat: which means that clearly SΣС would get unified and C wouldn't (or would get unified with ΓГ maybe)
<hattivat>
egg: you already showed it to me two weeks ago I think, and I already expressed my appreciation of how beautiful it is :)
<bofh>
SnoopJeDi: oh gods no
<hattivat>
what's important is to preserve ꙮ
<egg>
!u ꙮ
<Qboid>
U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O (ꙮ)
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
that's a nice letter
<egg>
hattivat: but clearly that one can't get unified anyway, because texts that contain it also contain monocular, double monocular, and blind os, so while it's perfectly fine to unify sigma and s, that one needs to be its own thing :D
<hattivat>
TIL unicode has an 'et' ligature ?
<soundnfury>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a titanium transpose hexaflexagon
<hattivat>
egg: well, if you were strict about, you could just unify them all with o
<egg>
hattivat: so really it depends how you try to make up criteria for unification
<hattivat>
yeah
<egg>
hattivat: it's kind of obvious that latin o, cyrillic o, and omicron must be unified; but what if you must encode a cyrillic manuscript from when they used those os with eyes? there knowing the language of this (single-language) text isn't enough to render things, it's not a simple ligature either (depends on whether the word is about eyes) so they need to be different codepoints
<hattivat>
well, yes
<hattivat>
but there are only a few such texts afaik
<soundnfury>
hattivat: can't ? be unified with ⁊? ;)
<hattivat>
well, if we are to unify with shorthand, then yeah
<hattivat>
though I'd think that shorthand should be it's own category ripe for separate unification
<hattivat>
just like all the non-vowel-spelling alphabets, such as Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac, etc.
<hattivat>
I think it was literally just one or two scribes who made them up
<hattivat>
so the only reason they are in the unicode standard is that someone working in the consortium is apparently my or egg's soul-brother/sister :P
<hattivat>
or someone else's from this channel, as IIRC people who like such things are strongly over-represented here
<kmath>
<Evertype> @anshumanpandey_ @BabelStone @Random_Guy_32 There is NO such requirement to maintain the name SHIN. If it is a LOGO… https://t.co/zSRacnPBfq
<SnoopJeDi>
#kspacademia is a rather strange attractor
<egg>
um, didn't mean to link that tweet in the thread
<kmath>
<BabelStone> @Evertype @Random_Guy_32 @anshumanpandey_ *one* phonogram only, used for transcribing Chinese 所 in a single source… https://t.co/la3Ht89nCz
<egg>
hattivat: there are also practical concerns (e.g. absent CJKV unifications you would have a ridiculous number of ideographic planes already, with mostly redundant stuff, whereas there's no such issue warranting GCL etc. unification)
<hattivat>
I mean, there is obviously less mutual intelligibility between Sütterlin and standard latin script than between Japanese Kanji and Chinese Traditional
<egg>
??????????????????????????
<hattivat>
egg: yeah, you could fit all the most important Latin 'hands' into unicode and still use far less space than Chinese
<hattivat>
I mean, uncial, carolingian, blackletter, humanistic, copperplate, etc.
<egg>
yeah
<soundnfury>
does Unicode need a script for the Dancing Men from Sherlock Holmes?
<hattivat>
I hope the Chinese are fine not having cursive glyps as a separate unicode plane
<hattivat>
that would be expensive
<egg>
!wpn rqou
* Qboid
gives rqou a Jeans hexaflexagon
* hattivat
googles dancing men
<hattivat>
meah, just 36 characters, insignificant
<hattivat>
s/meah/meh
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: meh, just 36 characters, insignificant
<soundnfury>
hattivat: and yet multiocular O is significant? *shrugs*
<soundnfury>
biab
<hattivat>
no, I mean insignificant as in not costly
<hattivat>
nobody would notice if it was added, so no problem as far as I'm concerned
<UmbralRaptor>
ꙮkhrana
<egg>
bofh: hattivat: re. the eyes, I guess monocular o is actually needed for several things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocular_O and even if it were only used in eye it's not just a one-off; double monocular o is similarly needed for the dual, and then you just sneak the one-off multiocular o in the same proposal because why the hell not
<egg>
I don't think multiocular o would pass on its own
<hattivat>
that could almost get a made-up Polish etymology, as "czyste" means clean
<bofh>
I'm a fan of "Saufend-on-Sji"
<hattivat>
yeah, and "Klekten-on-Sji"
<hattivat>
that "sji" thing is weird, though, I'd just spell it "sii" myself
<bofh>
Doesn't "si" make the s palatalo-alveolar instead of alveolar tho?
<bofh>
I don't quite recall the intricacies of Polish's utter mess of an alphabet but I seem to recall si and ś being pronounced the same.
<hattivat>
they are, that's true
<hattivat>
but I would interpret sii as, well, normal s with a double i
<hattivat>
as the śi combination would be hard to pronounce
<hattivat>
but you're probably right that this is why they chose to spell it sji
<hattivat>
to avoid ambiguity
<Qboid>
2d 0h 0m 0s left to event #12: 무궁화 5A호/Falcon 9 v1.2 [at 2017-10-30 19:34:00]. Say '!kountdown 12' for details
<hattivat>
pity the map isn't wide and/or detailed enough to have such pearl as "grenycz" and "łusterszer"
<bofh>
ROFL that latter one is amazing.
<hattivat>
(greenwich and worcestershire, respectively)
* egg
meows at Fiora and whitequark
<soundnfury>
Tanbrydž-Łelz!
<hattivat>
to be honest the mismatch between the English spelling and pronunciation of the matter is already amazing
<egg>
bofh: why does everyone hate me :-p
<hattivat>
transpiling it into Polish just makes it a bit more amazing :P
<bofh>
hattivat: so when I was younger I had learned a lot of words that I read in books but never knew proper pronounciations of, due to being shy/introverted/etc.
<hattivat>
s/matter/latter
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: to be honest the mismatch between the English spelling and pronunciation of the latter is already amazing
<bofh>
so uhm apparently people look at you weirdly when you pronounce Worcestershire exactly as it's written.
<hattivat>
bofh: oh man, there is a bunch of computer game names that I still can't get used to pronouncing properly
<bofh>
which, how the hell are you supposed to know that's incorrect?!
<hattivat>
because I started playing them before I learned to speak English properly
<egg>
bofh: and that's why the Gloucester meteor isn't called that :-/
<egg>
(clearly the company should have retained its earlier name, and this should have been the Gloucestershire meteor)
<soundnfury>
lympne_{x \rarrow \inf}
<hattivat>
so e.g. fallout will probably always be fʌlɔut to me, even though it's been over a decade since I've learned that it's fɔːlaʊt
<soundnfury>
hattivat: you and your high-falutin' IPA
<egg>
all hail IPA
<hattivat>
soundnfury: English, and it's retard shape-shifting attitude to vowels :P
<hattivat>
I wouldn't need IPA in Polish, except maybe for stuff like œ
<hattivat>
s/retard/retarded
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: soundnfury: English, and it's retarded shape-shifting attitude to vowels :P
<soundnfury>
hattivat: someone gave Middle English too many laxatives
<egg>
hattivat: amusingly in france we were taught IPA (at least what's needed for french) when learning to read/write
<egg>
if you're going to have a silly languages where couvent and couvent aren't pronounced the same, at least teach how to express that :D
<hattivat>
egg: I wonder whether that's a sign of progress and internationalization, or them just admitting defeat regarding your car-crash of a spelling system :P
<hattivat>
s/them just/just them
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: egg: I wonder whether that's a sign of progress and internationalization, or just them admitting defeat regarding your car-crash of a spelling system :P
<hattivat>
perhaps both
<hattivat>
they should teach IPA to Polish kids too when teaching digraphs
<egg>
hattivat: "les poules du couvent couvent", [lɛ pul dy kuvɑ̃ kuv], is always amusing
<hattivat>
seems amousing indeed
<hattivat>
although to me the most amusing part is the part it has in common with all French sentences - an incredible number of silent letters
<egg>
:D
<hattivat>
I mean, someone needs to run French through a proper compression algorithm
<egg>
hattivat: and it's even worse in spoken french
<hattivat>
I mean, Polish might have weird spelling, but at least it sound like it too :P
<hattivat>
s/sound/sounds
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: I mean, Polish might have weird spelling, but at least it sounds like it too :P
<egg>
hattivat: take "the window", "la fenêtre", [la fənɛtʁ] if you're reading poetry, but [lafnɛtʁ] usually
<hattivat>
so you guys have a special poetry-reading pronunciation standard? holy cow
<egg>
hattivat: otoh, "a window", "une fenêtre", [yn fənɛtʁ], can't be reasonably contracted to [ynfnɛtʁ], that's just too many consonants
<egg>
hattivat: yeah, you read "mute" vowels if they are followed by a consonant (in the same verse, not in the following one)
<egg>
hattivat: this is important because the language being unaccented, poetry is just 1. number of syllables 2. rhymes
<soundnfury>
hattivat: la vâche a panâche
<egg>
if you don't get 1. right there's not much left
<hattivat>
it's not too many, you French just have low consonant tolerance
<egg>
hattivat: what are you doing with those accents
<hattivat>
not as low as the Japanese, but still
<egg>
s/hattivat/soundnfury/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: soundnfury: what are you doing with those accents
<hattivat>
consonants power \,,,/ Blb vlk pln žbrnd zdrhl hrd z mlh Brd skrz vrch Smrk v čtvrť srn Krč
<UmbralRaptor>
I'm going to assume that's Serbian, rather than Polish.
<hattivat>
Czech, actually
<hattivat>
but you were right in that it isn't Polish
<UmbralRaptor>
Didn't realize that Czech could pull off the no vowel shenanigans.
<egg>
hattivat: so yeah, for poetry you pronounce all schwas that are between consonants of the same verse, and in speech pretty much you elide all schwas that don't result in triple consonants (even inside a word, which people don't actually teach you but it's what you do in practice, see above)
<hattivat>
you can't get this degree of vowel-less-ness in Polish because in Polish we would spell the close-mid central unrounded vowel that you naturally insert in Slavic languages when you get too many consonants in a row as 'y', which counts as vowel in our spelling
<hattivat>
but most languages to the south of us leave it out of their spelling even though they do pronounce it
<hattivat>
so using Polish spelling it would be someithing like "Bylb vylk plyn żybrynd zdryhl hyrd z mlyh Byrd skyrz vyrch smyrk v cztvyrt sryn krycz"
<hattivat>
UmbralRaptor: they can, they have a couple made-up sentences like that that they like to show off
<UmbralRaptor>
hrm
<egg>
hattivat: note also the trailing e in "fenêtre", the same applies to it: "the open window" "la fenêtre ouverte", [la fənɛtʁ uvɛʁt] (poetry) [la fnɛtʁ uvɛʁt] (speech), but "a closed window" "une fenêtre fermée", [ynə fənɛtʁə fɛʁme] (poetry), [yn fənɛtʁə fɛʁme] (speech)
<hattivat>
to make it easier: "close mid-central unrounded vowel" is basically the sound of i in 'hit'
<egg>
hattivat: alternatively you could drop the trailing [ʁə] and say [yn fənɛt fɛʁme]
<egg>
hattivat: note that [la fnɛt fɛʁme] has dropped quite a bit from fenêtre :D
<hattivat>
egg: and let me guess, even if you drop it casually, you never change the spelling, even in internet speak, because spelling is sacred?
<soundnfury>
hattivat: every vowel is sacred, every vowel is good
<hattivat>
that sort of attitude is why your spelling is the way it is in the first place ;p
<egg>
hattivat: yeah you wouldn't change the spelling
<hattivat>
thought so
<egg>
hattivat: in a sense it's like doing "has not -> hasn't" and still writing it "has not"
<hattivat>
in Indonesian you can shorten 'tidak' (no) to 'tak', 'nggak', or just 'ga', but people have no qualms about spelling it in a way that reflects their usage
<hattivat>
egg: yeah, good analogy with English, better than that exotic one I campe up with
<hattivat>
s/campe/came
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: egg: yeah, good analogy with English, better than that exotic one I came up with
<egg>
hattivat: you would change the spelling if you're writing lyrics (so the lyrics align with the notes and you don't have nonexistent syllables lying around)
<soundnfury>
egg: whereas the scots spell "hasnae" the way they say it ;)
<hattivat>
and that's the proper way to do it as far as I'm concerned
<egg>
or maybe in a book to mark strong orality, but it looks very odd, so you would definitely not do it in casual text-based conversation
<soundnfury>
egg: well there are some hymns in which "heav'n" is a single syllable
<hattivat>
in Indonesian it's weird to use the 'correct' spelling, people would make fun of you for 'talking like a dictionary'
<egg>
:D
<bofh>
hattivat: I thought it wasn't Czech doing y-insertion so much as in Czech r/ř/l can function as syllable nuclei?
<hattivat>
bofh: that is technically true, but to our ears that just sounds as "ry", "rzy" and "ly"
<egg>
whitequark: are kegs like Fiora's barrels
<hattivat>
or "yr", "yrz", "yl", depends on position in the word
<hattivat>
but in any case, it's a similar tongue movement I think, though I'm no phonologist
<hattivat>
in any case, to my ears it sounds like adding a softly-pronounced 'y' to the consonant
<hattivat>
which is why I think we would spell it that way if had words like that
<hattivat>
s/if/if we
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: which is why I think we would spell it that way if we had words like that
<hattivat>
so, yeah, that's mostly "y" sounds to my ears, obviously not the same as our 'y', but that's the closest approximation
<bofh>
heh. *listens*
<hattivat>
some sound more like schwas or even 'e', especially towards the end of the sentence, but in any case very few of these words sound like something I'd spell with no vowels at all
APlayer has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<egg>
yeah sounds like schwas to me
<egg>
hattivat: what do you mean by 'e'
<hattivat>
egg: probably ɛ ?
<hattivat>
or maybe ɪ
<hattivat>
phonetics and phonology were never a strong suit of mine
<hattivat>
something frontal and not open in any case ;p
* soundnfury
gives hattivat a ь
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: kegs are what cartoon characters store explosives in.
<bofh>
yep, sorta-schwas to me too.
<hattivat>
soundnfury: you mean miehkij (ok, 'myekhkiy') znak could be used to spell it? if we could turn back time, than sure
<hattivat>
btw, English transcription of Cyrillic is a crime against humanity, I cringe every time I see Чайко́вский spelt in English
<kmath>
<whitequark> "… I have no idea whether the guy is called Chebyshev, Tchebyshoff, Tschebyscheff or whatever" -- @eggleroy https://t.co/BzvVv8otZP
<hattivat>
the only thing that's even worse is pinyin
<hattivat>
and especially its use in languages other than English
<egg>
hattivat: well pinyin read by english speakers is quite shit already
<egg>
!u о́
<Qboid>
U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O (о)
<Qboid>
U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT (◌́)
<hattivat>
I'd never even consider buying a xiaomi phone because the monetary savings would not be worth the time wasted explaining and quarreling
* egg
thinks the accent is going to make whitequark grumpy
<hattivat>
egg: true, but they are simply unable to pronounce some Chinese sounds
<hattivat>
whereas we, funnily enough, are
<hattivat>
xiaomi is just "siałomi" in Polish spelling
<egg>
hattivat: yeah, but Wade-Giles for english or EFEO for french are less silly to start with
<hattivat>
you show that spelling to a Polish person, they read it, and a Chinese person will have no trouble understanding what was said
<hattivat>
Chinese "x" is a bit different from Polish si/ś, but close enough to be unambiguous
<hattivat>
egg: true, both in their own special ways
<hattivat>
same with q, it's almost identical to Polish ć
<hattivat>
so "wo hen xihuan qian" ("I like money a lot") would be "ło hen sihłan cien" in Polish spelling, super easy for any Polish person to pronounce
<hattivat>
but once you spell it in pinyin, it looks difficult and alien
<hattivat>
Russian are saner in this regard
<hattivat>
just transliterate everything phonetically and fuck native spelling
<hattivat>
s/sihłan/śihłan
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: so "wo hen xihuan qian" ("I like money a lot") would be "ło hen śihłan cien" in Polish spelling, super easy for any Polish person to pronounce
<hattivat>
just to make it unambiguous
<egg>
hattivat: seems 北京 yields pei ching in Wade-Giles, and pei king or pei tsing in EFEO, both of which sound somewhat reasonable
<hattivat>
they are reasonable for old-school pronunciation
<hattivat>
but not really for modern one
<egg>
hattivat: well clearly it should be pronounced Bắc Kinh :-p
<hattivat>
modern one is basically "bej-dźin" in Polish
<hattivat>
but of course we call it "Pekin" because Portuguese sailors
<egg>
hattivat: well from earlier probably, it's just how you read the ideographs in viet :-p
<hattivat>
egg: have you heard reconstructions of ancient Chinese?
<egg>
hattivat: the nam in nam kinh is the same as in việt nam :-p
<hattivat>
it's weird and makes total sense at the same time
<egg>
hattivat: I unfortunately don't even speak modern chinese >_>
<egg>
(and I have this strange situation where I don't speak viet in an unmistakable saigon accent)
<hattivat>
basically sounds like Khmer or Tibetan to my ears
<hattivat>
egg: I don't really speak modern Chinese either, just A1 level
<egg>
the writing being phonetic enough I can very laboriously read viet, pronouncing it correctly (for the south), and having no clue what the hell I'm reading :-p
<hattivat>
but I know what different languages sound like
<hattivat>
and ancient chinese reconstructions I've heard don't sound like modern chinese at all, basically
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: cats!
<hattivat>
they do sound a lot like other languages of the region, though
<kmath>
YouTube - Oracle Bone Text - Old Chinese Spoken (上古漢語)
<egg>
hattivat: also there are words where the variability in viet pronounciation is entirely confusing https://vi.wiktionary.org/wiki/Vinh#Ti.E1.BA.BFng_Vi.E1.BB.87t [vïŋ]=[jɨn] :-p
<kmath>
YouTube - 封神榜上古漢語配音 Fengsheng Bang dubbed with Old Chinese pronunciation
<hattivat>
sounds totally like Khmer to me
<hattivat>
well, almost totally
<hattivat>
egg: are these variations just regional, or do they overlap some class differences?
<egg>
hattivat: they're *strongly* regional, long country be of great length
<hattivat>
e.g. I'd assume Huế would be more aristocratic?
<egg>
(oh also there has been a sort of war along those regional lines as you may have heard)
<egg>
hattivat: hm, historically maybe
<egg>
hattivat: but mostly the important bits are saigon and hanoi (being at opposite ends they sound very different), where everyone agrees that in the middle they speak weird
<hattivat>
egg: yeah, I did hear
<hattivat>
ok, so a bit like British English, where lower classes and upper classes have a surprising amount of overlap in their speech and middle class uses weird foreign words like "pardon"? :P
<hattivat>
egg: actually, what is the story with Saigon being Viet at all?
<hattivat>
I mean, the land to the North of it used to be Austronesian
<hattivat>
and everything around it used to be Khmer
<hattivat>
since from what you say I assume there are well-established southern varieties of Vietnamese, that would suggest Saigon has been Vietnamese for quite a while
<hattivat>
"In 1623, King Chey Chettha II of Cambodia (1618–28) allowed Vietnamese refugees fleeing the Trịnh–Nguyễn civil war in Vietnam to settle in the area of Prey Nokor and to set up a customs house there."
<egg>
conquering cham and khmer bits
<hattivat>
hmm, that wasn't too nice of the Vietnamese
<hattivat>
I bit like the history of East Prussia becoming German
<egg>
(and once vietnam has the length it has, having the capital in the middle makes sense)
<hattivat>
yeah, basically the same situation
<hattivat>
once Poland grew to a big size and united with Lithuania, having the capital in what used to be northeastern outskirts of the country made sense
<kmath>
<sprjrx> Buddy just blew my mind: give interviewees the problems the day before. You know, like the real world. Come in ready to talk about it.
<UmbralRaptor>
smol countries
<hattivat>
you'd have to prepare problems that are actually worth talking about
<hattivat>
instead of simple questions that one could google an answer for easily
<egg>
hattivat: viet is fun as a language too, what with being in a different family from its neighbours
<UmbralRaptor>
Well, yes. This is also "interview to get a good candidate" rather than put up a gauntlet to filter the horde of starving graduates.
<egg>
hattivat: except khmer I guess?
<egg>
hattivat: but then strong chinese influences
<egg>
hattivat: so you end up with fun things like 馬 having the chữ Nôm reading ngựa (etymology: ??? essentially https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ng%E1%BB%B1a) as well as the sino-vietnamese (chữ Hán) reading mã
<hattivat>
egg: I just learned from google translate that Japanese reading of 習近平 is a homophone of "scholarship" in Japanese
<egg>
:D
<hattivat>
I wonder if that pun is used in a tome of ムダヅモ無き改革
<hattivat>
(an epic satirical manga in which e.g. pope Benedict XVI plays mahjong against Hitler (who of course arrived from the far side of the moon) to decide the fate of the world)
<egg>
hattivat: oh wow vi wikipedia actually gives IPA for his name, [ɕǐ tɕînpʰǐŋ]
* egg
thanks the vi wikipedia writers and stabs pinyin with a pointed stick
<hattivat>
:)
<egg>
hattivat: and yeah, reading pʰǐŋ as ɓɨn sounds Fun :D
<egg>
oh fun "Unlike many Native American, African, and Chinese languages, Vietnamese tones do not rely solely on pitch contour."
<Fiora>
oh gods vietnamese. vietnamese is extra fun because the french mucked up the whole writing system
<egg>
Fiora: yeah, which is why nobody properly supports the V part of CJKV :'(
<egg>
Fiora: it's quite interesting that it *works* though, while not being entirely phonetic (besides the obvious thing with consonants merged to [j] in the south, I absolutely love the mess with mít and mứt) it's enough that I can look at any word (which I don't know in general, because I don't actually speak the language) and pronounce it correctly (in the Saigon pronuncation)
* whitequark
eats the moth
<egg>
(on mít and mứt, the hilarious thing is that mít is pronounced in Sài Gòn like mứt is in Hà Nội)