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<Starwaster> lamont: here's FinalizeOrbit() in Kopernicus. If the field is set for the moon then its orbital velocity takes into account both bodies masses. It's changing the orbit parameters so MJ should be able to calculate the transfer anyway if all it's doing is reading that same data
<stratochief> is anyone aware of development papers, back when they were deciding on this version of Atlas V?
<stratochief> I'm curious what other alteratives they considered using, etc.
<Bornholio> probably a dtic.mil paper
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<wb99999999> I have a thought
<wb99999999> after switching to RD-180s were the tank loading strength on the atlas booster approaching the limit?
<Bornholio> no since it was designed for triple mains
<ProjectThoth> The tanks are a little heavier than the ideal, iirc, because of that.
<Bornholio> side mount space and wall strength is a concern though. It could do something like the ESA solid if a good mount was used
<stratochief> Bornholio: thanks!
<stratochief> mmm. ESA solids. that'd be an interesting addition
<stratochief> Atlas V heavy, +2 ESA solds. Arianne core stage as the upper (nozzle extension added)
<Bornholio> stratochief look for something like " space launch modernization study" or similar in the mid 90's
<Bornholio> so basicly nothing US in it :P
<stratochief> lol. well, if the US wants to try and develop a J-2S or other heavy methalox or hydrolox upper stage, shrug
<Bornholio> what no 465isp davinci?
<stratochief> the US strength has always been integration and launch services, testing, etc.
* UmbralRaptor stares at the RL60 and SSME, then presses F.
<stratochief> Bornholio: is that an actual engine? like, flown, used, ?
<Bornholio> lol, then RL-10's it is :)
<stratochief> UmbralRaptor: SSME is a very expensive engine to make. RL60 is paper
<UmbralRaptor> stratochief: I thought that the RL60 got cancelled after it had been tested successfully. >_>;;
<stratochief> UmbralRaptor: maybe a component or two, which is better than just being paper. but didn't they also test some components of J2-X and/or F-1B ?
<UmbralRaptor> But, yeah. The cost side of the SSME is disappointing.
<stratochief> the russians have a cheaper version of the SSME. the US could try and make something similar, but the russians may out-compete them
<stratochief> are the ESA solids the largest solids ever used / used as boosters?
<stratochief> wait, derp. shuttle boosters are also huge
<UmbralRaptor> Not sure on J-2X, I think F-1B fired a gas generator?
<Bornholio> continue derpin'
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<soundnfury> stratochief: they also tested some components of M-1 :P
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<Bornholio> welcome back qboid
<Oneiros> hi Qboid
<Oneiros> oh. you need a welcome script don't you
* Oneiros pets Qboid
<UmbralRaptor> !wpn
* Qboid gives UmbralRaptor a Bekenstein katar
<UmbralRaptor> Uh oh
<egg|zzz|egg> stratochief: I think the vega first stage is the largest single-segment though
<ProjectThoth> Whoops, I've missed another rendezvous. >_<
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<Oneiros> this mod is very complex
<Bornholio> yes
<Bornholio> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170005531.pdf ntr testing this year is heating up (pun intended0
<Starwaster> oh? for real?
<Bornholio> bwxt has a LEU fuel contract for it over three years.
<Bornholio> hope they build the test stand soon
<Starwaster> so are we finally going to get serious about this?
<Bornholio> yes serious like say 1969
<Starwaster> I don't see Stan Borowski's name on there anywhere
<Starwaster> he's been a leading proponent of NTR technology forever
<Bornholio> .shrug
<stratochief> Bornholio: yeah, US does some strange R&D, then just throw it away
<Bornholio> well i still think the Lox injection crowd helped zero. nevermind i can't verify their math, not that i'm the expert, but it only adds 40MW to a 500mw engine, i call BS for the Thrust number tripling
<Oneiros> i think ill work on a beginners guide to making the transition to RO
<Oneiros> maybe starting with just RSS and FAR
<stratochief> only a 25 page paper? that's not serious :P
<Bornholio> its a pretty minor topic in all
<Bornholio> plus you need a background in metalurgy like me to understand what half the article is saying
<Bornholio> also need to know that previously densityies of 60% were impressive and they are hitting 95%+
<Oneiros> is that a good minimum do u think? to start by adjusting to the massive scale increase, and getting to orbit and surviving re-entry, still can be done on stock parts
<Bornholio> i'd say for RSS the min is adding SMURFF or x2ISP mods
<Bornholio> Real Fuels is the next big hop
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<NathanKell> o/
Rokker is now known as UgandanKnuckles
<Oneiros> which ones are they
<Oneiros> hi NathanKell
<Oneiros> i didnt have too much trouble getting to orbit in RSS with just stock parts on sandbox mode
<Oneiros> all the new things added by RO can be overwhelming so maybe best to start with the bare minimum, which already provides a challenge - for some people, a really big challenge
<awang> Oneiros: How big of a rocket do you need with stock stats to get to orbit?
<Oneiros> nothing too ridiculous
<Oneiros> for the tiniest payload (probe core, battery, solar panels), a few tanks and a spark engine upper stage, next stage was the largest 1.25m tank and a swivel engine, then a lower stage of some 2.5 tanks and a mainsail
<Oneiros> that had a bit over 10k km/s dV
<awang> Sounds more or less like Sputnik
<Starwaster> bornholio the LOX increases exhaust mass and combusts in the nozzle. It's sound enough
<Oneiros> that would be a great way to start haha
<taniwha> Bornholio: tripling thrust is quite reasonable if Isp is cut significantly
<Oneiros> should be able to just scale everything up to the next size diameter to allow a 1.25m pod payload, hopefully
<Bornholio> yeah not enough, not less than half, unless magically its above stochiometrric temp for combustion
<awang> Oh, right, you're in sandbox
<awang> I've been in RP-0 mode for too long >_>
<lamont> Starwaster: not Kopernicus, I replicated in stock-stock with no mods other than MJ
<Starwaster> hmmm
<awang> I'd imagine career would be impossible with RSS/FAR
<Oneiros> ya. career would need a new tech tree. but this is just for a slow adjustment to RO, introducing one new challenge at a time
<Oneiros> yup i'd say so
<awang> Are you planning on eventually getting to RP-0/RP-1?
<awang> Or stopping at RO?
<Oneiros> yes, that is the end-goal
<Starwaster> I don't think I've had a problem in stock with transfers lamont
<Oneiros> but it all looks very complicated and will take time to adjust, its basically a new game, and a deep one
<Oneiros> from what i can tell anyway
<Oneiros> maybe if you have an engineering degree and some knowledge of rocketry its ok, but im just an enthusiast
<awang> Oneiros: Yeah, I'd agree
<Starwaster> bornholio, 2700K should be more than enough for ignition. You only need about ~500K
<Oneiros> k cool. i'll work on this guide to follow my own progress in adjusting, and then see if you guys like it and think it would help
<Oneiros> im sure there are plenty of enthusiasts like me around who would love to learn more by playing RO, but can't handle all the information at once haha
<lamont> there’s some edge conditions, particularly some transfers to moho with the new button to include a capture burn — and the new code shouldn’t miss by as much as it does sometimes
<lamont> (the old code always missed by a lot)
<lamont> people have reported planning-transfer-out-of-jool bugs as well, which makes sense due to the potential for interactions
<awang> Oneiros: There's always the tried-and-true Kerbal way
<awang> Throw something together and see what happens
<Oneiros> one thing i didnt understand was that space starts at 140km altitude, but the karman line is 100km and ferram's guide said that drag stops around there too
<Oneiros> lol true
<Starwaster> well it doesnt STOP but it becomes a lot less significant for KSP / RO purposes
<Oneiros> ok
<awang> Oneiros: IIRC it's supposed to be the point where you get 1 Pascal of pressure at interplanetary reentry speeds
<Starwaster> to be more precise, we could model the atmosphere much further than we do but then you can't go above phys timewarp and the amount of drag is so negligible that it's not worth it
<Oneiros> yeah, the physics timewarp and ships disappearing in atmo are the limitations
<Starwaster> even the ISS has drag but if we made an atmosphere curve for that, nobody would be happy because they can't warp
<lamont> there’s “drag” and there’s “drag”
<Oneiros> ya for sure
<awang> At least until egg implements orbital decay in Principia
<Starwaster> actually, the very early RSS did have an atmosphere table that went pretty high. I can't remember how high I actually put it before Nathan capped it at 1pa
<egg|phone|egg> Meow
<lamont> 110km drag is negligible for a rocket trying to punch through it
<Starwaster> 1pa was considered a good stopping point
<lamont> 110km drag is sufficient to deorbit a satellite in less than a revolution
<Oneiros> hm
<Starwaster> try it, it's fun
<awang> Wikipedia says that 150km is the altitude at which you can make it around at least once
<Oneiros> oh wow ok
<Oneiros> the ksp system is very unrealistic
<awang> How so?
<awang> Besides the Jool system being unstable
<awang> And everything being stupidly dense
<Bornholio> osmium dense
<Oneiros> well once you reach X altitude you can orbit forever
<Oneiros> i think you need a third zone in between the two
<egg|phone|egg> Retrobop ftw
<Oneiros> instead of calculating drag just force a certain amount of orbital decay, or something
<lamont> there’s the OrbitalDecay mod which does that
<awang> Isn't it dead?
<lamont> i think so
<Oneiros> but it doesnt work with principia right?
<awang> There's also Principia (eventually)
<awang> Probably not
<awang> Cheat menu and HyperEdit don't work with Principia, so I wouldn't expect OrbitalDecay to be different
<lamont> the problem of purturbing orbits in Principia is complicated
<Oneiros> haha ok
<Oneiros> i love principia
<egg|phone|egg> Purrtubing
<UmbralRaptor> …did ANBOcat steal egg's phone?
<Oneiros> what sort of altitude do you need to minimise decay to the point where it's almost negligible? in reality
<Bornholio> here kittah
<Bornholio> 600km
<Bornholio> hubbleish
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> How long would it take for Hubble to decay, anyways?
<egg|phone|egg> UmbralRaptor: egg is not at ANBO at the moment
<Oneiros> ok. so you'd have stock atmosphere system 0-100km, modded midzone with simulated decay 100-600km, and stock space system 600km+
<Oneiros> or something like that
<awang> Or just Principia for literally everything
<Oneiros> haha ok ya
* egg|phone|egg purrs
<awang> egg|phone|egg: How's the in-atmo stuff coming along?
* egg|phone|egg hides under a bed
<Oneiros> people like to feel something when hitting space too. i like how the music kicks in in stock
<awang> Oneiros: Does a physics jerk count?
<Oneiros> very cool pic :D
<awang> Or scatterer jerk
<Oneiros> what do u mean by jerk
<Oneiros> a screenshake?
<awang> At least last time I KSP'd there'd be a brief pause and graphical artifacts (color changes, etc.) when passing the 140km threshold
<Oneiros> oh ya, it's noticeable
<awang> Yeah, and the planet sometimes moves a bit, like the camera briefly tried to go another way
<UmbralRaptor> \frac{d^3 q}{dt^3}
<awang> egg|phone|egg: I should probably get that engine selection thing working for the flight planner
<Oneiros> ya
<egg|phone|egg> Awang : it's complicated
<Oneiros> if i could code i'd offer to help u guys
<awang> Oneiros: You could playtest and tell me how bad my UX decisions are :P
<awang> egg|phone|egg: The serialization part?
<Oneiros> ok sounds good
<egg|phone|egg> We'd need to discuss the design of that in the Ç++ and I should sleep
<awang> Oh right, persisting means C++
<Oneiros> food and sleep are very important
* awang pulls out the Rust strike team talking points
<awang> egg|phone|egg: Got any requests to rewrite in Rust yet?
<Starwaster> I've been playing and modding KSP for how many years now? And I can't remember that MM is case sensitive? FFS Starwaster...
<Oneiros> ok just tell me when u need stuff tested awang
<awang> Oneiros: I actually have an alpha prototype working
<awang> I think it's a C# change only
<Oneiros> nice. whats your mod
<awang> It's a change to Principia
<egg|phone|egg> Awang: wait what
<Bornholio> lol
<Bornholio> rust .smirk
<egg|phone|egg> How do you have something working without persistence
<awang> That's why I'm calling it an alpha prototype
<awang> At least as far as I can tell, the calculations are right
<egg|phone|egg> Ah
<awang> You just need to reselect things
<Oneiros> ooh
<wb99999999> trying to make a 1.5 stage lifter for my sandbox Venus probe
<wb99999999> the payload capacity is a little...underwhelming
<awang> Oneiros: Do you play with Principia
<wb99999999> oh where is the 1.5 stage advocate now...
<Oneiros> ya, always
<Oneiros> i like when it perturbs my orbits. stock ones are so boring
<Oneiros> what does your mod change
<awang> Awesome
<Oneiros> or your work on principia
<awang> It just adds the ability to select what engines you use for a burn
<awang> Without having to activate them
<wb99999999> Principia is sweet, but it dunk my framerate after a while...
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<Oneiros> oh in maneuver planning?
<awang> Yeah
<Oneiros> nice
<awang> So you can properly plan for solids now
<awang> Or situations where you don't want all your engines burning, for whatever reason
<egg|phone|egg> So much pinging :-p
<Oneiros> i havent event gotten that far with principia yet, but it sounds very useful
<Bornholio> float
<egg|phone|egg> Meow
<Oneiros> excellent
<wb99999999> float again?
<Bornholio> float pings eggs
<egg|phone|egg> ...
<awang> So does Principia
<egg|phone|egg> Zzz
<Oneiros> u have principia on highlight egg? lol
<awang> Just replace the .dlls in GameData/Principia
<egg|phone|egg> Also float double integrate round rk and other things
<Oneiros> ok ty, i'll work towards trying it
<Oneiros> wow lol
<awang> No need to rush
<awang> Still got a lot of back-end work, apparently
<awang> Strongly type ALL the things!
<Oneiros> ok. once i survive re-entry and can orbit with enough dV to perform a maneuever, ill try it :P
<wb99999999> so born
<awang> You're going for re-entry before things that require a maneuver after getting to orbit?
<awang> o_O
<awang> Then again, I'm in RP-0 mode...
<awang> Still haven't unlocked heat shields
<Oneiros> ya i only just made my first RSS orbit
<awang> Oh right, you're also using stock rockets
<Bornholio> yes 9's
<awang> That's going to make larger payloads fun
<awang> Asparagus stage everything
<Oneiros> haha
<Oneiros> see if its even possible to send apollo modules to the moon
<awang> For some definition of "possible", yes
<awang> You might need HangarExtender though
<awang> Saturn V doesn't even fit in the VAB
<awang> Or at least the FASA version doesn't
<Oneiros> lol ok
<wb99999999> you know about NTRs, so can you think of a way so a single nuclear powerplant could support A LOT of high power RCS thrusters?
<Bornholio> thats SEP
<wb99999999> SEP?
<Qboid> wb99999999: [SEP] => Société Européenne de Propulsion
<wb99999999> don't think so XD
<Bornholio> its let me dig up a relavent article
<Oneiros> brb
<wb99999999> honestly I was thinking about Anime Mechas, Gundam and the like
<wb99999999> they all have massive clusters of attitude control thrusters, but seems have nothing but nuclear powerplant and some generic fuels
<Bornholio> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=20170003378&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial NEP is taking SEP and using a nuke instead of solar see page 5ish
<UmbralRaptor> The people who maintain Qboid's acronym lists are silly.
<Bornholio> If you drop the ISP to get better thrust then its almost reasonable
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<Bornholio> TWR's are redonculously low
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<Starwaster> Did Saturn's LES pull it off to the side, up or under the stack?
<Starwaster> hmmm fun with Qboid
<Starwaster> Qboid?
<Starwaster> hmm doesnt answer
<Starwaster> I thought it might
Oneiros_ is now known as Oneiros
<awang> !acr -update:SEP Société Européenne de Propulsion or Solar Electric Propulsion
<Qboid> awang: I updated the explanation for SEP
<awang> NEP?
<awang> ...
<Bornholio> Nuclear EP
<awang> !acr -add:NET Nuclear Electric Propulsion
<Qboid> awang: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -add:NEP Nuclear Electric Propulsion
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<awang> !acr -remove:NET
<Qboid> awang: I removed the explanation for NET
<UmbralRaptor> Race condition?
<UmbralRaptor> oh
<awang> I typo'd anyways
<Bornholio> NET?
<Oneiros> Hi?
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -add:NET No Earlier Than
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<Bornholio> SLS?
<awang> Hmmm
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -list
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I will send you a list of my acronyms!
<Bornholio> NLS?
<awang> !acr -add:NET Nuclear Electric Propulsion
<Qboid> awang: I already know an explanation for NET! (Update it with !acr -update:NET Nuclear Electric Propulsion)
<Oneiros> !acr -add:Hi Hello
<Qboid> Oneiros: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<awang> Ah, ok, so I didn't overwrite anything with NET
<Oneiros> Hi?
<Qboid> Oneiros: [Hi] => Hello
<Oneiros> excellent
<awang> LES?
<awang> ...
<awang> !acr -add:LES Launch Escape System
<Qboid> awang: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<wb99999999> I can hear the sadness miles away
<wb99999999> let's see
<awang> Sadness?
<wb99999999> DCSS?
<wb99999999> oh man really
<Bornholio> do a list request
<wb99999999> lel
<wb99999999> yes
<awang> !acr -list
<Qboid> awang: I will send you a list of my acronyms!
<Oneiros> !acr -list
<Qboid> Oneiros: I will send you a list of my acronyms!
<awang> lol
<awang> KSP?
<Qboid> awang: [KSP] => Bad Game.
<Oneiros> hahaha
<Bornholio> KSP = drug
<awang> Uh
<awang> UML?
<Qboid> awang: [UML] => Usermode Linux
<awang> Definitely not what I thought of first when I saw UML
<UmbralRaptor> MaDCoWS?
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: [MaDCoWS] => Massive and Distant Clusters of WISE Survey
<wb99999999> what if I make that 1.5 stage vehicle with a hydrolox sustainer but kerolox booster engienes...
<awang> !acr -update:UML Usermode Linux or Unified Modeling Language
<Qboid> awang: I updated the explanation for UML
<Oneiros> MILF?
<UmbralRaptor> Oneiros: no
<awang> wb99999999: You'd have SLS if F1-B got selected?
<Starwaster> WTF?
* Oneiros pets naive little Qboid
<Bornholio> .facePalm
<Oneiros> dont want to corrupt him
<Starwaster> DRE?
<wb99999999> no, I mean 1.5 stage
<Starwaster> oh NOT cool
<Bornholio> you resolve that
<awang> !acr -update:ARM Ada Reference Manual, or Asteroid Redirect Mission, or Advanced RISC Machine.
<Qboid> awang: I updated the explanation for ARM
<wb99999999> a single stick containing hydrogen, kerosene and LOX tanks
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -add:CPS California Planet Survey
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I already know an explanation for CPS! (Update it with !acr -update:CPS California Planet Survey)
<awang> Oh right, Atlas-style, right?
<wb99999999> yeah
<UmbralRaptor> WASP?
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: [WASP] => Wide Angle Survey for Planets
<UmbralRaptor> TRES?
<awang> Heh
<awang> Troubleshooting?
<Qboid> awang: [Troubleshooting] => Have you tried turning it off and back on?
<Starwaster> TWR?
<wb99999999> it's pretty easy to make in KSP, but I wonder if it was to be made IRL where should the LH2 tank be
<Starwaster> PEBCAK?
<Bornholio> PEBKAC?
<Qboid> Bornholio: [PEBKAC] => Problem exists between Keyboard and Chair
<awang> !acr -add:PEBCAK Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard
<Qboid> awang: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<wb99999999> now this is unhelpful...
<awang> laser?
<Qboid> awang: [laser] => Legal Amusement for Students, Engineers, and Researchers
<awang> That's new
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -add:TRES Trans-Atlantic Exoplanet Survey / Tillinghast Reflector Echelle Spectrograph
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<UmbralRaptor> LASER?
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: [LASER] => Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation
<awang> ...
<UmbralRaptor> Qboid is case sensitive.
<awang> !acr -update:NRO Non-Rotating Origin or National Reconnaissance Office
<Qboid> awang: I updated the explanation for NRO
<awang> Apparently
<awang> Why both upper- and lower-case laser, I wonder
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -add:TrES Trans-Atlantic Exoplanet Survey
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I already know an explanation for TrES! (Update it with !acr -update:TrES Trans-Atlantic Exoplanet Survey)
<wb99999999> instinctively the hydrogen tank should be close to the base of the rocket...
<awang> MIPS?
<Qboid> awang: [MIPS] => Multiband Imaging Photometer for Spitzer
<wb99999999> but then that means running kerosene valve all the way down for the boosters
UgandanKnuckles is now known as Rokker
<awang> !acr -update:MIPS Multiband Imaging Photometer for Spitzer or Microprocessor without Interlocked Pipeline Stages
<Qboid> awang: I updated the explanation for MIPS
<awang> !acr -update:ML Machine Learning or Meta Language
<Qboid> awang: I updated the explanation for ML
<awang> eclipse?
<Qboid> awang: [eclipse] => The end times are nigh! Repent before the night comes.
<awang> Uh
<awang> hitler?
<Qboid> awang: [hitler] => jan64 is gay
<awang> NASA?
<Qboid> awang: [NASA] => I forget. Expanderbot help me out here?
<UmbralRaptor> …
<UmbralRaptor> !
<UmbralRaptor> !
<UmbralRaptor> …
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -remove hitler
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: This key is not registered!
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -remove NASA
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: This key is not registered!
<UmbralRaptor> IC?
<UmbralRaptor> !acr -add:IC Index Catalog
<Qboid> UmbralRaptor: I added the explanation for this acronym.
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<Starwaster> wow I forgot how often and how early stock KSP likes to throw tourist contracts at you
<Starwaster> screw all this science shit
<Starwaster> I made a cheap and scalable tourist solution for them. Mk1 pod + small SRB + decoupler. Cluster as needed for more tourists. Add one probe core or MJ AR202 and toss them onto a sub orbital arc. Jettison and arm the chutes, turn them all retrograde and instant monies! and rep!
<ProjectThoth> Theory question - you know how three-core vehicles are popular, but an engineering nightmare?
<ProjectThoth> Would it not be more structurally sound to tie them together into a triangle?
<stratochief> ProjectThoth: 3 failing attachment points instead of 2? which two stages run dry first, and does the thrust vector to go through the CoM during assymetric throttle back?
<ProjectThoth> stratochief: Run them at the same time?
<ProjectThoth> They'd go downrange a bit farther, but eh.
<stratochief> a good chunk of the value of 3 cores with to side boosters is that you run them assymetrically
<stratochief> so less energy is wasted propelling those dry stages
<ProjectThoth> Attempting to find the picture I have in mind here...
<ProjectThoth> (shoulda bookmarked it)
<stratochief> ProjectThoth: 3 attachment points, triangle?
<ProjectThoth> stratochief: It's loosely based off of a cobbled-together HLV proposal I found a couple months ago.
<Oneiros> Starwaster: are you doing RSS with stock parts?
<stratochief> eww. is that 3 atlas cores?
<stratochief> ye olde atlas
<Oneiros> awang: using smurff to change stock engines and fuel tanks to more realistic values, orbit can be achieved using just a few more fuel tanks than stock
<Oneiros> stock career might even be playable with smurff + RSS
<wb99999999> well look who's here
<wb99999999> 1.5 stage advocate is back!
<wb99999999> ProjectThoth: I've been building a 1.5 stage LV for a Venus probe
<wb99999999> it's pretty good but the payload capacity is a little low
<stratochief> wb99999999: like, a ground-lit engine flies near venus?
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Sounds about right.
<wb99999999> XD
<stratochief> wb99999999: that'd be nearly as crazy as throwing your car at Mars
<wb99999999> what
<wb99999999> that Tesla roadster is going to Mars?
<wb99999999> I thought it's going to some nowhere in deep space
<stratochief> if everything goes swimmingly, it'll be at mars' distance from the sun
<Bornholio> mars solar orbit, not to mars
<Oneiros> how do you have half a stage
<Bornholio> love how the media willfully blast that its going to mars
<Oneiros> whaaat
<wb99999999> basically a half stage is when you throw away only the engine and structures, but not tanks
<wb99999999> aka, Atlas D
<stratochief> Oneiros: look at the Atlas LV from murica
<Oneiros> ah ok, ty
<Oneiros> and i thought the teslta was going to mars orbit
<Oneiros> *telsa
<Oneiros> ugh, *tesla
<wb99999999> half stage is really only practical with RO because tanks can get sufficiently light
<wb99999999> stock tanks are way to damn heavy
<stratochief> naw, even for a near flyby it would have to occur at a very specific launch window time that occurs once every ~2 years.
<Oneiros> far out
<Bornholio> plus planetary protection office would have a freakout
<wb99999999> but would the first launch be landing any boosters?
<Bornholio> yes
<Oneiros> so he's just testing that the heavy has enough dV to get there
<Oneiros> lame. i think the media did lie.
<stratochief> Oneiros: nah, the test launch is to test the whole setup, blast off, recovery, all that jazz. lots of moving parts that've never been tested in practice
<Oneiros> ya true, i shouldn't oversimplify
<wb99999999> it needed a launch to prove itself anyway
<wb99999999> that roadster is just a publicity stunt
<stratochief> media oversimplifies, because the avg person barely knows mars is a planety
<wb99999999> okay back to that rocket I've made...
<stratochief> wb99999999: right. so, ground lit engine flies by mars?
<stratochief> *venus?
<wb99999999> Orz no?
<stratochief> ahh, so 1.5 stage to orbit, then
<Starwaster> Oneiros not all stock, no. And it's 10x Kerbol (scaled up 10x). I've got some KWR parts, some SSTU parts and I patch cloned some of the 5m KWR parts to 10m
<wb99999999> it's like that 1.5 stage Saturn thing
<wb99999999> except much, much smaller
<Starwaster> scaled up 5m Titan V to 10m Titan X (for the Saturn V SII) and also made MEC to re-configure it as the Ares V core engines x5
<Oneiros> ok nice
<Oneiros> are you using the smurff mod?
<Starwaster> no
<Starwaster> what does that do, turn kerbals blue?
<Oneiros> lol it gives engines and tanks more realistic stats
<Oneiros> *stock engines and tanks i mean
<Starwaster> that's what RF does
<Bornholio> tank mass fractions
<Starwaster> I was just kidding, I know about smurff. don't need it
<Oneiros> ok i will investigate this RF
<Starwaster> RF + some of (but not all of) RO
<Starwaster> get ready for boiloff
<Starwaster> and not the fake boiloff that some of the other mods do.... based on actual heat penetration into your tanks
<Starwaster> Three tourist suborbital launch.... https://imgur.com/a/BytmU
<wb99999999> ...
<wb99999999> I would cancel the contract the moment I see the LV...
<Starwaster> not allowed, we shackled them into the pod!
<Starwaster> no turning back baby!
<Oneiros> lol
<wb99999999> this one kinda...works?
<wb99999999> the booster is not quite enough to orbit the thing anyway so I stretched the Centaur and have it insert me into orbit
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<Starwaster> it's kind of cool to watch my first stage actually catch fire as the exhaust of the second stage plays over it
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<Oneiros> nice
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<Bornholio> egg drop the beat, cell cell phone cell phone cell phone phone cell cell phone
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<awang> Wonder what it would take to have RemoteTech antennas take their actual orientation into account
<awang> Probably better autopilot/programming system at least
<Bornholio> there is actual work on that
<Bornholio> but remote tech is already cpu heavy
<awang> Oh, really?
<awang> I had no idea
<awang> What part eats the most CPU?
<Bornholio> any part with a conic adds quite a bit to the load, omnis all add together as one spherical distance per craft. plus with RSs we have lots of ground stations to link too
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<awang> Huh
<awang> I had no idea it was that expensive
<Bornholio> calculate if two cones orbiting two spheres are occluded by those spheres or and other spheres inthe local region. repeat for all such antennas in local region, one second later repeat
<Bornholio> have comsat netowrk around, mars, venus, stray probes here and there, jupiter missions... plus cloud of sats around earth and its ground stations.
<awang> Huh
<awang> Good point
<Bornholio> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTAbj8aRVvg need contracts for this in RP-1
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<Bornholio> awang do i need something special for 1.3.1 RSS dlls to work
<awang> Bornholio: Not as far as I remember?
<awang> Should act more or less like a regular RSS install
<awang> Did something break?
<Bornholio> stalls on loading, removed RSS and it loads
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> Got the right Kopernicus version?
<awang> That's the only thing I can think of
<Bornholio> 1.3.1-3
<awang> Got Pap's textures?
<Bornholio> reloading it all but thought i did
<awang> idk then :(
<awang> Works on my machine, so not really sure what's breaking
<Bornholio> pap scaled rss textures needs a ckan entry :)
<awang> Maybe replace the current CKAN entry?
<awang> Don't know if dev RSS requires Pap's textures or not
<Bornholio> loaded fine this time, musta miss dragged something
<Bornholio> on to RO
<awang> Huh
<awang> Glad to hear that it works though
<Bornholio> pap also cannot make initial wiki page for some reason
<awang> Huh?
<Bornholio> when i cliky the wiki, it just circulars to the main page and doesn't allow me to make the intro page
<awang> Ah
<awang> !wpn -add:adj raw
<Qboid> awang: Adjective added!
<Bornholio> eww
<awang> IT'S RAAAAAAAAWWWW
<Bornholio> !wpn
* Qboid gives Bornholio a steamed 📠
<awang> !u 📠
<Qboid> U+1F4E0 FAX MACHINE (📠)
<Bornholio> break out the '90's music
<Bornholio> yeah loads RO with only 13 errors
<UmbralRaptor> !u 📟💾📼💽
<Qboid> U+1F4DF PAGER (📟)
<Qboid> U+1F4BE FLOPPY DISK (💾)
<Qboid> U+1F4FC VIDEOCASSETTE (📼)
<Qboid> U+1F4BD MINIDISC (💽)
<UmbralRaptor> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<Bornholio> they put those in just to confuse future generations
<awang> Probably things fixed by blowfish, but languishing in PR purgatory
<awang> minidisc? That's a new one
<UmbralRaptor> awang: added as part of Unicode 6.0 in 2010.
<Bornholio> early bird where for art thou
<Bornholio> also why i have no connection when on launch pad. .sigh
<awang> UmbralRaptor: OK, so maybe not that new >_>
<awang> New name for me though
<awang> I thought that was a regular CD
<awang> Didn't see the dark border against the dark terminal
<UmbralRaptor> There are those also.
<UmbralRaptor> 💿📀
<Bornholio> use almost always in pairs
<awang> !u 💿📀
<Qboid> U+1F4BF OPTICAL DISC (💿)
<Qboid> U+1F4C0 DVD (📀)
<awang> Huh
<awang> I thought DVDs tended to be a more purplish color
<awang> idk, maybe the DVDs I saw were weird
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<Bornholio> readwriteables
<awang> I see
<Bornholio> testflight portion of RO really should be seperated. so many errors
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<awang> Errors?
<Bornholio> mm not finding modules etc.
<Bornholio> starwaster you have any plans for update of Procedural parts to 1.3.1, seems to run fine
<awang> That doesn't sound right
<awang> What kinds of modules is MM not finding?
<Bornholio> well if test flight is not loaded ...
<Bornholio> darn KCT exception ui drops, you have it running awang
<Bornholio> ah no magicore...
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<awang> Oh, you don't have TF installed?
<Bornholio> not yet, that is last, very last
<awang> Guess there are a lot of :NEEDS to add in RO .cfgs, then
<awang> I see
<Bornholio> mm needs a file header module that does Needs: then ignores the whole thing if not
<awang> C++ include guards for MM!
<Bornholio> awang you have real heat 1.3.1 dll but i didn't see a PR or a fork. want me to issue one or more testing?
<awang> Bornholio: That's because PhineasFreak beat me to the 1.3.1 PR
<awang> So I didn't make one
<Bornholio> ah is that also a 1.3.1 and 1.3 then?
<awang> That I don't know
<awang> I think 1.3.1 wouldn't break RealHeat?
<awang> Since the breaking changes were related to the difficult menu, IIRC
<Starwaster> has anyone ever seen an issue with SSTU tanks where resources don't flow to other stack mounted tanks? Like LITERALLY the tank right underneath it?
<Starwaster> Like, tank one on top, tank two below (identically configured) and then the engine and only tank two gets drained?
<Starwaster> bornholio: to answer your question there's a couple of things I want to get done with PP before I update it. Most important among them is reworking the procedural SRB to fix the gimbal
<awang> Hmmm
<Bornholio> cool, testing it unchanged in 1.3.1 right now so it htought i'd ask
<Bornholio> look an article that no-one who actually knows can confirm or deny, just like zuma.
<Bornholio> and bloomberg stahp enabling malware....
<Starwaster> zuma is either alive and well or it never existed
<Bornholio> still think that it was a test target for usa279, came to close to be coincidence.
<Bornholio> getting either exact path is not happening so conjecture as usual
<Starwaster> a target for? meaning hwat? what is USA 279 supposed to do?
<Starwaster> supp[osedly
<Starwaster> supposedly supposed to do
<Bornholio> go look at its patch :)
<Starwaster> goddamit I can't find my working files for the rworked srb gimbals :(
<Bornholio> german spotters ID'd its inclination as 49.5-50, and african pics of falcon upper stage for 280 are on that inclination plus timming puts them close.
<Starwaster> ok so what is it going to do, shoot down zuma? dock with it and practice using robotic claws to slice up its wiring?
<Starwaster> ooooooo grapple with it and forcibly de-orbit it. That's the ticket
<Bornholio> lol, nah i'm guessing test a stealth target vs antistealth sensors
<Probus> Spread the Spartan virus
<Starwaster> then no debris
<Starwaster> it's going to infect zuma with a virus?
<Bornholio> happy south africa?
<Bornholio> this is why its USA280 :P
<Probus> I can't find a good picture of the ZUMA logo
<Bornholio> no you can't
<Probus> I'm probably looking right at it and can't see it.
<Bornholio> stealth logo
<Probus> That's not the whole logo
<Probus> Here's someone talking about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV4YEfWCf_I&t=0s
<Bornholio> that guy can shove beans in his....nvm he is as bad as Ars
<Probus> He says its 280
<Bornholio> zuma is 280
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<Bornholio> i'm saying 280 and 276 are on the same inclination and about same timing at launch for a rendevous. you know 'cause KSP expert at that :P
<Probus> Ah! I see!
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<Starwaster> 279
<Starwaster> ?
<Bornholio> not 279, sorry, 276
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<Starwaster> lamont is PEGAS2 the right branch for your latest PEG?
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<Oneiros> just smashed my foot against the doorframe while doing some stretches
<Oneiros> that'll teach me
<Bornholio> awang got through to loading RP-0 so far with just normal errors and ran a career
<Oneiros> nice
<awang> Starwaster: That should be the right branch
<awang> It's what I've been running for a while
<awang> Oneiros: Sounds like some unusually active stretches :P
<Oneiros> my heart keeps missing beats and i feel like i need to be more active
<Oneiros> preferably without getting injured tho
<UmbralRaptor> If you don't get in better shape, the zombies will get you.
<Bornholio> yeah don't be like me, zombies bit me, now zombie
<Bornholio> and I love doing support on a phone while home sick. saved sick hours! cheers
<Bornholio> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A7gQkIiQKi0VtRecE6p86KCKuoawZPdzk7NlaxssRJ4/edit#gid=1353744027 Loaded all Green Yes successfully running 1.3.1 rp0/ro/rss
<Oneiros> oic
<Oneiros> rp0 uses ctt?
<Bornholio> not really now but its used to avoid conflicts for older builds
<Oneiros> ok. it seems to have declined in popularity over the last couple of years
<Bornholio> The new Dev tree is awesome
<Bornholio> all new icons, special tricks for KCt integration
<Oneiros> oooh sounds nice
<Bornholio> awang is the second RP0 dll for dev?
<Bornholio> will these run dev?
<Bornholio> am i crazy
<awang> Bornholio: Second RP-0 dll?
<awang> Also, glad to hear that things are working
<awang> I was thinking that if we want to get a release ASAP we might want to consider disabling training stuff while kinks are worked out
<Bornholio> noticed tree was borked a bit for RP0, didn't, (RP0KCTBinder)
<Bornholio> didn't think i grabbed dev
<Bornholio> but it was throwing exceptions in R&D when i clicked on nodes
<Bornholio> and had a lot of empty nodes
<Pap> If I have to guess awang, I would think that NK would want to wait for kinks to be ironed out.
<Probus> Falcon Heavy SF got pushed back to Friday. :(
<Bornholio> still clamps?
<Probus> Dunno for sure, but I am sure that is something you want to work right. That would be embarrassing if half the rocket launched.
<Bornholio> they had guys on the clamps last time
<Probus> Does anyone know if the FH decouplers pump fuel/lox to the center stage?
<Bornholio> they don't
<Bornholio> was on the early wishlist, but center is run low power instead
<Probus> Has any rocket ever successfully done that?
<Starwaster> Github Desktop won't let me delete my branch before committing my changes because they would be lost....
<Starwaster> oh the irony
<Starwaster> THE IRONY IT BURNS
<Bornholio> you funny guy
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<Starwaster> OH NO! I deleted my branch and now I lost my changes that I just committed!!! Whatever will I DOOOOoooo
<Oneiros> wat
<Starwaster> You didn't see what happened Oneiros? Do you want to hear my sad tale of woe?
<Starwaster> It all started when I innocently tried to delete a branch in github and it told me that it wouldn't let me do it because I had uncommited changes and it didn't want me to lose them
<Starwaster> so I thought well... that's sensitive and thoughtful of it
<Starwaster> so I committed my changes to the branch and then I deleted it... AND I LOST MY CHANGES ANYWAY!
<Starwaster> Oh the pain....
<Bornholio> github whacked him with a whole branch of the stupid tree
<Starwaster> it whacked me right in the privates
<Starwaster> and then it was mean to my puppy and stole my lunch monies
<Bornholio> okay sergeant
<Bornholio> plus we all nknow its your kittah
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<Bornholio> Probus this http://mentallandscape.com/S_R7.htm russians wanted from begining but you know its hard
<Bornholio> trying to find the one i can think of on display
<Oneiros> jesus
<Oneiros> doesnt it back up your branch?
<Bornholio> the sarcasm is that he wanted to delete it but it wouldn't let him
<Oneiros> oh right
<Oneiros> been a long night lol
<Bornholio> but that was because he had not yet commited some changes
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<Oneiros> just stumbled across an apparently genius solution
<Oneiros> put life support (crew/command modules) at the end of the tech tree
<Bornholio> or put them at 1958-60 and make first pods dependant on them, with recyclers needed for later pods :)
<awang> Bornholio: idk about the exceptions
<awang> But RP0KCTBinder is supposed to be there
<awang> I don't remember if it's something that's new for dev
<Bornholio> do you have CTT in your install
<awang> Pap: But then we won't release until July :P
<Bornholio> nah LGG will take it over before then :)
<Bornholio> did i say that out loud!
<awang> Starwaster: y u no use cmd line
<awang> Bornholio: Yeah, I have CTT in there. I have no clue if it's actually required though
<awang> Pap: ^?
<awang> The LGG takeover is nearly complete
<Oneiros> LGG?
<Bornholio> not sure what to scrub then
<awang> LinuxGuruGamer
<Oneiros> lol!
<awang> Bornholio: What exceptions are you getting?
<Bornholio> sec
<Pap> CTT is not required for dev RP-1. It shouldn't cause any problems but no promises
<Bornholio> wow they are big angry exceptions i'll post the log
<awang> The best kind of exceptions!
<Bornholio> ArgumentNullException: Argument cannot be null. and NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object pairs
* Oneiros brain cries
* Oneiros longs for the day that all coding is done in UE blueprints.
<awang> In what now?
<Bornholio> when i click node in R&D
<wb99999999> I launched a few different boosters and checked the gravity loss number
<Oneiros> unrealengine blueprints
<Oneiros> visual scripting
* Oneiros hides
<wb99999999> it seems like typically an unboosted (start TWR around 1.2~1.3) loses around 200m/s more than a boosted (1.6~ TWR) rocket
<wb99999999> the former also loses a few tens of m/s due to drag, for some reason
<Oneiros> that just reminded me
<Oneiros> https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/125015-105-intakes-lets-figure-them-out/
<Oneiros> does anyone know if this data is still current?
<Bornholio> not with FAR :P
<awang> Uh
<Oneiros> true. rats.
<awang> Bornholio: I have no idea what's going on, assuming I'm looking at the same exceptions you were
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<awang> My first guess would be maybe a part (or part upgrade) is specifying a nonexistent icon
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> Bornholio: This is RP-0, right?
<Bornholio> that could be, but then it should squelch it on load not in the UI
<Bornholio> yes RP-0 Master
<awang> True
<awang> Unless it's lazily loaded?
<wb99999999> ...no this really bugs me now
<wb99999999> why does a rocket get less drag if it's going faster in the atmo?
<wb99999999> I have heard this before when someone was talking about the Sea Dragon and they went something like because it has a high acceleration and large mass the drag is minimal
<Bornholio> lttle planes have tousands of dV in drag losses but hundreds of thousands of dV
<Bornholio> thousands
<awang> Bornholio: I'll need to try booting KSP later. Recently I've only tested whether KSP loads, not whether career still works
<awang> Although given that there were so few changes since I last did career, I'm not sure what I'd find
<awang> wb99999999: Ask our local aero expert?
<Bornholio> I always have have verbose logging on screen so more things bug me also
<wb99999999> is he on?
<awang> Maybe it's because you're spending less time in-atmo?
<awang> Or are taking a more vertical trajectory?
<awang> idk? I know he gets pings
<awang> ferram4: wb99999999 has a question
<wb99999999> that's my initial thought
<wb99999999> but there's times when I gravity turn VERY hard because I have high TWR
<wb99999999> and I went fast lower in the atmosphere
<wb99999999> still got less drag loss
<ferram4> Hmm?
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<ferram4> Rockets that go faster always have higher drag FORCES, but not necessarily higher drag VELOCITY LOSSES.
<wb99999999> I am listening
<soundnfury> wb99999999: note that some kinds of drag peak around M=1.0
<soundnfury> Prandtl singularity and all that ;)
<ferram4> Drag coefficient peaks.
<ferram4> Drag force itself does not.
<wb99999999> so it lose less...momentum? to the drag?
<ferram4> And the Prandtl singularity isn't a thing. It's an error in the linear model of compressibile aerodynamics.
<ferram4> Remember that drag force acting on something produces acceleration, not velocity.
<ferram4> That acceleration needs to be integrated over time to get velocity.
<ferram4> So, theoretically, a rocket that spends more time under a lower drag force (and thus, acceleration) can end up with greater dV drag losses simply because of the time component.
<wb99999999> right
<soundnfury> ferram4: that (it not being a thing)'s why I put the ";)"
<awang> Bornholio: I have that on, too, but I never had issues with R&D
<awang> Only issue I can remember is Hide Empty Tech Tree Nodes tanks my FPS if I haven't unlocked all the tier one nodes
<Bornholio> k then I'll scrub out RP0 and troubleshoot
<awang> Sorry :/
<awang> "Works on my machine, try again" isn't that helpful
<Bornholio> hah, yes it is
<Bornholio> reduces the equation to PEBKAC
<awang> Which KAC remains to be seen :P
<wb99999999> ferram4: so basically, because you spend less time under drag, you spent less time under drag
<awang> wb99999999: ...That sounds tautilogical
<Bornholio> dv=at
<ferram4> It is a possibility for why equal mass rockets end up with lower drag losses by accelerating more.
<awang> s/ti/to
<Qboid> awang meant to say: wb99999999: ...That sounds tautological
<ferram4> I still think that mass differences are more to blame though.
<ferram4> Drag tends to go with area, mass tends to go with volume.
<awang> More mass = higher ballistic coefficient?
<ferram4> Cube-square law and all that.
<wb99999999> you're right
<wb99999999> a few weeks ago I got bored and made a light LV with hydrolox
<ferram4> awang, Well, it is in the definition. m/(Cd*A)
<wb99999999> and it's absolutely terrible
<awang> ferram4: True. Wasn't sure what the formula was, hence the question mark
<awang> Formula makes it blindingly obvious though
<wb99999999> well here's another reason to go for dense fuel then
<soundnfury> wb99999999: it's probably partly terrible because hydrolox first stages are terrible *anyway* for gravy drag reasons
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<awang> "gravy drag"
<wb99999999> it's not as bad if I made a heavier and longer rocket though
<soundnfury> (higher Isp = slower delta M = more time at low TWR = more dV to reach orbit)
<awang> The most delicious part of rocket engineering
<soundnfury> awang: Yes, that is what I call it, do you have a problem with that? :)
<wb99999999> I think someone called that phenomenon the "jerk effect"
<awang> soundnfury: Not at all
<awang> Is that your version of stabbity?
<Bornholio> jerk is the rate of change of the rate of change of the rate of change
<soundnfury> Oh, I use that one too, but that's probably shadowbirb's fault
<soundnfury> wb99999999: yeah, but I think we should call it some eponym of Mitch Burnside Clapp, its discoverer
<soundnfury> something about rockets that go like the clappers, maybe ;)
<Bornholio> use teh fortran luke it'll give powers
<wb99999999> I have to say Born
<wb99999999> the documents you've got are usually very brief
<wb99999999> (I use to imagine long and hard-to-read papers and things)
<Bornholio> this one is basic, hey stupid, MATH! and if you get tired mATH! computer
<Bornholio> so you say your fired a bullet heres how to find its Cd from simple numbers
<wb99999999> oh crap I just noticed they're talking about tank shells
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<wb99999999> I thought they're doing artillery
<wb99999999> my math level is not up to the task XD
<Bornholio> OCW can get you there
<Bornholio> by the way thats a Grad Class
<wb99999999> that's terrifying
<wb99999999> I'm after all an art student who by chances know some undergrad physics
<Bornholio> only 3.5 years more :) Come over to the dark side
<UmbralRaptor> ^
<wb99999999> but you know what
<wb99999999> undergrad, maybe even high school physics is pretty useful in everyday life
<wb99999999> like the fact that insulation goes both ways, which is something surprising amount of people will make mistake on
<wb99999999> like EVERY cafe I've ever been to
<wb99999999> why do I get insulating sleeves for hot drink but a cling film of a cup for cold ones???
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<awang> soundnfury: shadowbirb? I always associated stabbity with UmbralRaptor
<Bornholio> .sigh
<Bornholio> .pointtwo fingers "SAME"
<awang> Really?
<awang> Don't think I've seen the shadowbirb name before
<awang> .........
<Bornholio> shadow=umbral raptor=birb
<awang> Although now that I think about it, it's really obvious
<awang> Yeah
<awang> Excuse me while I go smack my head against a wall
<Bornholio> lol
<Bornholio> first point me at your git so i can look and see whats diff
<awang> Huh?
<Bornholio> don't you git your install?
<awang> Oh right
<awang> Uh
<awang> Might be a bit tricky, since I can't put the repo on GitHub
<awang> Files are too large
<Bornholio> ah, no worries then
<awang> I'll Dropbox it
<awang> Got plenty of space, and internet here is pretty decent
<awang> Looks like I'm going to need to do some cleanup
<Bornholio> lol
<awang> 34.5GB repo, but I'm pretty sure most of it is loose objects that aren't referenced any more
<Bornholio> gah you have everything in it don't you
<awang> Yep
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<awang> Dangit git
<awang> Tell me that I have unstashed changes *before* spending 10 minutes figuring out a rebase
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<wb99999999> why is the G series Centaur so...fat?
<Bornholio> its a space tug and fully notional
<Bornholio> that use anyway
<Bornholio> still only 4.3mish
<Bornholio> think thats fat see ICPS
<wb99999999> well the T variant used on Titan is equally fat...
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<wb99999999> the question is why they returned to the hot dog sausage shape for Common Centaur
<Bornholio> my guess is find a picture of the shuttel with the G and you will see what they were thinking
<wb99999999> the payload bay?