<Bornholio>
mainly due to its insane turbomachinery
<wb99999999>
how does it compare to the Russian one
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<wb99999999>
is the Russian one equally crazy or did it cut some corners?
<Bornholio>
nk-33 is their insane engine, combined full flow expander cycle, all on one shaft
<Bornholio>
that said the spacex engines are impressive for chamber pressures also
<wb99999999>
oh I meant to ask about the RD-0120
<Bornholio>
lots of inovation like most russian liquids but the US has always lead in hydrogen ever since the rover program started
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Most notably, the bells on the RD-0120s were channel-wall, not brazed tubes.
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<wb99999999>
hey guys
<wb99999999>
did any of you guys built any thing with RD-108 lately?
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<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: the golden spreadsheet is looking very blue
<ferram4>
Hmm
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: is RO for 1.3.1 waiting on a nonexistent NK, or something else
<ferram4>
I think it's partly NK, partly that I haven't pushed FAR for 1.3.1 out yet
<egg|zzz|egg>
methinks if you wait for NK you're not going to release for a long time
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: there's pretty much an even split in the Principia userbase between 1.2.2 and 1.3.1 right now :-p
<ferram4>
Yeah
<egg|zzz|egg>
(341 vs. 391 it seems, a bit more on the newer version)
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<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: oh by the way, if I made a skybox that's properly aligned instead of mirrored/turned in weird ways like all the existing ones, where should I put it? https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/162200-wip122-131-principia%E2%80%94version-christoffel-released-2017-12-18%E2%80%94n-body-and-extended-body-gravitation-axial-tilt/&page=25&tab=comments#comment-2722222
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: I mean technically I *did* make a skybox that's properly aligned but not sure someone wants to play with https://imgur.com/a/sFC83
<ferram4>
Hmm... I'm not sure.
<ferram4>
Possibly look into having it added to one of the mods that replaces skyboxes already>
<egg|zzz|egg>
also I love the wording "outside the celestial sphere"
<Bornholio>
waiting on a NK as far as i can tell
<Bornholio>
there is awangs .dlls that work for most things
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<Bornholio>
!tell wb9* rd108 is broke in dev
<Qboid>
Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio>
!tell wb9* I have a fix, that i think is still broken in a pr, that includes my nukes that got broken at the same time as the rd108
<Qboid>
Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio>
egg did you all issue the tilted texture of pluto in RSS? float precision ping :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
um, failed to parse: egg is not plural (see reference to "egg" as "you all")
<egg|zzz|egg>
also failed semantic analysis, issue a tilted texture?
<Bornholio>
thats just my southern us dialect leaking out
<Bornholio>
is the RSS texture for pluto still tilted that you know of?
<egg|zzz|egg>
it's not tilted, it's mirrored iirc
<egg|zzz|egg>
but it hasn't been fixed that I know of
<egg|zzz|egg>
just look at it, if it looks like the pic in the bug report it's broken
<Qboid>
[#120] title: Revert the obsolete workaround #112 | The timewarp altitude limit was raised in #112 to work around mockingbirdnest/Principia#1413, which manifested itself in RSS as #111. The latter issue was fixed with the release of Chasles, and, as di... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem/issues/120
<Bornholio>
I'll take a look later today if i can and poke pap
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap Pap Pap Pap Pap Pap
<egg|zzz|egg>
does stratochief have commiting rights to the repo? I'm unsure who's in charge here in the eternal absence of NK
<Bornholio>
i asked himm a while back and he didn't feel that he had been involved enough, maybe he will for you :P
<Bornholio>
him
<egg|zzz|egg>
if we're looking for people who have been involved, awang has been very active
<egg|zzz|egg>
many are tilted correctly but then mirrored
<awang>
I see
<awang>
You just didn't mention that skybox by name, so I wasn't sure if you saw it
<Pap>
You are going to have to poke NK, he is the only one that can elevate people to approve the PR's
<Bornholio>
thought so
<Oneiros>
action stations
<Oneiros>
would Pap know whether his smaller RSS mods work with principia?
<Pap>
Hmmm, there is no reason why they shouldn't
<Pap>
Never tested though
<Oneiros>
judging by the forums, principia seems to enjoy ejecting moons
<Oneiros>
i might have a go soon
<Bornholio>
yes it does
<Bornholio>
eject!
<Oneiros>
hehe
<soundnfury>
Martin-Baker Moon Seat
<egg|zzz|egg>
if you add something shorter-period than Phobos you won't be happy with the results with the default timestep
<egg|zzz|egg>
Bornholio: do you want to do the NKpoking or should I do so
<Bornholio>
you should
<egg|zzz|egg>
okay
<egg|zzz|egg>
whom should I suggest he elevate
<Bornholio>
you :P
<Bornholio>
i'd beg awang aslo
<Oneiros>
a new star is born
<egg|zzz|egg>
yeah awang also has a PR open so I'll call that a nomination :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: would you be interested in reviewing RSS pull requests too?
<ferram4>
Interest or not, I don't trust myself to understand what's going on there.
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: well tbh I don't understand much either
<egg|zzz|egg>
ferram4: but it's not going to move if the pull requests just marinate in a vacuum
<ferram4>
This is true.
<egg|zzz|egg>
maybe lamont_?
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn lamont_
* Qboid
gives lamont_ a caffeinated canonical trapezohedron
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<egg|zzz|egg>
Bornholio: is stratochief already an approver but just reluctant to approve, or not an approver?
<Bornholio>
think he is already
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: you should use your powers, you're as qualified as anyone among those who are still standing...
<Oneiros>
they all want you as the new leader egg
<Oneiros>
these damn github links keep expiring before i can download the rss texture pack.
<soundnfury>
hmm, my station _really_ confuses the crewed duration records contract
<soundnfury>
every time I dock a crew to it, the next one completes immediately :S
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<BadRocketsCo>
Hullo
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: I'm not really standing, I'm just a lurker now :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: yeah but we're better off with a lurker approving things from the shadows than a dead mod
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: approval requires review and testing. I haven't even booted KSP in over 3 months. was sick, then busy. still busy :S
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: eh, it does require review, but if the author is known to be trustworthy and they give me a description of how they've tested I'm happy with that
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: I have my standards for personal approval, which include review and testing. do you have review/merge powers? I can deputize someone, if that is necessary. all I know is that I'm not in a position to merge because I'm not in a position to meet my own standards
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: I don't have any powers, Pap and you do and iirc you're the only ones who still exist. I contacted NK so he adds at least awang
<stratochief>
if you wish for powers, I can grant you powers
<egg|zzz|egg>
oh you have those powers?
<egg|zzz|egg>
(the power to grant power)
<stratochief>
I believe so. which repo are we talking about? RSS?
<egg|zzz|egg>
yeah, though RO has the same issue
<egg|zzz|egg>
accumulating pull requests since august
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: I'll see whether NK replies, if he doesn't grant it to awang, ferram4, and me, hopefully we can get things unstuck
<egg|zzz|egg>
(the above sentence is probably missing a comma)
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<egg|zzz|egg>
so many stratochiefs
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<stratochief>
reset mein router
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<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: testing, I invited you to the RSS team
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: ah, I see that thanks
<stratochief>
feel free to ping or poke me regarding administrative activities like that :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: any objections to merging a bunch of 1.3.1/modern MM compatibility things if they seem to work fine?
<egg|zzz|egg>
(i.e. are there any automated systems that build from head rather than a release)
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: re. administrative actions, maybe at some point I'll try to have you add awang, but I'll try to see whether we can get an 1.3.1-compatible set of pull requests merged
<egg|zzz|egg>
(also principia release this week-end!)
* egg|zzz|egg
pokes stratochief with the moon
* stratochief
feels sexually harassed by egg's moon
<egg|zzz|egg>
Ꙩ_ꙩ
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: my objection would be "well, has it been tested sufficiently in the conditions users will be using it in?"
<stratochief>
your merges are your responsibility :P
<stratochief>
try not to burn everything down on your first day
<egg|zzz|egg>
:D
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: all the golden spreadsheet testing has been with that stuff merged, so it probably has been tested more than is usual
<stratochief>
I think at this point it makes sense to not work on any non 1.3+ releases, there are already plenty of pre-1.3 releases for people to use if they want that.
<egg|zzz|egg>
yeah 1.2.2 work is pointless and harmful
<stratochief>
1.2.2 was the last time I opened up KSP :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
gives more work for the modders who want to support RSS with their latest version (principia) and prevents us from getting the bugfixes of the modders who moved on (FAR)
<stratochief>
congrats! Proton sized launcher, or what?
<BadRocketsCo>
Yup. Pretty much a proton K with blok D
<BadRocketsCo>
About a 4 ton lander
<stratochief>
truly awesome :)
<stratochief>
I've never tried landing and returning anything from the Moon with something smaller than N-1
<stratochief>
is there anything that would stand in the way of starting Methalox development in the 60s/70s ? I mean, hydrogen is much harder to handle and work with, IIRC
<soundnfury>
it doesn't help that the US was in thrall to the religion of "Isp über alles" for a few critical decades
<BadRocketsCo>
Isn't it though?
<soundnfury>
nah, density and "operability" matter too
<soundnfury>
not just for tankage, either — pumps pump (and pipes flow) volume, not mass, so hydrogen-burning engines are necessarily bulkier (and generally heavier as a result)
<soundnfury>
and trying to deal with LH₂ will make you sad and your early J-2s will fail in flight when a pipe resonates and breaks, or something
<BadRocketsCo>
Hmm, good point.
<soundnfury>
I just wish there were something better than kerosene to burn with peroxide
<soundnfury>
Something that doesn't coke
<BadRocketsCo>
I've heard people talk that metholox would be a nice replacement for kerolox
<BadRocketsCo>
You agree?
<stratochief>
methalox is a good middle ground, with some advantages over kerolox for reuseability, but IIRC lower density (so, larger tankage required) and both components cryogenic
<stratochief>
given that the two big new upcoming engines (Raptor, BE-4) are methalox, I would say it has a solid shot at a bright future
<stratochief>
hydrogen engines are expensive, hydrogen handling is much trickier than LOX or liquid methane handling. the RL-10 is a fairly expensive engine, so may not be worth it forever as the 'efficiency uber alles' paradigm might fall away
* soundnfury
agrees with stratochief
<stratochief>
and move towards a cost efficiency, not such an obsession with ISP efficiency
<soundnfury>
though, "both components cryogenic" is actually an _advantage_ over kerolox
<BadRocketsCo>
Surely converting the RL-10 into a methalox engine shouldn't be too difficult
<soundnfury>
it's easier to give your upper stage a long life with low boiloff if your fuel doesn't congeal into a waxy solid like kerosene at LOx temps does :P
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: been done
<soundnfury>
not flown, but they've definitely test-fired it on the stuff
<stratochief>
soundnfury: somewhat, yeah. there is some tradeoff there with having less of a temperature differential, but having to insulate and/or handle a larger volume of two seperate cryogens
<BadRocketsCo>
soundnfury: oh yeah. The CECE config in RO is that, right?
<stratochief>
RL-10 tech could pretty readily be moved to methalox (yeah, CECE IIRC) but then perhaps you have RL-10 prices with methalox efficiency, so worst of two in the tradeoff
<soundnfury>
stratochief: insulating against space is much easier than insulating against another tank. Solids conduct heat!
<soundnfury>
what I want to know is, *why* is the RL-10 expensive? Given how tolerant it is, you'd think it'd be cheap; it's only finicky engines like the SSME that're expensive normally
<soundnfury>
is it just that there's only three folks left who know how to make it and they're paid zillions?
<stratochief>
soundnfury: corporate fat profits maybe? also, part of the result of low production rates/runs
<stratochief>
ProjectThoth was talking about the soviet copy/adaptation of the SSME, makes me drool since it seems so much more tolerant and easy to manufacture
<soundnfury>
imo what space needs right now is a cheap short-alkane (n=0 to 3) expander-cycle engine.
<soundnfury>
If you designed something roughly RL-10-like, but designed for cost rather than best performance, you'd have the engine every upper stage needs :P
<stratochief>
not sure which chemicals fall into your window.
<soundnfury>
hydrogen, methane, ethane, propane. n = 0 to 3 ;)
<stratochief>
alright, gotcha. throwing alkane onto it tripped me up. I was confused why you included hydrogen, so I figured I'd ask
<stratochief>
there might be another round or two of engine development like that, but I kinda doubt it in the current international politial and vertically integrated corporate environment
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: yeah I just ping on round
<stratochief>
depends on how many players show up, and/or what demand is there
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: lol. gotcha.
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: I ping on a lot of weird stuff
<egg|zzz|egg>
sometimes shortlinks ping me if they start with rk4
<egg|zzz|egg>
nah even with just rk
NathanKell|AFK is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<egg|zzz|egg>
oh, I woke the NK?
<stratochief>
\o
<BadRocketsCo>
Whaaaat
<NathanKell>
egg|zzz|egg: Told snf last night that I hoped to be on today
<NathanKell>
so you have good timing :)
<BadRocketsCo>
He liveeeees!
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<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: snf?
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: soundnfury I assume
<soundnfury>
o/
<NathanKell>
Indeed
* NathanKell
has the laziest fingers
<soundnfury>
all glory to the hypnokell
<NathanKell>
To be clear & public, I am 100% fine with merging and releasing things. Please don't feel you have to wait on me, and apologies for being so unpresent
<stratochief>
NathanKell: your bleeding heart politics are surely getting in the way. you must allow the weakest fingers fail, and reward the strongest!
<NathanKell>
I don't live in Kentucky, pal.
<stratochief>
:)
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I think you're the only one who really understands the flightschool stuff, so can you look at https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/787 and see if the guy's right about how to fix it?
<Qboid>
[#787] title: RP-0 developmental - Cannot train for new mission | Basic rundown of training issue I'm experiencing with RP-1dev (latest all+dependencies)... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/787
<NathanKell>
Sure thing!
<stratochief>
I'm also very absent. ETA on having free time is 2-3 months. got sick, changed jobs, and am working on wrapping up a different volunteer project about electricity/energy policy
<NathanKell>
OUCH. It's been so long github signed me out <blush>
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: hm, stratochief gave me commit rights to RSS but apparently not RO? or am I confused
<egg|zzz|egg>
I might be confused
* stratochief
adds new weapon to the box of tools he is not smart enough to RTFM on
<egg|zzz|egg>
I'm good at being confused
<NathanKell>
soundnfury before I start digging into that, do you know if RP1 has moved to 1.3? Or any outstanding PRs I should merge before tackling that issue?
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: it vas a test (of tech, and of your madness) I'll leave the provisioning of further powers for today up to others like NK
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I believe it's still on 1.2.2, that's what I've been doing builds for / using it with
<NathanKell>
ok
<soundnfury>
but egg was talking about pushing towards 1.3
<NathanKell>
stratochief, egg, yeah, lemme fix that
<egg|zzz|egg>
(building Principia Clifford right now, will get right back to R(SS|O) stuff right after that)
<NathanKell>
there, perm'd
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: can't remember, did I tell you about _my_ lunar sample return mission?
<BadRocketsCo>
soundnfury: nope!
<BadRocketsCo>
But I am incrediblt curious now :P
<soundnfury>
flew 3 (iirc) storable tankers to lunar orbit atop (essentially) Atlas-Centaur, lander went on another, refuelled in lunar orbit, landed, ascent stage refuelled in lunar orbit again, TEI, braked into slightly elliptical Earth orbit,
<soundnfury>
... sent up another tanker (Thor-Delta) to bring it down to LEO, then fetched it back to Earth with a Napier spaceplane
<soundnfury>
Five launches, LOR-LOR-LOR-EOR mission mode ;)
<KevinStarwaster>
omg
<KevinStarwaster>
suddenly, a NathanKell appears!
<BadRocketsCo>
soundnfury: that sounds pretty complicated but really cool :)
<KevinStarwaster>
so NathanKell have you lost the ability to count to 3 yet?
<soundnfury>
good practice for using similar methods for manned flights later.
<BadRocketsCo>
Hmm, true
<soundnfury>
I'm roleplaying a "can't put people in capsules, far too dangerous" timeline :)
<soundnfury>
and yes, it *is* complicated. Lotta rendezvousing and docking
<BadRocketsCo>
Oh, nice
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<NathanKell>
KevinStarwaster: Judging by RO releases I can't even count to *point* 3
<NathanKell>
soundnfury that sounds epic!
<BadRocketsCo>
So you're focusing on spaceplanes for LEO missions?
<KevinStarwaster>
maybe just having a 3 in it is bad enough
<NathanKell>
Explains everything
<KevinStarwaster>
OMG that's it! That's the solution... I have solved the problem of the Halflife sequel... just skip to 4
<KevinStarwaster>
and L4D4
<KevinStarwaster>
Ima freakin genius
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: yeah, I've got two spaceplanes which have between them done 14 flights :)
<BadRocketsCo>
Awesome!
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: I feel like I should call this game "Eyes Turned Earthwards" xD
<BadRocketsCo>
soundnfury: And you manage to land your stuff at the runway?
<soundnfury>
nope
<soundnfury>
it has to have a parachute, it's not controllable below about 120m/s
<soundnfury>
I landed it outside the Tracking Station once though ^_^
<BadRocketsCo>
Oh, nice
<BadRocketsCo>
I personaly will now try to focus on more near-earth manned stuff
<wb99999999>
allo everyone
<Qboid>
wb99999999: Bornholio left a message for you in #RO [13.01.2018 12:45:47]: "rd108 is broke in dev"
<Qboid>
wb99999999: Bornholio left a message for you in #RO [13.01.2018 12:47:24]: "I have a fix, that i think is still broken in a pr, that includes my nukes that got broken at the same time as the rd108"
<BadRocketsCo>
Mostly because I can't figure out a proper working Mars mission, heh
<wb99999999>
oh, okay...
<wb99999999>
of course...a bracket broke the config
<BadRocketsCo>
I can't even get a proper subsonic aircraft to fly, much less a full-on spaceplane :D
<soundnfury>
nor can I, usually; this was a fluke I think
<BadRocketsCo>
Oh, heh
<BadRocketsCo>
Anyway, sleepy time for me
<BadRocketsCo>
Buh-bye
<soundnfury>
nn then
<wb99999999>
I think a 0-AOA phase during the initial ascent should be in the RO tutorial
<wb99999999>
it's so useful that once I got use to it I can't live without it
<wb99999999>
especially helpful to pass through max Q
<NathanKell>
o/ BadRocketsCo`
* xShadowx
thinks he should play ksp again since nothing else looks fun
<xShadowx>
i forget, jupiter had no surface to accually land on did it?
<xShadowx>
(in ksp)
<xShadowx>
kinda feel like a jupter colony :P
<soundnfury>
xShadowx: jupiter has some moons you could colonise
<soundnfury>
("except Europa", of course)
<xShadowx>
but i want to go into the atmosphere ;3
<soundnfury>
There are some balloon mods?
<xShadowx>
ooo
<soundnfury>
cloud cities suit you?
<egg|zzz|egg>
(currently at the "have a cup of coffee" stage of the build)
<stratochief>
xShadowx: you'd need an engine with an absolutely crazy chamber pressure to take off from Jupiter, or even Venus. IMO, seeing if you can get balloons to work would make Venus or Jupiter visits worthwhile
<xShadowx>
stratochief: i never said anything about going back up........
<xShadowx>
think australia ;p
<stratochief>
surely there are more cost effective ways to deal with convicts than send them to Jupiter :P
<JPLRepo>
I resemble that/
<stratochief>
:)
<NathanKell>
Yeah, but Jupiter only *passively* tries to kill you.
<soundnfury>
xD
<stratochief>
NathanKell: as far as we know now. Sagan suggested some life forms that might thrive in Jupiter's atmosphere.
<stratochief>
Who knows, maybe Jupiter is truly space-australia
<NathanKell>
:D
* xShadowx
puts stratochief in a rocket and launches it to jupiter
<xShadowx>
find out for us! :D
<stratochief>
I'm curious what crime I committed to get Australia'd, but I won't say no to a free rocket journey
<xShadowx>
you're canadian and polluted out country with asmoke last summer, good enough :P
<stratochief>
hmm. So I'm being charged with Tree-son, just for being a Canuck?
<NathanKell>
Ahahahaha!
<xShadowx>
egg-sacktly
<NathanKell>
That's, like, 5/7 eggs on the egg scale of puns.
<xShadowx>
whatd mine get?;p
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<stratochief>
xShadowx: well, mine didn't cause anybody to leave the room, so I think you also did well :)
<soundnfury>
(although, apparently hulu's only available in the US and Japan, so I'll have to hope someone pirates it)
<xShadowx>
soundnfury: or use a proxy or config browser to not tell region or or or
<xShadowx>
list goes on :P
<soundnfury>
well quite
<soundnfury>
but the point is, however it's done it won't be entirely above board
<soundnfury>
which is a shame, because if they make anywhere near as good a job of it as the original series then shut up and take my money
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: Also apparently the original team aren't involved at all, despite them wanting to be? :(
<xShadowx>
thats saddening
<NathanKell>
My fingers remain crossed however
<NathanKell>
muh childhood
<xShadowx>
animaniacs was great :)
<xShadowx>
i miss WB cartoons, the new ones in 3d are just too aimed-at-2-year-olds
<soundnfury>
whereas animaniacs wasn't aimed at children at _all_ :)
<xShadowx>
uh sure it was
<xShadowx>
entire family range
<soundnfury>
when I was young I found it banal, because the cheap jokes and slapstick were beneath me, and I didn't yet know what "Goodnight everybody!" signified ;)
<xShadowx>
thats you, plenty of other kids liked em
<soundnfury>
fair enough heh
<xShadowx>
i also miss loony tunes
<xShadowx>
i was sad when disney and WB gave up their 2d animation departments
<xShadowx>
the other 2d i liked that wasnt them was simpsons
<xShadowx>
other 2d stuff, just...i dunno.....the arttyle seems so ugly to me
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<Bornholio>
soundnfury hooligan labs, both venus and jupiter, but Juno's gravity well will eat even insane builds with no sign of getting out.
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<xShadowx>
hmm jupiter atmo is thick, wonder how well a plane would do
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: I think he said he didn't want to _leave_ again