NathanKell changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator" with a rocket-flying minigame
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<awang> blowfish: consistency? Apparently none of the ModuleEngines matter any more
<awang> Gets overwritten by ModuleEngineConfigs
<awang> Or at least that's the way I understand it
<blowfish> whatever parameters are in the CONFIG {} get overwritten
<blowfish> at least in-game
<blowfish> I'm pretty sure the info you see in the part list tooltip is based on what was originally in ModuleEngines*
<awang> Uh
<awang> I thought the CONFIG{} defines what things will get overwritten with
<soundnfury> awang: "those (ModuleEngines*) parameters which are also in the CONFIG, get overwritten" ?
<soundnfury> is my parse of what blowfish said
<awang> Uh
<soundnfury> i.e. if the CONFIG {} doesn't specify a parameter, it gets left as what the ModuleEngines had
<awang> Hmmm
<blowfish> IIRC ModuleEngineConfigs actually just calls Load() on the engine module with whatever's in the CONFIG {}
<awang> Yeah, I think NK said something along those lines
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<blowfish> now just have to figure out why it's not actually producing thrust
<Bornholio> have a config or MM cache
<Bornholio> kopernicus -7 release today, still nothing about oceans
<soundnfury> -_-
<soundnfury> do the kop devs _know_ it's broken? I didn't see it in their issue tracker
<Bornholio> don't think so but i need to isolate it before i'm adding an issue
<soundnfury> fair
<blowfish> Bornholio: I doubt it's that, I'm working on code to make a single engine module work with thrust transforms with different names
<Bornholio> ah
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<Bornholio> Blue dog adds 11200 patches to my count (51.6k total)
<blowfish> well, it does have a lot of parts
<blowfish> and a lot of patches affect multiple parts
<taniwha> gotta wonder: these days, is there /any/ modded install that does NOT have MM included?
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<blowfish> there are a few just part packs that don't require it
<blowfish> but who installs just one mod?
<taniwha> yeah, normally anybody who installs one mod installs several
<Starman4308> There might be people with very lightly modded installs: things like just KAC, MJ/KER, which might not come packaged with MM.
<taniwha> still, very rare, I imagine
<Starman4308> Mods are a gateway drug to Realism Overhaul, after all.
<taniwha> not for me :)
<soundnfury> Starman4308: it's true.
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<blowfish> .tell NathanKell* Am I correct in reading that the new entry cost system relies on every engine having ModuleEngineConfigs?
<blowfish> !tell NathanKell* Am I correct in reading that the new entry cost system relies on every engine having ModuleEngineConfigs?
<Qboid> blowfish: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> heh, timing
<Qboid> NathanKell: blowfish left a message for you in #RO [26.02.2018 04:37:15]: "Am I correct in reading that the new entry cost system relies on every engine having ModuleEngineConfigs?"
<NathanKell> No, it's not required at all
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<NathanKell> the code is in RF because the same database is used for parts and for engine configs
<NathanKell> but you don't need MEC to use it
<blowfish> okay, maybe this is a more specific scenario
<NathanKell> What's the issue?
<blowfish> I am trying to configure BDB's X-405H
<blowfish> which is also a config on the normal X-405
<blowfish> I currently don't have ModuleEngineConfigs on the part
<NathanKell> set the part name equal to X-405H in the cfg
<NathanKell> the ECM cfg
<NathanKell> that's all you should need to do
<blowfish> I did
<blowfish> bluedog_Vega_Engine = X-405H
<NathanKell> then...it should work >.>
<NathanKell> oh
<NathanKell> _
<NathanKell> don't use _
<NathanKell> that's why
<NathanKell> s / _ / - /
<NathanKell> same with .
<blowfish> oh interesting
<NathanKell> KSP changes all _ to . on part import. To get around that insanity, ECM expect all _ and all . to just be - in the cfg, and sanitizes in code
<blowfish> something to do with KSP's weird handling?
<soundnfury> o/ NathanKell
<NathanKell> up
<NathanKell> yo**
<soundnfury> how're you bearing up?
<NathanKell> yeah, it registers parts with flight IDs at the end, and the partname is separated from the flight ID with an _ so instead of being smart and using the last _ it just changes all previous ones to .
<NathanKell> >.>
<NathanKell> Doing ok :}
<NathanKell> err, :]
<NathanKell> I'm my usual typo-rific self
<NathanKell> Feeling a fair amount of relief tbh
<soundnfury> work going ok? [REDACTED] gonna be released any [REDACTED] soon?
<ProjectThoth> :{]
<soundnfury> ProjectThoth: nice moustache
<ProjectThoth> soundnfury: Makes up for the fact I can't grow one.
* soundnfury 's face is covered in fuzz ^_^
<NathanKell> I hope to be able to be more productive soon. As you can tell from github, my ability to code took a nosedive a while ago >.>
<NathanKell> but apart from me, yeah, [REDACTED] is doing well :)
<ProjectThoth> NathanKell: Hey, put yourself first, don't you forget that.
<NathanKell> :)
<ProjectThoth> There's no harm in saying that you have to step away for a bit to get your life sorted out. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would fault you for that.
<ProjectThoth> And, well, I'm not a contributor by any stretch of the imagination, but I think there isn't a soul in here who would disagree with that.
<ProjectThoth> So just keep that in mind, kid.
<ProjectThoth> (and I say kid knowing that you're probably 5-10 years older than me)
<NathanKell> Thanks <3
<NathanKell> I actually have basically stepped away for a while, and then was mostly only streaming on coming back. I'm hoping that, basically, all that clears up. Rather than getting worse, y'know? :]
<NathanKell> We'll see. But I'm hopeful :)
<soundnfury> Seconded. Look after yourself, particularly your mental health
<ProjectThoth> I have the utmost faith in you.
<soundnfury> you only get so many SAN points, don't waste 'em ;)
<ProjectThoth> 'specially having been down that road before.
<NathanKell> :D :D
<soundnfury> also, /me now has less face fuzz because ProjectThoth reminded me I needed to trim my moustache back a bit
<soundnfury> it interferes with my horn playing
<ProjectThoth> soundnfury: Please tell me you wake up your household every morning by playing the bugle.
<soundnfury> well, since I live alone, in a block of flats, no.
<ProjectThoth> Damn.
<NathanKell> That said, "morning" is the wrongest word in that sentence.
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<soundnfury> True, true.
<ProjectThoth> I'm amazed that people can be morning people.
<ProjectThoth> My brother's one of those types. I don't know how he does it.
<soundnfury> I'm fairly sure they're cheating somehow.
<ProjectThoth> Night is the best time of day. Quiet, peaceful, productive.
<soundnfury> yup. Ideal for playing endless video games :P
<ProjectThoth> I hope to have a job someday where I can work nighttime hours.
<ProjectThoth> 'cept I dunno how my kids would take to that.
<ProjectThoth> (note: I don't have kids yet)
<soundnfury> I have occasionally been known to still be at work at midnight
<soundnfury> but then, I don't have a family either
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<soundnfury> o/ Mike`
<blowfish> no family? working in the middle of the night? must be batman!
<soundnfury> If that logically follows, then _every_ aspie is batman.
<soundnfury> We're all like that
<taniwha> hey, I have family :P
<ProjectThoth> I don't think you have to wear a cape and mask to beat up clowns.
<ProjectThoth> But it certainly helps
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<BadRocketsCo> Howdy
<soundnfury> ahoy-hoy
<BadRocketsCo> What's up?
<soundnfury> not much
<soundnfury> looks like it'll be a fair while yet before RP-1 is ready to release
<soundnfury> what's up with you?
<BadRocketsCo> Sadly yeah
<BadRocketsCo> Eh, was sick for a few days. Now planning on launching a interplanetary probe with atlas-agena
<soundnfury> nice
<BadRocketsCo> I've always used heavier boosters for that but I'll try to be more cost effective this time
<soundnfury> agena is always fun
<BadRocketsCo> It's so darn reliable
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<BadRocketsCo> Ugh, lap top is living its own life again...
<BadRocketsCo> Anyway, yeah
<BadRocketsCo> I've been focusing on being more cost effective this time around. Trying to use the Vanguard for as much LEO launches as possible
<soundnfury> in my experience, with proc avionics it's possible to make a probe light enough to go to venus or mars on Thor-Agena. At least I think so
<soundnfury> may possibly need some Castors to do it
<BadRocketsCo> Ah, nice. I should try that.
<soundnfury> btw sorry about slow responses, I'm playing wart hunder and my damaged 'plane won't fly hands-off any more :D
<BadRocketsCo> Hahah, it's okay.
<BadRocketsCo> What ya flying?
<soundnfury> lanc
<soundnfury> at Guam, as usual -_-
<BadRocketsCo> Oh, heh.
<BadRocketsCo> WT needs to do something about map rotation...I get too much of the same map in a roe
<BadRocketsCo> row*
<BadRocketsCo> Not that it matters too much for planes but deffinetely for tanks
<soundnfury> yeah, one time I got about half a dozen El Alagain :S
<soundnfury> also, not enough cloud >:(
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<soundnfury> ahhh, made the landing :)
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<BadRocketsCo> Woop woop!
<BadRocketsCo> Brb
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<BadRocketsCo> There we go
<BadRocketsCo> soundnfury: so, ya got any projects in KSP?
<soundnfury> not really, treading water until the release
<soundnfury> or rather, until we start a RIS game ;)
<BadRocketsCo> RIS?
<soundnfury> Race Into Space
<BadRocketsCo> Oooh
<soundnfury> though I suppose I did make this: http://jttlov.no-ip.org:8083/ https://github.com/ec429/ek , did you see that yet?
<BadRocketsCo> Oh, no I haven't!
<BadRocketsCo> Sounds awesome though!
<BadRocketsCo> Hmm, I wonder how much the building and launch of a small student satellite would cost...
<ProjectThoth> BadRocketsCo: Probably about $200,000.
<ProjectThoth> Unless you want to develop your own launcher.
<BadRocketsCo> Heh, nah.
<BadRocketsCo> DEVELOPING a launcher will already be bloody expensive, not even talking about it actualy being built...
<BadRocketsCo> Would be awesome to have a sat in orbit
<BadRocketsCo> Estonia already has one - Estcube 1
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<BadRocketsCo> It was meant to test a solar sail but that got damaged on launch sadly
<ProjectThoth> :(
<soundnfury> man that was utterly incredible. Let me tell you the story of what just happened.
<soundnfury> So I was flying my Lanc at Guam (again), and right at the start of the game I messed up, I had a grazing collision with a Stirling that took out all three control axes.
<soundnfury> So I went full United Airlines 232 and used differential throttle to steer
<soundnfury> my flaps still worked, so I used them for pitch (they adjust the trim)
<soundnfury> after a very circuitous route I made it to the enemy AF and dropped my bombs. Flak got a bit near me 'cos I couldn't weave, but didn't do too much damage.
<soundnfury> Then the fighters showed up.
<soundnfury> Despite having no ability to do evasive manœuvres, I still shot the first one down.
<soundnfury> (Sadly the second one got me, but still. I am *buzzing* with adrenaline after that ;)
<ProjectThoth> soundnfury: Nice!
<BadRocketsCo> Hehe, that sounds awesome soundnfury
<soundnfury> (also it was after the rest of the team were all dead, so they were all watching :)
<BadRocketsCo> Noiss
<soundnfury> I love flying bombers :)
<ProjectThoth> My first experience with VR was with flying an F4U Corsair in War Thunder.
<ProjectThoth> That was astounding.
<ProjectThoth> Anywhoo, out for the night. \o
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<BadRocketsCo> Hmm
<BadRocketsCo> I wonder how much a sounding rocket would cost
<soundnfury> sounding rockets are doable on a student-society budget, CUSF's done them.
<soundnfury> sub-Kármán though
<soundnfury> (just a big O-class solid iirc)
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<NathanKell|AFK> night all
<BadRocketsCo> Ah, nice.
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<soundnfury> nn NathanKell|AFK
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<Probus> o/
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<soundnfury> \o
* soundnfury is having pizza at breakfast time, and no-one can stop me!
<soundnfury> mua ha ha.
<Probus> What kind of pizza?
<soundnfury> pepperoni, of course
<soundnfury> (it's the _only_ kind of pizza)
<Probus> Of course after canadian bacon and pineapple
<soundnfury> now I love Canadians dearly...
<soundnfury> but every single one of them should be shot for the crime of putting pineapple on a pizza.
<Probus> :)
<soundnfury> (bacon is good though. I approve of that part.)
<taniwha> hey, I'm Canadian but hate pineapple on pizza!
<soundnfury> taniwha: you will be spared by my stormtroopers :)
<soundnfury> btw, what part of canadia are you from?
<leudaimon> I guess one Italian dies every time someone eats pineapple pizza
<Mike`> o/ :)
<Mike`> when i reconnect it's usually just my internet and i'm usually asleep. :)
<taniwha> soundnfury: Born in Whitehorse (Yukon), grew up in Medicine Hat (Alberta)
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<Bornholio> leudaimon just copy the ten files into the appropriate places in you install
<Bornholio> your
<leudaimon> Bornholio should the tree placement work out automatically?
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<awang> !tell NathanKell btw, if an engine only uses one config from ModuleEngineConfigs, should MEC be skipped and all the stats put into ModuleEngines*? Or should the other configs just be deleted?
<Qboid> awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang> leudaimon: Tree placement should be automatic as long as the engines have the right engineType
<awang> Or at least that's how I understand it
<leudaimon> nice, later I'll try to fetch the PRs and see if I get the new ones then
<leudaimon> there are some changes to global configs, but those are minor apparently
<Pap> They will not autopopulate the tree. It is only an RO push. They need to be added to the spreadsheet and placed in the tree.
<leudaimon> Pap I thought the TREE-Engines.cfg file did that automatically as long as the engines were already in the RO global configs?
<Pap> The actual partname needs to be added or KSP and MM don't even know it exists.
<leudaimon> where are these for engines in RP-0? TREE-Parts.cfg has no engines (only SSTU ones)
<Pap> I'll look when I get to work
<leudaimon> nvm, I found them in TREE-Parts.cfg... they just have strange names
<Pap> They all have strange names. These are the part names set up by the modes. Most aren't real engines.
<leudaimon> yeah... alright, at first I thought the TREE-Engines.cfg file was doing some magic, making these entries in the tree based on the global configs
<leudaimon> I may try to edit the spreadsheet csv to add/change those based on PhineasFreak PR in RO
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<Pap> Anyone in here right now that can help me with some math / physics question?
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<taniwha> Pap: possibly
<taniwha> what's the question?
<Pap> taniwha: Someone wants to take the RO suite of parts and instead use them on Quarter Sized RSS. What kind of math would he need to do to mass, Thrust, and other figures to make them scale correctly?
<taniwha> well, orbital velocity goes with the square root of the scale (assuming 1g surface)
<taniwha> so at 1/4 scale, orbital velocity would be about half that of earth
<taniwha> (about because 200km over Kerbin is not the same as 200km over Earth)
<taniwha> (it's about radius scale, so 800km vs 6600km, which is > 1/10 (kerbin))
<taniwha> or 1800km/6600km > 1/4
<taniwha> however, ΔV to get to orbital altitude will be similar
<taniwha> thrust should stay the same, as should resource mass
<taniwha> so maybe the tank mass should go up a bit (lower mass ratio)
<taniwha> (stock is 9:1, so something higher than that)
<taniwha> but mass ratio = e^(ΔV/Ve) (Ve = Isp * g0)
<taniwha> so, thrust, Isp, resource density: no change. tank mass ratio decrease (thicker walled tanks)
<Maxsimal> You also have to double the mass of your engines (or cut their thrust to 1/2), and double the weight of any payload
<Maxsimal> Basically you're trying to get to a mass fraction that's half as efficient as reality. Or you could just change ISP to 1/2 normal.
<taniwha> Maxsimal: you don't want to fiddle with your engines, really
<taniwha> otherwise you won't get off the ground
<Maxsimal> taniwha: You do if you want to keep things consistent. Your mass ratio is affected by the weight of your engines.
<taniwha> if you want to keep things consistent, don't rescale :P
<Maxsimal> So just double your tank dry mass while leaving engine weight alone doesn't get you to 1/2 dv
<Pap> Basically, you just need to balance it to keep the same TWR on the engines, correct?
<Pap> Well, no, that wouldn't work either
<taniwha> similar TWR for the overall vessel
<Pap> How does stock do it? Everything is just heavier, right?
<taniwha> stock? balance? surely you jest ;)
<Pap> lol
<Maxsimal> Yup. Some ISPs are a little lower.
<Pap> True, true
<Maxsimal> But mostly their mass fractions are MUCH worse.
<Pap> That is what I expected
<taniwha> stock payload fraction is actually very high
<taniwha> something like 20%
<Maxsimal> *Best* stock engine TWR is 25.
<taniwha> /engine/ TWR is mostly irrelevant
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<Maxsimal> I disagree. Engine mass is a big chunk of your dry mass. I guess you could MORE than double the mass penalty of your tanks, if you wanted to keep the same engine masses, but then you have to figure out what that new multiplier is and futz with it more
<taniwha> actually, 25.5
<taniwha> (I thought the rhino would be better, but it's only 22.7)
<taniwha> hmm, a Jumbo-64 is 2/3 the mass of a mainsail while an S3-14400 is the same mass as the rhino
<taniwha> (dry, of course)
<taniwha> hmm, thinking about it, it was rather silly to expect the rhino to have better TWR than the mainsail: cube-sqare
<taniwha> however, straight-scaling should give the rhino 3375kn (instead of 2000) @ 20.25t (instead of 9)
<taniwha> and a TWR of 17
<taniwha> (not that I believe any engine should be straight-scaled)
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<schnobs> o/
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<Maxsimal> o/
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<zilti> Ah dang... Forgot about fuel boiloff... :/ There goes my moon rocket...
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<schnobs> awang: (or whoever asked yesterday) the KRASH dll from the current spreadsheed sucessfully works around tooling cost.
<awang> schnobs: \o/
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<schnobs> TF seems to forget all data if the vessel is destroyed. You need to use parachutes, or leave the vessel while it's still in space.
<awang> zilti: There are upcoming changes to RF that allow you to add insulation, so hopefully that won't be as much an issue in the future
<awang> schnobs: File a bug, and I might get around to it?
<schnobs> You're the TF dev these days?
<schnobs> Will have a closer look first, at any rate. (though not today, supper's calling already)
<schnobs> Oh, and just btw: the Tool It All button is pure gold. Please make it stick, regardless of wording.
<leudaimon> I'm trying to fit the new RealEngines engines into the tree... anybody knows where the A7 should go? Maybe A-4?
<leudaimon> there is A-6 and A-7 in the tree spreadsheet, but only as configs, and I'm not sure from what they are upgrades of?
<Bornholio> A--7 is an upgraded A6
<leudaimon> yeah, I got that, but I don't see any parts which are the A6 too
<leudaimon> nvm, I found it
<leudaimon> just my order by year was confused because those have no year in the spreadsheet
<awang> schnobs: Well, I'm sort of poking around the code to address the performance problems NK was talking about
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<awang> idk if anyone else is working on TF
<leudaimon> ok, next question... any reason for the raptor engine to show as (PART NOT SUPPORTED BY RP-0 OR RO) if the engine is there in RealEngines, with configs?
<awang> leudaimon: Probably doesn't have the right keys in the config
<awang> Otherwise, idk
<leudaimon> hm, ok... so I'll just copy the other parts that show this as well
<awang> It needs ROOROConfig = True somewhere
<awang> in the config
<awang> Technically it needs RP0conf = true in the config, but that should be automatically added if the engine is in Pap's spreadsheet
<leudaimon> yeah, that thing is in the description in Pap's spreadsheet
<zilti> Heh, 4 minutes of trans-lunar injection burn ^^
<leudaimon> but PhineasFreak's cfg also has the %RSSROConfig = False entry
<zilti> awang: Hmm. But I assume that comes with a similar weight penalty like a pressurized service tank?
<awang> zilti: Yeah, but at least it's adjustible
<zilti> awang: ah, the amount of insulation?
<awang> Yep
<zilti> My solution now was to replace the engine with a thrust plate and two pressure-fed AJ-10 (mid) engines, resulting in 2k less dV for that stage
<leudaimon> do normal HP engines in this new system provide some insulation for LOX like previously?
<Maxsimal> Engines? Shouldn't it be the tanks?
<leudaimon> yeah yeah
<leudaimon> I'm doing too much stuff at the same time haha
<Maxsimal> no worries
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<leudaimon> hm, nothing superdraco-like in the spreadsheet... will anything explode if I don't add it?
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<zilti> Of course now one of the two engines for the transfer burn fails... Grrr...
<leudaimon> \o/ Pap apparently I learned to use your spreadsheet
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<Pap> See leudaimon it is not complicated. If I can do it, basically any of the people in this IRC far exceed my skills
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<leudaimon> haha I still have no idea how the bunch of formulas in the cfg generation work
<leudaimon> but I managed to include/fix the RealEngine parts in the new version
<Pap> I can explain it in detail if you care to know?
<zilti> *sigh* how is it even possible for a simple, pressure-fed engine to fail so often...
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<Rokker> so i just had a rocket fail in the best way possible
<Rokker> my uncontrolled sounding rocket pitched south and looked like it would hit a residential area of florida
<Rokker> but it ended up landing right off the shores of lake okeechobee
<Rokker> ugh, uncontrolled sidemounted stages are so much harder than they need to be in ksp
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<Starwaster> so I'm driving my little amphibious rover with its Lynx boat engines... and suddenly I thought... what if there's a Reaper Leviathan beneath me...?
<awang> zilti: ~~magic~~
<awang> It's not like it's rocket science or anything :P
<leudaimon> No worries Pap! I'm happy using it for these small fixes
<Rokker> Starwaster: nah, just a ghost leviathan
<Rokker> sseriously tho, sidelaunched payloads are annoying in KSP
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<Bornholio> okay how many of theses PR's can be pushed? are they loitering cause they are wrong? Or do they need people to test? or or or
<awang> Yes
<Bornholio> lots of BDB stuff that could use, testing, I just installed that, time to test?
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<awang> Bornholio: Doesn't hurt if you do
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<Bornholio> is your slinq one a go? or DOA? I'll start with testing things you have in RP1
<awang> I'd hold off on the slinq one
<Bornholio> k
<awang> It's not strictly necessary, and it's worth talking about