NathanKell changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator" with a rocket-flying minigame
<wb99999999_>
I bet at that point MANY thought chemicals are just a temporary measure
<wb99999999_>
just like in the 60s many thought expendable rockets are only for now
<wb99999999_>
well doesn't reality disappoint...
<lamont>
awang: yeah kinda, although i test with titan 2-alikes a lot and it works just fine
<awang>
What TWR do those get to?
<lamont>
but if you don’t get flat enough to start with and loft it, then it has to do a lot of work to burn down
<lamont>
the empty ones like 8 or 9 or something. short rides to orbit, i test with them a lot so i don’t have to wait 14 mins per launch
<lamont>
if you have RCS on the upper it’ll RCS trim into the proper orbit
<awang>
Because compensating for lofting high would require coasting?
<lamont>
i still have to push all my bugfixes out in a release though i think for refactoring it to countdown velocity rather than time
<awang>
(if you can't fix the pitch program)
<lamont>
i dunno
<lamont>
just don’t loft it as high, pitch over more aggressively and flatter
<lamont>
lofting a high TWR stage i think is just not efficient to begin with
<lamont>
without a proper trajectory optimizer though i’m just guessing
<wb99999999_>
I'm not following
<wb99999999_>
would someone give me a recap of what you guys are talking about?
<wb99999999_>
oops
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<wb99999999_>
awkward silence
<soundnfury>
wb99999999_: lamont is trying to run POST in his head :P
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<awang>
wb99999999_: Talking about PEG
<awang>
Mike` had a launch where PEG put the vehicle into an orbit that was quite different from the target orbit
<awang>
Talking about why
<blowfish>
something's wonky about the RCS sizing
<blowfish>
between the 1/4 and 1/10 thruster blocks
<blowfish>
the bigger ones follow thrust proportional to scale^2, but the smallest one doesn't follow that pattern
<lamont>
soundnfury: yeah, but the implementation in my head is buggy
<awang>
Speaking from a purely theoretical perspective
<awang>
Would the RP-0 tech tree spreadsheet work better as a database?
<awang>
Partially to help with those disgustingly complex formulae?
<awang>
idk what database queries are capable of though
<Pap>
awang: it very well might. It all started as an excel sheet that I was keeping personally. Those formulas were easy. Google Sheets required a complete rewrite of the formulas.
<Pap>
I don't know enough about databases to know what to do with it
* taniwha
<3 google hangouts
* UmbralRaptor
🔪 hangouts in the quasi-removal of SMS support
<taniwha>
I got to see my first daughter for the first time in over 10 years
<UmbralRaptor>
Grats
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<UmbralRaptor>
(video calls are nice for that)
<taniwha>
yeah
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<blowfish>
what's the logic behind which RCS parts unlock in which nodes?
<blowfish>
e.g the start node has some linear ports, but multiports with the same characteristics don't unlock until later
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<Pap>
Blowfish the thought was that a single nozzle port was easier to make than a multi directional port.
<awang>
Pap: Google sheets aren't compatible with Excel spreadsheets? I'm surprised
<blowfish>
Pap: ahh, makes a bit of sense
<awang>
Yeah, I barely know databases either. Just figured that something like "find parts with these characteristics" would be a good fit for a database
<blowfish>
I'm looking at the cost and entry cost numbers now though and can't seem to find any pattern
<awang>
I'm not really familiar with the spreadsheet, though, so it's quite likely that I'm missing something
<Pap>
They sorta are awang but when you change the order of data in Google Sheets, the formulas are quasi relative and quasi absolute. In other words, they are garbage.
<awang>
Database would be more difficult for other people to edit, too
<Bornholio>
databases are better for more people, assuming your have the reports and queries they need
<awang>
Pap: I'm not sure what quasi relative/absolute means for spreadsheets, but I'd guess quasi anything is bad news when it comes to computers :P
<Pap>
awang: I take the spreadsheet for granted since I built it. I spent hundreds of hours in it so I can not relate well to your difficulty, but I know what you mean from other people's spreadsheets that I have used.
<awang>
I know embarrassingly little Excel stuff for being a computer-ish guy
<Pap>
awang: yeah, the formulas change in Google Sheets, but not with expected results
<awang>
Pap: Everyone's code is readable to themselves, after all
<awang>
It's everyone else's code that sucks
<Pap>
Bornholio: that is what I thought as well, would just take someone to write the queries.
<awang>
Bornholio: Setting up reports and queries is part of the hard part
<blowfish>
Everyone's code is readable to themselves within a week or so of writing it
<awang>
Anyone here a database admin?
<blowfish>
not strictly, but I do work with databases a lot
<Bornholio>
yes, lol means nothing
<blowfish>
I don't think DBA as a job title is so common anymore
<awang>
blowfish: Are you familiar-ish with the tech tree spreadsheet?
<Bornholio>
being a dba is more common that being a DBA
<blowfish>
awang: haven't looked at it, no
<awang>
blowfish: Awww :(
<awang>
Was hoping for someone with more experience to chip in as to whether the spreadsheet would work better as a database
<blowfish>
a database by itself isn't incredibly useful
<awang>
RO: Now with SQL injection!
<blowfish>
but yes, a spreadsheet might not be the best at showing relational objects
<awang>
Pap: How do you generate the configs from Google sheets anyways?
<awang>
blowfish: What kind of database work do you do?
<blowfish>
mysql mostly
<blowfish>
a bit of postgres (really amazon redshift)
<blowfish>
dipped a toe in sql server
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<awang>
What do you do with them?
<awang>
And got any preference as to which one to use?
<blowfish>
mysql is what we use at work for the most part
<blowfish>
except for our data warehouse which uses redshift
<blowfish>
sql server just for getting data from other systems
<blowfish>
I don't have a strong mysql vs postgres opinion, sql server I would probably avoid if possible
<blowfish>
but I haven't worked with it much
<Bornholio>
cut your teeth on access or libre base if you want to just learn, toss it in garbage, then fine out which one you actually need.
<Bornholio>
find
<soundnfury>
ehh, sqlite is probably the thing to prototype this in
<soundnfury>
easier to pass the prototype around as a file before having proper access setup
<soundnfury>
but tbh this thing has a code-like access pattern, both spreadsheets and databases are the Wrong Thing
<soundnfury>
you want a declarative markup that you can version-control properly
<awang>
soundnfury: code-like access pattern?
<awang>
I agree that sticking whatever we end up with in version control would be ideal
<soundnfury>
awang: changes are mostly concurrent in time but not in "space", hence merges are easy
<soundnfury>
basically, you use version control for that case, and databases when changes are likely to conflict (so you use locking ex ante rather than merging ex post)
<soundnfury>
also, of course, databases when the changes are made by a programmatic process that needs to make its changes and know they've stuck (ACID etc.) and can't intelligently resolve merge conflicts when they do come up
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<blowfish>
hmm, anyone seen the sky disappear when you get high enough?
<blowfish>
switching to scaled sky or something in the log
<blowfish>
lamont: what's PEG's condition for turning on after booster pitch if you don't specify a switchover point?
<blowfish>
I see an angle countdown, not sure what it means though
<saabstory88>
For the sky dissapearing, do you mean around 160km?
<saabstory88>
I've seen that happen frequently
<blowfish>
yeah
<saabstory88>
I've always seen that happen with RVE
<saabstory88>
And I've seen it in videos and streams. So there may be a fix, but if there is, it's not something that in my experience is easily done. Or, it may just be the way things are
<blowfish>
huh
<blowfish>
glad to know it's not just me at least
<saabstory88>
Do you get the black lines which focus back towards the planet centroid during ascent?
<blowfish>
I don't remember seeing those
<blowfish>
only oddity was the atmosphere disappearing
<blowfish>
and no clouds/atmo in the main menu, but I rmember that being a known limitation I Think
<saabstory88>
That part seems to be occasional. I usually just see clouds on the northern hemisphere at the loading screen
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<TaggedYa>
Howdy, anybody home
<saabstory88>
Maybe
<taniwha>
I'm at home
<TaggedYa>
Well, as usual, I have a problem. Using 1.3.1 and the golden spreadsheet setup, I have no water.
<TaggedYa>
When I launch I see the ground under where the water should be, at 120K the water shows up.
<TaggedYa>
When something lands by chute where the water should be the splash sound plays, the chutes seem to cut, then the craft plumets to the sea floor and is damaged by the fall.
<TaggedYa>
Also some textures seem to come and go leaving black voids. Or the wrong textures seem to be showing.
<TaggedYa>
I saw some similar stuff in NKs videos so it isn't just me
<soundnfury>
TaggedYa: known bug with Kopernicus 1.3.1-5 and -6
<soundnfury>
the waterlessness that is
<TaggedYa>
Is there a work around
<soundnfury>
roll back to -3
<saabstory88>
Oh right. That bug. I've been building plugins against 1.3.1, and had to remove Kopernicus to revert to stock
<soundnfury>
I'm only sticking with -5 because -3 has a different bug that matters more to me (it doesn't like my gfx so I get yellow planets)
<TaggedYa>
Thanks will roll back and see it the other problems also clear.
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<saabstory88>
Does anyone here have a working 1.3.1 RO/RP-0 install?
<TaggedYa>
The only problem I have had in the first year (more than 60 launches) is the textures.
<TaggedYa>
There are game balance and playability issues but that is an opinion not a function problem.
<saabstory88>
I haven't built a full 1.3.1 RO/RP-0 install yet, but I was hoping someone could test my plugin
<TaggedYa>
soundnfury: Thanks: That fixed both issues.
<TaggedYa>
Saabstory88: I can do that just by making a dupe of my whole game folder.
<TaggedYa>
What does it do?
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<TaggedYa>
Spoke to soon. Got anouther instance of the terrain dissapearing. It happened between 120k and 60k on the way down. When the terrain reapeared it was uneven at the block edges and some blocks were underwater (how ironic).
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<leudaimon>
o/
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<Mike`>
awang: About the ascent, it might be that i can't get into that kidna orbit with that high TWR rocket *without* a coast phase, that might be my problem actually
<Mike`>
because the higher your TWR is, the sooner you need a coast phase for a certain orbit, right?`:)
<Mike`>
awang: and about the google sheets, tbh, without too much thinking, i'd prefer something like a bunch of yaml/json files and a script to build the required KSP files from them. Why? Because they can be checked into the github repo like any other change.
<Mike`>
right now many people just do PRs (like we did) for the autogenerated files not even knowing about the sheets. So if those source yaml/json files would be there, proper PRs could be done.
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<awang>
soundnfury: That's a good point
<awang>
Didn't think of that
<awang>
Mike`: IIRC the way I got around it was using "ullage" motors with stupidly low thrust
<awang>
So it's technically not coasting, but effectively is
<awang>
And yeah, soundnfury convinced me
<awang>
Wasn't the three a yaml file once upon a time?
<awang>
TOML instead of YAML/JSON, maybe?
<leudaimon>
when it used community tech tree it was awang... since the new tech tree by Pap it has been using the spreadsheet. It would be nice to have it in the github repository somehow, but the organization a spreadsheet brings is nice indeed
<leudaimon>
maybe a .csv?
<leudaimon>
it could be built using whatever magic Pap is using to build the tech tree file from the spreadsheet anyway
<awang>
Ah, right
<awang>
....I don't like the sound of a csv, but if it works, it works
<awang>
Pretty sure it won't play well with descriptions, though
<leudaimon>
I have no idea how Pap builds the cfg files from the spreadsheet...
<Pap>
Leudaimon and awang the files are built using some formulas that spit out all of the information needed in the proper KSP format
<awang>
Gotta go, work field trip
<awang>
\o
<Pap>
There are specific sheets that are part of the workbook that handle this
<leudaimon>
hm, and these formulas are also in the excel file I suppose?
<Pap>
Yes, well the Google Sheets file
<leudaimon>
I see
<Pap>
Are you trying to change them, or just regenerate the configs?
<leudaimon>
right now I'm not trying to change anything... just addressing Mike` s comment, which is also something that I thought about
<leudaimon>
one thing that could reduce the number of PRs in the wrong place at least would be to add a comment in the file with a link for the google sheet?
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<BadRocketsCO>
Howdy
<Maxsimal>
Hola
<BadRocketsCO>
So uh
<BadRocketsCO>
Did the first pioneer missions not have any solar panelry?
<BadRocketsCO>
Oh, huh. It had 22 days worth of battery apparently. Makes sense.
<Maxsimal>
Yeah even they had to contend with the tech tree :P
<Pap>
Lol Maxsimal
<Pap>
Good idea leudaimon
<BadRocketsCO>
Maxsimal: heh, i suppose so.
<BadRocketsCO>
Has anyone tried getting a proper lunar periapsis with just SRB's?
<Maxsimal>
Also they got agathorned :P But yeah, RP-1 is in so many ways a great sim, I'm awed by all the work that's gone into it.
<Maxsimal>
How proper is proper? But yeah I've done solid kick to capture lunar orbit, NK's just done one with his most recent twitch stream
<Maxsimal>
Episode 20 I think
<BadRocketsCO>
Ah, nice.
<BadRocketsCO>
Hmm
<leudaimon>
yeah, it's not difficult BadRocketsCo
<leudaimon>
it's harder to get a low lunar orbit, but just capture is fine
<Maxsimal>
The hard one is doing a lunar capture with an unguided probe - mostly because you have to figure out which setting of persistent rotation will give you the right orientation when you try to capture.
<leudaimon>
that's what I thought he wanted
<leudaimon>
if you use "none" and point towards the maneuver node it should work
<leudaimon>
but rotation stabilization and the reference frames have been weird lately
<Maxsimal>
yeah it was weird last time I tried it, but that's been a while *shrug* Will have to figure it out for the RIS game though, no way is anyone who's trying for the moon orbit milestone gonna be able to wait for guidance.
<BadRocketsCO>
Hmm
<leudaimon>
actually, with lunar communications so far out, I'm not sure it's worth it going unguided anymore
<BadRocketsCO>
Why did the Pioneer have 2 sets of SRB's?
<BadRocketsCO>
How did it use both of them?
<Maxsimal>
you can't just tack on enough antennas to give you the range anymore?
<leudaimon>
that's a bunch of antennas, no?
<leudaimon>
I never remember if omnis work like that though
<Maxsimal>
Omni's do. And you only need 10 sputnik antennas, as far as I can remember.
<leudaimon>
haha "only"
<leudaimon>
and it feels very cheaty to me
<Maxsimal>
Because unguided insertion into lunar orbit isn't already 'cheaty'? :P
<leudaimon>
no... it's what was done, no? the whole increasing antenna range by putting several together seems like a loophole in the rules
<leudaimon>
especially because these antennas have no energy comsumption
<BadRocketsCO>
Huh?
<BadRocketsCO>
They do for me.
<Maxsimal>
It was *attempted* maybe, but the first to actually orbit the moon definitely had guidance
<schnobs>
OK, thanks. I was there when soundnfury said it, but it went right past me.
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<leudaimon>
ah, couple things I noticed in my playthrough so far that I think might be bugs... the "old" procedural tanks still appear in the tech tree, and the KRASH configs did not apply automatically, I had to write them down. As I see there is a cfg in the repo, I wonder if there is some MM problem with it
<Pap>
Is anyone here that still wants to learn about how the CFG files are generated by the Spreadsheet?
<leudaimon>
it would be helpful Pap
<Pap>
OK, So on the Sheet TREE, it is only one column wide
<Maxsimal>
"Magic"
<leudaimon>
haha
<Pap>
all you need to do is filter out the "zzz" entries
<Pap>
OK, so after you filter out all of the "zzz" entries
<leudaimon>
ok, so the TREE sheet is basically the cfg once you remove the zzz entries?
<Pap>
Excatly
<leudaimon>
neat
<Pap>
So I see that you are on it
<Pap>
I will show you
<Pap>
So now that it is filtered, put your cursor in Column A on the first Row of part config
<Pap>
Then, hold down CTRL-SHIFT and hit the down arrow
<Pap>
That will select all entries
<leudaimon>
it's not filtered for me, but alright...
<Pap>
Then copy and paste it into the config file (OVERWRITING all previous data) and you are good to go
<Pap>
Weird leudaimon
<leudaimon>
nice Pap... I see why people don't like it much, it's far from "good practice" in programming and keeping code, but it's practical and works
<Pap>
Correct, it was what I had to work with when I was creating it and doing it all on my own, I am open to someone changing it into a better system, but it works
<leudaimon>
ah Pap, when I asked it to filter it tells me that only I can see the filtered view, that's why it didn't show for me
<Pap>
It is telling you that you cannot filter it?
<leudaimon>
I can, but it is not a real change in the sheet, it only shows to the user that filtered
<leudaimon>
and how do you get rid of the ""
<leudaimon>
?
<leudaimon>
another thing... what is outside this? all procedurals + RCS? Those are placed by other files?
<leudaimon>
well, I have to leave here now, I can ask you again later... If I get to understand this enough I can write a wiki page explaining it, might be useful
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<schnobs>
How much hassle will it be to bring new parts into RP-0?
<schnobs>
Thinking especially of station parts.
<Mike`>
depends on if they are already in RO or not i guess
<schnobs>
nothing of the sort, as far as I can tell.
<schnobs>
In the broadest terms, I know that they will need RO data and a place/price on the RP-0 tech tree.
<Pap>
schnobs: The process is not difficult, but the work to get it to there, requires a lot of research, and then dimensional testing, etc
<schnobs>
I guess that stock sizes will not carry over well.
<schnobs>
Can I reasonably expect on set of multipliers to give acceptable results over lots of parts, in one go?
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<leudaimon>
oh Pap I found the engine, tank and RCS configs in the part list... looking for proc avionics now
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<leudaimon>
is it intended that only Tank I can carry sounding payload?
<Mike`>
leudaimon, i think so, because service modules aren't available in early careers
<Probus>
Are Tank I sounding payloads something new?
<Probus>
I thought it was just service modules.
<leudaimon>
SM tanks are not available at start, so I think Tank I always could carry sounding payload. I didn't know later tanks couldn't
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<Maxsimal_>
What do we do to make Krash costs reasonable for RP0 again?
<Maxsimal_>
oh right, there's a cfg in the rp0 directory, think I just have to move it
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<soundnfury>
!tell awang My opinion is that the Tree should be generated from a Python script, so all the 'structured data' that creates it is in the form of Python objects. Kinda like what I've been doing lately with EK, really ;)
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Mike`>
soundnfury, almost identical to my idea, where the tree is generated from a ruby script ;)
<Pap>
soundnfury: is the code to write that to pull it out of the spreadsheet easy enough?
<soundnfury>
ewwwby
<soundnfury>
Pap: I have no idea what is in your spreadsheet, other than Cthulhu
<Pap>
We already generate the information in a format to be pasted directly into the config file, it shouldn't be hard, but I don't know how the API with Google Sheets works
<leudaimon>
Maxsimal_ that file should be MM cfg adding the RP-0 config directly to the KRASH UI... there must be some problem with the MM pass
<leudaimon>
Pap soundnfury I think the ideal would be to have a script doing what Pap's spreadsheet does, and the base file used to run the script in a format easily readable by excel, such as csv or something ASCII-based similar. Would make filtering and reading by humans in general much simpler but also allow for git controlling
<leudaimon>
by base file, I mean the file with the info that is parsed by the script to generate the cfg, in case it is not clear
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I was thinking that the 'base file' would just be a script as well, that's instantiating a bunch of objects.
<soundnfury>
like I say, look at how I've written EK, that's the kind of idea I'm getting at.
<Starwaster>
anyone have any idea why ProtoPartModuleSnapshot.moduleRef (a PartModule) that is ModuleEnginesFX or ModuleEnginesRF cannot be cast to ModuleEngines, even though that same technique is for Part.PartModule by mods such as MJ2 to read fields from ModuleEngineRF?
<Starwaster>
(comes back null)
<Maxsimal_>
leudaimon: Yes, it seems that that MM doesn't work for that cfg - my suspicion is because Krash is updating from the cfg more often then just load. I editted that cfg to add the RP0 config, and it showed up right away - I was expecting to have to relaunch KSP
<leudaimon>
oh, that's nasty
<Maxsimal_>
Oh well, dunno how to solve that. off to bed now though.
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<ProjectThoth>
Anyone got any really good data on Corona RVs?
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<Bornholio>
pa had some good stuff fro figuring out the weights and volume of some of the recon camera things