<Bornholio>
not sure it is very well rp-1 cost balanced, but atleast not too far off
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<awang>
Probus: I'd expect FASA to be RP-1 compatible? Or at least the important parts
<awang>
Since most of the interactions are through .cfg files
<awang>
And those tend to be pretty stable across versions
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<sgrif>
Anyone have an issue with falling through the ocean in RP-1? Like the probe just goes straight through it and the parachute continues until it hits the ocean floor
<Bornholio>
do you have kopernicus -3,-4 or -5
<sgrif>
-5 I think but let me double check
<sgrif>
Yeah -5
<Bornholio>
made sure you have Scaled RSS Textures?
<sgrif>
Yes
<Bornholio>
someone else in backchat ahd the same problem lemme browse back
<taniwha>
check KSP.log for exceptions
<Bornholio>
probus what was your fix?
<taniwha>
notably either pqs or kopernicus
<Bornholio>
might have a double textures load or something like that
<sgrif>
I've got some exceptions from FAR, but nothing from kopernicus or pqs
<taniwha>
ok. that's always my first stop
<Bornholio>
if you want to post a link to your log and i'll take a look
<awang>
SRBuchanan: Maybe batteries just sucked that badly then?
<awang>
idk
<Bornholio>
awang the russian NTR program was much smaller but active through into the late eighties. the 600 series was always paper, and rightly so
<awang>
Bornholio: First I've heard of the Russian NTR program, although I'm not really that surprised it existed
<awang>
Why was it so infeasible?
<Bornholio>
the RD-0410 is honestly more impressive, it ran and for long time periods with very low uranium loss, the SNTP program in the early 90's was going to buy some of their metal carbide fuels for testig before the fall of Soviet union
<awang>
Huh
<awang>
Wonder where we would be if NTRs got more research
<Bornholio>
nice compact 500MW engiens with zero fuel loss and ISP's about 940
<Bornholio>
right now the existing research is moving to using low enriched uranium fuels
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* UmbralRaptor
didn't realize solid cores could get above ~900 s.
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<awang>
Oh, trying to deal with the enriched fuel shortage due to nuclear restrictions?
<awang>
What is NASA going to do about the plutonium shortage, anyways?
<awang>
Assuming NASA gets funding for outer planet probes
<Bornholio>
thats a mixed bag, up a good amount but a bit of a shake up
<SRBuchanan>
The hard limit on solid-core NTR's is about a thousand seconds.
<SRBuchanan>
At that point you're running just shy of melting.
<taniwha>
SRBuchanan: if you're just shy of melting, you'd be quite structurally unsound
<SRBuchanan>
920-950 seconds is more readily achievable with modern materials.
<SRBuchanan>
Yup.
<taniwha>
time for tungsten-carbide chambers and nozzles?
<SRBuchanan>
So it's best to back off a few hundred Kelvin.
<Bornholio>
thats why current research targets are set on ultrapure tungsten mfg
<taniwha>
oh, is TC too "cool"?
<Bornholio>
and they are hitting 96% purity now so the are above target
<SRBuchanan>
The thousand-seconds rule of thumb's more based on the melting point of the Uranium.
<SRBuchanan>
But yeah, the more pure your other materials the less creep, which is good.
<SRBuchanan>
Also cooling down a bit. If the fuel's properly encapsulated you can afford it to start to fringe into the lower range for creep, but if you throat gets soft that's going to be a big problem.
<SRBuchanan>
*your
<UmbralRaptor>
Hafnium carbide, or does the exhaust react with it too much?
<Bornholio>
hot hydrogen is fun stuff, at least its not hot oxygen :P
<UmbralRaptor>
(Melting point: 500 C above pure tungsten)
<taniwha>
there's stuff with higher melting points than tungsten?
<UmbralRaptor>
Materials science is weird.
<awang>
I thought tungsten had the highest melting point of pure elements
<taniwha>
1) I thought tungsten was the highest. 2) tungsten is already scary hot
<taniwha>
awang: of pure, quite likely
<taniwha>
but I thought it was highest for all
<Bornholio>
also nuetron properies matter a lot
<awang>
Welp
<taniwha>
Bornholio: yeah
<awang>
Apparently carbon has a higher melting point
<UmbralRaptor>
IIRC, carbon has a higher melting point (at least in diamond form), but diamonds oxidize a lot more easily…
<awang>
3800K vs 3695K
<Bornholio>
SNTP made Carbon-Carbon turbopumps
<schnobs>
seconding SRBuchanan above: the lack of batteries in the starting tech feels pretty arbitrary.
<schnobs>
Avionics core have little juice, just enough for one set of transmissions. Stacking them is not a reasonable option because of mass.
<SRBuchanan>
There's a recently-discovered tungsten alloy that can go higher than pure tungsten, I believe.
<schnobs>
though maybe the real problem is that transmitting science now eats serious power.
<SRBuchanan>
NTR-exhaust hydrogen is even more fun since a good bit of it dissociates into gaseous monatomic hydrogen at that temperature.
<awang>
When did science transmissions start eating more power?
<SRBuchanan>
It's pretty reactive stuff.
<schnobs>
awang: no clue, I've been away from RP-0 for at least a year.
<SRBuchanan>
I'm actually fine with the transmissions eating power - it's only realistic for the early radios to be power-hungry. I just want to be able to strap on some crappy batteries.
<Bornholio>
thus the soviets added heptane to protect eh carbides in their fuel rods
<SRBuchanan>
As far as I'm aware, learning how to wire up a few more simple batteries to a power supply was never a serious technical obstacle.
<Bornholio>
of course batteries are one whole science away
<awang>
Maybe once more battery levels are added?
<awang>
Assuming more battery levels are actually needed?
<awang>
What kind of batteries do space things use anyways?
<awang>
Li-ion is light-ish, but reactive
<schnobs>
I'm still in the first sounding rockets stage, so I don't know how transmissions will work out later.
<awang>
Although considering rockets in general, that's probably not a big deal
<awang>
schnobs: IIRC early-ish probe cores have obscene amounts of electricity
<Bornholio>
Zinc-Mercury oxide in explorer
<schnobs>
awang: for sounding rockets, zinc-coal would do.
<awang>
I had a polar orbit probe hit all biomes on a single Sputnik core charge
<awang>
although now that I think about it, the charge didn't really go down at all...
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Wonder if something in my install is borked
<awang>
schnobs: zinc-coal? Is that actually a thing?
<schnobs>
Used to be *the* standard consumer battery well into the 80s.
<awang>
...wow
<SRBuchanan>
Zinc-Carbon, basically.
<SRBuchanan>
Nickel-Cadmium and Lithium-Ion are a lot more popular now.
<SRBuchanan>
Lithium-Ion's more mass-efficient but NiCads have better long-term stability.
<awang>
I knew about lead-acid, ni-cad, li-ion, and li-polymer
<awang>
Never heard of zinc-coal/zinc-carbon
<schnobs>
Alkaline was better, but also more expensive. For all I know, Walkmen and Boomboxes may have ushered in its breakthrough as the new normal.
<schnobs>
Back to transmissions & electricity: Some time ago, antennas used relatively little power. Reasoning was that they're always on, transmitting telemetry or whatnot. Basically most of a probes' needs were shifted to the probe itself.
<awang>
idk what dropbox was doing
<awang>
btw, if anyone wants a KRASH that will let you disable TF and uses tooled parts for sim costs
<SpecimenSpiff>
does anyone know who it was that found the mm issue with forgotten real issues and had the fix? My irc client doesnt keep history
<schnobs>
gives expected demand 320--360W for cruise, 400W for Jupiter encounter.
<schnobs>
Also says that 420W are necessary to run all systems simultaneously.
<schnobs>
(Voyager)
<schnobs>
245W for the tank heating. No PU there, at any rate.
<awang>
Huh
<awang>
What's the high "idle" power draw for?
<schnobs>
1-Watt Radioisotope Heating Units near several experiments, but emphatically not near the particle detectors.
<schnobs>
you're looking at teh table listing the transmitters?
<schnobs>
S-band TWTA and so on?
<awang>
Oh derp, missed that somehow
<awang>
Yeah, I see it
<awang>
Dont' understand German, though :(
<schnobs>
That's not "idle" but "low-power mode" -- might be a distinction without difference, trying to quickly pars ethe text if there's anything about the topic.
<schnobs>
Nope, sorry. It says that only one transmitter was active at any given time, but nothing more.
<awang>
:(
<awang>
Thanks for trying, though!
<schnobs>
Uh-oh. It's the anniversary of the Dresden bombing again. The usual suspects cranked up to eleven.
<Bornholio>
what do you mean
<schnobs>
The past decade or so, the "germans were victims too" crowd has attached to that event, staging marches and bemoaning how they've been forgotten by history. Those are bad enough.
<schnobs>
Then there's the counter-demonstrators, quite a few of which are so counter, it's truly bizarre.
<Bornholio>
ah kinda like the neo's here
<schnobs>
Yeah, alt-right meets crtl-left. And every year it's the dominating event in the news cycle, so there is no escape.
<SRBuchanan>
I mean, the firebombing of Dresden was pretty horrific.
<SRBuchanan>
But there was a lot of stuff like that going around on all sides.
<SRBuchanan>
More than enough victimhood to go around.
<Bornholio>
well my wedding aniversiary is on pearl harbor day, so we go and eat japanese food :P
<SRBuchanan>
Heh.
<schnobs>
Back to topic: my KSC has moved underground, persistent between saves.
<SRBuchanan>
That's to hide it from communist spy satellites.
<Bornholio>
anyway have a good night/day/morning :) excavation time
<SRBuchanan>
Death is a preferable alternative to communism!
<SRBuchanan>
Communism is the very definition of failure!
<SRBuchanan>
Etc.
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<schnobs>
Bornholio: one more who won't hit the water.
<schnobs>
my chutes deployed too late, I should have splashed down catastrophically. Instead I kept falling to the bottom of the sea.
<schnobs>
At parachute speed.
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<Bornholio>
Ve = SQRT[(2*k/(k-1))*(R'*Tc/M)*(1-(Pe/Pc)(k-1)/k)]
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<sgrif>
Bornholio: I'm sure you're not up yet, but when you're around -- Double mod manager was not the cause of the falling through the ocean issue. It still happens after removing one of them. KSP.log: https://gist.github.com/sgrif/cd9ccb96bb39f3e96c23ea4f12bb4df9
<sgrif>
(Or if anyone else is around who can help me figure out where to look for this issue. The problem is that things just fall right through the ocean, parachutes remain deployed until it hits the ocean floor)
<Probus>
I have a similar problem sgrif. Except I don't see the water at all.
<sgrif>
Probus: Are you using scatterer? I suspect if I remove it, there's no water
<Probus>
I wonder if completely uninstalling RSS and RSS textures. Then reinstalling fresh would help. No scatterer.
<sgrif>
Probus: For me this is a completely fresh install. I'm trying without scatterer now to confirm, I suspect we're having the same issue
<Probus>
We must have installed the wrong version of a mod, don't you think?
<sgrif>
Yes, but I have no clue what it could be besides Kopernicus which is the one that I know I have the correct version of for sure
<Probus>
Me too.
<sgrif>
Yup, no visible ocean if I remove scatterer
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<sgrif>
I wonder if it's just that RSS isn't compatible with -5? There have been no commits since -5 was released, and it does mention that it breaks a ton of things. I'm going to try -3
<Probus>
Good idea. I bet NathanKell would know what's going on.
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<sgrif>
Probus: That fixed it
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<Probus>
Sweet!
<Guest96568>
howdy
<Guest96568>
err
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<Probus>
o/
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<BadRocketsCo2>
ugh
<BadRocketsCo2>
anyway
<BadRocketsCo2>
I need a little help with my install.
<Probus>
That's been happening a lot.
<BadRocketsCo2>
It�s 1.2.2 and it keeps freezing on loading
<Probus>
!tell schnobs You need to revert Kopernicus to -3 to fix that problem.
<Qboid>
Probus: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Probus>
!tell NathanKell RSS is not fully compatible with Kopernicus -5. Have to use the -3 for the oceans to work correctly.
<Qboid>
Probus: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<BadRocketsCo2>
this is what it gives me at the end...
<Probus>
Good luck BadRocketsCo2. I have no idea.
<BadRocketsCo2>
heh
<BadRocketsCo2>
thanks
<awang>
Are there any message in logs about RSS/Kopernicus?
<awang>
The RSS code doesn't refer to Kopernicus in any way
<Probus>
Something is out of wack awang.
<awang>
Yeah, I've noticed
<awang>
Wanted to see if there was a quick fix before starting my regular work day
<awang>
RSS source code doesn't refer directly to the Kopernicus source code, unfortunately, so nothing can change there
<awang>
Guess that the only alternative is that something changed in the cfgs
<awang>
And I really don't know cfgs that well
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<Slaintemaith>
lamont: I finally got the stupid shuttle into stupid orbit with your autopilot. Did you know that the RED line is the one you're supposed to stop your pitch program on, and the ...other ones are less useful for that task?
<awang>
Slaintemaith: Pretty sure the lines are just debug lines
<awang>
Didn't think you're supposed to use them to actually determine settings
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<Slaintemaith>
Welp, I did. It worked.
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<Slaintemaith>
Now I just have to over-power the booster sep motors so they actually do something instead of having the boosters take out the wings.
<Probus>
lol
<Slaintemaith>
But, you know, one thing at a time.
<Probus>
Woohoo! I have water again!
<Slaintemaith>
This is a good thing, I hope.
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<schnobs>
Probus: how did you get the water?
<Qboid>
schnobs: Probus left a message for you in #RO [13.02.2018 13:56:13]: "You need to revert Kopernicus to -3 to fix that problem."
<schnobs>
OK.
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<Slaintemaith>
So... what settings will give my little SRBs 20,000lbs of thrust for 1.5 seconds?
<Slaintemaith>
Eh. I'll just play with the numbers and see what blows it up.
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<Slaintemaith>
That did it. Whatever I typed in there.
<Slaintemaith>
Was there a local/global setting in the VAB in 1.2.2?
<Slaintemaith>
Like keyboard command?
<awang>
What do you mean by local/global?
<Slaintemaith>
Uh. In 1.3.1, you can switch rotation/offset of parts in local mode or global mode. Local meaning directions relative to the part, and global with absolute directions.
<Slaintemaith>
It's useful for things like landing gear which get very tetchy if they're not placed in global mode to be straight up/down perfectly.
<schnobs>
Bio Samples no longer work in flight?
<Slaintemaith>
schnobs: Never tried. =(
<Slaintemaith>
Guessing there's no "control from here" element in RO?
<schnobs>
Parsing suituation mask... seems biosamples require at least "flying high".
<soundnfury>
Slaintemaith: in 1.2.2 local/global was keyboard 'F'
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<awang>
Slaintemaith: Should be "F"
<awang>
Er
<awang>
Ninja'd :(
<soundnfury>
and "control from here" should work on cockpits/pods, avionics, and docking ports
<Probus>
taniwha, do you have a compiled version of EarlyBird?
<Slaintemaith>
soundnfury: Thanks!
<Slaintemaith>
awang: Also thanks!
<Slaintemaith>
Doesn't seem to. At least I cannot action-group it. I'll poke around a little more.
<Slaintemaith>
Right now I just want to do a successful launch-to-orbit test. All previous tests were just to see if it's possible. I haven't actually -done- it yet. When I do: cigar and tequila.
<Slaintemaith>
RO Min orbital height is... I forget. 115? 150?
<schnobs>
140
<Slaintemaith>
Thanks.
<Slaintemaith>
That's what I thought.
<Slaintemaith>
Oooh. I broke it.
<Slaintemaith>
Okay. So that's a thing. Without RCS fuel, I can get the shuttle in to orbit. Barely. Without it, I break the PEG.
<Slaintemaith>
A-ha! Looks like having the OMS engines in the staging process breaks it. Close off the fuel to the engines and it works fine.
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<Probus>
Is spacedock down for anyone else?
<Slaintemaith>
Probus: Yep.
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<schnobs>
RP-1 gameplay leaves much to be desired.
<schnobs>
Still not at my first satellite, so it's a bit early for a verdict, but...
<schnobs>
Its definetly funneling me, I have to do certain things n a certain order.
<Maxsimal>
Yeah the pacing isn't the greatest. I think partially because it's meant to be historical - and historically things proceeded in a certain direction at a certain pace. Also, most development has been focused on improving the simulation realism and tuning, not the pacing or contract variety.
<schnobs>
The funelling in itself wouldn't be that bad, if one had a clear idea what one is supposed to do.
<Maxsimal>
That said, I still love it :). I'm *really* hoping that when that 'making history' EP comes out, we'll be able to incorporate it. Making contracts with contract configurator is a HUGE pain in the ass, it'd be so nice to have a better interface for that.
<Maxsimal>
At which points did you feel like you didn't know what to do?
<schnobs>
very much, right now.
<schnobs>
I've unlocked lots of techs and feel like this should allow me to do new things, but frankly it doesn't.
<Maxsimal>
I mean - before you start launching satellites, you're really just supposed to launch sounding rockets and/or manned suborbital missions while getting the tech needed to be able to launch a satellite
<Maxsimal>
How many is 'lots'? The tech tree has a lot more nodes now so, unless you're an uber-optimizer, even launching your first satellite might require 15-20 nodes.
<schnobs>
I *might* attempt to make an early satellite launcher on insufficient tech, but with tooling cost being a thing, I also feel like I'm not supposed do one-off rockets.
<schnobs>
So basically I'm waiting for the able core and late-50s rockets, wondering why the teh nodes have been sliced so finely.
<Maxsimal>
Ehh, I like the fine granularity - makes you feel the pace of historical development. But I can see why others might not.
<Maxsimal>
on the other hand, there are a LOT of parts and engine variants - when there were fewer nodes, you could feel overwhelmed with new options when you unlocked things
<Pap>
What would fix the early game grind? It is real.
<schnobs>
I get your point. But it's also a lot of gameplay interaction with no discernible payoff.
<Pap>
Pushing the start date back to what year would be ideal?
<Maxsimal>
Pap - Pushing start dates back would be one good way
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Another would be to add more contract variety earlier. I have a bunch of ideas but every time I slam my face into CC I'm dissuaded.
<Pap>
There is just no way to get through the first 8 years of grind without grinding
<Pap>
What kind of stuff do you mean Maxsimal? What contract ideas?
<schnobs>
As far as I'm concerned, an option to skip to ~1960 might be a good idea.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Another thing that could be tweak is to slow rocket build rates a bit, but make contracts pay better - basically, less launches for the same reward, so less grinding.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Well, for unmanned I think I could add some varienty to sounding rockets by doing the following
<schnobs>
Sounding rockets and unguided upper stages are fun once, but on the umpteenth playthrogh they become an obstacle.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: 1 - Add more mission variety by having different criteria that are optionally added to contracts. I've come up with 'Time limited' (you get one chance), 'Requires return' and 'Sensitive cargo' (limited to less than 5g on boost phase).
<schnobs>
Also, with the early game following historic precedent so strictly, a Walkthrough might be in order. Literally spelling out what the player is supposed to do in which order.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Also, extend the sounding rocket program to an MRBM/IRBM/ICBM development program that requires you to build succssively more capable and/or precisely guided rockets that are still not orbit-capable.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: For Manned, I write up a thing in the issues list on improving X-plane contracts with more variety as well, to make pre-orbital manned mission stuff more interesting
<Qboid>
[#710] title: Contracts To-Do List | This is a running list of the contracts I still want / need to add to RP-0.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/710
<schnobs>
And... sorry, I'm going off the deep end now. But if RP-0 could allow for alternate histories, that would be great.
<schnobs>
In 1955, everybody knew that the move into space would start with a station and a regular shuttle service.
<schnobs>
...yeah, that's a mouthful.
<schnobs>
But back to the small things that can be fixed: Not having batteries to start with just feels wrong. I'm also missing a suitable antenna to put on the tip of my rockets.
<Slaintemaith>
Lest we forget how advanced aircraft were in 1960--and how much research could be done just with jets.
<schnobs>
Having found it under Lunar Ranged Communication, I get a feel of "neener neener, we won't let you just yet".
<lamont>
SlainteMath: yeah the debug lines are a bit difficult to explain, requires explaining the PEG algorithm fully, which starts with linear tangent steering
<lamont>
@Slaintemaith ^^^
<Slaintemaith>
Well, I worked past it. I can get the PEG to work by disabling the OMS via the fuel cutoffs.
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<Maxsimal>
schnobs: If you're not orbital, you haven't hit the 1960's yet - and while yeah, good batteries and antenna existed by the 1950's, none of them were space-proven hardware.
<Slaintemaith>
Although having a PEG 'stop' stage variable would be nice, so that the PEG knows when to stop calculating what stages can help it get to orbit.
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: Anyway, I finally got the pitch portion working fine. The performance is still a bit anemic--but that's not the problem of the autopilot anymore.
<lamont>
yeah the problem is that NASA had real trajectory optmizers to figure out how to fly that thing correctly, and PEG is not what they used for that
<lamont>
i’m abusing the crap out of PEG as a launch guidance algorithm which it isn’t
<Slaintemaith>
Also: The shuttle pitches -fast-. Basically clears the tower, then bends over to 50-40 degrees.
<Slaintemaith>
Well, I'm thinking if I kill the mass of the shuttle itself it might help with all the problems.
<Slaintemaith>
Of course that might cause others on reentry...
<Slaintemaith>
But one stage at a time.
<Slaintemaith>
And by kill I mean shave off a bit here and there.
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: I'll drag that stupid thing in to orbit. Kicking and screaming if I have to.
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<lamont>
yeah it just looked like you were short on dV one way or the other once you got to insertion
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: As it should be. The shuttle isn't in orbit at MECO. Not sure if you can make your autopilot function like that as well--I know yours goes for periapsis, then negotiates apo after. Will yours handle a number lower than periapsis?
<lamont>
a number lower than periapsis?
<Slaintemaith>
Yes. Sounds silly, I know.
<lamont>
its actually the same algorithm as the shuttle used under the covers, but the UX doesn’t expose the parameters
<lamont>
the algorithm really takes altitude, velocity and flight angle for cutoff
<Slaintemaith>
I mean... I'm sure I don't understand how it works, but basically with the shuttle one shoots for a not-quite orbit.
<lamont>
which i could expose directly, but it then becomes a problem of “you know how to find the flight angle of your target oribt right, its just some simple math?”
<Slaintemaith>
=)
<Slaintemaith>
I also understand that pretty much no one is interested in flying the shuttle. =)
<lamont>
and i looked at doing off-apsis insertion into elliptical orbits and i couldn’t quite wrap my head around what worked and what did not
<Slaintemaith>
No worries.
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<Slaintemaith>
Well, if it makes you feel any better: What you made works.
<Slaintemaith>
I'm just going to have to get this working by using the time-honored tradition of fudging the mass on the parts and cheating.
<Slaintemaith>
Which also means, since the parts don't automatically update from .craft files, I'll have to remake the whole thing.
<Slaintemaith>
Silly question: "Tons" in kerbal are Metric tons, no?
<Slaintemaith>
Huh. Seems my first guess with the numbers got it. Either that or I edited the wrong things and it didn't change anything--which is probably more likely.
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<Slaintemaith>
Oooh...numbers are looking better! 1000 dv with the OMS--which is accurate!
<Slaintemaith>
Yay! Orbit!
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<lamont>
tons = 1000kg
<lamont>
not freedom tons
<Slaintemaith>
Heh. metric ton. =)
<Slaintemaith>
What's interesting is, now that the numbers are lining up better and the spacecraft is able to make orbit with the proper delta vee m/s remaining...
<Slaintemaith>
How the HELL did it ever carry anything in to orbit? This is an empty, empty shuttle.
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<Slaintemaith>
lamont: How does one -disable- the PEG once and for all? It seems to keep coming back on whenever I want to make a maneuver.
<lamont>
PEG runs maneuver nodes now
<lamont>
in my branch its hardcoded and its a bit janky because to watch it do maneuvers you have to keep the ascent guidance windows both open which is a huge waste of screen real estate
<lamont>
now that the code is more or less working correctly i need to do a fairly massive UX overhaul and move stuff around and make it all a bit more sensible
<Slaintemaith>
Yeah. I have to 'reset PEG' in order to make any MJ maneuver now.
<Slaintemaith>
Ah.
<Slaintemaith>
So long as it's doing what -you- expect it to do. =P
<lamont>
yeah, more or less
<lamont>
still my development branch, so you’re getting development in progress...
<Slaintemaith>
That's fine. I just like to know if I'm in "dunno what's going on" or "bug" territory.
<Slaintemaith>
They're not mutually exclusive.
<lamont>
the fact that the ascent window updates PEG status at all was sort of a surprising happy accident to me and let me go “okay use that to focus on the code and forget the UX entirely for now…”
<Slaintemaith>
I'm really liking the attitude adjustment bits of MJ lately.
<lamont>
i think its about UX time now, but i should probably do some more just playing with it to see what other bugs i can find
<Slaintemaith>
I will say the PEG needs to be reset before it runs the maneuver node.
<Slaintemaith>
Anyone not expecting that will... not expect that.
<Slaintemaith>
Hrm. Spacedock is still dead. Anyone know where I can get scatterer 0.0320b ?
<Probus>
I can understand roll out being several days, but rolling it back in the VAB should be quite short.
<soundnfury>
eh, not if you're NASA and have to take all the pyros back out
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<wb99999999>
rolling out a Soyuz doesn't seems to take that long
<Probus>
Nor a Falcon 9
<wb99999999>
usually in the time-lapse it takes a daylight
<Probus>
But maybe early rockets took longer?
<schnobs>
On the NASA side, rockets were rolled out long before launch. Lots of checks and even integration happened on the pad.
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<schnobs>
I seem to remember something of a few weeks to a few months.
<Probus>
Jeeze. You'd think the weather would take a high toll.
<schnobs>
Just btw, what happens when a hurricane sweeps through? Must have happened a few times by now...
<wb99999999>
they have procedures to roll it back in case of a hurricane
<wb99999999>
like, of course
<schnobs>
Wasn't there something last year, one of those private rockets upper stage burning up? Footage was all over this channel. IIRC the scheduled launch was ten days away or so.
<schnobs>
burning up and exploding on the pad, I mean.
<wb99999999>
btw I always thought that F9 second stage is seriously large for its class
<Probus>
Its grown.
<wb99999999>
oh god
<soundnfury>
well, it has to do more work so that the first stage can flyback
<soundnfury>
hence why it doesn't have a TWR of "a gnat farting" like most upper stages nowadays
<wb99999999>
yep, and I use to worry about the efficiency of such an arrangement
<wb99999999>
in theory it is better to have the previous stage do more work than the succeeding stage...but then ISP has to be taken into account
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<wb99999999>
anyway the conclusion was that it was totally fine efficiency wise
<Probus>
They put a larger bell on it I know.
<wb99999999>
no no no
<wb99999999>
a WAY larger nozzle
<Grayduster>
Should the XASR-1 aerobee upgrade cost anything, if you have purchasing on? Once researched, it's available to switch to in the VAB, but also says it should cost 186k in the R&D department in order to unlock. I assume it should be one or the other, not both :)
<wb99999999>
at its widest it's basically as wide as the interstage would allow...
<soundnfury>
Grayduster: R&D tells lies
<soundnfury>
all engine upgrades there display as 185k, it's bollocks
<Grayduster>
soundnfury: So it's not intended to cost anything for tech upgrades, only for new parts?
<Grayduster>
I was thinking it was a -tad- steep as the first upgrade :)
<soundnfury>
it's intended to cost whatever the engine gui in the vab says
<soundnfury>
which iirc is 1k
<Grayduster>
Good news!
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<soundnfury>
Grayduster: s/!/, everyone!
<Qboid>
soundnfury thinks Grayduster meant to say: Good news, everyone!
<soundnfury>
;)
<Grayduster>
And of course, you read that in the only voice that's allowed :)
<Pap>
awang: that is 100% accurate now that I'm not around anymore. :(
<awang>
Pap: Not yet, I think
<awang>
Pap: Pls come back :(
<soundnfury>
seconded
<awang>
NK's wanted to release This Weekend (tm) for the past two weekends or so
<Pap>
I really wish I could and had the time. 😢
<Pap>
I don't even have a working install. I followed Bornholio spreadsheet he put together and then loaded it up one time, but I bored something and didn't have time to fix it
<Pap>
Borked
<awang>
Pap: I'd offer to give you mind, but mine is symlink'd to death
<awang>
:(
<schnobs>
back to funneling and the early tech tree...
<awang>
I think Bornholio dropbox'd a GameData somewhere above?
<Pap>
schnobs: any idea on ways to make that better?
<Bornholio>
its a couple weeks old
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<schnobs>
If it's so vitaly important that the player does not parform achievement X before date Y, wouldn't it be better to do away with teh tech tree completely, and unlock parts on schedule?
<Pap>
Better help text in a GUI when you start? Or more instructions in contracts?
<Pap>
schnobs: we don't stop anyone from doing anything before a specific date. I know some of the guys on here have orbited in 1952
<schnobs>
Would also provide an easy mechanism to skip parts of the game.
<schnobs>
Pap: I'm snarky, but don't believe that I'm tring to piss on your work.
<Pap>
schnobs: I have had the same thoughts about early game. It is more grind than fun. That is why I ask
<Bornholio>
there is an easy mechanism to reduce grind (difficulty)
<Bornholio>
I'm grinding 'cause hard mode
<schnobs>
It's not even grind per se... though lets stick to that word for now.
<schnobs>
It gives one the feeling that things are happening, that progress is made, but that progress doesn't really play out in achievements.
<schnobs>
What's left is the feeling busywork and killing time. Not a good gameplay experience.
<soundnfury>
I don't get that feeling at all
<soundnfury>
I dunno if it's because I'm obsessively trying to optimise every last second of how long it takes me to get to first orbit, or what
<soundnfury>
but I find the early game so engaging I keep going back and starting new careers so I can do it again
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<soundnfury>
(which is why I haven't put a man on, or even near, the moon for over a year, heh)