egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Yes; this is now outside the sim
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I thought it was weird that timewarp and physicswarp did not affect it (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I'll leave it just in case
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<queqiao->
⟨ZombieZilla⟩ My direction marker on the navball seems to be overlaying itself ontop of the other markers, covering them. Could this be an issue caused by principia?
<queqiao->
⟨ZombieZilla⟩ (Its happening on all reference frames, ECI is just clearer)
<queqiao->
⟨ZombieZilla⟩ (Its happening on all reference frames, its just easier to see on ECI)
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ @Paculino this is normal, you trajectory is sensitive to initial conditions. timewarp and physwarp etc. are irrelevant to your trajectory in Principia as long as you don’t fire an engine, that’s the point of our fancy integration
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<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Will the next 🌚 have the new fancy reference frame
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Will the next 🌚 have the new fancy reference frame? (edited)
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ no
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Also I think I found a way to launch into the correct LAN using only the Mk1 eyeball
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Also I think I found a way to launch into the correct LAN using only the Mk1 eyeball, it got me a 3490 m/s Venus transfer (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ I will try it again with the opposite of that that eyeball trick, see how much m/s that requires
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Also I think I found a way to launch into the correct LAN using only the Mk1 eyeball and the principia navball, it got me a 3490 m/s Venus transfer (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Hmm I don't feel like LAN matters that much anyway for Venus, In the worst case it was like 3780 m/s in total (a little normal correction relative to the sun)
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Hmm I don't feel like LAN matters that much anyway for Venus, In the worst case it was like 3780 m/s in total (a little binormal correction relative to the sun) (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ the main thing is just to have the correct launch window, and Kerbal alarm clock will happily do that for you
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ I shall attempt Pluto, considering that has a tricky LAN
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Your orbit around earth matters little to interplanetary transfers so long as you cab get the correct ejection angle
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Your orbit around earth matters little to interplanetary transfers so long as you can get the correct ejection angle (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ As far as Venus is concerned you're just in a solar orbit identical to earths
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ @Zeusbeer @Al2Me6 how actually relevant is that whole question of comms-window-during-manœuvre thing that the new reference frame would be for anyway ? @DRVeyl seemed to say that RP-1 doesn’t require comms for control ?
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ It does require comms for fine control, but you can use smart ASS for rotation and you can use 100% and 0% throttle without control
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ So technically no, you don't really need comms outside of data transfer
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ah so it’s some sort of compromise approach wherein the player is the flight computer, but an extremely dumb flight computer O_o
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Yes basically, but basically everything like orbit insertion can be done
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<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ RA doesn't override the stock (CommNet) definition of what control locks are set if you don't have link, ie "limited probe control" state.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah my question was more broadly about RP-1’s approach rather than specific to the technicalities of RA
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ The irritating thing is it is actually CommNet that sets the control locks to hardcoded values.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ in a hypothetical KC career (any century now) I’d definitely consider comms and control as decoupled (comms mattering more to the mission including in an extended way)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ but that also depends on the aspects you care about ; in the seventies your flight computer can be clever enough to do its orbital operations without a babysitter
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and on the other hand orbital operations has lots of fun that RP-1 cares little for)
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ (And it sets them I believe every cycle it updates. So RP-1 would also have a really ugly way to try to override that.)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah killing bits of KSP is always fun
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ask me how I know :-p
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ RP-1s approach is to not affect the stock behavior.
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Hah. Oh, I know. I thought I had done it right with the telemetry tooltip, but apparently not. (Or with the comm node and comm link classes...)
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Well. At this point, it probably is doable to replace that lock method as well. So we could make a configurable definition of what "limited control" allows. Or maybe even multiple such ideas.
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Haha... Yuck!
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ One of the problems with limiting control too much is that you could always pre-plan commands to be executed during comms blackout, that is only annoying to do in KSP, or you use kOS
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Principia does a *lot* of things on weird timings to fight the game
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah essentially it depends on whether you care about that as an aspect of the gameplay; if you are in a timeframe where « the flight computer can be sufficiently smart », then letting the player do whatever makes sense—less so in the fifties obviously
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah essentially it depends on whether you care about that as an aspect of the gameplay; if you are in a timeframe where « the flight computer can be sufficiently smart », then letting the player do whatever makes sense—less so in the fifties and sixties obviously (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and conversely making the player write their RealDO178 codebase may not be how *everyone* wants to play :-p)
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ For rp-1 specifically, it would be interesting to have the out-of-comms abilities change with tech
<queqiao->
⟨Sir Mortimer⟩ I wouldn't necessarily kill control on comms loss (assuming pre-programmed operations on the probe) - but definitely for data transmissions and/or mission critical communications.
<queqiao->
⟨Sir Mortimer⟩ Especially when comms are related to dish orientation. The game lacks everything that is needed to manage that aspect, so it would be unwise to make the player worry about something he basically has no control over.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ We had discussed that earlier with Dr Veyl though; this is tractable, and I believe it would add a really interesting dimension to mission design
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (scroll up for diagrams illustrating two kinds of attitude control laws)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (but I very much agree that this is only interesting if control is retained on comms loss, otherwise you need dish reorientation logic and you are back to making the player write flight software)
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3084: Avoid Earth-specific terms for apsides in the Chinese translation - https://git.io/JR3cX
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3084: Avoid Earth-specific terms for apsides in the Chinese translation - https://git.io/JR3cX
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<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Orientation for data but not control does sound interesting
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ I'm a big fan of complexity that isn't just button clicking grind like crew training (sorry @NathanKell
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Tell us again how you feel about that, @ Damien ;)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I mean, I do sympathize with complexity arising by modeling
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ arising, one might say, *from first principles*
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ I've warmed up to KCT build times. That's far enough for me lol
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Inbefore egg makes RP1 really hard
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Egg likes things that make you have to think about stuff. As opposed to playing space program manager 2021
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Right egg?
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ And I'm a fan
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ I would be in for egg making a patch that disallows control in dark comms
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ but for getting into LEO it would be pure pain
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ because you lose comms somewhere over that ocean
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ We are the computer though not a remote controller
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ that is very much the reverse of the sort of thing I am interested in :D
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ 🙂 thank you
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ I enjoyed planning out of comms manoeuvres using remotetech back when we used it but it's a poor man's kos
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah, and also I like the less-shiny infrastructure long-term uncrewed space aspects (I believe commsats/spysats can be interesting, essentially)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Unrelated: I wonder whether the in-flight camera should match the reference frame of the map view camera in orbital mode
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Some of the best fun I've had is learning weird stuff principia allows
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Any excuse to learn something
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3085: Refactor the ReferenceFrameSelector API - https://git.io/JR3aO
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy labeled pull request #3084: Avoid Earth-specific terms for apsides in the Chinese translation - https://git.io/JR3cX
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin closed pull request #3084: Avoid Earth-specific terms for apsides in the Chinese translation - https://git.io/JR3cX
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin pushed 2 commits to master [+0/-0/±6] https://git.io/JR3rr
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin 38624b0 - Merge pull request #3084 from eggrobin/3074 Avoid Earth-specific terms for apsides in the Chinese translation
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin closed issue #3074: Incorrect zh-cn translation of 'apoapsis' and 'periapsis' - https://git.io/JlvcF
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ Its always nice executing That final correction burn that has the impulse of a midsized fart, changing your lunar flyby into an ballistic capture
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Or setting up the encounter/flyby/impact before your comms can reach there
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ we've thoroughly established damien doesn't like mechanics that he can't actually see
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ So, blindfolds make him like stuff?
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ those would make it dislike everything
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Note the double negative
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ those would make him dislike everything (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ so, time to work on KC then?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Yeah I would like to poke at that soon
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ want a helping hand?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ right now I want to do the frame selector refactor though, I found the energy to get started
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ an inept, clumsy hand?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ well, you have eggsperience with the balancing aspects wherein I am very blind
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ my eggsperience consists of "uh, this number sounds reasonable for a 1990 experiment sending pictures from the outer planets every day"
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ well you are orange
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ that is more experience than I can boast with career
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I don’t think I have ever played KSP career mode, I did a science mode game for a bit when that came out
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ went to Eve
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ I've played a stock career when I bought the game, landed kerbals on the moon, got halfway through a manned Duna mission then started installing mods;
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ played RP1 up until lunar orbiters, and then basically never got further than that
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ so I'd say I'm extremely qualified for balancing anything up until late game, indeed
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ I was made orange without ever having played RP-1 😂
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ I've played a stock career when I bought the game, landed kerbals on the moon, got halfway through a manned Duna mission then started installing mods;
<queqiao->
⟨Standecco⟩ played RP1 (the first time I installed it) up until lunar orbiters, and then basically never got further than that (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ how do you know you actually got to a frozen orbit though
<raptop>
Obviously you notice the discontinuity in the orbit's specific heat, etc as it evolves
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Thats the neat part; you predict some noodles and call it a day, go to the main page and if kerbalism ever tells you that your spacecraft crashed so be it
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ I prefer my crafts not to exist too long to reduce load times, 90 days is enough
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ in unrelated news, that preteggst should soon stop eggsisting
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<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Preteggst?
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Pretext, I assume... but question still stands
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ Presumably some progress on storing uncomputed trajectories.
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ That would be splendid news!
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<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ i read that part of the wiki but now im having the issue where the time between the principia calculated ignition and cutoff is 2.6 seconds which is no where near the time needed to complete the 3km/s burn
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ are the correct engines active, and did you stage after creating the flight plan
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ switch to active engine mode
<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ i think i mightve staged after the flight plan
<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ ill try again staging before
<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ thanks
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ well then you need to rebase
<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ i just reverted
<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ oh well
<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ thats fixed it thanks
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ @Al2Me6 @Butcher @Damien @lpg thoughts on this design?
<queqiao->
⟨rocketman⟩ unsolicited opinion: I haven't used principia all that much but having used the plotting selection interface a little this looks really great! Very convenient and easy to read and use
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Though, do we need to have an inactive checkbox for moon-less planets? What about just an empty space?
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Also, might be a HiDPI thing but those checkboxes/dropdown selectors are _huge_
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ an empty space would work, yes
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah those +/- buttons look oddly big next to the Centre/Surface/Orbit ones
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ not sure why
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Looks good
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ > The plane of its orbit around orbit around Earth is horizontal
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Huh
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Duplicate words, I assume?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ oops yes
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ On second thought, two comments:
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ 1) It's a little unclear what the blurb is for, though not sure if there's a clear/easy fix
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ 2) The activated state of the button is not very distinct... perhaps the text could be bolded/colored?
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ On second thought, two comments:
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ 1) To a new user, it might be a little unclear what the blurb is for, though not sure if there's a clear/easy fix
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ 2) The activated state of the button is not very distinct... perhaps the text could be bolded/colored? (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Or grey out unselected buttons slightlt
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Or grey out unselected buttons slightly (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah I was wondering about 2
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ The text I mean
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Maybe taking the Kerbalism approach could de-clutter it a bit? No button frames, active green and inactive gray
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ re. 1, good point, maybe prefix it with [name of the frame:]
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yeah that's what I was thinking too, didn't say it because it's a little redundant with the title bar
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah but then we are back to remembering which column is what
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ I mean color the text of the button
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ah
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I think given that we go with the default-unity style it would be jarring/unintuitive to go for something flat
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ but some colour on activation could make things clearer
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ That's fair... I just find the Unity style distasteful 😛
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah the redundancy with the title bar might be weird; further research is needed, or something along those lines :-p
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ And also display the current frame somewhere (as in ECI, ECEF). Like in the blurb
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah it is in the title bar, but if Damien did not spot it I guess this tells us it is not visible :-p
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Comment re. new-style frame names: I guess it's more proper, but for people without an orbital mechanics background (_i.e._, me and probably most players) it might be more difficult to parse than a descriptive name as with before.
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Yeah I saw target earth orbit but we've gotten used to ECI, MCMF etc
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Although I suppose we'd get used to it
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I am bundling that with a little bit of renaming, so X-Centred Y-Aligned becomes X[-Centred] Y Orbit, XYO
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Ah
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ Fair enough
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and the target frame accordingly, Target Y orbit, they are really the same thing)
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Mind pointing me to some resources explaining those names?