egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao->
⟨§κyℓαr ♀⟩ someday we can only hope the interface can change for something anyone can enjoy in the modern world; something foss.
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ I like it! That's a very neat implementation 🙂
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ (Though it annoys me that the descenders are cut off slightly)
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⟨egg⟩ yes IMGUI is a pain (especially with our mechanism to make it scale with the UI scale setting)
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⟨egg⟩ (I can probably find a way to get the descenders back though, I think I have done that already)
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⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ How difficult would it be to make the text size for the GUI adjustable like KOS does?
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⟨Standecco⟩ The egg sleep need not
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⟨Standecco⟩ Really like it, overall the page is an enormous improvement now
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⟨Standecco⟩ Really like it, overall the new page is an enormous improvement (edited)
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⟨Standecco⟩ Would you prefer a more convenientional tooltip, i.e. a separate rect following the mouse position? I think we have a small snippet of code that does that with IMGUI
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⟨egg⟩ Not sure but I do wonder how one goes about that
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⟨egg⟩ The text size follows the UI scale setting already (that took quite a lot of work).
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⟨Standecco⟩ Courtesy of agathorn:
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⟨Standecco⟩ ```
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⟨Standecco⟩ var mousePos = Input.mousePosition;
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Probably still less mad than the unholy code I wrote to make the RF tooltip resize based on text… so might also be interested in stealing.
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Looks neat, but an argument against it: It’s annoying for users who don’t need it to have that thing plastered on screen _over other UI elements_ all the time. I liked the ‘subtitle text’ because it’s there when you need it, but not intrusive.
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⟨Standecco⟩ maybe it should appear after half a second of hovering (or any length of time)
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⟨Standecco⟩ maybe it should appear after half a second of hovering (or any length of time)? (edited)
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⟨egg⟩ that would be feasible
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⟨Standecco⟩ not too much otherwise it gets impossible to discover that it's there in the first place, especially since tooltips aren't _too_ common in ksp
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3086: Add support for tooltips popping up near the pointer - https://git.io/JR467
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3086: Add support for tooltips popping up near the pointer - https://git.io/JR467
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Heh I guess I should've read a bit more... that's still enough to get rid of the typographic abomination I wrote in RF
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Heh I guess I should've read a bit more... that's enough to get rid of the typographic abomination I wrote in RF (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ It sounds like ECEF and ECI are 地心地固坐 and 地心惯性坐 respectively? The existing terminology for reference frames is all wrong in Chinese, I had not looked at it closely
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ From a cursory search, yes, but you seem to have split a phrase in half... it's 地心地固|坐标|系 (literal translation of ECEF | coordinate | system)
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⟨egg⟩ ah yes, it helps to actually speak the language :D
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ This works nicely for the planets, with the moons I am not sure how to go about it 木卫一心木卫一固 seems a bit odd
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ also there is the question of stock, where the planet names remain in Latin; should it be K心K固?
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⟨egg⟩ also, why do I not have a zh RSS install
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ That _is_ odd.
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ is there a guide anywhere for getting to the moon in rss with principia from launch
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ ive read the ones on the wiki about doing it from orbit in stock but getting a reasonable inclination is whats causing me trouble
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ Make sure to launch from a launchsite with lower inclination than the moon if you want to avoid the hazzle of timing your launch
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ im in a rp1 game and already have sort of committed to using cape
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⟨egg⟩ bad idea
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ ye ive learned haha
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⟨egg⟩ I recommend learning Principia without packaging all the difficulties of RP-1 and a high launch site and… together
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⟨egg⟩ do some sandbox flights to get a feeling for things
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ ive done a few from simulating with kct in a given orbit with just a transfer stage
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ just to get a feel for the maneuvers
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ which i think i understand a bit now
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ its just the launch
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⟨egg⟩ Use @Butcher’s script, move south, or be faced with the fact that you picked one of the hardest tasks in the game :-p
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ @egg Saw this while searching articles (someone's random blog):
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ > *Origin of the reference frame is the center of the Earth, the x and z axes are in the plane of the orbit, the y axis is perpendicular to the orbital plane, the x axis points towards the ascending node*
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ This is actually a thing? Can't find any English references
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ ok haha ill try
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⟨egg⟩ That is ECI, essentially (depending on how you define « the ascending node », if you say « mean equinox of J2000 » that’s what the ICRS is)
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⟨Damien⟩ @egg clearly the kerbalism team knows how to make a good UI. Could their input be helpful in principia's?
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⟨egg⟩ @Sir Mortimer did provide some input, and some of it was acted upon; but there is also the aspect of knowing what direction it should be nudged in (see my focus common frames being accessible in one click, not two)
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⟨Damien⟩ Fair enough. I was referring mainly to standecco's comment on the kerbalism discord about moving away from IMGUI
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⟨egg⟩ that is definitely interesting and I will watch how that goes
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⟨Standecco⟩ a nice common UI framework would be really nice
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⟨egg⟩ I’m told with a comma it reads OK, and conversely if compactness is desired—which it is where ICIF would go—something like 木一心木一固 (or even 木1心木1固 🤢) could
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ > 木1心木1固
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yeah that's unholy
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⟨egg⟩ 木一 seems attested though
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yes, that's fine -- it's the Arabic numeral that's unholy
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⟨egg⟩ yup
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⟨egg⟩ (and it’s probably going to have to be K心K固 on Kerbin but *shrug*)
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Have you found anything for XCYO?
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⟨egg⟩ it’s barely a thing in English, so I expect creativity will be requried
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⟨egg⟩ 地心太阳轨道 would be the obvious answer
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⟨egg⟩ (XCYO could be called XYO, "Jupiter-Sun-Orbit" is a thing in some Juno documentation) (edited)
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⟨moar ssto⟩ Do you mean the orbit of earth around(in the sense of reference frame origin) the sun?
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⟨egg⟩ it’s the reference frame currently called ECSA
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⟨egg⟩ it’s based on the orbit of the Earth around the Sun, and rotates with it, yes
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⟨egg⟩ it’s the reference frame currently called ECSA (the orange one) (edited)
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⟨moar ssto⟩ Oh， I would say 地心向日
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ But we’re trying to get away from translating ECSA
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⟨egg⟩ yeah that is the current name, but it is a bad name
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⟨moar ssto⟩ I think the other two you proposed can be misleading
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⟨egg⟩ the intent is to switch to Earth-Centred Sun orbit (or geocentric solar ecliptic, or something), which conveys the intent better (the reference frame used for operations that have something to do with the orbit of the Earth around the Sun)
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ How would ‘body-centered solar ecliptic’ generalize to moons?
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⟨egg⟩ solar ecliptic is a fancy word for orbit of the Earth around the Sun
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ so it generalizes to (parent) orbit
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⟨egg⟩ OK, cursory googling of that earthy term gives us 地心太阳--黄道坐标系(Geocentric Solar Ecliptic system,简称GSE).
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⟨moar ssto⟩ I think no matter in chinese or english, you should express some directionality
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ ~~Ground Service Equipment~~ 🤣
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⟨egg⟩ No, I should lean towards established conventions in astrodynamics
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⟨egg⟩ the point is to teach people the real vocabulary that they use for real spacecraft
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⟨egg⟩ not come up with our own opinions on what that should be
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⟨egg⟩ Principia: every day is a school day :-p
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⟨moar ssto⟩ I see
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⟨egg⟩ (see also the move away from 节点 and towards 轨道机动, in the same spirit)
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⟨moar ssto⟩ then the only thing we can do is directly use the name used in chinese papers
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⟨egg⟩ yup
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⟨egg⟩ CNKI to the rescue! :D
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⟨egg⟩ 一颗在论文海中的蛋
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Is there a libgen equivalent?
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⟨moar ssto⟩ do you have a builtin tutorial?
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⟨egg⟩ CNKI is a sort of DOI-and-arxiv equivalent aiui, and definitely more above-the-table than libgen/sci-hub :-p
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⟨egg⟩ No, but with this overhaul of the UI I am introducing tooltips, which will say what the reference frames are for
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yep but I don’t want to pay
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yep but I don’t want to pay for papers (edited)
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⟨egg⟩ given how rare phrases such as "Martian Solar Ecliptic" are, I am pretty sure we are going to have to go into the land of unattested phrases to extrapolate to other planets
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⟨moar ssto⟩ I guess we should also assume maximal extent of extrapolation given that we might encounter all sorts of planets packs, sometimes even without good analogies in terms of orbit hierarchy
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⟨moar ssto⟩ like moonmoons or circumbinaries
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ is there a way to have mechjeb execute principia flight plans or no?
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ There is a 'Execute next Principia node' button, but it doesn't take engine start up time into consideration
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ is it close enough or useless
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ Depends on the engine, and manoeuvre
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ aj 10 for tli
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ and yes im still trying to get to the moon XD
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ The only way to know for certain is to try it yourself, the main problem is that the burn 'starts' later than it should, but still ends at the same time as if the thrust was 100% from the start
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ where is the option ill test it out
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ In the MJ manoeuvre planner
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ In the MJ manoeuvre planner (I think) (edited)
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ it also might be behind a tech i havent got
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ You need to enable 'show node on navball' in the Principia planner
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ ah ok
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ thanks
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⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Wait you can use mechjeb for interplanetary transfers with principia?
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⟨Stonesmile⟩ Only effectively with engines with 0 ignition delay
<raptop>
when you consider time between launching a bomb and it getting into detonation position, even Orion type spacecraft have an ignition delay o_O
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⟨chazzvader⟩ what about RCS? those would have 0 delay, right?
<raptop>
Probably close enough
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<queqiao->
⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ it overshot massivley 😦
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ im going add another stage with way more delta v and a 1kn thruster and just correct it a 100 times
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ never been so happy to spend 3 hours crashing two things together 🙂
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⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Why no fly-by first?
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⟨Al2Me6⟩ Impact completes 'flyby' for some reason that I can't understand (not the technical reason, the logical reason)
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⟨§κyℓαr ♀⟩ Well, its half a fly by 🤷♀️
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⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ But you can't get all of the science from it without strong comms and/or a relay
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⟨DRVeyl⟩ The logical reason is also simple. But the intent of "fly-by" is not "get visibility of the far-side of this tidally-locked body" ... it's far simpler. "Try to hit it, and it's okay if you miss."
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⟨UnboundedBirch8⟩ the fly by contract required me to return science from the moon which i didnt have good enough attennas for but smacking into the moon basically dead on arrival gave me enough money and science to unlock the antennas and send a fly by mission after