raptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Galileo. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, 1.7.x, 1.8.1, and 1.9.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<discord-> l​pg. — ok there's more to this than 'vessel history". 2 days and 2 launches later, the pause has grown by a full minute more.
<discord-> l​pg. — Save size hasn't increased by anywhere near the same amount
<discord-> l​pg. — Save size hasn't increased by anywhere near the same proportion (edited)
<discord-> l​pg. — In fact save size is still well below those I attached to #2400, which I'm pretty sure didn't have this problem
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<discord-> l​pg. — OK there's definitely something else going on. stripped down to 12 youngish vessels, 10MB save file size, still ~4min scene changes. Re-confirmed that deleting principia fixes it, as does deleting the remaining vessels
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<discord-> s​ichelgaita. — @lpg Maybe attach that save to #2400?
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2683: ToMathematica for polynomials and (not quite) Poisson series - https://git.io/JJArk
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4467/
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2684: Fix tolerances for Clang - https://git.io/JJA53
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4467/
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4468/
<discord-> B​utcher. — Are you in 2350? :-p
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4468/
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<discord-> l​pg. — 1962. still slowly narrowing it down (~10min to enter and leave tracking station is no fun); it'll go in a separate issue once I have it as small as it gets.
<discord-> l​pg. — it seems to be something special with very recent vessels
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — I'm sure you have considered it, but could it be a mod added during the career?
<discord-> l​pg. — it _could_ be anything. what it _is_ is something that doesn't happen if principia is removed
<discord-> B​uilderbast. — Basically the more active vessels I have the more vessel history principia will have to load on each scene change?
<discord-> s​martdummies. — I too see the slow scene changes, it takes 4 minutes or so to switch scenes. I have always assumed it was related to the file size - I am trying to keep it under 350 MB but that's getting harder as I get more things going on at once.
<discord-> P​rofiremu23. — How to delete the vessel history without deleting the craft?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Land it, or hack gravity.
<discord-> l​pg. — I have it down to a single month-old vessel on its way to pluto. 7MB save, 5-minute scene change
<discord-> P​rofiremu23. — @Butcher I tried hacking gravity, but don't delete the history
<discord-> S​tandecco. — 5 minutes with a single vessel?
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<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2683: ToMathematica for polynomials and (not quite) Poisson series - https://git.io/JJArk
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4469/
<discord-> R​ingo. — What is the inclination to have a stable Mars orbit?
<discord-> R​ingo. — What is the orbit inclination to have a stable Mars orbit? (edited)
<discord-> R​ingo. — What should be a Mars orbit inclination to have a stable orbit? (edited)
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Any? IIRC there are no unstable inclination around mars
<discord-> R​ingo. — Okay, I thought it was like the Moon where you have to get a correct inclination to have a stable orbit
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — The moon is like that due to earth being nearby
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — And masscons
<discord-> R​ingo. — Yeah
<discord-> R​ingo. — Thanks
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2683: ToMathematica for polynomials and (not quite) Poisson series - https://git.io/JJArk
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4469/
<discord-> Z​eusbeer. — lpg is it not possible for you to destroy (terminate) all the debris and ships you aren't using? it can't be that heartbreaking
<discord-> l​pg. — swear to god people can't read
<discord-> e​gg. — @lpg do you happen to have one of the extension mods that add further celestials to RSS?
<discord-> l​pg. — no
<discord-> e​gg. — wait nevermind, ephemeris catchup would take the same time in the absence of vessels anyway
<discord-> l​pg. — The non-scientific impression I'm getting is that it's vessels sent _to_ the outer planets that are causing a problem, and the further out the destination, the worse it gets - with Pluto & Neptune being the worst.
<discord-> e​gg. — hmmm
<discord-> e​gg. — those vessels will have loooong flight plans, maybe you are hitting the ephemeris recomputation to back those
<discord-> l​pg. — pluto vessel has a flight plan, neptune doesn't, and both cause the issue when it's the only vessel in the save.
<discord-> l​pg. — they _did_ have a flight plan for doing the actual burn out, of course. ghost plans?
<discord-> l​pg. — next thing I'm trying is to load one of the vessels and see if playing with prediction settings & reference frames does anything. Not that I exect it to, but I'm out of ideas
<discord-> e​gg. — just send us the save at this point
<discord-> l​pg. — they're not even especially long transfers; sub-10-year to destination. But still might longer than anything else I've done
<discord-> l​pg. — they're not even especially long transfers; sub-10-year to destination. But still much longer than anything else I've done (edited)
<discord-> s​ichelgaita. — On the surface it sounds like the ephemeris is being prolonged *a lot*, maybe because the flight plan/prediction was very long at some point and the Tmax is still lurking somewhere.
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2683: ToMathematica for polynomials and (not quite) Poisson series - https://git.io/JJArk
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy pushed 8 commits to master [+0/-0/±31] https://git.io/JJhXB
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy 83afb1d - ToMathematica for polynomials.
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy ad86f43 - Add SetDelayed.
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy efb8702 - Broken output of Poisson series.
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] ... and 5 more commits.
<discord-> T​heVoid230. — At what speed does gravity work?
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] lpgagnon commented on issue #2640: Crash during flight planning - https://git.io/JJhXM
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] lpgagnon commented on issue #2641: Crash when staging/decoupling - https://git.io/JJhXS
<discord-> B​utcher. — All the speeds.
<discord-> T​heVoid230. — Consider: Why is the earth not pulled to where the Sun was 8 minutes ago?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Because of gravity.
<discord-> T​heVoid230. — So gravity is transmitting faster than the speed of light?
<discord-> Q​2C. — Hey, ever since I installed principia KSP crashes every time i try to load a save, what's the matter?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Oh I see what you mean.
<discord-> D​amien. — @Q2C do you have any additional celestials added that may be in unstable orbits?
<discord-> D​amien. — in any case the principia logs should tell you whaty happened
<discord-> D​amien. — in any case the principia logs should tell you what happened (edited)
<discord-> Q​2C. — I have RealMoons and ReanETNOs
<discord-> D​amien. — that'll be it
<discord-> Q​2C. — Ah so I can't use these?
<discord-> D​amien. — guess not
<discord-> D​amien. — if something isn't stable and results in a collision = crash
<discord-> Q​2C. — Sad Sedna noises
<discord-> Q​2C. — Alright thanks, removing it
<discord-> Q​2C. — and where can I find those logs?
<discord-> D​amien. — kerbalspaceprogram/glog
<discord-> Q​2C. — Yeaaa ok it has missing gravity models for the ETNOs
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] lpgagnon opened issue #2685: Very long scene changes with outer-planet probes - https://git.io/JJh1c
<discord-> S​tandecco. — @TheVoid230 the gravitation field changes at the speed of light, yes
<discord-> S​tandecco. — don't' quote me on this, but I think all the fundamental fields have the same properties that the electromagnetic field has
<discord-> T​heVoid230. — @Standecco Why is the earth not pulled to where the Sun was 8 minutes ago?
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy labeled issue #2685: Very long scene changes with outer-planet probes - https://git.io/JJh1c
<discord-> S​tandecco. — it is, I guess
<discord-> S​tandecco. — but effectively everything is coherent
<discord-> S​tandecco. — any information you could possibly receive or send to/from the sun goes at the speed of light (or slower), so it's not that the Earth is pulled where the sun was 8 minutes ago, it's "just" that the sun, from the reference point of Earth, is only in one place; there is no "8 minutes ago" and "now", since it doesn't make sense exactly in the same way that saying that the Earth is pulled from the p
<discord-> T​heVoid230. — But if the earth was pulled to where the sun was 8 minutes ago, would it not introduce a torque that would fling the earth out of orbit
<discord-> S​tandecco. — again, the Earth is not pulled where the sun was 8 minutes ago
<discord-> S​tandecco. — physics doesn't work that way
<discord-> S​tandecco. — the sun is literally there, from Earth
<discord-> T​heVoid230. — so gravity is working faster than the speed of light?
<discord-> S​tandecco. — no, it works at exactly the speed of light
<discord-> Q​2C. — Sorry to interrupt again but after removing RealETNOs the save loads properly, but the whole KSC is unclickable and all buttons are either greyed out or just don't work
<discord-> S​tandecco. — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone
<discord-> D​amien. — @Q2C test it out on a new save to rule out the save beingg screwed
<discord-> D​amien. — @Q2C test it out on a new save to rule out the save being screwed (edited)
<discord-> Q​2C. — Alright gonna try that
<discord-> l​pg. — that unclickable bug shows up ever 5 damn minutes in the support channels. try searching there
<discord-> Q​2C. — @lpg Really? I'll see
<discord-> s​cimas. — @Q2C That's likely a stock KSP bug. You probably only need to clear the input locks from the cheat menu.
<discord-> Q​2C. — @scimas How do I do that?
<discord-> s​cimas. — The alt-F12 menu, don't remember exactly which tab in there, but should be easy to find.
<discord-> K​irk. — F7 will also clear input locks
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #2685: Very long scene changes with outer-planet probes - https://git.io/JJhMX
<discord-> Q​2C. — Am I supposed to push it after loading the save? Just restarted, created a new one, pressed F7 and the same thing happens
<discord-> Q​2C. — Good lord this is so frustrating with the 5+ minute loadtimes on rss heh
<discord-> s​cimas. — @TheVoid230 I'm not sure whether you're talking about real life or KSP / Principia. It doesn't happen in the game because neither stock KSP nor Principia is a general or even special relativity simulation. In real life, if you're working with Newtonian gravity, the "speed of gravity" is infinite - the effects are instantaneous. If you are working in general relativity, you choose a reference frame
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — Alt: the angular distance between the current position of the gravitational source, and it's position when accounting for the speed of causality (ie light) -- that is, the error you are trying to account for -- is ... diminimus.
<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] lpgagnon commented on issue #2685: Very long scene changes with outer-planet probes - https://git.io/JJhyv
<discord-> e​gg. — @Q2C at this point I think you are no longer running into Principia-specific issues, so you should probably ask for general RO support in something like #ro-support
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<discord-> S​tandecco. — also a good point, but the error is not _always_ negligible if you're using newtonian gravity; with general relativity, space and time coordinates are unique, and as scimas said, the universe has no consideration of where an object was; where an object _is_ (relative to your frame of reference), though, depends on the frame itself, but the position is one and one only; all possible observations
<discord-> s​iimav. — Isn't that caused by the clickthroughblocker yet again?
<discord-> Q​2C. — Now I have a different problem, loading is stuck on RasterPropMonitor even after 2 reinstalls and at this point I'm probably gonna go back to that tomorrow
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<discord-> Z​eusbeer. — did you follow !install with the latest version of ckan?
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<_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] lpgagnon edited a comment on issue #2685: Very long scene changes with outer-planet probes - https://git.io/JJhyv
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