raptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Galileo. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, 1.7.x, 1.8.1, and 1.9.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<discord->
konstantinua00. — earth does get pulled to where Sun was 8 minutes ago **in earth point of view**
<discord->
konstantinua00. — but it's such a small angular difference that it's undetectable
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<discord->
konstantinua00. — I remember doing front-of-the-napkin calculations saying that the angle becomes "big" only on the "2 masses of Sun orbitting each other 1 sun radius apart" scale
<discord->
konstantinua00. — I remember doing front-of-the-napkin calculations that said that the angle becomes "big" only on the "2 masses of Sun orbitting each other 1 sun radius apart" scale (edited)
<discord->
Kirk. — But even then it shouldn't actually effect the orbits
<discord->
Kirk. — From the perspective of every body involved, they are responding to where the other body is, not where it was
<discord->
Kirk. — Well, it does make a difference, but in most cases its minor enough that an orbit that's stable ignoring relativity is stable when relativity is enforced
<discord->
konstantinua00. — earth does get pulled to where Sun was 8 minutes ago **in earth point of view**
<discord->
konstantinua00. — but it's such a **small** angular difference that it's undetectable (edited)
<discord->
konstantinua00. — > From the perspective of every body involved, they are responding to where the other body is, not where it was
<discord->
konstantinua00. — I guess I don't understand how's that possible, but it's quite in line with relativity/qt style... so I'd love to read where you got that info from @Kirk
<discord->
konstantinua00. — if I threw a dart, while moving
<discord->
konstantinua00. — and you looked at orientation of the dart
<discord->
konstantinua00. — you'd probably guess where I am at the moment
<discord->
konstantinua00. —
<discord->
konstantinua00. — but gravity/light is a wave
<discord->
konstantinua00. — so you only get directlon where it comes from
<discord->
konstantinua00. — if I threw a stone with a mark showing the "closest to me" side, while moving
<discord->
konstantinua00. — and you looked at the mark
<discord->
konstantinua00. — you'd probably guess where I am at the moment
<discord->
konstantinua00. — because mark would keep looking at me in my PoV, so it would in yours too
<discord->
konstantinua00. —
<discord->
konstantinua00. — but gravity/light is a wave
<discord->
konstantinua00. — so you only get directlon where it comes from (edited)
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<discord->
Skylar. — I wonder what impacts it could have at much higher velocities, like, if someone was using a solar sail mod or did a crazy nuclear engine setup
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<discord->
konstantinua00. — @Skylar if the ship doesn't noticably affect Sun's movement, situation is same as always - Kepler's orbit parameters, maybe slightly stiffer due to relativity
<discord->
konstantinua00. — you can check that bylooking from Sun's PoV - you're pretty much stationary, while some stuff is passing by
<discord->
konstantinua00. — @Skylar if the ship doesn't noticably affect Sun's movement, situation is same as always - Kepler's orbit parameters, maybe slightly stiffer due to relativity
<discord->
konstantinua00. — you can check that by looking from Sun's PoV - you're pretty much stationary, while some stuff is passing by (edited)
<discord->
Standecco. — it's not that it undetectable because it's small, it's undetectable because _there is no difference_
<discord->
Standecco. — there is no such concept as "8 minutes ago"; there is just "now" in the universe
<discord->
konstantinua00. — there's no "now" just as there's no main frame of reference
<discord->
Standecco. — the "now" is relative, but that doesn't meant that there's no now
<discord->
Standecco. — it would be like saying that speed doesn't exist because it's relative to your reference frame
<discord->
Standecco. — every point in the universe has a (4d) time cone, which has a linearly expanding radius (duh, it's a cone) that is distance that light (and gravity, and information in general) can travel in a certain amount of time
<discord->
Standecco. — that is your past, and future, which is absolutely relative to your particular point in space
<discord->
Standecco. — but my point is that what you see is the only thing that you could be seeing; the concept of "8 minutes ago" doesn't make sense, because it would be 8 minutes ago _from what_?
<discord->
Skylar. — yes, and with most simulations on a home computer, the speed of light is infinite and finite.
<discord->
Standecco. — every point in the universe has a (4d) time cone, which has a linearly expanding radius (duh, it's a cone) that is the distance that light (and gravity, and information in general) can travel in a certain amount of time (edited)
<discord->
Skylar. — I mean, even if it was achievable to put in principia there are more urgent things that it needs, but still in theory wouldn't there be a difference when dealing with some edge cases?
<discord->
Standecco. — oh of course it makes absolutely no sense in principia
<discord->
konstantinua00. — probably closest edge case achivable would be relativistic speed
<discord->
konstantinua00. — any other effect is too edgy
<discord->
Standecco. — relativity and black holes make for some interesting orbits (imagine lunar mascons, but rotating at 100 rev/s), but using the complicated equations for general relativity in our solar system would only yield an imperceptible mercury precession
<discord->
Skylar. — I hope I live to see the day where there is a ksp like game with full relativistic effects simulated lol
<discord->
Standecco. — ugh, I can't find the video where I had seen the wonky black hole orbits
<discord->
Skylar. — lol, the title is sooo misleading
<discord->
Skylar. — I'm pretty sure that that is just going to get a stupid amount of energy but not infinite
<discord->
Vecr. — Can't get infinite anyway, the black hole would evaporate at some point.
<discord->
Standecco. — conservation of energy is always maintained; getting energy from the black hole reduces its momentum (which happens to be enormously large)
<discord->
Standecco. — so yeah it's not infinite, even if we ignored black hole evaporation
<discord->
Skylar. — I mean, given that there is energy in the unverse to begin with it would stand to reason that there is *some* form of exploit even if its practically unnattainable inside the universe?
<discord->
Standecco. — perhaps it's just a cycle of big bangs and big crunches
<discord->
Standecco. — or perhaps energy conservation is just a convenient thing that happens at our scale; dark energy is a thing, in the end
<discord->
Skylar. — oh yeah that also reminds me
<discord->
Skylar. — it bothers me that people act like FTL travel is impossible rather than insanely impracticle
<discord->
Standecco. — depends on what you mean for FTL travel; it might be actually impossible
<discord->
Standecco. — if you mean relativistic travel, then of course it's possible; actual FTL, though, not necessarily
<discord->
Skylar. — given wasn't the big bang faster than 300,000,000 m/s?
<discord->
Standecco. — expansion of space is faster than c, but that's not useful at all
<discord->
Standecco. — there is no guarantee that the alcubierre drive would work
<discord->
Standecco. — nor that exotic matter exists
<discord->
Skylar. — its not *practical* but if it happened in the big bang than it technically *can* happen even if it can't really be utilized by humans
<discord->
Standecco. — nothing was traveling, mind you
<discord->
Standecco. — it's just that space was expanding really fast; I'm not even sure how you define an expansion speed
<discord->
Standecco. — imagine the classic (and widely hated, apparently) example of the balloon; you live in the surface of the balloon, and that surface is space itself; someone (god I guess) blows into the balloon, and the surface expands; the distance between you and every point next to you gets larger, but no one is moving since every point remains in the same position relative to each other
<discord->
Standecco. — unless we could create an alcubierre drive and it could go over c, there is still no way to move faster than light
<discord->
Skylar. — well, yeah, but, what im saying is that implies that in some form, even if it would never be practical and even if humans could never replicate it, that faster than light travel is possible via the universe itself being manipulated?
<discord->
Standecco. — that's mostly a matter of semantics then, right?
<discord->
konstantinua00. — > it bothers me that people act like FTL travel is impossible rather than insanely impracticle
<discord->
konstantinua00. — it's just that people in the know are afraid of non-causality
<discord->
Skylar. — imagine if causality is wrong and the intelligence agencies gets tools to peer into the near future and gain information without being dedetected, and plan decades in advance perfectly
<discord->
Skylar. — 🧠
<discord->
Butcher. — I think you give them too much credit.
<discord->
Skylar. — lol, let me correct that
<discord->
Skylar. — imagine when they give security agencies the ability to peer 2 minutes in the future that they can't figure out how to utilize very well and just use it to see what will happen more as trivia*
<UmbralRaptop>
… as far as defining cosmological expansion, \frac{\dot a}{a}
<UmbralRaptop>
Hence why the Hubble constant has those units (km/s/Mpc)
<UmbralRaptop>
(eg: for H_0 = 70, objects more than ~4.3 Gpc are moving away at >c)
<discord->
konstantinua00. — where does this bot copy messages from?
<discord->
Anomaly. — Yeah I wanted to ask that too.
<discord->
siimav. — It's the AI egg has been working on
<discord->
Anomaly. — Figures
<discord->
Standecco. — it's an irc bridge
<discord->
Standecco. — makes sense, Umbral, thanks
<discord->
Anomaly. — Sorry, what's an irc?
<discord->
Anomaly. — Oh great I'm being clapped at 😅
<discord->
Standecco. — a chat service
<discord->
Standecco. — basically
<discord->
Standecco. — much less fancier than discord
<discord->
konstantinua00. — > Sorry, what's an irc?
<discord->
konstantinua00. — slack with worse interface
<discord->
Anomaly. — Gotcha
<discord->
Butcher. — IRC is what we had back in the olden days.
<discord->
Butcher. — And by olden days I mean, *last millenium*.
<discord->
Builderbast. — is anyone else having trouble with butchers script?
<discord->
Butcher. — Nope.
<discord->
Builderbast. — oh wait facepalm moment
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<discord->
smartdummies. — @DRVeyl my fault. Brain remembers the 33.6 and substituted that back in for the 2400. Brain is now requesting more coffee.
<discord->
lamont. — 300 baud acoustically coupled with the cradle for the handset
<discord->
smartdummies. — Ok that goes back further than me. The important question is did you use it to play a game of global thermonuclear war?
<discord->
smartdummies. — But I will admit I got started programming using basic on a second hand TRS-80
<discord->
smartdummies. — No floppys, had to use cassette tapes
<discord->
lamont. — i had a color computer
<discord->
lamont. — learned basic on a 4k PET
<discord->
smartdummies. — A CoCo! You had color
<discord->
smartdummies. — Did the PET support the RENUM command?
<discord->
lamont. — hahaha, i have no idea. maybe?
<discord->
lamont. — i kind of think not
<discord->
egg. — @blowfish it looks like AJE responds to the vessel main throttle setting, rather to the engine’s own throttle setting, so I cannot wire up a dual-throttle setup
<discord->
egg. — (mapping one of the engines to a custom axis, with throttle set to independent, and mapping that axis to a separate controller)
<discord->
egg. — (mapping one of the engines to a custom axis, with throttle set to independent, and mapping that axis to a separate controller axis) (edited)
<discord->
blowfish. — hmm, that probably never got updated from those changes
<discord->
blowfish. — create an issue and I can take a look
<discord->
egg. — sounds like a plan
<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] Bellabong commented on issue #2641: Crash when staging/decoupling - https://git.io/JJjMG
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<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2686: Try to appease the gods of Clang - https://git.io/JJjDe
<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2686: Try to appease the gods of Clang - https://git.io/JJjDe
<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] pleroy pushed 2 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] https://git.io/JJjDv
<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] pleroy 8d16256 - Try to appease the gods of Clang.
<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] pleroy 3a67e13 - Merge pull request #2686 from pleroy/Clang Try to appease the gods of Clang
<discord->
egg. — @blowfish cursory poking around shows that the issue is here https://github.com/KSP-RO/SolverEngines/blob/master/SolverEngines/EngineModule.cs#L254, the stock `ModuleEngines.UpdateThrottle` uses `independentThrottlePercentage` if `independentThrottle` is set (and it also takes `thrustPercentage` into account, I believe that is the thrust limiter).
<discord->
egg. — I accordingly will open an issue in that repository
<discord->
egg. — I will accordingly open an issue in that repository (edited)
<discord->
egg. — the numbers look consistent, did it change manœuvre frame somehow ?
<discord->
lpg. — I'm fairly sure the maneuver was originally plotted with MCMF selected in both (and didn't impact)
<discord->
egg. — hm
<discord->
egg. — OK, what happens if you add and remove 1 mm/s to one component
<discord->
lpg. — keeps the impacting trajectory. it's the true trajectory; my first indication something was wrong was while executing the maneuver and realizing the Ap and Pe weren't going where I expected
<discord->
lpg. — the trajectory shown right after quickload matches a burn started a couple of minutes earlier
<discord->
lpg. — the trajectory shown right after quickload matches a burn started a couple of minutes earlier than planned (edited)
<discord->
lpg. — reload, then changing the Plotting frame selection keeps the "wrong" planned trajectory. still only "fixes" itself after expanding the maneuver
<discord->
lpg. — Curiouser and curiouser: right after reload I hit the Rebase button (I _expected_ this might fix it, like expanding the maneuver) and I get _this_
<discord->
lpg. — again, expanding the maneuver reveals the correct, impact-after-3/4-orbit trajectory
<discord->
lpg. — ahah. Got it. the right-after-reload trajectory is using Instant Impulse
<discord->
lpg. — expanding the maneuver switches to active engines (the correct setting)
<discord->
egg. — ah
<discord->
lpg. — Doesn't explain how I plotted that wrong trajectory in the first place, but I'm happy to call that user error
<discord->
lpg. — ah. confirmed it was user error. And an additional variable that arguably makes this "not a bug": I loaded a save from right after TLI burn, with capture maneuver already plotted; turns out it was plotted before ditching the TLI stage. So not "instant impulse", but a much shorter burn with a much pore powereful engine
<discord->
lpg. — So apparently the plotted maneuver was "remembered" across the save/load with the wrong engine, but simply expanding the maneuver made it refresh with the new engine
<discord->
lpg. — ah. confirmed it was user error. And an additional variable that arguably makes this "not a bug": I loaded a save from right after TLI burn, with capture maneuver already plotted; turns out it was plotted before ditching the TLI stage. So not "instant impulse", but a much shorter burn with a much pore powerful engine (edited)
<discord->
lpg. — ah. confirmed it was user error. And an additional variable that arguably makes this "not a bug": I loaded a save from right after TLI burn, with capture maneuver already plotted; turns out it was plotted before ditching the TLI stage. So not "instant impulse", but a much shorter burn with a much more powerful engine (edited)
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<discord-_>
Builderbast. — I gotta rename the latest release to just "principia" for it to work right?
<discord-_>
lpg. — if you see something needing renaming, you've downloaded the wrong thing
<discord-_>
Builderbast. — I updated and now I have the "Principia-2020081903-Galois" folder in my gamedata.
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<discord-_>
Builderbast. — downlaoded from github releases