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<NathanKell> o/
<lamont> o/
<Bornholio> training looks better NK, stopped having doubles of things
<NathanKell> yay!
<SRBuchanan> Whoo!
<SRBuchanan> Hey Nathan, I wanna make parts for KSP but I have only the vaguest clue where to start. Know any guides that aren't horribly deprecated?
<NathanKell> hmm. Your best bet would be to PM CobaltWolf I think
<NathanKell> He'd know the most up to date sources
<Bornholio> i have a suggestion that astonaut center multiple training time say level 1 is base, 2 is 90% time and 3 is 75% time. at least for proficiency
<lamont> NK: do you know much about PatchedConicSolver?
<NathanKell> A little bit. Bill ( taniwha ) would know more I think
<NathanKell> since he rewrote it, IIRC :)
<lamont> hah
<SRBuchanan> Where do I find him?
<NathanKell> forum. He runs a discord too, with a lot of modders
<SRBuchanan> Thanks.
<NathanKell> :)
<lamont> well the problem i’m having is in MJs transfer planner’s use of that API does not agree with what an actual generated KSP node produces as the trajectory
<lamont> MJ seems to be missing interactions with e.g. Mun/Moon that show up and deflect the ‘real’ trajectory off course
<NathanKell> ah
<NathanKell> yeah definitely a taniwha thing :)
<lamont> k
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<soundnfury> \o NK
<NathanKell> o/
* soundnfury gives NathanKell a 1202 alarm clock
<soundnfury> it goes off every day at two minutes past midnight
* NathanKell is feeling stupid for not getting the (presumed) pun
<soundnfury> :D
<xShadowx> howd NK get out of his cage......
<soundnfury> xShadowx: https://xkcd.com/234/
<UmbralRaptor> Maybe NK is Baal the Souleater? https://xkcd.com/1638/
<SRBuchanan> If he is, how many souls do I have to feed him for 1.3.1 RO to release?
<Bornholio> yours
<SRBuchanan> Deal.
<wb99999999> lamont: don't think I have any with me but just build Titan 4 and the problem will probably surface
<wb99999999> the cork is use side boosters with high enough dry mass
<wb99999999> so that you can't possibly achieve orbit without separating them
<egg|zzz|egg> lamont: oh yeah, I should look at your feature request at some point
<egg|zzz|egg> lamont: ... does it need to be asynchronous
<awang> egg|zzz|egg: Ever got KSP to boot?
<egg|zzz|egg> awang: haven't tried tonight
<awang> Ah, ok
<awang> No worries then
<egg|zzz|egg> but haven't gotten it to boot either :-p
<awang> :(
<egg|zzz|egg> awang: I'll try updating with your checkers update, but it's weird that you don't have that issue with an essentially identical setup...
<awang> This is going to bug me
<awang> Give me your Gamedata folder maybe?
<lamont> egg: should be synchronous i think
<lamont> i think its the responsibility of the caller to not make rediculously precise and expensive demands of it every tick or whatever
<egg|zzz|egg> lamont: well, if you don't need async it's certainly easier, but I was thinking that since it can conceivably be a long computation you might be interested in getting futures
<lamont> ultimately yes i can certainly see that being useful
<egg|zzz|egg> lamont: well it's not so much about doing it every tick than about the fact that hanging the ui thread even every handful of ticks is bad form
<lamont> that wasn’t what i was thinking of using though
<egg|zzz|egg> ok, sgtm
<egg|zzz|egg> synchronous is easier :-p
<lamont> yes indeedy
<wb99999999> https://imgur.com/a/GRKoL the atlas II I made
<SRBuchanan> Looks shiny.
<SRBuchanan> Everybody knows shiny rockets work better.
<egg|zzz|egg> awang: eh, I'll try going from a clean install sometime during the week
<egg|zzz|egg> awang: and incrementally checking that it loads
<Bornholio> have explody mercury pods again .what fixed that before
<awang> egg|zzz|egg: Join the dark side, and version KSP with git
<egg|zzz|egg> awang: sure, but I'd like what I put inside to be reproducible, rather than just rollbackable
<awang> Never again have to worry about clean installs
<awang> Shouldn't git make it reproducible?
<awang> Since you roll back to a known state?
<egg|zzz|egg> no but I mean I would like to know that I'm testing your pull request
<egg|zzz|egg> not a badly copied version thereof :-p
<egg|zzz|egg> maybe I should have a script to copy over the mods, but lazy
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<awang> ...Sorry, I don't follow :(
<egg|zzz|egg> awang: well, manually copying over the mods from the zips and repo clones is error-prone, and since there's overlap with included dependencies, dependent on the order
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<SRBuchanan> What's a good number of vertices for an 11cm circle?
<SRBuchanan> Alright let's go 256 faces.
<SRBuchanan> Should be fine.
<awang> egg|zzz|egg: git rebase -i helps with ordering issues
<egg|zzz|egg> yes but it melts my brain
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<soundnfury> egg|zzz|egg: given that you're at least as smart as me and probably smarter, I suspect that rebase -i melting your brain implies you haven't really tried to understand git :P
<soundnfury> i.e. that you've put it in a mental box labelled "too hard" and run away from it
<Bornholio> not if it requires git -i its broken
<Bornholio> note
<taniwha> considering how trivial rebase -i is, I'd say he hasn't even looked at it
<egg|zzz|egg> ...
<lamont> i’ve been doing parallel development work that lands first in my PEG branch on MJ, then i pull the non-PEG fixes out into PRs against sarbian’s dev, which I then have to rebase my PEG branch back on top of…
<NathanKell> ah, taniwha's here. lamont, did you check in about patched conics?
<lamont> oh!
<taniwha> only just got my coffee made ;)
<lamont> make another one quick!!!
<taniwha> hehe
<lamont> the basic question is what the actual sequence of calls are that get made to figure out the trajectory off of a node
<lamont> because i need to be able to ‘simulate’ that without dropping an actual node
<lamont> and i’m finding that i’m missing ‘outgoing’ interacts with moons
<lamont> *interactions
<lamont> i think i showed you this before
<lamont> i tried asking in the modders corner and got crickets
<taniwha> iirc, PatchedConics.CalculatePatch is the workhorse
<lamont> that makes sense
<lamont> but it feels like i’m missing a critical incantation
<taniwha> well, take a look at PatchedConicSolver.Update
<lamont> hmmmm no docs on that
<taniwha> you will need to take a more controversial look
<lamont> disassembly?
<egg|zzz|egg> soundnfury: I know how it works, I use it regularly, I find that annoying because of the workload required to figure out what will apply nicely and what will not, and I *most definitely* do not appreciate your snarky remarks.
<lamont> or is there just some way i can intercept calls in C#...
<lamont> something something testing frameworks, debuggers, profilers…
<soundnfury> egg|zzz|egg: it wasn't meant to be snarky...
<Starwaster> mollyprop....
<taniwha> lamont: yeah, sometimes it's the only way (just don't make a lot of noise about it)
<NathanKell> lamont: ILSpy works a treat
<NathanKell> oh wait you're on Mac, I dunno.
<taniwha> monodevelop is ok
<Starwaster> that's all I use anymore
<egg|zzz|egg> NathanKell: speaking of macs, I can now build principia there myself!
<egg|zzz|egg> (corp mac :-p)
<Starwaster> or actually Xamarin because monodevelop isn't updated as often
<lamont> it sez linux/mac/windows command line client
<lamont> egg: its good you can build principia because i upgraded to 10.12 and now i probably can’t until i take the leap to 10.13...
<NathanKell> egg|zzz|egg: \o/
<egg|zzz|egg> lamont: hm tbh I think I have to update my mac soon
<egg|zzz|egg> lamont: hopefully it won't break principia?
<lamont> principia on high sierra should be fine
<lamont> high sierra on my hackintosh could be a disaster, i think i might buy a new SSD and do a clean install and transfer so backing out is easy...
<awang> egg|zzz|egg: rebase -i isn't _that_ bad, is it?
<awang> Maybe I've spent too much time with git
<awang> Or what soundnfury said
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<awang> I'm also on mac, so I can build as a last resort
<awang> egg|zzz|egg: KSP in git is actually one of those times you don't have to worry about conflicts
<egg|phone|egg> True
<awang> conflicts when rebase -i -ing, that is
<awang> Squashing/fixup-ing updates helps
<awang> lamont: What disaster are you expecting to befall your hackintosh?
<awang> Aw, just realized I missed AGDQ
<Starwaster> awang something might smash it into crapplesauce
<Starwaster> that was probably funnier in my head...
<awang> Starwaster: Yeah, I don't get it :(
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<xShadowx> i got it ;p
<Starwaster> why hasn't someone imported the Utah Teapot into KSP? I think that needs to happen...
<awang> Be the change you wish to see in the world :P
<ProjectThoth> I've tried, but no matter what I do, I can't bring trilobites back. :/
<blowfish> continue the research
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<lamont> awang: High Sierra has been problematic and buggy
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<Oneiros> so many eggs
<Oneiros> why hasn't anyone sent chickens into space yet, to see if they still lay in zero G
<Oneiros> also it would be funny watching them try to fly
<Probus> Ha! Oneiros
<Oneiros> actually i think all the flapping might propel them somehow, just not the way they
<Oneiros> 're used to
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<Oneiros> switched over to the dev machine. watch out
<Oneiros> all things are possible now
<Oneiros> MAYBE even downloading the 80mb texture pack off github for pap's RSS mod
<Oneiros> big maybe there
<ProjectThoth> Large if factual.
<Oneiros> yup
<Oneiros> but at least i have enough USB ports to plug in a mouse, keyboard and wifi adapter simultaneously
<Oneiros> the laptop only has 2 so I always have to switch between mouse and keyboard when using IRC
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<awang> lamont: That's a complaint I've seen a lot about High Sierra
<awang> The folders should match those in GameData
<awang> Replace the DLLs, and you should be good to go
<Oneiros> ok nice ty
<Probus> De we have a dev version on RP-1 I could try out?
<Oneiros> isnt it rp0?
<Oneiros> or is this the new iteration
<Probus> I think there is a new iteration.
<Bornholio> rp1 is just what we call dev rp0
<Bornholio> but it may get seperated
<Oneiros> ah ok
<Oneiros> god damnit its hard getting texture files off git.
<Probus> Where do they put the dev files Bornholio?
<Bornholio> dev branch, but it needs a couple extra dll's and installs
<Probus> Does it have instructions?
<awang> Oneiros: btw, those DLLs might include some stuff not in the dev branch
<Probus> Sweet! Thanks Bornholio
<Bornholio> also read https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/wiki/Crewed-Science-Extension-(Dev) cause you need wild blue tools for pods to work right
<awang> Oneiros: Actually, never mind, just git diff'd my repos. Shouldn't be any changes from dev
<awang> Minus the recent RP-0 commit for training
<Oneiros> thats ok awang. by the time i get there you guys will probably have released the 1.3.1 version
<awang> Don't get your hopes up :P
<Oneiros> lol
<Oneiros> not sure if i was being optimistic or pessimistic there
<awang> Why not both
<Oneiros> yes, probably lol
<Bornholio> not sure why that first link doesn't go straight to the page .sigh
<Bornholio> git wiki is weird ;p
<Oneiros> so rss isnt required for RO?
<Bornholio> not technically but....
<Bornholio> lots of things aren't technically
<Oneiros> oh nvm
<Probus> Falcon Heavy test firing has been slipped to Tuesday.
<Bornholio> fudge
<Oneiros> now im not even sure which way to fly to go to orbit
<Probus> Oneiros: Up
<Bornholio> fly to the icewall then fall over
<Oneiros> ok ty, seems pretty close
<Bornholio> what launch site Oneiros
<Oneiros> just the standard, all i have installed is rss
<Oneiros> and principia in a sec. but the sun seems very dark now.
<Bornholio> then easy orbit is east :P
<Oneiros> but now the launch site is very far north of the equator
<Bornholio> learning how to dogleg, ie combine a plane change with ap/pe change is your first task, then how to do launch to plane. most real world orbital inclinations are above KCT so its easy to hit them. An the 0deg Inclination of a Geostationary is easy since you are so far away the plane change is only a few hundred or even less if you can do some dogleg
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<Oneiros> ya i used to dogleg when going to minmus
<Bornholio> you also may want to try lamonts dev Mech Jeb
<Oneiros> i think it was just a 3 degree inclination tho
<Bornholio> PEG for ascents is nice when you have RO since it can handle single ignition burns to orbit
<Oneiros> peg?
<Oneiros> i think rss might be too big. its huge.
<Oneiros> or maybe stock ksp rockets are mostly too small.
<Bornholio> lol, yes, minimum for RSS is smurff
<Bornholio> you will need 9600-10.3k with kerbal rockets to get to orbit
<Oneiros> sheeeeeeet ok ty
<Oneiros> i think i need an australian launch site. america is so far north of the equator, im not used to so little sun
<Oneiros> it feels like being at the north pole.
<Bornholio> RO is obviously better tho , you have the right kopernicus installed?
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<Oneiros> ya i used the new one
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<awang> Oneiros: Qboid sometimes has explanations for acronyms
<awang> It's case-sensitive though
<awang> PEG?
<Qboid> awang: [PEG] => Powered Explicit Guidance
<awang> Basically space shuttle guidance
<awang> But yeah, Kerbal rockets are severely underpowered compared to real-life ones
<awang> Also, getting to the Moon may be kind of weird in Principia
<awang> Since its inclination changes over time
<awang> Oscillates between 18 and 28 degrees, IIRC
<awang> Looks like it isn't going to matter much if you're launching from Australia, since your inclination is going to be higher at pretty much all points
<awang> *all points in the Moon's inclination oscillation cycle
<awang> I'd guess there's a name for it, but I wouldn't know what it is
<Oneiros> ok ty
<Oneiros> i dont mind the extra deltaV as long as i have my sunshine
<Oneiros> nice, made orbit. this is way more epic.
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<Sarbian> lamont: "is there just some way i can intercept calls in C" https://github.com/pardeike/Harmony
<Bornholio> ooh
<Sarbian> C# <=
<Sarbian> One missing char is important :D
<Sarbian> lamont: also, are you near a merge with MJ code ? I am considering moving to C# 7 soonish.
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<lamont> sarbian: cool
<lamont> and no, not near a merge right now, got sick, got a bunch of stuff in flight
<lamont> sarbian: hrm, i’m still on mono 4.8.0 which is not C# 7.0
<Sarbian> C# 6 ?
<lamont> certainly not 7.0 because that is in the release notes of 5.0.0
<lamont> lulz
<lamont> mono (4.2.1.102_1, 4.2.2.30, 4.2.3.4, 4.6.1.5, 4.8.1.0) < 5.4.1.6
<lamont> apparently i’m just way way behind in updating
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<Sarbian> ok, I ll work on the new UI code for now and will do the C#7 jump later
<lamont> i suspect in the next 20 minutes or so i’ll have upgraded and it won’t be a concern
<lamont> oh hrm, i did an os upgrade i probably need to rebuild homebrew from the ground up again sigh...
<Sarbian> I wish I had something like homebrew on Windows...
<Sarbian> chocolatey is not there yet...
<lamont> heh yes, i actually wrote the chocolatey_package resource in chef, which was born out of frustration, which led to frustration
<lamont> they’re going through all the phases of becoming a package manager
<awang> lamont: You didn't save your /usr/local directory?
<lamont> upgrades always seem to trash things because system libs that homebrew links against get updated and break everything
<awang> Ah, right
<awang> At least there are bottles for most things?
<awang> Unless you have a lot of custom things going on
<awang> Or are like me and have to compile with ALL the things
<lamont> this time it acutally does look a bit better, so maybe i’m more on the happy path now
<lamont> % mono --version
<lamont> Mono JIT compiler version 5.4.1.6 (tarball Mon Dec 11 14:56:49 GMT 2017)
<lamont> that looks better
<awang> sgen can't come soon enough
<lamont> sarbian: okay good to go with C# 7
<Sarbian> perfect. Any file I should avoid for now to make your life easier when you merge ?
<lamont> nah i’ll just suck up the rebase merge conflict work
<Sarbian> ok
<Sarbian> out variable time !
<lamont> ah that’s cool
<awang> Qt needs more strongly-typed coordinate systems :(
<awang> Local coords, scene coords, parent coords
<awang> Too easy to get mixed up
<xShadowx> did ksp ever gto the new unity that used higher .net 4.somethinsomethin yet?:3
<Sarbian> not yet
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<Bornholio> awang you share 1.3.1 build since rebuild no work is crashed, did scrub, start over ignore russian accent in typing
<Bornholio> also maybe halucination fever
<Bornholio> yeah aje is 1.3.1
<awang> Bornholio: ....Huh
<awang> s/$/?/
<Qboid> awang meant to say: Bornholio: ....Huh?
<Bornholio> ckan release verion is up for 1.3.1 home sick so i was updating the golden spreadsheet
<Bornholio> oh and i was trying to get RO working using your dlls but it was crashing so i'm doing a new clean install
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<wb99999999> hey guys
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<Bornholio> o/
<awang> Oh, so KSP is crashing for you too?
<awang> Huh
<Mike_> ro seems to be working fine for me so far on 1.3.1 using awang's dlls
<awang> You and egg
<awang> >_>
<awang> Inconsistently reproducible crashes
<awang> Fun fun fun
<Bornholio> yes, thus i reinstall since i blame me first
<Bornholio> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A7gQkIiQKi0VtRecE6p86KCKuoawZPdzk7NlaxssRJ4/edit#gid=0 stuff with green yes is ckan'd safely so far :P
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<awang> Looks like pretty much everything is there
<awang> Minus RO stuff itself
<Bornholio> test flight...
<Bornholio> agathorn is MIA for 6 months but it needs a good rebuild
<awang> Rebuild as in just get it to compile or rebuild as in rewrite?
<Bornholio> its cpu heavy, if you get a lot of engines, like a cluster of 2.2kN thrusters it will bog down everything
<awang> Ah
<awang> Sounds fun
<Bornholio> needs a better implementation of timers is my guess
<awang> I like rewriting things, but I'm really bad at actually getting it up and running
<awang> So don't think I'm the person to go to
<awang> Although I can always try
<Bornholio> feel free to take a look. glad you did the compile tho
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<Mike_> i guess we also need someone to merge all those PRs :s
<Starwaster> ok how do I have steering losses if I'm just following my velocity vector? Did the definition for steering losses change in MJ? lamont? sarbian?
<Mike_> was wondering about the same, also noticed that i get way higher ones than nathan on youtube :)
<awang> Starwaster: IIRC MJ's losses are calculated against the orbital velocity vector
<awang> So you get crazy high steering losses at first
<Starwaster> also, lamont: re: your question earlier (much earlier) about MJ transfer node not intersecting with the target, that's probably because of finalizeOrbit in Kopernicus.
<Mike_> awang, that didn't seem to be the case 1 year ago, though
<Mike_> nathan almost doesn't get any at first in his tutorial campaign starts
<Qboid> [e59b4] title: Fix flight recorder gravity/steering losses calcs... by Alex Wang | Additions: 2 | Deletions: 3 | https://github.com/MuMech/MechJeb2/commit/e59b4d37ac859ef054e52368e42627a2cbe33bf3
<Mike_> ah :)
<awang> Mike_: That's because the change was made Oct 31, 2017
<Mike_> makes sense
<lamont> starwaster: yeah steering losses + gravity losses changed
<Starwaster> ok yeah I see how it is
<lamont> steering losses was using the surface velocity vector (which was wrong) it now uses the orbital velocity vector (which is correct)
<Starwaster> ok
<lamont> that means you get more steering losses on launch when you’re burning straight up at a 90 degree angle to your coriolis velocity — which is also correct
<Starwaster> anyway I'd look into finalizeOrbit as far as why your transfer is missing. Moons and satellites are going to be going faster than they would be ordinarily when usijng Kopernicus
<Starwaster> I'd think MJ would still be able to work with that but maybe not
<lamont> and the corrollary is “burning east is 400 m/s of free velocity” is wrong. you have to fight that first with steering losses, but then you get it back so its more neutral
<lamont> yeah i wonder if that’s it — i was going to object that i had been testing in stock but “testing in stock” to me means outer planet mod and like 40 other mods, just no RO/RSS/RP0/1
<lamont> i doubt i’ve tested in stock-stock
<Starwaster> but if no RSS then no Kopernicus?
<Starwaster> or is that what you meant about outer planet?
<lamont> but i have outer planets mod
<lamont> yes
<Starwaster> ok
<Starwaster> try turning off finalizeOrbit in the configs and see if it still does it
<Starwaster> might need to compensate for that somehow
<Starwaster> personally I don't see that the benefits are worth it but that's just me
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