<Bornholio>
hmm my MM is always patching now, even if no changes are made. is that new?
<SRBuchanan>
Mine's been doing that for a while.
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: A bunch of mods write to cfg files
<NathanKell>
Persistent Rotation used to (still does?) for example
<NathanKell>
KAC used to
<NathanKell>
etc
<Bornholio>
maybe Lamonts PEG is saving something then
<Bornholio>
guess i'll build a lego new order atat
<Bornholio>
while waiting
<SRBuchanan>
Bornholio: Not sure what that does as far as realism goes.
<SRBuchanan>
My aim is to create a comprehensive solution for using real-world thrusters in RO.
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<Bornholio>
nice thing about RO for those things is just name it right and it will get the right stats
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<SRBuchanan>
I don't believe there are configs for most of the ones I aim to make.
<SRBuchanan>
That's going to be a pull request at some point.
<SRBuchanan>
Digging around finding information for this stuff it seems that RCS is the most underappreciated component of spacecraft.
<SRBuchanan>
Most of these engines are troopers that fail either extremely rarely or not at all, ever, and most if not all spacecraft have them, yet even the NASA data sheets don't list them by name.
<SRBuchanan>
I only figured out that the Shuttle's vernier engines were designated R1-E by accident because they were mentioned on the Wikipedia page for the H-II Transfer Vehicle.
<SRBuchanan>
Neither they nor the R-40 primary attitude thrusters were mentioned by name on the Space Shuttle's pages, whether from Wikipedia, Astronautix, NASA's own archives, or the several enthusiasts' pages I consulted.
<soundnfury>
SRBuchanan: I think it's because everyone assumes "oh they're small chambers, they're bound to work fine".
<soundnfury>
(well, until Shuttle's didn't...)
<SRBuchanan>
Point is, RCS doesn't get enough love in RO - we have plenty of procedural options but the off-the-shelf real stuff is sparse.
<SRBuchanan>
I want to change that.
<Bornholio>
lots of stuff on NTRS for RCS thrusters only 3k results :P
<SRBuchanan>
NTRS?
<Qboid>
SRBuchanan: [NTRS] => NASA Technical Reports Server
<SRBuchanan>
Ah.
<Bornholio>
other good place is Mil DTIC server
<soundnfury>
well, I guess maybe because changing the RCS design doesn't have very much effect on a vehicle's performance or behaviour
<soundnfury>
and they're small enough that they don't show up much on screenshots
<soundnfury>
so why put in the effort?
<Bornholio>
they are worth the effort :)
<soundnfury>
(I'm not saying you shouldn't btw, I'm just saying this is why no-one else has ;)
<Bornholio>
thats why i'm sad to see N2 RCs on falcon
<SRBuchanan>
I've gotten to the point that I obsess over details and having an orbital spacecraft bristling with little control thruster nozzles makes it look better versus having a bunch of bland blisters.
<SRBuchanan>
If I'm already putting in the effort to make new models (which is my real gripe) I might as well go ahead and address the lack of off-the-shelf real-world thrusters.
<SRBuchanan>
This also ties into my obsession with making 'could have happened' platforms like Jupiter.
<soundnfury>
heh
<soundnfury>
we're all obsessed with something, or we wouldn't be playing this game xD
<SRBuchanan>
I want to go for as much realism as I can at every step of the process.
<SRBuchanan>
Yup.
<SRBuchanan>
I'm just finally obsessed enough to make the jump from 'user' to 'contributor.'
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: what's wrong with N₂?
<Bornholio>
ISP, fuel density etc
<soundnfury>
SRBuchanan: welcome to the dark side :)
<Bornholio>
at least go bi prop
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: but it's nontoxic and noncoking
<soundnfury>
which is good for cost and for reusability
<soundnfury>
which are much more important than the ISP of the RCS
<SRBuchanan>
N2 wins in a few ways: no residue, no special handling concerns, and no complexity.
<soundnfury>
(I mean, if *I* were designing it I'd use HTP, but then I'd probably be using that in the main engine too so...)
<SRBuchanan>
Yup.
<ProjectThoth>
No love for peroxide?
<SRBuchanan>
Shit no. That stuff's dangerous as hell.
<SRBuchanan>
Like fuck dude, chill the hell out.
<ProjectThoth>
So's UDMH. :P
<SRBuchanan>
Not like peroxide.
<SRBuchanan>
UDMH will explode if you poke it with a stick. Peroxide goes off if you so much as think a nasty thought about it.
<SRBuchanan>
I use it in my early careers but damn do I not like that stuff.
<SRBuchanan>
And don't even get me STARTED about perperoxides.
<awang>
Someone should like the In the Pipeline blog entry on peroxides
<awang>
s/like/link
<ProjectThoth>
Perry Peroxide, the loveable chemical mascot?
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: Someone should link the In the Pipeline blog entry on peroxides
<SRBuchanan>
That's another 'Things I Won't Work With' champion.
<soundnfury>
SRBuchanan: ehh, most metal fluorides are pretty inert
<soundnfury>
I think there's a line in Ignition like "most fluoride compounds are pretty final, being essentially the ash of an element burned with fluorine"
<soundnfury>
it's only the interhalogens and halochalcogens (is that the right word?) you've got to beware of
<Bornholio>
worked with a guy who got chellation treament twice for HF
<soundnfury>
yipe
<SRBuchanan>
Well, take one really powerful oxidizer and one really combustive fuel, throw them together, and you tend to get one really stable product after a lot of fuss.
<SRBuchanan>
Sodium and Chlorine are both pretty unpleasant in their pure forms. Smash 'em together and you can eat it.
<NathanKell>
taniwha I think that was from a double install
<taniwha>
ah
<SRBuchanan>
You have to eat about a hundred grams of salt for it to pose a real threat to your life.
<SRBuchanan>
Which makes it more toxic than pure THC, curiously.
<SRBuchanan>
I have to say though that my favorite dangerous chemical is Ozone-45.
<SRBuchanan>
Three Oxygen-15 atoms stuck together.
<ProjectThoth>
Hmm, why don't you get nitrous oxide out of NH3 + NaClO?
<Bornholio>
taniwha not using switcher in this install does that make the difference
<SRBuchanan>
It's condition-sensitive. If you do it wrong you end up with gaseous chlorine.
<SRBuchanan>
Chlorine's notorious for outgassing.
<taniwha>
Bornholio: not using switcher does make it more reliable
<SRBuchanan>
In a low-concentration environment like a pool that's mitigated.
<SRBuchanan>
I work on pool sanitation chemistry stuff so I know a lot about the chlorine - ammonia interactions.
<SRBuchanan>
People ask me about the 'dye' all the time... it doesn't exist, but if your kid gets in your pool and all of a sudden you get a strong smell of chlorine? Little stinker peed in it.
<SRBuchanan>
Pool chemistry sucks because of how many different things there are going on.
<SRBuchanan>
Much nicer with rockets where you have one, two, or three different things going in.
<soundnfury>
well, dissociation in the exhaust can get interesting
<soundnfury>
and there are at least a dozen things going on in RFNA or mixed acid...
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, it gets fun.
<SRBuchanan>
But not like dealing with acid-base, chlorine-ammonia, chlorine-cyanuric acid-other organics, acid-calcium, iron-calcium, acid-iron, copper-organics, and so many other fun things at once.
<soundnfury>
xD
<SRBuchanan>
Happily there's a bit more margin of error with a pool.
<ProjectThoth>
What really is the rule to determining products of a reaction? Lowest electronegativity difference between the components of the possible products?
<SRBuchanan>
Mostly.
<ProjectThoth>
With exceptions like acid-base, I assume.
<SRBuchanan>
They're conditional though - temperature and pressure change the outcome.
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: nothing so simple usually
<SRBuchanan>
Electronegativity is just sort of a reference starting point.
<soundnfury>
depends what attack sites, nice leaving groups etc you have
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: I'd be very concerned if I was in a pool that was significantly beyond STP.
<SRBuchanan>
Actually a pool at STP would be solid and chemically inert.
<SRBuchanan>
Except on the surface.
<soundnfury>
and some weird things can contribute to entropy and thus change the thermodynamic gradients driving the reaction
<SRBuchanan>
Because Ice Is Weird (tm).
<ProjectThoth>
Ice *is* weird.
<Starwaster>
nothing gets the juices flowing like an EVA transfer out of a stricken vehicle at 110 km altitude
<SRBuchanan>
Heh.
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Yeah, we didn't get that far in chemistry.
<SRBuchanan>
I can climb the highest mountain, cross the widest sea
<SRBuchanan>
, I can feel St. Elmo's fire burning in me, burning in me...
<SRBuchanan>
Gettin' a little toasty on EVA?
<Bornholio>
STOCK rescue mission lolercopter
<SRBuchanan>
Jeez... I talk about needing mod help in the KSP Discord, get the help, show my initial results, and now other people are coming to ME for help...
<SRBuchanan>
Come on kids, I just got here. Go bug someone with a published mod.
<ProjectThoth>
modular solids wen
<SRBuchanan>
Fuck dude. I wish.
<SRBuchanan>
I might make a serious effort at patching SSTU for 1.3 RO.
<ProjectThoth>
There's just something... off about the way KSP does solids.
<SRBuchanan>
Something? Only one thing?
<SRBuchanan>
Geez, LET ME COUNT THE WAYS.
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: Yes.
<SRBuchanan>
>No thrust curves
<SRBuchanan>
>No segments
<Bornholio>
you can do thrust curves, is no problem
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, but they aren't there by default.
<SRBuchanan>
Which is whack.
<Bornholio>
that is why you are in the RO channel
<SRBuchanan>
Eyup.
<Bornholio>
but, ksp did include the structure
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: I'm actually okay with not having true thrust curves, because, after all, it's KSP.
<ProjectThoth>
The thing that bothers me the most is the inability to stack modular solid units together on top of an engine of some kind (hell, repurpose the stock engines).
<ProjectThoth>
And maybe include a thrust termination port module.
<Starwaster>
SRBuchanan not just toasty, there was just enough drag that I had to constantly adjust for as I was trying to close the distance. Oh and it was DARK and I could barely see the capsule I was going towrds
<SRBuchanan>
Fun!
<Bornholio>
need curves driven by selection , say star, circular, end burner ...
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: yeah, my first attempt to write Boosteriferous, before we had that support, was hella ugly
<SRBuchanan>
The atmosphere needs a softer edge.
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: That'd be kinda nice.
<ProjectThoth>
But just a simple stockalike modular SRB mod would be, like, the bee's knees.
<soundnfury>
it was constantly checking fuel level and tweaking the engine's parameters :/
<SRBuchanan>
End burners always seemed like a lot of potential for things to go wrong to me.
<Starwaster>
but yeah it was a little warm
<Bornholio>
they are great for long burn, but take heavy wall to put up with the heat
<SRBuchanan>
With core-burners the casing doesn't get direct exposure to the combustion until right before burnout.
<SRBuchanan>
They ablatively cool themselves.
<ProjectThoth>
I think that was a plan for the Shuttle's SRBs... mounting a thrust termination port in the nose.
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<Starwaster>
I don't think that's entirely true... because the SRB is in sections, some of it does get through to the case even before it's burnt out
<Starwaster>
in the Challenger accident, the SRB was actually burnt through early on but it's believed that the hole was obstructed (by part of hte O ring?)
<Bornholio>
my designs for the summer are going to have a carbon fiber sock to prevent fallout and i
<Bornholio>
m doing an agressive star pattern
<ProjectThoth>
Carbon fiber socks? Those can't be comfortable.
<SRBuchanan>
Certainly it would be nice to have the link to Beale's part creation tutorial pinned somewhere.
<Bornholio>
I got all green yes to load
<SRBuchanan>
I guess you could always just pin that in 'Tutorials.'
<NathanKell>
SRBuchanan: Indeed
<NathanKell>
nah, I think a modding gateway makes some sense
<NathanKell>
I just, like snf, am somewhat skeptical of the denizens of the discords
<soundnfury>
hey now that NathanKell is alive, I probably ought to update/port RIS for RP-1
<NathanKell>
SRBuchanan but then I haven't hung out there in the last forever, so I dunno
<SRBuchanan>
Frankly with how much of a barrier getting into this presented if I wasn't so completely stubborn and bloody-headed I never would have gotten off the ground.
<SRBuchanan>
The RO Discord's actually okay. A bit more randos than in here for sure but nothing at all even remotely like the situation in the KSP Discord.
<NathanKell>
Ah cool. Last I was really paying attention it was nearly an imageboard :P
<soundnfury>
I mean, RO discord was sane enough for GfL
<soundnfury>
(ahh those were the days, GfL)
<NathanKell>
indeed...
<NathanKell>
/tears
<SRBuchanan>
We have the occasional kid from KSP come through but for the most part it's actually relevant and topical.
<NathanKell>
great!
<NathanKell>
lamont what's the current releasable?
<NathanKell>
or at least usable? :]
<NathanKell>
ah found. I think.
<NathanKell>
haha nope, that's 1.2.
<SRBuchanan>
Is it possible to have a part be shiny in parts and diffuse in other parts?
<NathanKell>
use the alpha channel of the texture for specularity
<NathanKell>
and use a specular-supporting shader for the part
<SRBuchanan>
Alright.
<SRBuchanan>
I'll have to look into that tomorrow - I need to get some sleep.
<SRBuchanan>
Later folks.
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<soundnfury>
right, configs written (but not tested!) for RIS on RP-1
<lamont>
you’re heading due east at 400m/s to start with and you burn straight up at a 90 degree angle == piles of steering losses
<NathanKell>
yep
<lamont>
and actually that means that the 400m/s of velocity you get “for free” by launching east isn’t really free — you fight it at the start with steering losses, but then you do get it back overall so its more neutral
<lamont>
which i think means if its 9200 m/s to orbit due east from the cape, it should be about 9200 m/s due south from the poles (or 9200 m/s if you stopped the earth’s rotation)
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<Garlik>
Hey NK, trying to get my 1st mod working and wondering if you could see this included in RP-0/1
<Garlik>
I was thinking yearly repeatable contracts could be a usefull feat for 'late game'
<Garlik>
so contracts you could repeat x time every year
<NathanKell>
Sounds interesting! We definitely lack later-game content there. Pap would be the guy to talk to about contracts, I think :)
<NathanKell>
I gotta zzz myself though, sorry!
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<Garlik>
NP, nn
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<soundnfury>
OK, I've verified that my new RIS configs function correctly in RP-1. I guess the next step will be to build it against 1.3.x
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<wb99999999>
now that I learned how to count in French I can finally count down with the ESA dude!
<Oneiros>
nice
<wb99999999>
and tbh French counting is very weird...
<Oneiros>
ya
<wb99999999>
basically they count with both hands until 60, at which point they realize that they also had both feet with 5 toes each
<UmbralRaptor>
Solution: use Swiss French
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<wb99999999>
yes that academy thing is really dumb
<wb99999999>
one thing I know from linguistics is to not prescribe language or people will move on to something with more wiggle room
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<Garlik>
and Belgian French is the in-between solution ;-)
<wb99999999>
ahh Belgian is a lovely place
<wb99999999>
always wanted to visit
<wb99999999>
I mean Belgium
<Garlik>
well, if youre in switsserland, its not really far
<wb99999999>
sadly I'm in the most developed desert in the world, also know as North America
<Garlik>
oh. Sorry for you :P Take a BFR/BFS, you'll be here in just 40m
<UmbralRaptor>
wb99999999: That's an interesting term for "Silicon Valley"
<wb99999999>
well in fact I'm in Canada, and if you average the population density...
<wb99999999>
Canada is actually a desert
<Bornholio>
and he is in a the highest population density in the western hemisphere, joker
<Garlik>
aaah, everybody loves canada!
<Garlik>
yeah, belgium is crazy overpopulated for its size!
<Probus>
Eh?
<wb99999999>
I'd so go to Europe for the mere fact that a car is not a necessity for survival there
<wb99999999>
I like stuff to be within walking or cycling distance
<Garlik>
well, that would depend A LOT on exactly where you are
<Garlik>
you dont have a bakery in 10km arround my house
<wb99999999>
the thing is in Canada or the US stuff can locate beyond cycling distance even in big metropolis
<wb99999999>
I'm living in one of the most populated city in the local portion of the country and still...sometimes you can walk kilometers after kilometers seeing nothing but the same suburb houses
<wb99999999>
I mean...there's bias...since I am from literally the most populated country on the planet
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<Vader113>
anyone having issues building the rp0 dll file?
<Vader113>
keep getting this error The type or namespace name 'BaseEventData' could not be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)ModuleProceduralAvionics.cs
<awang>
Vader113: That means you are trying to build 1.2 source code using KSP 1.3
<awang>
Or vice-versa
<awang>
I think
<awang>
What branch are you building from?
<awang>
And for what KSP version
<awang>
?
<Vader113>
ummmm ok i swear im using 1.3.1 code
<awang>
What branch?
<Vader113>
doh
<Vader113>
im dumb
<Vader113>
i haven't added your 1.3.1 code awang
<awang>
Yep, that'd do it
<awang>
Uh, hold on
<awang>
Let me rebase to pull in the training fix
<Vader113>
yeah thats what i was trying to do
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Well, I need to do that anyways
<awang>
Alright, pushed the update
<awang>
So you should be able to use the DLL in the PR
<Vader113>
cheers
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<Probus>
awang, what does the training fix do?
<Garlik>
I can answer that one:
<Garlik>
it force mission training to end on recovery
<Garlik>
so you can re-train the kerbal for the next mission
<Garlik>
as soon as you want
<Garlik>
or, at least after his 'vacation' period
<Probus>
Ah, OK. Thanks Garlik
<Garlik>
FYI: before that fix you could only train the kerbal for a second mission once his original mission training valid time was finished
<Garlik>
even if he had returned from a previous mission
<Garlik>
making him useless during the full duration of the train duration after recovery
<Garlik>
at least on the same pod type
<Garlik>
as you where able to train him for another pod type
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<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy
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<Garlik_>
Any modder present?
<Garlik_>
I'm trying to setup VS for the first time to do a very simple mod
<Garlik_>
but unable to set VS to use .net 3.5
<Garlik_>
seems like a stupid thing though... but cant find a solution
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