egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Noooo you switched 1 and 2
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ re. background, ECI and ECEF retain their names, they are pretty standard; ECSA was a weird thing I had invented and conveys the intent less than "Orbit"
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Al2Me6 @Damien now flashier
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (too much vertical space above the grid, I know)
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ I still think the text on unselected buttons should be darker. Just to stop your eyeballs being melted by an assault of 'Centre Surface Orbit. Your eyes should be drawn to the blurb, the body list and the currently selected button
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ I still think the text on unselected buttons should be darker. Just to stop your eyeballs being melted by an assault of 'Centre Surface Orbit'. Your eyes should be drawn to the blurb, the body list and the currently selected button (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Then you wouldn't need the green
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Maybe it wouldn't look right but without seeing it I'm not sure
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Darker text makes sense, but the green is probably still nice to clearly see which one was picked
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (also darker text would be more readable against the green :-p)
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ What about darker text for unselected and green text for selected, like cockpit buttons
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ As if the text is part of the button and a light illuminates it when enabled
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Green or white that's basically what I'm picturing
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ that was what I had in mind, except with printed buttons that get backlit, thus the bulk of the button changing colour
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ like this
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Yeah whatever works. I think the green is a bit jarring with the rest of the window being basic unity though
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Maybe dark text for disabled, white text with white button outline for enabled
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (that was a DCS screenshot rather than a KSP one, but you get the idea :-p)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Damien more subdued text, more subdued green
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Yeah that's better. The only thing I'd change is make the selected button have the original white. Its a minor nitpick though
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Yeah that's better. The only thing I'd change is make the selected button have the original white text. Its a minor nitpick though (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I'd place some text above the column of Centre Surface Orbit that conveys to a new player that you're selecting what is fixed
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I'd place some text above the column of Centre Surface Orbit that conveys to a new player that you're selecting what should be fixed (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the orbit isn’t really fixed, that doesn’t mean much
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it’s more « what is the reference frame about »
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ « surface » fixes the entire planet, not just its surface
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ but it’s the frame for when you care about the surface
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Well, all the more reasons to have some explanation
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I mean, I can have walls of text but we are just coming from that :-p
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Can't imagine a way to fix the surface without fixing the entire body
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ of course
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ but you do fix the entire body ; « surface » is about intent
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ « orbit » is fuzzy, but explaining intent concisely has to be fuzzy
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Not a wall of text, just a sentence
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ That area is uncluttered anyway, so something is better than nothing
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ there is no room for three sentences here
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ that area is uncluttered for this particular selection, but it’s not free
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ « a reference frame suitable for an overview of transfer trajectories as well as sun-synchronous orbits in the case of bodies orbiting the Sun » is documentation, not UI text. The existing UI precisely has this problem of having four giant blurbs
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] sfachina starred Principia - https://git.io/JRn5l
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (and that’s just off the top of my head, there are probably other uses for the « Orbit » frame)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I'm saying that as a new user I have absolutely zero idea of what the buttons do; there's a description of the currently selected RF, but otherwise I don't know what's the intent behind any button
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ The window has a title
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ and you opened that window by clicking a button with that title on it
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Yes, and then it has a list of bodies and some cryptic buttons
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ so you are here to select a reference frames
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ well, the new KSP player has no idea what apoapsis means either
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ but the UI of, e.g., MJ’s orbit info would be very obnoxious if it had (greatest altitude attained along the orbit)
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ that is a bit more intuitive than the wall of options principia throws at you. i just started by spending a while playing around with them
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ anyway, new UI
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ anyway, brighter text (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ In terms of design I say that's good. In terms of information I'll leave that to others to discuss
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah, a tutorial or something would help ; but no amount of verbiage can impart intuition
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ You're talking about describing the concept of an apoapsis; I'm talking about writing the intent of the buttons, e.g. "center of the RF" above the list of bodies and "orientation of the RF" above the column of buttons
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the intent of the button is not what you say it is
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it is just « select a reference frame »
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the word is not the thing centred
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ maybe point out the most useful ones and let people experiment with what the others do?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the word is not the thing fixed
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the word is just a word that evokes the frame
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ nothing else, nothing more
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I never implied that it was; but the buttons on the left select the center of the RF, and the buttons on the right select how it is oriented
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ no they don’t
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ all the buttons select a single reference frame
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ press Earth-Orbit, you switch to ECSO; Earth-Centre, ECI; Earth-Surface, ECEF
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I could of course have those acronyms on the buttons; the intent of having actual words rather than MCMF letter salad was precisely to give a hint for players unfamiliar that this is the relevant reference frame for the Surface
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ In terms of the buttons relative to the current naming scheme, Earth Centre would be ECI, Surface would be ECEF. That is easy to get. Orbit is a new term for current users and isn't automatically assumed to be ECSA or whatever
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ECSA is a term that does not exist
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ In terms of the buttons relative to the current naming scheme, Earth Centre would be ECI, Surface would be ECEF. That is easy to get. Orbit is a new term for current users and isn't automatically assumed to be ECSO or whatever (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Already fixed
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ it was invented by a terrible egg and should be forgotten
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Ok I see what you mean now
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ The buttons have all exactly the same text though
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ The only thing that distinguishes them is what the text on the left says
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ You know ECSO, and that is very nice; but most people don’t and have no idea what it is about
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ they look at it once, see that it is weird, and never go back to it
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ « Orbit » says what it is about, which « jumble of letters » doesn’t
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ see for instance Zeusbeer the :caveman:
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ The button labels are fine. What is not immediately intuitive is that the left part of any row indicates the center of the RF, and the 3 buttons of any row are different only in orientation
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ That is a good point; perhaps a heading Centre: above the tree
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (and then just a generic noncommital Frame: on the right)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I doubt anyone could ever be confused by 2 labels such as those
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I propose "centre" and "orientation "
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ In the end, you read the table from left to right
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ orientation is too specific
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (and orientation: centre is strange)
<queqiao-> ⟨D​RVeyl⟩ Would it be better to make a single row of radial buttons to select Center, Surface, or Orbit as a mode, and then the only thing you click is the target planet or vessel? Clicking applies the frame specified by the selected mode (state of the radial buttons) and target (button)?
<queqiao-> ⟨D​RVeyl⟩ That frees all the space on the right hand side
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ no, that like the current mechanism in that it means you can need two clicks to switch between two frames you care about
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (e.g. Moon-Centred Earth Orbit and ECI (or ECEF) when planning your TLI or return)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Well maybe there's a better name than "center" for that RF? But you're right, in any case
<queqiao-> ⟨D​RVeyl⟩ Lazy single-clickers. Ok.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I mean, I want to incentivize the user to switch reference frames all the time
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ behold the noodles in multiple ways at all times
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I could go for Inertial/Surface/Orbit (the word Inertial irks me a bit because the bodies are accelerated on scales you care about but it’s right there in ECI so I guess it is an admissible abuse of notation)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ non-rotating is verbose
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Could an icon be more descriptive?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ no, especially to new players
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ They're a bit small
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (if I just want descriptive ECI/ECEF/ECSO will fit on the buttons; I also want to convey some kind of sense that these map to those concepts)
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Calling the left-hand-side centre, while true, somewhat obscure that intent ; the « Orbit » button in the « Earth » column is meant to mean « the reference frame that is about the Orbit of the Earth »
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (which, yes, happens to be centred on the Earth and oriented by its orbit, but that’s definitional, it doesn’t convey intent)
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<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ Centre/Frame headers seem like a decent starting point and any further tweaks can come from user feedback
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ The problem with us is that we're the experienced users and don't know what new users don't know
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ They might just click buttons and get an intuitive feel like we did, supplemented by the odd question
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ They might just click buttons and get an intuitive feel like we did, supplemented by the odd question (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I'm a relatively new user, and had no idea the buttons were meant to convey intent
<queqiao-> ⟨D​amien⟩ They might just click buttons and get an intuitive feel like we did, supplemented by the odd question (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨s​cimas⟩ That still feels like a lot of vertical space. One suggestion to reduce it: Always show the current body (either in the stock sense or orbit analyzer magic), its immediate descendants and its parent in the window. And have a drop down that allows you to "pin" another celestial (just the celestial or their family as described before) on the window.
<queqiao-> ⟨s​cimas⟩ Example:
<queqiao-> ⟨s​cimas⟩ If Earth is the current body this would show Sun, Earth, Moon and a drop down. If I pin Mars from the drop down, it would also show Mars, Phobos and Deimos. (Ideally not showing Sun twice would be handled)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah pinning bodies is an idea I did mention earlier, but a future iteration
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ OK here is another idea. Buttons with the same abbreviation that is shown in the navball (ECEF/ECI/ECSO) etc., and headings above those buttons briefly saying what the frame is for: [unsure, ECI is very generalist; Orbit? Kepler?], Surface, Transfer/Rendez-vous
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (Orbit is too restrictive because you might want to look at a hyperbola like that)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Headings, as in an expansion of the blurb?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ But agree re putting the frame abbreviation in the buttons.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ You can use tooltips, those seem like the best place to put intent into
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ Formal abbreviations on the buttons, and a tooltip explaining what you can use the frame for
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ nah, as in single-word descriptions of purposes
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Conics, Surface, Flyby/rendez-vous
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Huh, ok. My first instinct is “that’s a little weird” but might be some https://xkcd.com/1172/ involved there.
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] graptis commented on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRcwh
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] ThisisShoo commented on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRco4
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] graptis commented on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRciK
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] graptis edited a comment on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRciK
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] graptis commented on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRcXk
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] ThisisShoo commented on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRcX9
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] ThisisShoo closed issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JBcGt
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] graptis commented on issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JRcMn
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] ThisisShoo reopened issue #3077: Pricipia - Extraterrestrial Launchpads Intolerance? - https://git.io/JBcGt
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ @egg Is there a download for Grothendieck yet?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ not yet, will probably post that tomorrow morning
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Ah ok, went looking because I saw the change log.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​paceman Spiff⟩ I have some donations
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Can you add me on the pings too, I care 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Also will it ever become a dropdown menu, the amount of buttons is daunting
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ No. I do not want a dropdown menu, dropdown menus are bad. This was discussed here initially https://discord.com/channels/319857228905447436/480397772248580098/872475278255992832 and brought up again by Dr. Veyl today.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I should note that while you might care, you do not use the XCYO reference frame, which means that your usage pattern is not the one for which I want to optimize; to the contrary I want to make people use all of these frames fluently.
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I understand completely, I personally didn't mind the old way, I guess now we will have a cockpit of buttons
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I am trying to add some sort of pinning functionality as scimas suggested though
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I really like that UI suggestion that was on github somewhere
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Please read the link Egg posted again...
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ please read the message I just linked, it addresses why I think it is a bad idea
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Pinning, CC @scimas, also experimenting with green text instead of green background, which was one of @Damien’s suggestions
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Looks superior
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ So what does this do if not pinned?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ If not pinned things behave as they did, and are hidden by the ± buttons (and now the Sun has one, to hide everything but itself). Pinned bodies are shown even if the tree is collapsed (along with their ancestors up to the Sun)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Will there be an option between complex names and 'centre' , 'surface', 'orbit'
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I really prefer the 'centre', 'surface, 'orbit' way, as :caveman:
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Also I hate capital letters
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Ah, that's pretty neat.
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Also I hate capital letters, they look hideous, especially in a cockpit layout (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ But... maybe it's not the most discoverable UI? I didn't realize clicking "+" on the Sun would reveal more bodies when there are already bodies, for example.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ But... maybe it's not the most discoverable UI? I didn't realize clicking "+" on the Sun would reveal more bodies when there are already bodies listed, for example. (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the screenshot is a bit artificial though; I pinned Titan and Mars, which is a weird combination
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Wait there are more options? I also did not know that
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Wait there are more options after pressing +? I also did not know that (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Wait there are more options after pressing + on sun? I also did not know that (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ if you just have
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ```
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ + Sun
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ - Earth
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Moon
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ```
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ It should be somewhat clear that there are more bodies somewhere
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ That's fair.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I assume the parent body (in the stock sense, i.e. inside SOI of) would always be pinned?
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ :caveman: Where Mars
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ 😂
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ :caveman: Where Mars 😂 (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ The selector will start up with the row of the selected frame pinned; for the plotting frame that means roughly that (and the home body in the tracking station), for the manœuvre frame that means the row with whatever the frame was as loaded from the saved flight plan
<raptop> Make sure not to be fooled by Scorpion's Heart (aka: Fool's Mars)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Might it be helpful to persist pins with the craft? Or is that already implemented?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ should be relatively straightforward to add a toggle between the 2 views?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ a toggle between what?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ dropdown view, and "wall of buttons" view
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Sounds like a lot of complexity
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ although maybe this pinning feature makes it obsolete
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yes I definitely want to maintain two independent versions of the UI and then support users who are using two completely different UIs
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ isn't it IMGUI?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I can understand the reasons for not doing it, but "too hard to implement" shouldn't be among them
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ too much work to maintain is
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I do see that as a valid reason
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Also it probably requires a lot of pedestrian programming, egg is not into that
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I've proposed it exactly because I know it wouldn't be hard at all. But egg's reasons for not implementing it are perfectly valid
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I usually am not used to thinking that far ahead 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Also you are either underestimating the amount of work that actually implementing the thing is, or the amount of free time I have. This one has already eaten quite a bit of time.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (suggesting that things are easy is generally a good way to attract the wrath of the egg  :-p)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Also you are either underestimating the amount of work that actually implementing the thing is, or overestimating the amount of free time I have. This one has already eaten quite a bit of time. (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Beyond implementation difficulty, I'm really not seeing a lot of difference between 'dropdown' and 'partially collapsible list'
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I never underestimate the amount of time it takes, making GUIs is pain
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Will there be a vote on the gui selected indicator?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ No democracy, only the tyranny of the egg
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ okay
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ That sounds like the war in Gulliver's Travels
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ indeed, that's by far the largest reason - I recognize now that it's totally not needed, it was just a fluke (thinking that it could maybe lessen the complaints of people that hate change)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ XKCD: workflow is unavoidable.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ I was mostly thinking that you could simply keep the old GUI, and implement the new one behind a toggle
<raptop> situation: n+1 competing standards
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Wrath of egg is coming
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yes but the solution is obvious, it is deliberateness: if it breaks your workflow, that is the whole point
* queqiao- ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Eyes Zeusbeer
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ but this was coming from me after finishing my own IMGUI stuff, which I built in such a way that would easily allow to do such a thing (IMGUI itself is well suited for it); maybe yours isn't, in that case I am sorry for invoking the wrath of the egg
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ behind the deceptively simple UI you have quite a lot of nasty edge cases to handle, so a double UI would really be a pain; you have questions such as « what happens when the target crashes » ? « what do we switch to when you go from Target to Orbit mode on the navball ? » etc.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ that is tricky; maybe at some point but for now it will be like the flight plan, everything collapsed when you load
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ examples of what the UI might look like before playing with the tree, when loading a craft or a flight plan
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ That's actually pretty good... definitely a vast improvement over the current one 😺
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah the current one is… better than its predecessor, but quite terrible
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ its predecessor was https://i.imgur.com/ojFdRgX.png
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Mun-Kerbin would render things in the barycentric rotating frame, Kerbin-Kerbin in the Kerbin-centred nonrotating frame :-p
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ definitely hadn't thought about those (although I _did_ think about planes this time - unfortunately it wasn't useful in any way)
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<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ The pinning is enough to satisfy me, if I think I know what it does
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Al2Me6 obviously I will need translations; in that optick: are you a native speaker of zh, and if so, of zh-TW or zh-CN?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (or zh-HK, or zh-SG, …)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Yes; zh-CN (but I understand traditional Chinese)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Though I am woefully unfamiliar with technical terms
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ interestingly the Chinese community on QQ also has that problem (I had to fight against the « manœuvre *node* » terminology quite a bit, which KSP translates to 节点 which is an abomination in that context, because most of them had never heard the actual technical term, 轨道机动)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (aiui that 机动 is a linguistic abomination and a borrowing from Japanese, but it *is* the zh-CN technical term)
<bees> it is only an abomination until people start to use it seriously
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Yeah I'm willing to believe that... it is very _odd_.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Excerpt from a relevant discussion with a bilingual zh(-TW) and en speaker who helped me with the first round of translation (and also who does linguistics so has a bit of a broader perspective)
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ What languages are in the plans atm? Just Chinese?
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ What languages are in the plans atm? Just Chinese and English? (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Those are the only two at this time, if someone wants to contribute translations they can do so
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I might add a French translation someday
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ surely you mean it has a 内味儿 :-p
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ fwiw I would translate "没内味儿“ as "doesn't have that ring to it"
* raptop feels like having French and Russian translations would be oddly approparite
<raptop> *appropriate
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Interestingly Hant 機動 (whence Hans 机动) is manœuvre in Japanese in the military sense, but orbital manœuvre is 軌道マヌーバ where マヌーバ =*manūba* :-p
<raptop> Obviously you choose the word depending on if you're working with a civilian or military satellite
<raptop> I, uh, *think* I'm joking
<queqiao-> ⟨N​athanKell (he/him)⟩ @egg is there a reasonably-foolproof way to tell (in C#) if an install has Principia running? Just check for your DLL's presence in AssemblyLoader?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @NathanKell ask @XKdiver, I think MJ does that
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (what for, if I may ask?)
<queqiao-> ⟨s​iimav⟩ RP0KCT does as well
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the fact that the word principia is nowhere to be found in name of the detected assembly is a bit unfortunate :-p
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ then again we are probably the only ones to need an adapter or refer to a subset of things as « the KSP plugin »
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ « ah yes, that weird thing sticking out of the astronomy codebase, nevermind it »
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ KSP is just an interface to Principia.