<Thomas>
You can now subscribe to various Kopernicus events
<Thomas>
and run code
<Sigma88>
cool
<Sigma88>
something I asked for years ago :D
<Thomas>
For Example: GameEvents.Find<EventData<PSystem>>("Kopernicus.Injector.PostLoad").Add(s => Debug.Log(s.rootBody.name)); would print the name of the root body after the system loaded
<Sigma88>
cool
<Sigma88>
btw I have a new tidbit of info that might be useful for the ksc scene issue when reparenting kerbin
<Sigma88>
in GN when I add the light curves the ksc scene is completely dark, which means the planet is far from all the stars
Poodmund has joined #Kopernicus
<Sigma88>
most likely it's in orbit around the galactic core
<Sigma88>
in the stock kerbin orbit
<Poodmund>
o/ I have a quick question related to the solar panel tracking. What determines the source for sunlight that the panels track? For the next release of GPP OhioBob has written intensity curves for the starlight from the main star and the secondary, far off star but it still seems like a hit or miss as to which star the panels will decide to track.
<Sigma88>
if you mean intensity curves those only affect visual effect
<Sigma88>
not ec/s generation
<Sigma88>
iirc solar panels will automatically face the star which provides the most ec/s
<Sigma88>
but don't quote me on that
<Poodmund>
Hmmm, we have the main star set up to emit significantly more energy (we think) but panels still track the secondary star sometimes. Even to the stage where you can have different panels on the same vessel tracking the different stars.
<Thomas>
Poodmund: They try to track the star that gives the most energy *in their current position*
<Thomas>
So if you force them to face the bigger star they should track it
<Poodmund>
But if the panels can rotate to track a star that would potentially give more ec/s, should they not do so?
<Thomas>
They should do that, yes
<Sigma88>
poodmund did you try rotating the craft to make the panels face the sun and see if the ec/s goes up?
<Sigma88>
(before they rotate back to face grannus)
<Poodmund>
I am creating a brand new install now to ensure the issue is consistent. I've had times when the panels have been tracking Grannus even though Gael is occluding that star.
<Sigma88>
I don't think occlusions are a thing
<Sigma88>
but don't quote me on that
<Poodmund>
"Blocked by Gael"...?
<Sigma88>
ah sorry
<Sigma88>
I thought you meant by ciro
<Poodmund>
Ah, haha, no worries.
<Poodmund>
I just don't like to see this issue be posted numerous times in the Kopernicus thread with people always mentioning it with GPP. :/
<Sigma88>
yeah I am starting to get annoied with all those people that report planet packs issues on kopernicus thread
<Sigma88>
not that this is a GPP issue
<Sigma88>
but they have no way of knowing
<Sigma88>
or maybe it even is an issue with GPP
<Poodmund>
95% of the time its incorrectly written configs on the planet modders side.
<Sigma88>
I have yet to understand what could be the cause
<Thomas>
Well, technically it is a Kopernicus issue, but there simply is no better solution
<Thomas>
It is a problem with the logic Kopernicus hacks on top of KSP
<Sigma88>
what issue is it?
<Thomas>
to make multiple stars a thing
<Sigma88>
yeah but why is the solar panel not behaving as expected in gpp?
<Sigma88>
Poodmund: could you send me the cfgs for ciro and grannus?
<Poodmund>
Imgur is useless with bad upload speeds. It doesn't believe I'm not a robot. :(
<Poodmund>
https://imgur.com/a/zkMxV Brand new install with latest Kopernicus 1.3.0-6, MFI 1.2.4, MM 2.8.1 and latest dev build of of GPP
<Poodmund>
It shows how panels will track the star they are initially oriented towards even if they give little or no EC.
<Sigma88>
I need to test this in a more controlled environment
<Sigma88>
you have too many customizations
<Sigma88>
I'll try with just ciro and grannus
<Sigma88>
actually
<Sigma88>
just grannus should suffice
<Sigma88>
I assume the difference between ciro and the sun are minimal
<Sigma88>
now I have some time to test it
<Poodmund>
Thats literally just barebones GPP, Kopernicus, MFI and MM.
<Poodmund>
I think Ciro is slightly less luminous that KSP's Sun.
<Sigma88>
still, you don't need 99% of GPP
<Sigma88>
just grannus
<Poodmund>
Could Kopernicus run a low tick rate poll for each panel, querying: Run query against all stars to see which provide most energy at current position, list stars in order of potential EC generation, am I occluded by anything with regards to most energy giving star?, if no, orient panels to that star, if yes am I occluded by anything with regards to
<Poodmund>
(most energy giving star)-1? ... etc.
GregroxMun has joined #Kopernicus
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Sigma88 opened issue #214: Solar Panel Targetting https://git.io/v50hA
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Sigma88 commented on issue #214: tagging people who might be interested... https://git.io/v50jv
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Sigma88 commented on issue #214: tagging people who might be interested... https://git.io/v50jv
<Poodmund>
Thank you for your testing Sigma88 :D
<Poodmund>
Yeah it seems to be that it seems to rely on exposure even if the potential EC generation is lower than another potential light source.
<Sigma88>
no that's not the problem
<Sigma88>
the problem is that the solar panels track the wrong star
<Sigma88>
if you force them towards the better star the exposure is still showing compared to the dimmer star
<Sigma88>
for some reason
<Sigma88>
I may have made a mistake in my report
<Sigma88>
let me check
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Poodmund commented on issue #214: Test environment not as controlled but still relevant. Using KSP 1.3.0, Kopernicus 1.3.0-6, MFI 1.2.4, MM 2.8.1 and latest GPP dev build.... https://git.io/v50jW
<Thomas>
Poodmund: It already does that
<Sigma88>
actually it is fixed now
<Sigma88>
idk what happened
<Sigma88>
but it works fine
<Sigma88>
>_>
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Poodmund commented on issue #214: Test environment not as controlled but still relevant. Using KSP 1.3.0, Kopernicus 1.3.0-6, MFI 1.2.4, MM 2.8.1 and latest GPP dev build.... https://git.io/v50jW
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Sigma88 commented on issue #214: I did some more tests and it turns out that, if you rotate the craft so that the solar panels face the brightest star, then they will start tracking that one... https://git.io/v50jb
<Sigma88>
Poodmund: I guess that's a decision thomas took on purpose, and there are no bugs
<Poodmund>
I agree with your edit, thats the behaviour I am seeing too.
<Sigma88>
thomas, I would like to try to improve this system
<Sigma88>
I would like to try adding some features like manual star selection for tracking
<Sigma88>
so, you get the automatic tracking which is the one you are using now
<Poodmund>
Its not a bug. I don't think its not working as intended... I just think the intended behaviour has some caveats when it comes to some situations when playing.
<Sigma88>
or manual tracking if you select a star in the solar panel's window
<Sigma88>
like this
<Poodmund>
Manual selection of star tracking would give you the ability to get around that issue.
<Sigma88>
where you can choose between "Auto" and whatever other star is available
<Poodmund>
Yeah possibly << and >> buttons that scroll through "Auto", "Star #1", "Star 2", "Star n+1".
<Qboid>
[#1] title: Missing variable in PQSMod_CelestialBodyTransform. | Should have the 'body' var set to the planet's Celestialbody component.... | https://github.com/Kopernicus/Kopernicus/issues/1
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] StollD pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v5EeC
<Kopernicus>
Kopernicus/master 65991d2 Dorian Stoll: Select the current star based on flowRate instead of sunAOA
<Thomas>
Or a small but nice window that opens when you click a button
<Qboid>
Starting build #119 for job Kopernicus-Dev (previous build: SUCCESS)
<Thomas>
Because I think especially in GN or TBG, scrolling could be an utter pain
<Sigma88>
also, is it really necessary to use MM to add the solarpanels thing?
<Sigma88>
can't you just replace them using the plugin?
<Sigma88>
even better, make the kopernicus solar panels inherit the parameters from the stock solar panels? so if other plugins look for "SolarPanels" they still find kopernicus solar panels and might be able to load the information they need from them?
<Thomas>
That is basically what Kopernicus is doing right now
<Sigma88>
ok
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] StollD pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v5EvU
<TWG>
I've got a rather strange question - is there any information available on adding experiments to LandScatters? I dug through the ModLoader code for LandControl, but that didn't make me much wiser.
<Sigma88>
no documentation as far as I know
<TWG>
Like, I know I have to set the boolean 'science' to true and that it involves the 'Experiment' node, but I don't know what to do with the Experiment node, and how to add the definitions
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] TheWhiteGuardian opened issue #215: Undocumented config node 'Experiment' in terrain scatter configuration https://git.io/v5EJ0
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] StollD commented on issue #215: ```... https://git.io/v5EJE
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] StollD commented on issue #215: ```... https://git.io/v5EJE
<Thomas>
Sigma88: Well, it just needs to provide a small bit that might be ignored in the rendering, and Kopernicus will choose it
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Sigma88 commented on issue #215: for completion's sake, the name of the MODULE is... https://git.io/v5EJV
<Sigma88>
Thomas: so if 2 stars are visible the best one will be chosen
<Sigma88>
but if one is not visible will not be accounted for
<Sigma88>
correct?
<Thomas>
no, not visible
<Thomas>
Kopernicus will always check all stars
<Sigma88>
ok
<Sigma88>
so it doesn't work
<Thomas>
however, if a star is not visible, it is unlikely that it will be powerful enough
<Sigma88>
because it keeps facing the less energetic star
<Sigma88>
by visible I mean that it is within the forward facing 180°
<Thomas>
Oh, you mean that
<Thomas>
yes, Kopernicus checks that
<Thomas>
and if a panel isnt facing the star it cannot get ec from it
<Sigma88>
ok
<Thomas>
Kopernicus sees that and chooses the star that would work
<Sigma88>
ok, so the stars behind are never considered?
<Thomas>
They are, but the values that are calculated for them disqualify them
<Sigma88>
because if I put the two stars 180° apart in the sky, and the solar panels are facing the wrong star
<Thomas>
If you turn the vessel around it *should* work
<Sigma88>
yeah that works
<Sigma88>
I think this is enough for now
<Thomas>
Yeah. Thats an inconvinient, but the best way of doing it
<Sigma88>
in case we can add a manual targettng button like you suggested
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] TheWhiteGuardian commented on issue #215: So, to clarify: treat the Experiment node like a science module from a part? Ergo, one can just crosscopy from a 'scientific part' and edit the values, then set up experiment definitions with:... https://git.io/v5EUY
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] StollD commented on issue #215: Yes https://git.io/v5EU3
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] TheWhiteGuardian commented on issue #215: Alright. I'll try it, then post the results here. https://git.io/v5EUG
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] Sigma88 commented on issue #215: except the EXPERIMENT_DEFINITION you are looking for doesn't exist so you need to create a new one https://git.io/v5EUZ
<Thomas>
I just had an evil idea
<Thomas>
If the version lock from Kopernicus is triggered, I should just hack into MM and enable the nyan cat
<Sigma88>
should be pretty easy
<Sigma88>
I would also add some extra boxes just in case
<Sigma88>
when you click on "start game"
<Poodmund>
Thomas the only problem is that you can't turn the vessel around to face the other star when you have 0 EC. In vanilla KSP when you have 0 EC, the panels will turn to orient to the Sun to generate EC for you to get out of the problem. However, with the current behaviour, this does not occur so players become stranded.
<Sigma88>
Thomas: that's the n-body physics nyan cat
<Thomas>
Yeah
<Thomas>
Thats a good symbol for what happens if you mess with Kopernicus
<Thomas>
I like the idea
<Sigma88>
hahaha
<egg|z|egg>
Thomas: need to tell sarbian to use principia to simulate the n-nyancat system
<Poodmund>
Yeah if you can implement a manual override, it becomes a moot point.
<Sigma88>
a "moo point"
<egg|z|egg>
mooo
<Sigma88>
a cow's opinion
<Sigma88>
it doesn't matter
<Poodmund>
haha
<Poodmund>
Brilliant. I haven't seen that in ages.
* UmbralRaptor
moos at egg|z|egg
<Kopernicus>
[Kopernicus] TheWhiteGuardian commented on issue #215: Gotcha. I've set up the Experiment{} node, and the EXPERIMENT_DEFINITION. Testing it now. https://git.io/v5ETT
<Sigma88>
I wonder which is the most used planet pack
<Sigma88>
it has got to be RSS or GPP or OPM
<Sigma88>
!g random crappy planet pack for ksp
<Qboid>
Sigma88: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/164427-random-generated-planet-stats-different-than-just-new-planets/ [Random-Generated Planet stats? (different than just New Planets ...] (13000 results found, took 0.69s)
<Qboid>
Sigma88: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/152136-v140-galileos-planet-pack-official-release-ksp-130/ [[v1.4.0] Galileo's Planet Pack: Official Release [KSP 1.3.0] - Add-on ...] (35 results found, took 0.50s)
<Sigma88>
:D
<Sigma88>
!g sigmaest planet pack for ksp
<Qboid>
Sigma88: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/152136-v140-galileos-planet-pack-official-release-ksp-130/ [[v1.4.0] Galileo's Planet Pack: Official Release [KSP 1.3.0] - Add-on ...] (34 results found, took 0.48s)
<Sigma88>
!g gregroxest planet pack for ksp
<Qboid>
Sigma88: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/152136-v140-galileos-planet-pack-official-release-ksp-130/ [[v1.4.0] Galileo's Planet Pack: Official Release [KSP 1.3.0] - Add-on ...] (34 results found, took 0.48s)
<UmbralRaptor>
hah
<Thomas>
has galileo made a contract with google?
<Poodmund>
GPP is probably the most un-Gregrox pack out there.
<GregroxMun>
Un-Gregrox?
<GregroxMun>
He's still Gameslinx
egg|z|egg is now known as egg|zz|egg
egg|zz|egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<Poodmund>
Yeah GPP meshes exist almost purely off a heightmap texture.
<GregroxMun>
whereas I use procedural and maps, for a cartoonier appearance
<Poodmund>
From what I gather you enjoy the challenge of the procedural generation within the noise libraries KSP has to offer.
<Poodmund>
Its like New Horizons and GPP are antithesis to each other.
<GregroxMun>
NH2 is a masterpiece honestly
<GregroxMun>
In every way but some realism aspects
<GregroxMun>
KillAshley really outdid himself there
<GregroxMun>
I wish some big youtuber would pick up Alternis Kerbol Rekerjiggered for a serious
<GregroxMun>
no
<GregroxMun>
a series
<GregroxMun>
I'm tired of seeing GPP everywhere
<GregroxMun>
NovaSilisko's off-and-on KSP planet project, Raven, will be something special. Beautiful, well made, all that. I hope it gets the attention it deserves when it's eventually released.
<Poodmund>
The KSP Planet Mods Discord is a shit show of pre-teens swimming through a sea of Kopernicus errors whilst spouting off homophobic and sexually related insults left, right and center... all whilst worshiping the cult lord Gameslinx.
<Thomas>
"KSP Planet Mods" "shit show" I am interested :P
<GregroxMun>
give me a link to that discord
<GregroxMun>
i want to see what would happen if I show up
<GregroxMun>
or just check it out, whichever would bruise my ego less
<Poodmund>
err one sec, trying to find the invite link.
<Poodmund>
You get announced on there when you join though.
<Thomas>
Really? Never had that on discord
<Thomas>
But tbh, I think they would notice it rather fast anyway
<GregroxMun>
i dont have permission to send messages
<GregroxMun>
wait nvm
<GregroxMun>
that was messages
<Thomas>
Oh god dyno
<Thomas>
That bot is utter junk
<Poodmund>
I've been on there a couple of days... tried to help out a bit. I don't think hardly anyone understands anything I say.
<GregroxMun>
gameslinx's got my back <3
<Poodmund>
Hold my beer whilst I stroke your ego. :D
<Thomas>
I am thinking about writing "I've been literally making your planets" :P
<Poodmund>
I wouldn't be proud of what they've mostly been creating. Think interbred, simpleton Frankenstein planets and you'll not be far off.
<Poodmund>
But hey, everyone starts somewhere so good on 'em.
<GregroxMun>
My first planet was so terrible it didn't even work
<Thomas>
My first planet was... weird
<GregroxMun>
Maybe one day I should re-do and add to the Planet Nine / End mod.
<GregroxMun>
I ended up taking surprisingly large portions of P9/End and turning it into Delsip in the Heavenly System mod which will probably never be released officially
<Thomas>
"Someone said OA doesnt need a own server because its so easy to code" hahaha
<GregroxMun>
Did the OA guy say that?
<Thomas>
No, someone said that, the OA guy cried, and made an alt account.
<Sigma88>
I'm back
<Sigma88>
I see I missed all the fun
<Thomas>
You can still join the shitshow :P
<Sigma88>
I am joining right now
<Poodmund>
you missed some school ground drama
<GregroxMun>
yeah lol
<Sigma88>
what?
<Poodmund>
SamBelanger (from the KSP forums), it doesn't seem like English is his first language... doesn't seem to have great social skills. Over the last few days they've been isolating him and he ended up leaving the Discord server (got upset about it) and then made alt accounts and joined back.
<Sigma88>
-.-
<Sigma88>
he is messaging me
<Sigma88>
wtf
<Poodmund>
Haha
<Thomas>
Poodmund: His first language is french
<Poodmund>
Yeah I kinda guessed.
<GregroxMun>
what was he saying when he was messaging you
<Poodmund>
Sigma88 left.... Eswabon: :sadface:
<Sigma88>
hi, I am SamBelanger
<Sigma88>
then I left
<Sigma88>
didn't block him tho
<Sigma88>
so I guess he can still pm me
<Sigma88>
I don't have any idea of who he is
<GregroxMun>
He's the Optional Atmospheres creator
<GregroxMun>
a 5 minute mod that adds atmospheres to microbaric planets
<GregroxMun>
And he took it way too far
<Thomas>
with a discord, an irc, a website, 5 download mirrors and 2 wikis
<GregroxMun>
For a mod that I could do better in a day
<Thomas>
My cat could do that better
<Sigma88>
I remember that mod
<Sigma88>
I think people are pretty quick to hate stuff
<Sigma88>
he is just a guy trying to learn how to mod and shares his stuff
<Poodmund>
Yeah I dunno why people lambasted the concept.
<Sigma88>
it's not his fault if squad decides to put a crappy mod on display
<Sigma88>
and all those dumbasses that say the mod is shit, guess what? it's not mandatory
<Poodmund>
Mods can be dumb and silly... it doesn't matter. NyanCat engines... brilliant.
<GregroxMun>
the concept is pretty lame tbh. The stock atmosphere doesn't even go to the pressures that, say, Pluto would have at the surface.
<GregroxMun>
But he's entitled to make it
<Sigma88>
yeah
<Sigma88>
that's the point
<GregroxMun>
But he really started cramming it down some people's throats, spamming links to his discord.
<Sigma88>
it's much worse a mod that promises a lot of cool stuff and then doesn't even load
<Thomas>
Also, even if you hate it you dont need to say that directly to him
<Thomas>
If you rage in private: fine
<Thomas>
But when talking to people like him who aren't used to it, you should be a bit diplomatic
<Sigma88>
honestly, if you have to rage about something that doesn't affect you in the slightest....
<Poodmund>
On a similar note... it made me chuckle the other day... RoverDude on stream always talks up Nertea about how good his modelling is, how well made the mods and how high the texture quality is etc. etc. Then recently Nertea has been calling out SQUAD with the expansion preview material saying how bad it is, how SQUAD has no direction and all this. I
<GregroxMun>
I don't like to be angry about it because RoverDude seems like a nice guy for the most part and a competent programmer, but his models are really bad
<GregroxMun>
Sigma88: You can ride Thomas the Tank Engine's trains in America at various Day Out With Thomas events.
<GregroxMun>
also in Britain
<GregroxMun>
in Britain they're real repainted tank engines dressed as Thomas
<GregroxMun>
they also have other characters from the show
<GregroxMun>
in America they have three Thomas-s: A rebuilt american steam engine, and two shells pushed by diesel locomotives
<GregroxMun>
The Japanese thomas is freakin' weird
<GregroxMun>
Sorry for the pings, Thomas
<Sigma88>
lol
<Poodmund>
RoverDude's models aren't bad. They align with vanilla... well, actually they have higher fidelity, usually make more logical sense. The stock material is just pretty lacking at this stage.
<GregroxMun>
They don't align with vanilla.
<GregroxMun>
The stock parts aren't perfect
<Sigma88>
is roverdude still squad?
<GregroxMun>
yes
<Poodmund>
Contractor.
<GregroxMun>
he's doing all the Making History parts
<Poodmund>
Not SQUAD
<GregroxMun>
oh right
<Sigma88>
ok but he is still working on stock ksp
<Sigma88>
that was my question
<Sigma88>
do you think making history will be moddable?
<GregroxMun>
They'll probably be protective of the parts, even more than the stock parts
<Poodmund>
Yes. Quite heavily involved. I think he holds a lot of weight in the team because he's been around for one of the longest times in the Dev team since a lot left and he is very capable, wide ranging skill set.
<GregroxMun>
(If it's worth anything in terms of RD's stockalike-ness, NovaSilisko does not consider RD's parts to be stockalike and NS made the stock rocket parts in the first place)
<Poodmund>
Not sure how many Physics-based enthusiasts they still have on the team though
<Poodmund>
With all due respect the stock game parts look pretty shit compared to what is on offer out there.
<Poodmund>
Objectively.
<Sigma88>
the stock style is good
<Sigma88>
but the quality is not
<Poodmund>
Exactly.
<Sigma88>
the best part packs are those that can understand the strenghts of the stockalike style
<GregroxMun>
And not the weaknesses
<Sigma88>
well
<GregroxMun>
Well, understands them
<GregroxMun>
but doesn't use them
<Sigma88>
yeah
<Sigma88>
:D
<GregroxMun>
In terms of planet design, I think NovaSilisko and KillAshley are about tied in that regard as 1st in class
<GregroxMun>
Claira was the first to do Stockalike good
<GregroxMun>
for parts
<Poodmund>
I love Eeloo, who made Eeloo?
<GregroxMun>
Nova
<GregroxMun>
All of the stock system is Nova, with some modifications by Squad later in the case of Duna and Eve.
<GregroxMun>
and Kerbin
<GregroxMun>
Duna got the short end of the stick
<Poodmund>
Well I don't really think Kerbin can be called much of a creation.
<GregroxMun>
Kerbin isn't as procedural as you might expect.
<GregroxMun>
Quite a few of Kerbin's features are painted in manually.
<Poodmund>
Its the LibNoise tutorial example
<GregroxMun>
The main shape is
<GregroxMun>
but the heightmap is heavily edited
<Thomas>
Tbh, I think the reason why the stock system was never modfiied that much is that nobody except Mu and maybe nova understood it fully :P
<Sigma88>
the crater is one of those featres
<GregroxMun>
^^
<GregroxMun>
No
<GregroxMun>
^ ^
<GregroxMun>
Thomas you're right
<Poodmund>
Was it Mu who did the Unite 2013 presentation with Harvester?
<Thomas>
Yes
<Thomas>
Mu is the guy who wrote the PQS
<Poodmund>
Yeah. I knew it was a guy named Mike, didn't realise Mu was him.
<Sigma88>
is mu still on the team?
<Thomas>
No
<GregroxMun>
No one is
<Poodmund>
Mu left when the exodus happened
<Poodmund>
"Signed, in no particular order, your Kerbal developers Mike (Mu), Bill (Taniwha), Nathanael (NathanKell), Sébastien (Sarbian), Jim (Romfarer), Brian (Arsonide), Chris (Porkjet), Nathan (Claw)."
<GregroxMun>
That's part of why I've been saying that I don't trust Squad to add new planets.
<Poodmund>
Damn, that list of names. Sad.
<GregroxMun>
i know
<GregroxMun>
I wish Squad didn't abuse their developers
<GregroxMun>
maybe they've changed now, who knows
<Poodmund>
Well some of them went to Valve.
<Thomas>
that said, it damaged my image of roverdude heavily when all devs crunched to hell, but his mods had zero-day releases
<Poodmund>
They were all contractors.
<Thomas>
"This is my competitor AtmosphericExtra" Oh. My. God.
<Sigma88>
to be fair you don't know anything about how a videogame is made so this might be normal
<GregroxMun>
atmosphericExtra is a PQS Material Type
<GregroxMun>
Maybe it is, but Squad isn't a game developer.
<GregroxMun>
They had the chance to be different
<GregroxMun>
but remember that HarvesteR hated his job at Squad before starting KSP.
<Sigma88>
not originally, but it is in this context
<GregroxMun>
And I suspect that Squad does it worse than normal
<GregroxMun>
For instance, NovaSilisko wasn't even paid close to minimum wage
<GregroxMun>
(Most of my stories are relating to Nova because we talk often on Skype)
<Poodmund>
Thats not SQUAD's issue.
<GregroxMun>
yes it is
<GregroxMun>
Squad was the ones paying him.
<Poodmund>
Why accept payment terms of a contract if you're not happy with them.
<Thomas>
And if 7 people dont sleep to fix bugs and one decides to work on his mods instead of helping, I dont care whats usual in the industry
<Poodmund>
If I interviewed for a job and was offered a contract and I wasn't happy with the financial terms, I'd renegotiate or reject it.
<GregroxMun>
It was very informal for Nova
<GregroxMun>
he talked on skype with Felipe
<GregroxMun>
and way paided informally by paypal
<GregroxMun>
officially he was never an employee or a contractor
<GregroxMun>
despite doing a lot of the same work as one
<GregroxMun>
"why not just stop?" he did.
<Poodmund>
Then he contractually was owed no financial compensation for his work....?
<GregroxMun>
I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about morality.
<Poodmund>
I'm sorry but it sounds like a lot of naivety in a business sense
<GregroxMun>
and maybe I don't have a good hill to stand on for this argument so fuck it
<Poodmund>
Commercial world =/= Good moral fiber.
<Poodmund>
Dog eat dog world bud. Thats reality, you have to watch out for yourself. By all means do good and be nice, but make sure you don't let yourself get run over.
<Poodmund>
Anyway KSP is TakeTwo's money tree now.
<Sigma88>
to be honest I don't think this applies here
<Sigma88>
maybe everybody is trying to screw you over in gaming media
<Sigma88>
but here there is no "screw over"
<Sigma88>
there's just somebody working on something without knowing if and how much he would be paid
<Sigma88>
(from what you say greg)
<Sigma88>
if someone from SQUAD wanted to integrate my mod in stock KSP and proposed to pay me 100$ for, let's say SB
<Sigma88>
and I accepted
<Sigma88>
why would I be entitled to cry about how low payment they gave me for my mod?
<GregroxMun>
But here he wasn't working on his free time
<GregroxMun>
he was working full time on KSP instead of getting a job that can actually pay the bills
<GregroxMun>
could he have quit, yes, and eventually he did
<GregroxMun>
but we lost a great developer that day
<Poodmund>
Without a contract in place... thats imbecilic.
<Sigma88>
there's a difference between someone screwing you and someone doing exactly what he promised
<Poodmund>
Unless he was doing it with the intent that it would develop his portfolio enough to move onto somewhere much greater in a short time period.
<Sigma88>
exactly my point
<Poodmund>
It comes across to me that quite a lot of "Game Devs" get involved in "Game Dev"'ing without treating it as a business venture but as a hobby.
<Thomas>
That always happens when you make your hobby your job
<Sigma88>
I am going to start an internship as a surgeon as a hobby
<Sigma88>
:D
<Sigma88>
that's a good way to get some stuff in your CV to be honest
<Sigma88>
and you can do everything with very little economic investment
<Sigma88>
it's not like you can do this for every job
<Sigma88>
I have no idea how much those stuff will matter in a cv tho
<Poodmund>
Practical application. If you can show you've worked on or produced an example of work that exists within the industry to a decent standard it goes a long way.
<Sigma88>
would mods work?
<Poodmund>
Shows you actually understand the application of what you'll be expected to do rather than just be a booksmart with no common sense.
<Sigma88>
I assume having your work included in the game would be way better
<Poodmund>
Quite a number of extensive mod developers go on to getting good jobs in the games industry if they want to go that way
<Poodmund>
Look at Half Life, Skyrim, XCOM.
<Sigma88>
half life :(
<Poodmund>
The Long War guys even got their own studio out of it.
<Thomas>
Yeah, developing big mods for popular games can get you into the industry pretty fast.
<Thomas>
I think Mu was the last one of the core team that wasnt recruited from the modding community
<GregroxMun>
yes
<Thomas>
GregroxMun: Have you seen the screenshot from the Optional Atmospheres discord?
<GregroxMun>
I am gonna be a space astronaut man for halloween
<GregroxMun>
no
<Thomas>
14 text channels
<Thomas>
5 voice channels
<GregroxMun>
oh geez
<Poodmund>
Hah, I asked RoverDude on steam once who was responsible or had the understanding of the planetary PQS system now (as I asked him a question about it and he said he did not know) and his response was along the lines of, "I'm not too sure". I wonder if there is anyone on the team who could 'make' a new planet tomorrow at this stage. An intriguing qu
<Poodmund>
ery.
<Thomas>
JPLRepo probably, he seems to be quite smart
<Thomas>
But.. noone has an idea who is working on KSP
<Thomas>
because they hide their devs now
<GregroxMun>
If Squad asked me to make planets for them for below minimum wage I'd do it.
<GregroxMun>
and regret it probably
<GregroxMun>
but i'd do it
pkmniako has joined #Kopernicus
<pkmniako>
o/
<GregroxMun>
o/
<pkmniako>
That was fast
<Poodmund>
o/
<Thomas>
You would loose all the utilities and fixes Kopernicus provides
<Poodmund>
Hah! True
<pkmniako>
HeightColorMaps
<pkmniako>
How the Altitude works
<Thomas>
And tbh, I would advise noone to sign anything with Squad
<Poodmund>
*Take Two Interactive?
<Thomas>
pkmniako: Lowest point is 0, highest point is 1
<pkmniako>
Thanks!
<pkmniako>
*Vall .cfg, you LIED TO ME*
<Thomas>
Poodmund: Take Two owns the IP. Squad is a contracted development studio
<Thomas>
So you would work for Squad
<Poodmund>
But now the old SQUAD owners no longer have anything to do with KSP... who's signature is at the bottom of your contract offer?
<Poodmund>
The transparent group that SQUAD used to be in terms of employees is no longer the case... except I know that one guy is called BJ.
<Thomas>
They have. It is like if your phone broke and you send it to a company that should repair it. The company decides who should actually repair your phone, not you.
<Thomas>
It's exactly the same with TT and the IP. They have a contract with Squad, that Squad develops KSP in exchange for money
<Thomas>
Take Two has a say about the general direction of the game, but not about employees or smaller features
<Thomas>
Thats Squads decision, they have the ability to make some decisions on their own.
<Thomas>
So you work for Squad, Squad works for Take Two
<Thomas>
At least thats how I would imagine it
<Poodmund>
I would assume that also.
<Poodmund>
You would have thought that TT would assign some sort of consultant to SQUAD though?
<Thomas>
Yeah, thats probably true
<Poodmund>
I guess they already have a lead game director though.
<GregroxMun>
There are too few good planet modders
<Thomas>
Its more like there are too many bad ones
<GregroxMun>
If TWG does do planets and I don't like them, and I tell him to fix them and he does and I still don't like them, then that just means I have to redo all of his planets
<GregroxMun>
Because it would be rude to cast him out of the project
<GregroxMun>
Especially after he does work on it
<GregroxMun>
but I want the mod to actually look and work well
<Sigma88>
that's the problem with those huge multi-person projects
<Thomas>
I think the problem with Kopernicus is, that there is no universal tutorial for it - there can't be one
<Poodmund>
Ah so Kopernicus has Perlin, RMF and Billow. Didn't realise there was the 3. Thanks. ;)
<Thomas>
Because you can do everything you want in 10 different ways of doing it
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<GregroxMun>
It also requires creativity (so it's not repetitive planets), scientific knowledge (so that it makes sense and isn't just bullcrap), and artistic skill (so that the planets actually look good) in addition to the obvious knowledge of how to use Kopernicus properly.
<GregroxMun>
to be clear, the knowledge isn't obvious, the requirement of the knowledge is.
<Poodmund>
but... but... Space Engine exports.
<Thomas>
but.. but.. cancer
<Poodmund>
LUL
<GregroxMun>
I suspect there's probably a way of doing Space Engine exports in a good way
<GregroxMun>
a lazy way
<GregroxMun>
but a good way
<GregroxMun>
better than cancer
<Thomas>
I think KillAshley once figured out how to make the exports saner. But it was complicated and they still look crappy
<GregroxMun>
At the front of the idea is additional small scale pqsmods, and kittopia exports for the normal maps
<GregroxMun>
I so often see SE exports where the normal maps are broken or absent
<Poodmund>
I was trying to explain DXT5's nuance with normal maps about the different axis being required to be in the green and alpha channels in that Discord... I don't think it sank in.