01:57 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Minor comment: maybe too much vertical spacing between the selectors and the description?

01:57 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/874471533148528650/unknown.png

07:00 <queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ No sink for the cat, she's ready to help remedy that.

07:00 <queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/874547681563918356/IMG_20210810_075756.jpg

08:54 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ The description can be longer if you select MCSO, and changing height (thus changing button positions) seems like a bad idea

09:28 <queqiao-> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ Can you change the orbit of planets using engines with principia? (assuming you had enough thrust)

09:29 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ no, and I am not sure why that question keeps coming up

09:35 <queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ It's a logical question to someone new to principia. If bodies can affect crafts and other bodies, can crafts affect bodies.

09:36 <queqiao-> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ Had someone ask, and I've never thought about it myself

09:59 <queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ The engines would have to be massive, as well as the amount of fuel. So even if it was possible, the result would be rather uninteresting.

10:25 <queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G01NoaTM46o&t=13s

10:26 <queqiao-> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ I get that its practically impossible without cheating engines to have insanely high thrust

10:26 <queqiao-> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ I just wasn't sure if the mod actually supported it in the first place

10:27 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it would make things more computationally tricky (here we can compute the planets independently far ahead using a larger time step and use that to compute vessels), and since it is pointless there is no point

10:34 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ OK so, starting with an easier frame; 地心惯性 is clearly the correct translation for ECI, 月心惯性 and 火心惯性 are well-attested for two of the MCIs. A Google search for 木心惯性 finds nothing relevant, and the phrase does not appear either in CNKI; on the other hand it is the obvious extrapolation here so this is probably just a dearth of technical literature on Jovian operations i

10:35 <queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ (Yay for lower computational complexity 🥳)

10:55 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Now, how do we generalize this to moons

11:02 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I have asked on QQ, let’s see what 给蛋哥点建议 they come up with :-p

11:13 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ They suggest 木卫四地面[系], which makes sense if there is no established technical term

11:13 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it looks like it will have to be 木卫四心惯性 we have to stay with though

11:13 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it looks like it will have to be 木卫四心惯性 though (edited)

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Al2Me6 OK so

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ 地心惯性, 地心地固, 地心太阳黄道,

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ 木卫四心惯性, 木卫四地面, 木卫四心木轨道 seem viable for the navball (where ECI, ECEF, GSE, CCI, CCCF, CJO would go in English) but probably a bit big for the reference frame selector. Should the columns just be bigger in zh or should I try some unholy cleverness like

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ```

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ 地球 [心惯性] [地面] [心太阳黄道]

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ⫶

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ 木卫四 [心惯性] [地面] [心木轨道]

11:31 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ```

11:54 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ That’s awkward… but then, so is repeating ex. ‘木卫四’ three times in a row?

11:55 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah; the repetition might be the least awkward option though

11:56 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ time for wide buttons I guess

13:38 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ hm, thinking about French I don’t think we have acronyms for reference frames so I wonder how viable that reference-frame-name-on-the-button UI really is

13:46 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Al2Me6 maybe I could just have 惯性系/地面系/轨道系 on the buttons? Obviously that runs into the issues that all the buttons in the same column say the same thing, it means there is no need to fit 木卫四心木轨道 or 地心太阳黄道 or some unholy abbreviation of *Galiléen centré sur Vénus*

13:46 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ That’s what I was thinking , yeah

13:47 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Since if we can’t fit the specialized name may as well go back to the generic names

13:47 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Also, Discord really doesn’t like combining diacritics lol, the font is messed up

13:47 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ then obviously this brings back the question of whether that should just be the case for English too, Inertial Frame/Surface Frame/Orbital Frame might be more comprehensible to novice players

13:47 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah I patched the CSS on my end because I was getting tired of that :-p

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ “Orbital Frame” _is_ kind of confusing though… orbital with respect to what?

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ```css

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ [class^=message]{

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ font-family: Noto Sans, Cambria Math, Tangut Yinchuan, BabelStone Han, Noto Sans Egyptian Hieroglyphs, Nabuninuaihsus

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ }

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ [class^=channelTextArea]{

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ }

13:48 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ```

13:53 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ well, it is a confusing frame to describe succintly, it’s not like « geocentric solar ecliptic » is particularly enlightening

13:58 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Fair enough.

13:59 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ ~~Which is why I liked XCYA~~

14:00 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it’s underdetermined though, you have X-centred, fixing the solar direction that don’t use the orbital plane (they use the projection of the rotational pole or of the magnetic pole instead)

14:01 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it’s underdetermined though, you have reference frames that are X-centred, fixing the solar direction that don’t use the orbital plane (they use the projection of the rotational pole or of the magnetic pole instead) (edited)

14:06 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ note that the target frame is the exact same frame, and that one had the even more obscure name LVLH (which is also quite bad at describing anything about the reference frame)

14:15 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ More precisely, my concern is that stock calls the inertial frame 'orbit'.

14:32 <queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ @Al2Me6 are you able to send me the complied files for me to test?

14:32 <queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ saves me having to spend time building it myself\

14:32 <queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ saves me having to spend time building it myself (edited)

14:32 <queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ TIL you use Principia. Check dms

14:33 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ then again, orbital and orbit are different words :-p

14:36 <queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ Welcome to "Top Ten Things KSP doesn't teach correctly"

14:59 <raptop> Number 1 being people writing $I_{sp}$ like it's an acronym?

15:09 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ FWIW I am finding Système géocentrique solaire écliptique for GSE in French

15:14 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ FWIW I am finding *système géocentrique solaire écliptique* for GSE in French (edited)

15:26 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ OK so in English where we have acronyms we use those, and in other languages we say Inertial/Surface/Orbital (and KSP using « orbit » in a way that is inconsistent with us need not concern us, we use « normal » differently already…)

16:06 <queqiao-> ⟨U​nboundedBirch8⟩ how do i attempt at an interplanetary mission with principia

16:07 <queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ first, you build a rocket

16:07 <queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Then you read this page; https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/A-guide-to-performing-an-interplanetary-flyby-and-return-with-Principia

16:08 <queqiao-> ⟨U​nboundedBirch8⟩ does this guide still apply with the inclination and stuff in rss

16:08 <queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Read step 3

16:09 <queqiao-> ⟨U​nboundedBirch8⟩ and do the kerbal alarm clock transfer windows work or no?

16:10 <queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Trasfer Window Planner gives a decent approximation for the launch time, but the manoeuvre it gives is wrong

16:10 <queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Transfer Window Planner gives a decent approximation for the launch time, but the manoeuvre it gives is wrong (edited)

16:10 <queqiao-> ⟨U​nboundedBirch8⟩ ok thanks

16:11 <queqiao-> ⟨U​nboundedBirch8⟩ time to bang my head into a wall for the next three hours until i reach venus 🙂

16:46 <queqiao-> ⟨n​arukaze⟩ I just read something in the forum thread for Extraplanetary Launchpads where someone said they were playing it with Principia and ran into some issues. Has anyone else done that and experienced any problems?

16:47 <queqiao-> ⟨n​arukaze⟩ (I'm using EL in my current Principia game and I'm trying to decide if I should ditch it, since I haven't used any of the stuff from it yet)

21:08 <queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Kerbal alarm clock window is fine

21:08 <queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Just launch into orbit at that window and you will easily get to Venus with just a prograde maneuver

21:38 <_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #3088: Merge - https://git.io/JRKeb

21:41 <_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 

21:41 <_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5076/

22:11 <_whitenotifier> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5076/

23:53 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Found a thesis in German with a section

23:53 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ > **Geocentric Solar Ecliptic (GSE)**

23:53 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ > Eines der sehr häufig in der Beschreibung von Orbits und Geometrien verwendeten Koordinatensysteme ist das GSE-Koordinatensystem.

23:54 <queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ CC @Sir Mortimer: « german »