06:02 <discord-> A​nomaly. — To perform a ballistic capture, do you have to be in the Moon's plane?

06:43 <discord-> B​utcher. — More or less I think, since you need to be able to do multiple passes close to it.

06:43 <discord-> B​utcher. — I guess in theory you could make it work on any plans if you could get the timing right.

08:25 <discord-> j​orian150. — Is this normal? Couldnt even put yt music in the background

08:25 <discord-> j​orian150. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/743747038617010226/unknown.png

08:25 <discord-> B​utcher. — Yes, that is normal.

08:26 <discord-> j​orian150. — ok than, luckily i have 16 gb of ram than haha

08:27 <discord-> B​utcher. — 16GB is adequate, things run better on 32GB.

08:28 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — I have 8 gb of ram

08:28 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — bruh to me

08:30 <discord-> j​orian150. — 8gb of ram is enough for a lot of games i believe

08:30 <discord-> j​orian150. — but not for principia haha

08:31 <discord-> S​kylar. — lol, because of this game I had to upgrade to 32gb of ram xD

08:31 <discord-> B​utcher. — I would if my laptop would allow it.

08:32 <discord-> j​orian150. — you can play this on a laptop?! must be a beast of a thing than

08:32 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — I have no problems playing 8gb with Prinicpia w/RP-1

08:34 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — I got a Venus flyby in first attempt! (I had 1.8 degree os relative incilnation to Luna)

08:34 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/743749328362799124/screenshot298.png

08:34 <discord-> B​utcher. — @jorian150 Not really, it has an MX250 graphics card.

08:35 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — Best part is i don't need correction burns like Vénus-1 did

08:35 <discord-> B​utcher. — @jorian150 Not really, it has an MX250 graphics card, and a quad core i7. (edited)

08:36 <discord-> j​orian150. — ah think cpu is important, might explain the relatively poor performance of my machine with a r5 1600

08:39 <discord-> S​kylar. — when it comes to the computer components it would be nice if laptops were designed to be easier to change out components, and if CPUs didn't have backdoors (or if there was an open source alternative), but, that is wayy off topic for this channel xD

08:40 <discord-> B​utcher. — Is anything offtopic for this channel?

08:40 <discord-> j​orian150. — with laptops you pay for transportability

08:41 <discord-> B​utcher. — Laptops have the trade off of size vs customisability - you can make things smaller by mounting hardware directly to the board.

08:41 <discord-> B​utcher. — Like this one, it's an ultra book, so it's great for carrying around, but you pay for it with the lack of upgrade potential.

08:42 <discord-> S​kylar. — like, I get on the ultraslim laptops

08:42 <discord-> B​utcher. — In hindsight, I hadnt realised we would be in lockdown for months when I bought it.

08:42 <discord-> S​kylar. — but aren't the bulkier ones with that issue as well?

08:42 <discord-> B​utcher. — You can usually upgrade things like memory and disk on the larger stuff.

08:43 <discord-> B​utcher. — CPUs not so much - that's often due to the way the cooling system is integrated.

08:43 <discord-> S​kylar. — ah, I have never owned a laptop before. well, I guess that's pretty chill then

08:43 <discord-> S​kylar. — and ye I get CPUs, but, drives, ram, gpu, and battery on bulkier performance laptops should be standardized with some plausibility in replacing

08:43 <discord-> B​utcher. — Also again, they have the cpu mouned direct which reduces height since you don't need a socket.

08:44 <discord-> S​kylar. — ye

08:44 <discord-> B​utcher. — Battery is an interesting one as ideally you have them packed into all the available space which makes them weird shapes.

08:44 <discord-> B​utcher. — But at the same time, it's the component most prone to failure.

08:45 <discord-> S​kylar. — imagine just

08:45 <discord-> S​kylar. — having a battery that is basically injection molded into a computer big brain style lol

08:46 <discord-> S​kylar. — literally *no* space inside the device isn't being used for *something*

08:46 <discord-> S​kylar. — having a battery that is somehow basically injection molded into a computer big brain style lol (edited)

08:48 <discord-> S​kylar. — oh yeah but, back to before

08:48 <discord-> S​kylar. — unironically we need open source consumer grade CPUs so bad.

12:43 <discord-> s​cimas. — I've come to realize that the biggest problem with laptop performance is the heat management system. Some laptops have it designed really well and so can make full use of the i7/9 grade CPUs and GPUs at high clock rates. And then there are others like mine, which throttle down after about 10-15 min of KSP 😑

13:20 <discord-> B​utcher. — Mine throttles if I'm on battery.

15:56 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — I am a crazy son of a biscuit, i doing a rendezvous without any help

15:57 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — And i about to make a manuver with makes the encounter with the dummy target

15:57 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — Is a way to see your closest approch to a vessel in Principia?

16:02 <discord-> s​cimas. — Select target and change plotting frame to Target LVLH

16:04 <discord-> s​cimas. — > Another fun fatal, reproduced twice now:

16:04 <discord-> s​cimas. — > `F0809 18:09:53.740532 6548 not_null_body.hpp:33] Check failed: other != nullptr `

16:04 <discord-> s​cimas. — Had the same crash today, unfortunately couldn't reproduce.

16:09 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — Thanks!

16:22 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — I did the rendezvous

16:22 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — From 3000 meters

16:23 <discord-> P​rofiremu23. — Next time, i will try to bring down to 1 meters

18:45 <discord-> F​alcon. — Running into a bit of an issue, instant impulse from what i remember meant that you burned constantly at a node and werent able to gimbal or change the direction you pointed in, well the active engine i have burns for about 30 seconds, and the manuever planner is seeing it burn for only 2.8 seconds, which is feeding false information as to where i should point and when. Any idea as to how to corre

18:45 <discord-> F​alcon. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/743903190851780678/screenshot1127.png

18:47 <discord-> l​pg. — for one thing you're confusing instant impulse and intertially fixed

18:47 <discord-> l​pg. — for one thing you're confusing instant impulse and inertially fixed (edited)

18:48 <discord-> l​pg. — if you'll have no guidance but the active engine is correct, turn on Intertially Fixed, turn off Instant Impulse and you'll have correct times

18:50 <discord-> F​alcon. — the active engine keeps reading for a 112 second burn, when it only burns for 38 seconds

18:50 <discord-> l​pg. — however from your screenshot, you have a stage attached that you'll be dumping; _that_ probably means principia's getting bad twr numbers to work off of

18:51 <discord-> l​pg. — presumably that stage to be dumped is your pointer stage, meaning you can't dump it early. In that case using Instant Impulse and eyeballing when to actually burn is probably your best option

18:52 <discord-> F​alcon. — thats the issue though is that it keeps trying to plot for a 112 second burn instead of the 38 seconds which it is even though i have the active engine properly selected and activated

18:52 <discord-> l​pg. — I don't know how to explain it more clearly

18:54 <discord-> F​alcon. — i know what you are telling me to do, but im telling you that instant impulse and active engines are getting bad data, rather that is the fault of the stage before it, or what, but they arent sharing similar fuels or anything. So i dont see why the data its getting for the kick stage is weird

18:55 <discord-> l​pg. — principia doesn't know you're going to be dumping a stage

18:55 <discord-> F​alcon. — i know that, but i dont see why dumping a stage or not should determine the burn time on that engine

18:55 <discord-> l​pg. — it's looking at the active engine's thrust, it's looking at your current mass, it derives burn time fom that

18:55 <discord-> l​pg. — it's looking at the active engine's thrust, it's looking at your current mass, it derives burn time for a given amount of dv from that (edited)

18:55 <discord-> F​alcon. — can it not see the amount of fuel in which that engine has available?

18:56 <discord-> l​pg. — that is of no relevance

18:56 <discord-> l​pg. — principia doesn't care whether you have enough fuel for the maneuvers you plot

18:57 <discord-> l​pg. — principia also doesn't attempt to plan maneuvers across staging events

18:57 <discord-> F​alcon. — ive done it perfectly fine before

18:57 <discord-> F​alcon. — and with solid stages on top of another stage

18:57 <discord-> l​pg. — you've used instant impulse

18:57 <discord-> F​alcon. — no i didnt, i put an agena on top of a centaur

18:58 <discord-> F​alcon. — plotted one maneuver on top of another using two separate active engines

18:58 <discord-> F​alcon. — went flawlessly

18:58 <discord-> D​erple Purp. — ok this is unrelated but why did you put the agena on the centaur and not the other way around

18:58 <discord-> l​pg. — you got lucky and learned the wrong lessons. or you're just misremembering

18:58 <discord-> F​alcon. — ... agena is smaller than centaur

18:59 <discord-> D​erple Purp. — this is vacuum only, yes?

18:59 <discord-> F​alcon. — correct

18:59 <discord-> D​erple Purp. — then you have greater delta v using your lower ISP fuel first regardless of TWR

18:59 <discord-> F​alcon. — but im not misremembering, lemme go pull up the mission reports for it

18:59 <discord-> B​utcher. — Principia plotting assumes your current mass is only changed by burning fuel, not by staging, that is your issue.

19:00 <discord-> F​alcon. — i have done it perfectly fine before though, which is why im baffled as to why its not working now

19:00 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — What was the mass of the dropped stage vs the next tage in the two cases?

19:01 <discord-> F​alcon. — and Derple they had both the same isp basically

19:01 <discord-> F​alcon. — LF2 agena on top of a RL10 centaur

19:01 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — What was the mass of the dropped stage vs the next stage in the two cases? (edited)

19:02 <discord-> l​pg. — the thing to be baffled about isn't why it's not working now, it's how it ever worked at all

19:03 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — @Falcon When you got this working, did the centaur have a small amount of fuel left?

19:04 <discord-> F​alcon. — the centaur burned all the way through providing about 2.5-3 km/s more velocity, decoupled, waited about 10 seconds, then ignited the LF2 agena

19:05 <discord-> F​alcon. — it of course required some fine tuning in the end from the probe because the RCS adjusted the course a bit as it aligned after the impulse from the decoupler, but overall it was maybe 5 m/s of deep space maneuvering?

19:05 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — If the case is that the mass of fuel depleted in nodes before is accounted for, then the dry mass of the centaur wouldn't affect the next node too much

19:06 <discord-> F​alcon. — dry mass of that centaur was probably about 500 kg with the adapter, engines, fuel tank and avionics

19:06 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — But in this new case I guess that the dropped stage has a significant dry mass?

19:07 <discord-> F​alcon. — 300 kg or so yeah

19:09 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — I *think* that the reason it worked last time is because the dry mass of the centaur was so small compared to the rest of the vessel, while it doesn't this time because the dropped mass is significant

19:09 <discord-> F​alcon. — this kick stage is about 270 kg in total fully fueled, the agena on top of that centaur was about 9 tons with payload fully fueled

19:11 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — So principia is assuming 47% of the acctual accelleration, which gives a longer burn time to achieve the same dV

19:11 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — In the case with the centaur principia assumed 95% of the accelleration

19:12 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — So principia is assuming 47% of the actual accelleration, which gives a longer burn time to achieve the same dV (edited)

19:12 <discord-> F​alcon. — if i remember correctly, which i wont because it was 5 months ago or so, the GCRC i put on top of a fairly similar upper stage to what i have now, had no issues with instant impulse and inertially fixed

19:12 <discord-> F​alcon. — if i remember correctly, which i wont guarantee because it was 5 months ago or so, the GCRC i put on top of a fairly similar upper stage to what i have now, had no issues with instant impulse and inertially fixed (edited)

19:13 <discord-> l​pg. — > presumably that stage to be dumped is your pointer stage, meaning you can't dump it early. In that case using Instant Impulse and eyeballing when to actually burn is probably your best option

19:14 <discord-> F​alcon. — i cant eyeball even remotely close if it keeps feeding bad data

19:16 <discord-> l​pg. — then that's the ball game. get yourself a real transfer stage

19:17 <discord-> F​alcon. — i shouldnt have to when this is how stuff was done irl, but im working on that bit, just trying to rush a bit earlier and grab a contract

19:17 <discord-> S​tonesmile. — What info is it that you want?

19:18 <discord-> F​alcon. — i want it to allow me to just plan the dang burn attached to my pointer with the engine in question lit.

19:18 <discord-> F​alcon. — What is it about principia btw that prevents it from recognizing staging events?

19:18 <discord-> l​pg. — then convince egg to add the extra smarts the planner would need

19:19 <discord-> l​pg. — not being able to read minds would be a tricky one to solve, though

19:22 <discord-> F​alcon. — i know im not the one coding it and designing it, but i would think something like staging or doing multiple burns like that would be included as it is common in real life to do a burn then light a star 48 for example

20:01 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Things that are interesting to Principia: Mathematical techniques, multi-body solutions.

20:01 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Things that are not interesting to Principia: Sorting out what parts will still be present and what engines will be lit after whatever KSP does to execute a staging event. Or how many staging events in the future that should be handled for.

20:17 <_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2603 commit - https://git.io/JJ5nH

20:17 <_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2603 commit - https://git.io/JJ5nQ

20:20 <discord-> s​ichelgaita. — What @DRVeyl said.

20:27 <discord-> B​utcher. — I'm sure they would accept a PR. 😉

20:41 <discord-> l​amont. — mechjeb has code to handle fuel flow and staging and compute burn times. it is some of the worst and hardest to understand code in mechjeb. you'd have to decipher it, convert it from C# to C++ and get it into a form that Principia could consume. it should only take a few hundred hours of your time, minimum.

20:59 <_whitenotifier-9244> [Principia] Mathieu-S starred Principia - https://git.io/JJ5Wk

21:02 <discord-> B​utcher. — And then people would complain that their weird stage and a quarter ship didn't burn correctly anyway.

21:02 <discord-> l​amont. — yeeeeeep

21:03 <discord-> l​amont. — i'm really thinking mechjeb was almost a mistake at this point

21:28 <discord-> e​gg. — « stage and a quarter » sounds disturbing

21:37 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Eh... that's unfortunate. I think people have gotten a ton of value from MJ's automation. That there is demand for it to work with certain corner-cases, and that it's maybe from folks playing RP-1 trying to do contracts that MJ [especially PVG] isn't intended to cover... I can see where that can be frustrating. I think that's more a testament to how much people come to rely on MJ/PVG, tho, that

21:37 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

21:37 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — So your only mistake, at this point, might be in becoming a victim to your own success.

21:52 <discord-> B​utcher. — > « stage and a quarter » sounds disturbing

21:52 <discord-> B​utcher. — @egg it's meant to. 😈

21:53 <discord-> B​utcher. — A lot of the mj frustrations are people doing weird things, like mad staging or trying to launch into ludicrously high circular orbits.

21:54 <discord-> B​utcher. — Like, "why can't mj launch new straight into geo?"

21:54 <discord-> B​utcher. — Like, "why can't mj launch me straight into geo?" (edited)

21:56 <discord-> e​gg. — it can, with a sufficiently silly rocket,

21:59 <discord-> B​utcher. — I'm not sure how much dv that would take.

22:00 <discord-> l​pg. — that'd be a long coast and the mother of all doglegs

22:01 <discord-> B​utcher. — Depends where you launch from.

22:03 <discord-> l​pg. — people who ask "why can't mj launch me straight into geo?" launch from the cape

22:04 <raptop> Kourou!

22:06 <discord-> B​utcher. — Or Baikonur.