<Bornholio>
and yet again i wonder what i've screwed up, looks like RF is not loading, lots of errors
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<NathanKell|WORK>
Mike`: To answer your question from a long time earlier, often time the engines we patch aren't real, so the engine we turn the part into isn't what the designer intended.
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: Mike` left a message for you in #RO [25.01.2018 10:51:02]: "I'm from Europe so sadly usually asleep when you're around. :) I guess the binder isn't that hard, i was a bit worrying regarding tank levels and the amount of SSTU tanks, see https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/768"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: awang left a message for you in #RO [25.01.2018 14:34:21]: "Should a separate branch be created for removing ModuleEngine*-related things, or should that be done as configs are edited for other things? And if the latter, perhaps we should put a notice somewhere to let contributers know that ModuleEngines*-related things should be removed?"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|WORK: awang left a message for you in #RO [25.01.2018 14:38:35]: "I'll probably need to get those KRASH patches merged, too"
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: :Latter, and yeah, a notice would be good. A separate branch is dangerous because of merge conflicts from other edits.
<NathanKell|WORK>
Mike`: Ah then you're probably asleep already then, dang.
<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: Unless I change ALL the configs at once :P
<NathanKell|WORK>
awang: Fair point :D
<awang>
Maybe (ab)use the PR comment area like some other projects do?
<NathanKell|WORK>
ah, yeah
<awang>
"Have you: [ ] Removed `ModuleEngine*` from any configs you changed?"
<awang>
[ ] Removed trailing whitespace?
<awang>
>:(
<awang>
Those show up in bright red in vim and it's driving me nuts
<awang>
Also, mixed tabs and spaces
<awang>
Grrr
<awang>
NathanKell|WORK: btw, can you think of any times you would want TF to be active during a sim?
<awang>
Only thing I can think of that would be useful is if TF allowed forcing arbitrary failures at arbitrary times
<awang>
But it doesn't (as far as I know)
<awang>
So allowing TF to be active during a sim seems somewhat pointless
<awang>
Also, I remembered how I stumbled across the fuel crossfeed thing for radial decouplers
<awang>
When launching an X-1, I wanted to use a tank clipped inside the carrier body to keep the X-1's tanks topped off
<awang>
Crossfeed through the radial decoupler to allow for a clean detach
<awang>
Any ideas for alternatives if fuel crossfeed isn't enabled?
<awang>
(besides packing extra LOX or not using a carrier plane)
<NathanKell|WORK>
I agree entirely on TF
<Bornholio>
I'm so jealous my guys get to go tour spacex, but i have to stay here. :( awang pylons
<NathanKell|WORK>
Bornholio: :(
<awang>
Bornholio: Why are you stuck away from SpaceX?
<awang>
Pylons?
<Bornholio>
I sent them to solidworks world, and we talked with our spacex contacts to get them a tour while there.
<Bornholio>
Hopefully next big meeting will be out there instead of teleconference
<Bornholio>
also pylons, cheaty pylons
<soundnfury>
o/ NK|W
<awang>
Bornholio: You can't send yourself too?
<awang>
Structural pylons?
<Bornholio>
or cheaty small axial decouplers mounted on a bit of structal
<soundnfury>
awang: You must construct additional axial decouplers :P
<awang>
Well, the aim is to disable crossfeed for all axial decouplers, so...
<Bornholio>
I gave up SWW for amining convention followed by taking Family to DC
<awang>
soundnfury: So *that* is where I heard about pylons
<awang>
Bornholio: Ouch
<awang>
That's unfortunate
<awang>
Also, brb
<NathanKell|WORK>
also I should get back to work sorry!
<NathanKell|WORK>
o/
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<Bornholio>
.sigh wageslave departs
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<CommandoDiamond>
Guess what I finally figured out
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<soundnfury>
NathanKell|AFK: FYI I haven't tested that patch at all yet, not even load-test
<Probus>
What CommandoDiamond?
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Does the CTTree.svg file in the RP-0 repo work for anyone?
<Bornholio>
also check out the beast on page 70ish called the strongarm :)
<SpecimenSpiff>
hm, how would I find the grau code for it?
<SpecimenSpiff>
astronatix calls it the M-100 or A-1
<SpecimenSpiff>
google returns lots for the m-100 but its all the same paragraph of very little info
<SpecimenSpiff>
I found a great document on it's instrument package, but all I get on the rocket is that it was two solid stages and went to about 100km
<SpecimenSpiff>
yep, thats just a copy of the wikipedia/astronatix info
<SpecimenSpiff>
im trying to find out how long the stages burned, isp, thrust, etc
<SpecimenSpiff>
and cant find it anywhere
<Bornholio>
yeah it might be in a technical publication related to weather also, since it was one of the things USSR shared related to rocketry
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<Starwaster>
did anyone ever make an alternative to gimbal auto trim?
<Starwaster>
also, Bornholio, YOU DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS
<Bornholio>
cheaty fuel draining pylons
<Bornholio>
yes they must mount engines :) so they must drain fuel...
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<lamont>
“lithospheric drag” - force felt by orbits within the radius of a planetary body
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<NathanKell>
o/
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<Garlik>
hey NK
<Garlik>
soon your night time I think, but I had a thought yesterday
<NathanKell>
ya?
<Garlik>
VAB uprgades are expensive, and unlock only new KCT VAB build queue
<NathanKell>
Which is hellaciously powerful
<NathanKell>
but yeah
<Garlik>
but KCT build points costs are fixed
<NathanKell>
They're half off for the 2nd rate, and 1/4 for the 3rd rate
<Garlik>
and VAB upgrade points always add +0.05 IIRC
<NathanKell>
Nope
<Garlik>
nope?
<NathanKell>
doubled for rate 2, quad for rate 3
<NathanKell>
that's why it's so powerful
<Garlik>
rate 2 you mean 2nd VAB queue?
<NathanKell>
yeah
<Garlik>
oooooh.. did not notice this...
<NathanKell>
:)
<Garlik>
my thought just went to trash then :)
<NathanKell>
And, interestingly, the *sum* of your build rates determines facility build rate (and rollout time)
<NathanKell>
so it's extra powerful
<NathanKell>
Otherwise there would be no point to queues other than the first, I agree
<Garlik>
also, quicky: I started writting a doc for RP-1 (for newbies on RO/RSS/RP-0) but also for news on RP-1
<Garlik>
not finished yet
<NathanKell>
\o/
<NathanKell>
Oh! Rollout reminds me. You ever check out the launch costs thing we talked about?
<Garlik>
but a lot of people ask info on it on Discord & Reddit, and I think github wiki is missing some info
<Garlik>
should I directly update it, or send it to you or anybody else?
<NathanKell>
Just make a google doc for now I'd say, open to comments (but *not* directly editable) so we can contribute?
<Garlik>
oh yes, rollout costs in VAB seem to be wrong (on the 1.2.2 version of ~2 weeks ago), but is already a lot less expensive in reallity in KCT main screen
<Garlik>
ok for the doc
<Garlik>
lemme check my screenshots for the rollouts
<Garlik>
ok, so my 1200T rocket (not very precise, but you get the idea) for a sample return mission to the Moon on a max level launchpad is 475.000$ effective costs (not the VAB info)
<Garlik>
I could have lanched it on a launchpad for 1200T instead of a max one, but did not have that at the time ready
<NathanKell>
Huh, so even more expensive than the VAB prediction?
<NathanKell>
weird
<Garlik>
nope, less
<Garlik>
VAB prediction was 800.000 ish
<Garlik>
IIRC
<Garlik>
I could do a quick sandbox game to test and gather more precise data on different pads if you wish
<NathanKell>
ohhh
<NathanKell>
Ok, then something is *very* screwy with the VAB predictions
<NathanKell>
Try the latest KCT dll (via that DLL dropbox folder) and see if that helps. It has a fix from awang
<Garlik>
actually, might be a tooling thing too
<Garlik>
is that for 1.3.1?
<NathanKell>
yes
<NathanKell>
oh you're on 1.2.2 right?
<NathanKell>
nm
<Garlik>
yep
<Garlik>
I could/should do a 1.3.1 test install too in any case
<Garlik>
prob will do that this WE
<NathanKell>
It should be 100% compatible
<NathanKell>
(you can get RF and KCT from the dropbox for 1.3, now)
<Garlik>
gotya, will do
<Garlik>
sorry, cant help on the actual mod updates
<Garlik>
only thing I'm able to work on is CC new option for yearly repeatable contracts
<NathanKell>
np, docs count! :D
<NathanKell>
And contracts are also a gateway :]
<Garlik>
wanted to do that on a seperate mod to add this to CC, but I think its best just to re-compile with integrated things I'dd like in there
<Garlik>
seeing how CC is made, hard to add to it from elswhere
<Garlik>
to all you geeks out here, might be intersted in this
<Starwaster>
dammit does 1.2.2 have any stock control over ambient lighting?
<awang>
Mike`: I think unlocks are governed by techRequired nodes
<awang>
Check your MM cache to see if RN_AJ10_37 has the right techRequired
<awang>
techRequired is set by ModuleEngineConfig, I think?
<awang>
So TREE-Engines.cfg, I think
<awang>
Well
<awang>
Try editing RealismOverhaul/RO_SuggestedMods/RaiderNick/RO_RN_USRockets.cfg so rn_aj10_37 has engineType = AJ10_Early
<awang>
RO should automatically add the AJ10-37 config
<awang>
Then RP-0 should automatically set the right techRequired
<Mike`>
well
<Mike`>
the it's in the right techtree-node, and appears in the VAB, so that works. it also has the right engine configs
<Mike`>
it's just that when i actually unlock it in the VAB, the other early AJ10s don't get unlocked aswell and vice versa
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
idk how that mechanism works, unfortunately
<Mike`>
it seems identicalParts.cfg did the trick for the other engine i fixed, not sure why its not working now
<Mike`>
np, thanks anyway :)
<awang>
You sure you added @PART[rn_aj10_37] and also changed the other aj10-37 engines to have rn_aj10_37 in their identicalParts list?
<awang>
Only thing I can think of at the moment is that the unlock message isn't making it across to other parts
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
identicalParts isn't referenced in the RP-0 source code anywhere
<awang>
brb, meeting
<Mike`>
mhm, might it be case sensitive? seems i used the wrong case, should try that
<Maxsimal>
I think MM patch stuff is case sensitive, so yeah that might be it
<Maxsimal>
!tell soundnfury Will there be any new ground rules for the next RIS?
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Mike`>
ground rules?
<Maxsimal>
Race into space - it's a mod soundnfury came up with where certain events are tracked in RP0 and reported to a server, that can compare the time those events are completed by people playing RIS + RP-0 (or RP-1) - making it a race.
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<Mike`>
yeah i know it from nathan's stream, i was confused by "ground rules" though - rules for the actual race organized by snf?
<Maxsimal>
Oh well, I assumed there were some - obvious ones like 'don't cheat the pad limit by fueling on the pad' for instance.
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<Mike`>
ah okay, makes sense
<Maxsimal>
I mean, that one might not even be worth saying - not sure if there were any others though.
<Mike`>
it is indeed case sensitive, works now
<Mike`>
thanks :)
<Maxsimal>
I know from watching NK that he was only restoring to pad in the case of what seemed like a bit bug
<Maxsimal>
*Big
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<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Can't find any mention of identicalParts in RP-0, RO, or RF codebases
<awang>
Only mention is that one file
<awang>
s/mention is/mentions are
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: Only mentions are that one file
<awang>
Mike`: Glad to hear you got things figure out, though!
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
It's part of KSP
<awang>
Never mind
<Mike`>
oh, it is? interesting
<Mike`>
yeah sorry to bother you, awang, i was being stupid and shomehow thought it wouldn't be case sensitive
<Mike`>
it's also somewhat confusing that some authors use lowercase names, some use uppercase....etc
<awang>
And apparently MM is *not* case-sensitive when working with mod names
<awang>
Like in :FOR[<something>]
<awang>
So the confusion isn't entirely unwarranted
<awang>
And yeah, apparently identicalParts is supposed to govern what other parts should be unlocked when a particular part is unlocked
<awang>
So if anything, it's KSP that's case-sensitive
<awang>
At least with respect to part names
<awang>
People got too used to OS filesystems being case-insensitive, perhaps
<awang>
Er, popular OS filesystems
* awang
hides from linux users
<Mike`>
:)
<Mike`>
!tell Pap which price is the correct one for the LR-79, 300 or 650? and if the latter, what's the reason for being more than twice as expensive as the very similar LR-89?
<Qboid>
Mike`: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
300 would be correct Mike`
<Qboid>
Pap: Mike` left a message for you in #RO [26.01.2018 17:16:16]: "which price is the correct one for the LR-79, 300 or 650? and if the latter, what's the reason for being more than twice as expensive as the very similar LR-89?"
<Mike`>
ah, thanks Pap, will submit a PR
<Mike`>
the unlock cost is still 13k - keep it at that or does that also need to be lowered?
<Pap>
Wait
<Mike`>
*entryCost
<Mike`>
the LR-89s is 6k
<Pap>
You are not going to want to make any PR's for tech unlocks or for cost changes, they all need to be done on the spreadsheet
<Pap>
Only NK and I have access to it as I am scared to give access away. Tehre are a lot of formulas
<Pap>
I am going to go through it and lock all of the formula cells and share it
<Pap>
BE VERY CAREFUL, this can ruin a lot of things
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<Mike`>
well, the LR79's cost is 300 for the stock part and 650 for the other mods
<Mike`>
so basically i assume in the spreadsheet there's just one "correct" number and my PR would just "fix" those parts with the wrong cost
<Mike`>
sadly i don't have excel installed so i guess i can't take an easy look for myself...maybe i should install libreoffice :s
<Pap>
No, it is on Google Sheets
<Mike`>
ah okay, cool
<Pap>
The PR will fix the issue, but the next time we generate the Google Sheet for any other change, your PR will be overwritten and no one will notice
<Pap>
Does that make sense?
<Mike`>
if you auto-generate the files, yes, that does make sense. I looked for an auto-generating warning in the files but couldn't find any.
<Mike`>
Is the same true for identicalParts.cfg? Was going to make a PR with some additions there, aswell.
<Pap>
Yes, it is the same for that as well
<Pap>
Good point about adding a notice for the Auto-Generated files
<Pap>
Basically everything that is Tech Tree or Part related is auto-generated out of this spreadsheet
<Mike`>
ah okay, so for fixes either poke nk or you here or submit bugs? :)
<Pap>
Nope, going to give you access to fix it
<Mike`>
alrighty, thanks
<awang>
Pap: what files are generated from the spreadsheet?
<awang>
I'm pretty sure one of my PRs touched tech unlocks...
<awang>
Er, several
<awang>
At the very least, I fixed when the AJ10-137 was unlocked
<awang>
And a few agena engines
<Pap>
Mike`: Actually the LR79 numbers are correct, so the first unlocks are for the very first version of the LR79, which is the S-3, the other ones are not representative of the S-3, they are for the actual production versions of the LR79 so they unlock at a higher price later in the tech tree. Also, they are entryCost modified meaning they will lower when the S-3 tech is unlocked
<Pap>
These are great questions awang Let me check
<awang>
There's an RCS TL fix I submitted for soundnfury too
<Pap>
ECM-Engines, ECM-Parts, identicalParts, TREE-Engines, TREE-Parts are all generated from the spreadsheet
<Pap>
I am sure you will have questions, basically all changes happen on the PArts sheet
<Pap>
Please add Comments to EVERY cell you change so we know what and why things were changes
<Mike`>
Pap, i've unlocked the first LR79 (S3) with orbital rocketry 56. That gave me several different LR79 parts in the VAB, the stock one was 300, the others showing 650. Entrycost is the same, 13k.
<awang>
Jeez, how do you find things on here
<Pap>
Mike`: They should all unlock for free, no?
<Pap>
awang: Use the filters, once you understand the structure of the file, it is easy
<Mike`>
Oh, sorry, i'm talking about the part/engine cost, not unlock cost
<Pap>
Ask me for something specific and I will tell you how I would find it (might help) awang
<Pap>
Mike`: Gotcha!
<Pap>
Yep, those are different, no idea why!
<awang>
Pap: So I need to change the tech level for bluedog_agenaA, but the cell has a pretty scary looking formula
<awang>
And the year in the spreadsheet is right
<awang>
Just doesn't match the tech node
<Pap>
Let me check that awang That might be a whole different issue
<Pap>
awang: The CATEGORY is wrong for that engine
<Pap>
should be orbital rocketry I am assuming?
<awang>
Yeah
<awang>
Well
<Pap>
OK, change the CATEGORY to ORBITAL
<awang>
I think we talked about this earlier
<awang>
It has an engine plus RCS
<awang>
Maybe other bits
<Pap>
Yes, should be an engien
<Pap>
engine
<awang>
Alright
<Pap>
Did changign that value give you the proper tech? (it takes a while, there are some VERY advanced formulas on there)
<Pap>
NM, I see that it did
<Pap>
I added a comment to that cell that you changed
<awang>
Sorry, logged out/back in so comments would have my name
<awang>
But you beat me to it, it seems
<Pap>
Please add comments like that one to all of the changes
<Pap>
LOL
<Pap>
Just wanted to do it as an example
<awang>
I see
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
So I think I managed to screw up my google docs view
<Pap>
As you can see, this spreadsheet is very complicated. NathanKell and I lived in it for a long time getting everything right, but I have forgotten half of what we did with it
<Pap>
Google Docs interface is not great, what happened?
<Pap>
Yes, so the weird thing about it is when someone else (me in this case) puts a filter on (like i did to find the part), it sets that view for everyone. Very annoying
<awang>
Oh
<Pap>
The thing that looks like a Funnel can be clicked twice to clear the filter
<awang>
That's stupid
<Pap>
Completely stupid
<awang>
docs tells me that I'm trying to edit a protected cell/object when I click the funnel
<awang>
Pap: Is RFTechLevels.cfg generated?
<awang>
Same for RP0TechTree
<awang>
Also, I want to change radial decouplers so that crossfeed is unlocked at the materialsScienceSpaceplanes node, instead of not at all
<awang>
How do I do that in the spreadsheet?
<Pap>
RFTechLevels is manual
<Pap>
RP0TechTree is unlocked by a completely different file that only I have, does anything need to be changed on there?
<Pap>
awang: How do you do that with the crossfeed unlock?
<awang>
Pap: RP0TechTree had a few wording changes I submitted a while ago
<awang>
PR #763 on the RP-0 github, I think?
<awang>
As for the crossfeed, it's adding @MODULE[ModuleToggleCrossfeed] { @techRequired = materialsScienceSpaceplanes }
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<awang>
I added that to smallRadialDecoupler, radialDecoupler, radialDecoupler1-2, and radialDecoupler2
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<awang>
Ouch
<awang>
Apparently the Ariane 5 satellites are in a 20 degree GTO instead of 3 degree
<awang>
So the upper stage increase inclination by quite a bit?
<awang>
s/increase/increased
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: So the upper stage increased inclination by quite a bit?
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<lamont>
i think i have programmed a proper calculus of variation trajectory integrator in matlab for the coast-burn problem of finite burn execution (node executor with finite burn effects)
<egg>
mrow?
<lamont>
baby steps
<lamont>
it has some issues, like a 30 degree inclination change in 185x185 orbit causes it to blow up — but that is a 4,000 dV single burn — long burn + high acceleration at the end — and likely fairly nonphysical
<lamont>
but i also don’t have a jacobian for it, and haven’t done any adjustment of the length + velocity units
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<soundnfury>
Maxsimal: I'm guessing the same as last time, basically 'no cheats, only revert on bug'
<Qboid>
soundnfury: Maxsimal left a message for you in #RO [26.01.2018 15:06:17]: "Will there be any new ground rules for the next RIS?"
<soundnfury>
so yeah no fuelling-on-pad, no recovering-from-the-pad-to-a-different-launch-site-to-get-a-different-biome, no unlocking-a-tech-before-its-dependencies
<awang>
It'd be nice if KCT enforced being unable to research techs before their prerequisites were researched
<soundnfury>
Yes, it would.
<soundnfury>
Someone clone magico13 a few times ;)
<awang>
I'd imagine that would get pretty complicated, though, if it still allowed reordering things
<awang>
Enforcing prerequisites would be easy if you couldn't reorder things
<soundnfury>
ehh, shouldn't be too hard, just never allow a tech and its immediate prereq to swap places
<soundnfury>
since you can only ever more in ones, I think that should actually do it(!)
<awang>
Oh, was it move one at a time?
<awang>
I was under the impression it was move to the top
<soundnfury>
... I'm _fairly_ sure there's only a one-at-a-time button
<awang>
But I haven't touched the R&D menu in a while, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong
<awang>
I'd trust you over my faulty memory
<soundnfury>
I mean, if there _were_ a move-to-top button, that'd be easy too - only allow it if all prereqs are fully unlocked :)
<awang>
True
<awang>
....idk why I thought it was so complicated
<soundnfury>
I also thought it was complicated until just now when I realised the algorithm ;)
<awang>
Guess the big question now is "Does KCT have access to the right info?"
<soundnfury>
idk. I'm filing an issue against KCT and describing my algorithm
<soundnfury>
chances that I will try implementing it myself are low
<Qboid>
[#174] title: Techs can be unlocked out of order | If you have a tech A which is a prerequisite of B, and you queue both up, you can then re-order them on the R&D pane of the KCT GUI such that B unlocks first.... | https://github.com/magico13/KCT/issues/174
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<Probus>
What I miss?
<Probus>
Did someone solve all the world's problems?
<soundnfury>
not yet, try back tomorrow
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<Probus>
Whew... I thought I missed it.
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