egg|principia|egg changed the topic of #kspmodders to: Welcome to #kspmooders | <Majiir> egg is pretty much just a chickenfetus until you start talking about floating point | <SilverFox> "little" doesn't seem like a real word to me right now
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
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<Majiir>
d20
<Qboid>
Majiir: SilverFox left a message for you in #kspmodders [29.03.2017 03:29:21]: "Hey, how about a system where synctube doesn't store all the rooms in RAM, but it stores only the active ones, and when someone goes to join an empty room, it loads it up? Would this allow for ease of scalability in terms of potentially high userbase vs server hardware capabilities?"
<Majiir>
Let's call it 80 bytes per playlist entry
<Majiir>
and negligible storage for the rooms themselves
<Majiir>
So let's say we've got 1000 rooms with 1000 playlist entries each
<Majiir>
That's 80 megabytes
<Majiir>
The server itself uses nearly that much just to exist
<Majiir>
let alone the operating system and everything else
<SilverFox>
so this is like, netflix scale shit when we start to contemplate these solutions
<Majiir>
You're going to get data contention problems long before you have problems with mass storage
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<Majiir>
(i.e. too many things trying to access the same data)
<Majiir>
Most of the fancy work on Synctube was aimed at reducing unnecessary computation
<Majiir>
This is why the server does zero computation when going from one song to the next
<Greys>
Majiir, how do you stay interested in factorio
<Majiir>
Greys, two things
<Greys>
big two things
<Majiir>
(1) I put lots of constraints on myself from the beginning. I have *always* played with no solar, no handcrafting, and (mostly) no lasers
<Majiir>
This makes the game a lot more challenging, which helps keep it interesting
<Majiir>
(2) I go through 'arcs' where I'm focusing for a few weeks on one particular thing
<Majiir>
For example
<Greys>
a few weeks? do you play a lot less than I think?
<Majiir>
I just finished up one 'arc' where I built a 20-25km walled-and-defended railway to get to where all the patches of ore are >2M units of ore
<Majiir>
It's far enough away that I have 12 trains constantly going back and forth along this railway just to support *one* mine
<Greys>
ore spot density increases with distance from the starting area?
<Majiir>
Yep
<Majiir>
Before that, I completely redesigned my oil refinery
<Majiir>
Now, I'm back to one of the longer arcs, which is building circuits that perfectly forecast raw material demands
<Majiir>
so I could put something like "1 satellite" onto the circuit network, and all the miners would start mining exactly enough ore to produce a single satellite
<Majiir>
and those materials then have to be routed exactly where they need to go, which is the hard part
<Greys>
what do satelites do?
<Majiir>
You launch them in rockets and they add to your score
<Majiir>
It was just an example of a complex item
<Greys>
oh good, I can ignore that forever
<Majiir>
That seems silly
<Majiir>
This also works for things like science packs, as long as you maintain a small (configurable!) buffer of packs at the labs
<Greys>
what good is score?
<Majiir>
Satellites and rockets are good for consuming resources
<Greys>
I don't understand the value of this
<Majiir>
If you don't consume any resources or establish any other goals, then you end up optimizing too aggressively, resulting in closing the game
<Majiir>
I nearly depleted all resources in my base just trying to build that 20-25km wall
<SilverFox>
~roll
<FoxBot9000>
SilverFox: (1d20) 13
<Majiir>
That was fun, because losing resources in my base would result in the slow loss of my defensive walls
<Greys>
I assume the wall is actively defended?
<Majiir>
Yes. Flamethrowers, gun turrets, walls, and roboports with repair bots.
<Majiir>
If I ran out of, say, iron, I would still be able to produce walls, but I'd lose the ability to build gates, flamethrowers, gun turrets, repair kits or replacement robots
<Majiir>
It would take a while, but eventually I'd run out of one of those things
<Majiir>
Ammo would be first to go, then gun turrets and flamethrowers, and probably some of the pipes carrying the flamethrower fuel
<SilverFox>
Who would win, the whole ecosystem of earth, or weird walking apes with sticks
<Majiir>
Since the walls just daisy-chain the fuel, that means whole sections of my wall would soon lose flamethrower capacity
<Greys>
why fucking link the image if you were going to read it
<Majiir>
With ammunition gone, that means the buggers would be able to breach those walls and start setting up bases
<SilverFox>
for the lulz
<Majiir>
Once they get in, they would spread inside the entirely undefended area and multiply like crazy, since they consume pollution to multiply
<Greys>
see, I have no patience for combat in a logic game, especially when the combat is bland and skill-free
<Majiir>
At that point, the best thing I could do would be to shut down my powerplant and try and clear them manually, possibly building secondary walls to re-establish things
<SilverFox>
sounds like you have a bad case of immune deficiency
<Majiir>
Combat isn't the point of the game, and if your game is dominated by combat you're probably not automating enough
<Majiir>
Plus, combat is being completely rebalanced in the upcoming patch because it's one of the weakest parts of the game atm
<Majiir>
Still doesn't ruin the game IMO
<Greys>
sure, and thus is sufficient reason to disable the combat
<SilverFox>
relying entirely on your skin and mucous membranes for defense
<Majiir>
The most fun I had in Factorio was trying to desperately defend an expansion outpost from constant waves of attacks
<Majiir>
Tedious was clearing 25km of alien nests when they were at max evolution
<Greys>
both of those sound incredibly tedious
<Majiir>
Next time, I'm going 25km north *early*
<Greys>
you should get some lackies to multiplayer in and pilot tanks to defend your expansion
<Majiir>
They'd try to design things
<Majiir>
I don't trust people to design things
<Greys>
give them a tank and shoot them if they get out
<Majiir>
But...they have a *tank*
<Greys>
so get a hypertank
<Majiir>
and there are lots of them
<Greys>
have you seen bobs mods? not literally seen or used, just like, looked at the dedicated messageboard he's got
<Majiir>
I've seen lots of references to Bobs and Angels and not been interested
<Majiir>
I think they supply something that helps people who are interested in a different part of the game
<Majiir>
A lot of people find it incredibly challenging and rewarding to figure out how to wire up all the recipes together
<Majiir>
That wasn't challenging for me, and I don't think adding *more* of that adds anything interesting
<Greys>
I'm not saying click on any of these threads
<Greys>
but look how many threads there are
<Greys>
a lot of these btw are pretty boring, just adding more ingredients or additional tech levels; adding more scale on top without changing anything
<Majiir>
My DM made a mod I suggested
<Majiir>
Roboports require lubricant to be piped in
<Majiir>
Robots require lubricant to fly
<Majiir>
and lose a lot of speed and carrying capacity
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<Majiir>
tl;dr flying robots become fucking *hard* to use
<Greys>
you may actually appreciate this, I don't really appreciate the mechanics they scale
<Greys>
I want liquid fue
<Greys>
fuel
<Greys>
this keyboard kinda sucks
<Majiir>
Liquid fuel would be neat, but I'm not sure it adds much unless it includes some new refinery mechanics
<Greys>
I've had it for about 6 months and I've come to notice frequently that keypresses simply fail
<Majiir>
DM and I have talked at length about how to make Factorio more fun
<Majiir>
One idea is for fixing solar: make batteries explode.
<Majiir>
Not randomly, either, but based on the stresses they experience
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<Greys>
I think the refinery outputs would be a good place for a mod to innovate; as is you always get these three things in differing amounts, and shift them around to make stuff
<Majiir>
A large-scale, pure-solar installation should have not-insignificant costs for replacing batteries that are constantly exploding
<Greys>
it would make more sense for the refinery to have different sets of things to output, forcing you to choose
<Majiir>
The refinery having multiple outputs in a ratio presents a logistics challenge that's fairly unique in the game
<Majiir>
it's one of the reasons I like oil
<darklight>
I am now on my pi watching youtube :D
<Majiir>
but I'd also like more choices, even if they're not *easier* ones
<Greys>
especially if they're not easier
<Majiir>
e.g. the ability to consume coal as part of refinery recipes
<Majiir>
and get different products or capabilities for that
<Majiir>
because I have an excess of coal, but many players need more coal
<Majiir>
More interesting chemistry in general would be cool
<Greys>
let's say we keep the paradigm of density sets and add six new refinery outputs, at the bottom there is heavy oil, at the top is propane and natural gas, then kerocene, gasoline, and other stuff; but the refinery has to put out a balance
<Greys>
so all the recipes it can be configured for have heavy oil as one output, and the middle output is between the lightest and heavy oil
<Greys>
another cooler way to do it would be to replace refineries with a machine that has interfaces on 3 sides, and don't take a recipe at all
<Greys>
the "bottom" one recieves oil, and all of them recieve water plus another thing, then the bottom one passes up lighter agents and outputs the heavy part it's extracting
<Greys>
emulating a repeated distillation process
<SilverFox>
Majiir, can you recall off the top of your head that Crayon Pop song that goes "na na na na na, na na na na na na na na"
<Greys>
to get at liquid/gas fuels you need to have the entire stack of refineries and just like now, none of them can get bottlenecked or it stops up the whole system
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<Majiir>
Greys, I like this idea
<Majiir>
I'll run it by DM
<Majiir>
AFK
<Greys>
plus then instead of making your drones run on lubricant you could have them run on gasoline first, but that's heavy and inefficient, then diesel, more powerful but slower, then kerocene, a bit quicker and less pollution, then you get into natural gas, propane, which have higher quantity densities and less weight; and finally, at the end of a long tech tree, electrics
<SilverFox>
yay organic chem
<Greys>
the thing with quadcopters is that they don't scale well for heavy battery technologies
<Greys>
SilverFox, btw, I think the song you're thinking of is my chemical romance
<kmath>
YouTube - My Chemical Romance - "Na Na Na" (Official Music Video)
<SilverFox>
no
<SilverFox>
it is by Crayon Pop
<Greys>
maybe it's a cover?
<SilverFox>
no
<SilverFox>
because then the song would be called "Na Na Na" and there is no song with that title in their discography
<Greys>
maybe they did a bad thing and translated it?
<SilverFox>
no
<SilverFox>
the song has nothing to do with "na"
<SilverFox>
it's just a thing that happens
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<SilverFox>
"my lowest grade in a core subject is 100 and highest is 117" wat
<SilverFox>
what kind of grading system is this?
<Greys>
typical school bullshit
<Greys>
100% + extra credit
<SilverFox>
the fuck
<Greys>
?
<SilverFox>
bunch of fuckin showoffs
<Greys>
?
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<SilverFox>
confusedblackguy.jpg
<Greys>
~
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<SilverFox>
Brits of this chat, do you really pronounce cannabis as can-naw-bis?
<SilverFox>
I wonder how easy it is to smuggle small quantities of LSD through airport security
<SilverFox>
because the doses are in the micrograms
<SilverFox>
that's fucking smol
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<Majiir>
d20
<Soozee>
Majiir: 10
<SilverFox>
Majiir, any tips for helping with the translation in thinking and structure when going between SVO and SOV sentence structures?
<Majiir>
that's disappointingly centrist
<Majiir>
git gudder
<Majiir>
and don't think about it
<SilverFox>
other than practice
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<SilverFox>
what do you mean dont think about it?
<Majiir>
If you're thinking about how to arrange your words, you've already lost
<Majiir>
Listen to people speaking and form similar sentences without thinking about it and without caring if you get it exactly right
<SilverFox>
And that wont enforce a habit of being close enough but not nearly enough?
<Majiir>
If you want to be precise, you're already doing the wrong thing
<Majiir>
and trying to be precise isn't good for learning how to speak a language
<SilverFox>
hmmm
<Majiir>
If you're struggling with SOV
<Majiir>
you need to go way more to the intuition side of things
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<SilverFox>
Im struggling with how to pair and nest properly. English is serial, it doesn't nest as much. If you elaborate, it usually attaches to the end of whatever you're elaborating, be that object or subject. SOV structures nest, rather than extend
<SilverFox>
and ontop of that, korean doesn't verbose as much as english, so sometimes when i'm translating I find difficulty in that I may not be nesting properly, or that some portions can be mistaken for others because i might not be explicit enough
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<SilverFox>
I wish I could pull up the examples I had before, but those were many hours or days ago
<SilverFox>
How do I go into the more intuition side of things?
<Majiir>
Of course English seems natural -- you're used to it
<Majiir>
Just stop caring about all the particulars and dive in and butcher it
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<Majiir>
and when you're not sure how to say something, ask and figure out from examples how things work
<Majiir>
instead of trying to figure out rules
<Majiir>
Languages are messy
<SilverFox>
that part might be a tad difficult for me, seeing as how I operate on rules and laws and such. Going to be hard to dig up those ingrained roots
<Majiir>
.....lol
<SilverFox>
however I will try and "dive into it" more
<Majiir>
"operate on rules and laws and such"
<Majiir>
bro I'm a programmer
<Majiir>
I'm not unfamiliar with rules and laws
<Majiir>
You can get over it
<SilverFox>
Of course
<Majiir>
Think of it this way
<Majiir>
Human brains are really bad at quickly applying simple rules
<Majiir>
but they're really good at slowly inferring complex relationships from large amounts of data
<Majiir>
so you just have to shove tons of sentences and meanings through your head until you develop some model, *invisible to you*, that allows you to understand it
<Majiir>
Your brain is not a computer, and if you try to hold 20 simple rules in your head about how to arrange words in a sentence, you're never going to form a sentence in time to say it.
<Majiir>
Native speakers often can't explain the language they speak because they're not even aware of the model they use to understand it
<SilverFox>
fair point
Majiir is now known as Snoozee
<G-Magic>
Teaching is hard because you don't understand what you understand in a context
<G-Magic>
I have a hard time with lots of things because I have trouble with anything that's not in a context, and I have to inhabit that context to use it
<SilverFox>
I have a hard time accepting some things as fact purely because said so
<SilverFox>
and then confirmation bias also. I've learned that confirmation bias is rather hard to overcome regularly
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<G-Munster>
Fact is just a type, don't bother disputinf factuality unless someone is abusing or misusing it in a flawed argumenth
<G-Munster>
what really matters is whether the fact is founded in something, no facts are independently true and perhaps that rabbit hole holds a treasure hoard, or the foundation of the enemy castle
<G-Munster>
SilverFox: the reason your quote in the topic is a perfect representation of what makes conversing with you really absurd some times is that you are willing to arbitrarily doubt insignificant things for no reason
<SilverFox>
im gonna cut in and say it is not for no reason, only seemingly so
<SilverFox>
I doubt because what is said conflicts with a conception I currently hold
<G-Munster>
it's a fact that the word little is real, and that fact is based on an extensive and well understood etymology, but also there is no value in bothering to doubt it
<SilverFox>
I never said that word wasn't real
<G-Munster>
the correct response to your incredulity towards this word is "mmkay"
<SilverFox>
I said it seemed unreal, and that is due to a rather known phenomenae
<G-Munster>
Now, that time was extra pointless because it was not part of a conversation and did not lead to a conversation, which makes mmkay itself an unnecessary response, but sometimes you will pull this in the middle of a conversation and it halts the proceedings. Now, you have doubted some foundational thing, and you will use that doubt to derail any further progress until the doubt can be settled
<G-Munster>
so effectivepy you carpetbomb existing conversations and demand that we delve into rejustifying pre-agreed truths, such as if "little" is a valid adjective
<G-Munster>
it comes down to the social contract and "is this the hill you want to fight and die on"
<G-Munster>
We in this channel have a meme, that when people start pulling out acronyms, we fuck around with it, and as the acronym gains local popularity that receeds, because acronyms and initialisms lack pre-agreed truths
<SilverFox>
if I can so interject for a moment, that is not a meme, that is an inside joke
<SilverFox>
carry on with your rantings
<G-Munster>
Whats the difference
<SilverFox>
there's a difference
<G-Munster>
my point is, you fight and die on a lot of stupid hills that our conversations were supposed to drive past
<SilverFox>
i am too tired and mindfucked to elaborate right now
<G-Munster>
a meme is a behavioral concept that is transmitted among a social group
<G-Munster>
Idea infections
<SilverFox>
okay but what's the point in your point
<SilverFox>
what are you trying to accomplish
<G-Munster>
Persuade you to be more considerate of how you apply doubt. As I started, facts are not specially deserving of assumed truth
<G-Munster>
What is there to be gained from doubting the word little
<G-Munster>
at best, an mmkay
<SilverFox>
your persuasion skills on me are rather lacking. Also, Im quite sure I wanted to start a conversation on that phenomena, but may have gotten sidetracked elsewhere
<G-Munster>
d20+2
<Soozee>
G-Munster: 20 + 2 => 22
<SilverFox>
well fucklesticks
<G-Munster>
You are convinced
<SilverFox>
solidly
<SilverFox>
well done
<G-Munster>
If you had been trying to start a conversation with the topic quote, you wiffed it by failing to provide a context to go forward from, though I may have cut you off by getting it into the topic
<SilverFox>
I whiffed it by not continuing conversation on it in a timely manner
<G-Munster>
I can imagine several contexts adjacent to the comment which could have lead forward, but the comment itself is just a statement neither beckoning agreement, disagreement, or validation
<SilverFox>
I would've gone on about how I saw and used that word so often, that it doesn't seem like a real word anymore, and how these phenomena are rather neat
<SilverFox>
and then perhaps started a conversation on phenomena of the human brain
<G-Munster>
Similar to your disbelief in "little", when I see "ONLY", my brain cannot parse these glyphs into the word only and I end up with a phoneticization similar to ohnel
<SilverFox>
Onyl?
<SilverFox>
however, this phenomena I was experiencing is different than dyslexia sort of things
<Supernovy>
Orly?
<G-Munster>
on as on or off, el as lion or last
<SilverFox>
it's seeing a perfectly valid word, but not being sure it is actually a word anymore
<SilverFox>
it just *doesn't look right*
<SilverFox>
like something's off about it
<SilverFox>
ghetti isn't a word, at least one I know of. we know it to not be a word from my presumptions, and we are right in feeling that is not a word. However if I were to tell you that ghetti has been a word all along, you get this feeling inside you, and that feeling is similar to that of seeing a known word, and seeing it as non-word
<G-Munster>
Isn't ghetti a name?
<SilverFox>
im unsure
<G-Munster>
Names when used as names, aren't words, they're nust phonetic blobs, which is why they shouldnt be translated
<G-Munster>
The phoneticisation is what matters, so changing that to try and transport meaning is insulting to the bearer of the name
<G-Munster>
however in the context of etymology you're chasing down a combination of meanings, translations, transliterations, and drifts, so then it's treated as a wors
<G-Munster>
wrord
<G-Munster>
wrrrrrrrd
<SilverFox>
speaking of phonemes, I need to compile a list of all the ones in english
<SilverFox>
I need to learn and teach them
<G-Munster>
I think you will find that varies significantly by accent, and how phonemes map to letters also varies by accent
<SilverFox>
I already know such
<SilverFox>
however I am to teach either the dialect in which I possess, or standard dialect, if known or available
<SilverFox>
basically I want a map of "ae makes a certain sound as follows:"
<SilverFox>
"ea makes this sound:"
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<G-Munster>
From my experience, correct grammer varies a lot by how letters map to phonemes, and regional beliefs about cadence and such
<SilverFox>
"a_e makes this sound:"
<G-Munster>
so for instance, the ever popular y'all
<SilverFox>
combines phonemes "y" "aw" "l"
<G-Munster>
Y'all tends to be more accepted in regions where the accent pronounces y'all as yi diphthonging into ahl
<SilverFox>
stop dipthing my thongs yo
<G-Munster>
That is not the natural way yall would be pronounced in most of the UK, which would tend towards yha'll
<SilverFox>
anyways, korean teacher pronounces english words like korean words and this is a problem
<SilverFox>
so I need to teach her english sounds
<G-Munster>
Yep
<SilverFox>
this is also a problem with the english teaching in korea, they teach what is natural to koreans, not what is natural to english
<G-Munster>
I want to make a inutituk style variant of the IPA, I think you would mesh well with it
<SilverFox>
inutituk?
<SilverFox>
is this some sort of inuit variant?
<SilverFox>
oh is the the simplified IPA you brought up before?
<G-Munster>
I may have that wrong, it's a writing system used in the arctic circle to represent languages that are not normally written or compatible, via phonemes instead of letters
<SilverFox>
maybe you are combining inuit with inukshuk
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<G-Munster>
basically they take a handful of basic symbols luke u and e, then encode related phonemes as one symbol rotated with a small number of punctuations
<G-Munster>
the rotations and punctuations always mean the same thing so it ends up being math to resolve the written form into the spoken form
<G-Munster>
The eh phonem plus a y diphthong times a single step elongation
<teabot>
Steap.
<SilverFox>
what im interested in is better the way we teach english to koreans and how to more efficiently teach in an effective manner. But currently I need to get a list of phonemes
<G-Munster>
Inuktituit
<SilverFox>
specifically, a list of written phonemes
<G-Munster>
What you're describing is making an IPA describing english, and the reason you wont and I wont suggest learn IPA is that it's a big mass of totally inaccessible variant squiggles that is designed to resist systemic understanding
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<SilverFox>
why I refuse IPA is that it isn't truly descriptive for learning, it is no help to someone who wants to learn both IPA, or another language's pronounciation
<SilverFox>
it's like learning a language to understand a language to learn another language
<SilverFox>
what would be most beneficial is a tool, rather than a workshop
<SilverFox>
IPA is currently a workshop, with all these machines and drill bits and paper gradings, ratings, operation modes, all these complex things you have to know, but all you need to do is put a piece of aluminim on the laythe, then punch a hole in it
<G-Munster>
IPA should be a tool, but it's bloated and inaccessible, making it as hard to learn and use as a foreign language
<SilverFox>
I agree
<SilverFox>
it failed in providing proper/effective explanation to reproduce sounds of the language
<G-Munster>
You could learn the rules of inuktituit tonight, and immediately be able to use it, however it has a limited context that does not serve your needs
<G-Munster>
so I suggest you make an inuk~ style ipa table for english and then expand it to contain korean phonemes also
<SilverFox>
sounds like too much work
<SilverFox>
and something I won't be able to complete in any useful manner
<G-Munster>
Its just a shape for the thing you plan to make anyway
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<G-Munster>
That face when an app for making apps is harder than making real apps
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<G-Munster>
I have a mind problem
<G-Munster>
thing 1, I have a list of about a hundred items to check across two buildings
<G-Munster>
I have to perform this a few times every shift
<G-Munster>
and currently I am doing so in a google doc
<G-Munster>
Thing 2, I want an app to streamline and lead this process to reduce the possibility of error, and make it simpler
<G-Munster>
thing 3, this list changes, and may change drastically in the near future
<G-Munster>
thing 4, the list that must be submitted does not have a consistent paradigm of format
<G-Munster>
thing 5, within a few months, I may own an iphone instead of an android phone
<G-Munster>
So the first layer is, should I make this app at all, the second layer is should I bother making an android app when I plan to abandon the platform, and finally, how generalizable do I need to make it
<G-Munster>
Contextually I don't know what the tool chain is after I submit this data, but I suspect there isnt one, that people are looking at this in their email client, but I get the impression that messing with the format will not be appreciated, so I need to prescribe an output as markup
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<G-Munster>
SilverFox: learn some swift
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<G-Magic>
if let variable = othervariable { return "something \(variable)" ) } else { return "nope" }
<G-Magic>
I don't yet have a use case for this, but I bet it's super useful
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<G-Magic>
Majiir I need you
<G-Magic>
this is weird and scary
<G-Magic>
swift lets you have functions in functions
<G-Magic>
not call functions in functions, declare functions inside other functions, and then when you call the inner function it invokes the outer function first but then invokes the called function before the outer function returns
<G-Magic>
this biznitch is too hardcore
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<Greys>
my right side monitor has failed, again
<Greys>
I'll crack it open tonight and see if I have to replace that capacitor again; luckily I bought five
<TheKosmonaut>
Are your monitors shitty cheap ones or just very old?
<Greys>
2005
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg
<Greys>
great, it's 3 other capacitors
<Greys>
where's all the circuitry people
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<Greys>
what is this ladder symbol between the circled leads?
<Greys>
btw the circled leads on the right, that's the first resister that blew
<Greys>
the first capacitor that blew
<Greys>
no resisters did anything
<Greys>
ok so I've got a straight replacement for one capacitor out of a TV I scavanged last week, yay
<Greys>
then the other two are the same uF as the previously replaced cap, however they are 10v and it is 25v
<Greys>
oh dang, the scavange cap is the same
<Greys>
somebody remind me how voltage ratings matter to replacing caps
<waerloga>
higher is fine
<waerloga>
to an extent
<waerloga>
there's other factors at play here though that I don't know enough about
<Greys>
the small caps are 470uF, the big caps are 1000uF, all three I will be replacing are 10v, and all my replacements are 25v; the last thing I want to figure out before turning on the soldering iron is wtf the ladder symbol means
<GlsFrg|phone>
man, fucking everyone has been suicidal at some point
<GlsFrg|phone>
especially the people you'd least expect to
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<GlsFrg|phone>
are there simple mail forwarding services
<waerloga>
postal mail?
<GlsFrg|phone>
like, they receive something, somehow know that it's your package, and forward it to the address you specified
<waerloga>
yeah, they exist, never used one though
<GlsFrg|phone>
There's services like yafuoku and taobao agents who do that as part of their service, and taobao themselves also do forwarding for foreign customers
<GlsFrg|phone>
waerloga: so maybe you could chain them and use them as Tor for letterbombs
<waerloga>
I most often encounter mentions of them for canadian folks wanting products from the US and wanting possible/cheaper shipping to
<teabot>
Oftean.
<waerloga>
I guess that could be possible *shrugs*
<GlsFrg|phone>
actually I read a foreign buyers guide for yafuoku just for fun and it was the usual "you can't even register an account as a foreigner, just use an agent" bs so I was wondering that since you can get around everything except shipping there might be some no bullshit forwarding service
<Greys>
"This product gives you 1800 mph backup that means huge battery power. I am definitely not a fan of the portable battery pack."
<Greys>
GlsFrg|phone what if you're a native outsider?
<Greys>
"You use your wall charger as your normally would but ones your phone is charged it will power up the built in 1800 million power battery inside"
<Greys>
I want an 1800 million power battery
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<Glass|phone>
there is zero issue with using yafuoku as a foreigner as long as you live in japan
<Glass|phone>
and I'm pretty sure you could just message sellers and ask if they ship internationally
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<Glass|phone>
what the fuck? rounding a corner in freecad removes all the constraints associated with that corner
<Greys>
"let’s talking about <b>Apple new</b> Airpods <b>are finally hands on you should buy</b> Airpods."
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<Glass|phone>
what
<G-Magic>
there's this site called applegag.something, and you might assume by that url that they're a gag review site; I can't tell for sure that it isn't, but it's definitely terrible
<G-Magic>
every article is a meritless mash of chopped up blurb, reassembled into new, grammatically invalid sentences
<G-Magic>
and every single one of them reads as if someone had dictated it to siri in spanish, and then used google translate to make it english, then had google translate read the translation to siri, transcribing it once more
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<Sigma88>
applegag sounds like some kind of vegan "adult accessory"
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<Glass|phone>
.choose unacceptable | UNACCEPTABLE
<Glass|phone>
;choose fuck this bot bullshit
<Glass|phone>
~choose whatever
<FoxBot9000>
My choice is: whatever
<Sigma88>
!choose dot | exclamation point
<Qboid>
Sigma88: Your options are: dot, exclamation point. My choice: exclamation point
<Glass|phone>
well ! would be too simple
<Glass|phone>
!choose does this one also work with a single option
<Qboid>
Glass|phone: Your options are: does this one also work with a single option. My choice: does this one also work with a single option
<SilverFox>
that is part of the output/training process
<SilverFox>
except I dont think it gets rewarded based on output
<SilverFox>
but output increases with training
<SilverFox>
and thus gets better over time until it peaks
<Sigma88>
ok
<Sigma88>
makes sense
<Sigma88>
plus probably the network doesn't care about a golden star anyways
<Sigma88>
:)
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<Greys>
SilverFox, brilliant idea. We need to build a super flat package of a pi like device, plus wifi, running on a pretty large battery so it can run for a week or more; in a similarly flat project box
<SilverFox>
i mean
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<Greys>
then we take this, and use foam adhesive tape to glue it to the bottom of a booth table, against the wall, in a mcdonalds or burgerking
<Greys>
so that it's running off the free wifi
<Greys>
colo at fast food
<SilverFox>
majuuuu
<Greys>
Majiir, functions in functions, what the func
<Majiir>
why are functions in functions hard
<Majiir>
What is a function in function, anyway
<Greys>
swift allows you to nest function definitions
<Greys>
such that calling an inner function invokes the outer functions along the way
<Majiir>
That sounds like boring semantics with really stupid syntax
<Majiir>
Javascript allows you to ""next"" function definitions, but that's because function definitions are basically just local variables
<Majiir>
nest*
<Majiir>
and you don't get the bonkers calling stuff
<Majiir>
i.e. a function that returns another function
<Majiir>
well
<Majiir>
Those aren't the same thing
<Majiir>
but this is both of those things
<Majiir>
It's a closure because the variable `overallDecrement` is 'enclosed' in the outer function scope
<teabot>
Functean.
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<G-Magic>
Closures are the next page
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<Majiir>
There's nothing special going on here with 'nested functions'
<Majiir>
It's just a function that returns a function, and nothing else is handled specially
<Majiir>
Notice that parens are used to call twice
<Majiir>
Once to call `callDecrement`, and again to call `decrem` which is the result of `callDecrement`
<Majiir>
The tutorial sucks basically
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<SilverFox>
how would yall like a bot that could program, like qboid, but with more features and it actually can execute the code as a normal bot does, rather than just putting in functions you manually call?
<Majiir>
inb4 collaborative hacking of Fox's machine
<G-Magic>
Nope
<SilverFox>
Majiir, that would be a negative result, ableit entertaining though
<SilverFox>
it of course would be sandboxed
<Majiir>
I'm not sure if I want to know what "sandboxed" means to you
<SilverFox>
also, Majiir, I know that IRC bots are super simple and totally not impressive on a resume, but what about if you made the bot's inner workings like that of a CPU or some shit, so like, you have op-codes mapped to functions, and you build new functions by using those opcode mappings
<Majiir>
That would be less impressive
<SilverFox>
so if you want to write to a file, that's function xFA18
<Majiir>
If I interviewed a candidate with that project, it would make me more likely to reject them
<SilverFox>
I think it'd be neat, but I of course think in A E S T H E T I C S
<Majiir>
It shows a tendency to overcomplicate things
<SilverFox>
understandable
<Majiir>
and a tendency to do things that are "cool" without any concern for whether they're practical or elegant
<SilverFox>
that's basically me
<Majiir>
"xFA18" is completely opaque and useless
<Majiir>
Nobody wants to work with xFA18
<SilverFox>
yeah it's purely an aesthetic thing
<Majiir>
You have shit sense of aesthetics
<SilverFox>
mayhaps, I want to see what my weather sim would look like as an entire math equation on a chalkboard
<teabot>
Enteare.
<Majiir>
Not really gonna happen since your sim isn't written as a pure function
<SilverFox>
also seeing as how it's not finished
<Majiir>
Inability to finish things, there's another problem
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<Majiir>
Note how I never say "Synctube isn't finished"
<Majiir>
More like, certain features are missing, or there's remaining work in progress
<Majiir>
The current version of Synctube is finished, done, it's out there and it works
<Majiir>
If you want a programming resume, you need more stuff that's in a finished and released state, even if it's not *complete*
<SilverFox>
well yeah, that's KWS, it's stuck in partial limbo where I can't dedicate the time I want to it just yet, and my motivation is just shit for it because of the sheer amount of shit I need to throw at it
<Majiir>
Nah, the problem isn't lack of time
<Majiir>
The problem is lack of releasing
<Majiir>
You let the scope blow up too much
<SilverFox>
im not releasing shit that doesn't work
<Majiir>
You should have gone for the simplest possible design and gotten that working well
<Majiir>
That's what good programmers do
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<SilverFox>
that design was against my morals
<Majiir>
I'm not sure why you think I give a shit about your excused
<Majiir>
excuses*
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<SilverFox>
I agree with what you're saying though
<SilverFox>
Jo In sung.... is that super hot guy from those blind kdramas?
<Majiir>
yes
<SilverFox>
noice
<SilverFox>
I agree
<Majiir>
but instead this has BoA
<SilverFox>
that name is also familiar
<Majiir>
and a bunch of EXO wannabe
<SilverFox>
Do you think that CL is a better rapper than Cheetah?
<Majiir>
I don't know if there's any truth to this, but I feel like boy groups have fallen out of popularity in the last couple years
<Majiir>
Like these days there's BTS and ... ?????
<SilverFox>
and exactly
<SilverFox>
but on a different but similar note, I've heard from at least 3 people that they dont like boygroups because "they look like girls"
<Majiir>
They're very hit or miss for me, but I don't get the gender confusion that some people do
<SilverFox>
I can see their point of view, but I don't see the androgyny the same way. I can tell they are boys, but I can see how they can look like girls
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<Greys>
for the next few days I will be up to date with my rent
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<Greys>
so Majiir, can you give another shot at explaining that nested whatever it is?
<Greys>
I really don't see the point of the example on that page
<Majiir>
The thing they are showing you is a useful technique. However, it has nothing to do with the language. It's not a feature of the programming language.
<Majiir>
You can do this in Javascript, Lua, probably a crapton of other languages
<Majiir>
The feature they're showing off here is "closures"
<Greys>
it seems like calling calcDecrement() is creating and returning an instance of Decrementer() that will complete the operation when invoked later
<Majiir>
right, and you could call decrement() multiple times
<Majiir>
Each time you call it, it's going to refer to the *same* internal counter variable
<Majiir>
It encapsulates data and functionality, but it does it without type guarantees or a well-defined interface
<Majiir>
except then they kind of bring that back so
<Greys>
so this techinque permits you to create small mechanisms that do one thing
<Majiir>
Among other things, yes
<Majiir>
It's really all about scoping
<Greys>
interdesting
<Majiir>
The counter is a *local* variable, but it gets 'captured' in the decrement function that gets returned
<Greys>
their example would be vastly improved by printing decrem() multiple times
<SilverFox>
Majiir, do you have any good youtube channels for learning korean you used?
<Majiir>
Yeah
<SilverFox>
would you be willing to send them my way?
<Majiir>
I wasn't answering you
<SilverFox>
I'm going on a subscribing binge on korean channe;s
<Greys>
so the question becomes what's the difference between "nested functions" and actual closures; in the context of this site's understanding
<Greys>
surface inspection suggests that actual closures are like defining a series in haskel
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<Greys>
an alternate interpretation might be that closures are true functions, though that's easily just something they accidentally did in this example
<Majiir>
Nested functions are just a way of taking advantage of closures
<Majiir>
Closures aren't really a thing in your code
<Majiir>
"Javascript has closures" is a valid statement
<Majiir>
"This line of code has a closure" not so much
<Majiir>
The *variable* is what gets 'closed in'
<Majiir>
The scope that the variable is in becomes the "closure"
<Majiir>
So you could say that every function has a closure, but it's a pointless statement
<Majiir>
As for "nested functions" that's not a language feature. It's just a technique.
<Greys>
yea... I think this site is trying to explain both concepts as features, and it ends up confusing
<Majiir>
yep
<Greys>
btw swift has an actual feature to alias types so you can have floats that you call feet and shit; which is normally a concept, so that's odd
<Majiir>
@let type Feet = Double
<Soozee>
Defined.
<SilverFox>
:t Feet
<Soozee>
Not in scope: data constructor ‘Feet’
<Majiir>
It's a type alias, not a new type
<SilverFox>
ohhh
<Majiir>
@let toYards f = (f :: Feet) * 3
<Soozee>
Defined.
<Majiir>
:t toYards
<Soozee>
Feet -> Feet
<Majiir>
Great, it turns feet into feet
<Majiir>
But we can give it a Double anyway
<SilverFox>
nice
<Greys>
even if you don't have aliasing as a feature, you can still do it
<Majiir>
@let ten = (10 :: Double)
<Soozee>
Defined.
<Majiir>
:t ten
<Soozee>
Double
<Majiir>
> toYards ten
<Soozee>
30.0
<SilverFox>
uhm
<Majiir>
Type aliasing is a convenience thing more than anything, since they are just different names for the *same* type
<Greys>
yep
<egg|zzz|egg>
pingpingping
<SilverFox>
do you get pinged by double?
<egg|zzz|egg>
yes
<SilverFox>
neat
<Greys>
one fun idea swift has exposed me to, never thought about it before so I don't know if it's in C# or etc; if let yourString = myString {
<Majiir>
also yes
<Majiir>
toYards is poorly defined
<Majiir>
deal with it
<Majiir>
1/3 yard in a foot
<egg|zzz|egg>
Majiir: also type aliasing is dangerous for that purpose
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's not how you should do dimensional analysis
<Majiir>
Agreed
<Majiir>
For that, we have newtypes!
<egg|zzz|egg>
yup
<Majiir>
@let newtype Yard = Yard Double
<Soozee>
Defined.
<egg|zzz|egg>
(as long as you don't need multiplication, then you need genericity on values of some sort of rational or at least integer, and blaaargh)
<Greys>
genericity, nice word
<Majiir>
@let fiveYards = Yard 5
<Soozee>
Defined.
<Majiir>
:t fiveYards
<Soozee>
Yard
<Majiir>
but now we cannot use this in anything that takes a mere Double
<Majiir>
> toYards fiveYards
<Majiir>
:t toYards fiveYards
<Soozee>
Couldn't match type ‘Yard’ with ‘Double’
<Soozee>
Expected type: Feet
<Soozee>
Actual type: Yard
<Majiir>
We also cannot use normal operations on this unless we explicitly define them
<Majiir>
:t fiveYards == fiveYards
<egg|zzz|egg>
pingping
<Soozee>
No instance for (Eq Yard) arising from a use of ‘==’
<Soozee>
In the expression: fiveYards == fiveYards
<SilverFox>
I forget, is the undefine shit required on your end because of foundation, or because lazy/unwilling/unnecessary?
<Majiir>
but under the hood, Yard is represented exactly the same way as a Double
<Majiir>
Neither
<Majiir>
It's not "on my end"
<Majiir>
I didn't write Lambdabot yo
<SilverFox>
so the undefine is a lamdabot thing, aight
<egg|zzz|egg>
Majiir: but you could patch λbot so it has granular undefine were you infinitely nonlazy
<Majiir>
True, but Haskell developers are lazy by default
<egg|zzz|egg>
:-p
<Majiir>
This is what allows us to work on infinite projects
<Greys>
innovators innovate so they won't have to do as much work
<egg|zzz|egg>
Majiir: nay, look at principia, it's clearly infinite in scope and it's C++
<Majiir>
(Greys, it was a pun on how Haskell is lazy by default; values are only computed when they're needed.)
<Greys>
(majiir, I was secretly referencing the invention of electric punchcard readers)