<Bornholio>
starwaster, did you see the pdf i linked
<lamont>
NathanKell: i finally had an epiphany when i realized how idiotic KSPs rotating coordinate basis world frame made everything…
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<Bornholio>
lol agathorn, made me have a 4" AP rocket, tiny pad bounce and red
<NathanKell>
lamont: Ah?
<lamont>
you can’t really trust any vectors from prior frames
<KevinStarwaster>
trust them for what?
<NathanKell>
that they're in the same frame as today's vectors.
<NathanKell>
(frame of reference)
<KevinStarwaster>
yes but why would you want the prior frame's vectors? Are we talking PEG thangs?
<KevinStarwaster>
Bornholio, Got it, thanks
<lamont>
if you want to do something like take a delta-v vector to burn down and then over the course of 10 seconds subtract the accel * time of each frame off of it, it is always going to be slightly off
<lamont>
that vector you’re carrying over would need to be rotated from the last frame into the current frame and then have the accel * tick_time subtracted off of it
<lamont>
more disconcerting is that i may have been having huge problems with figuring out the tangent plane to the desired orbit at the start of the launch and then trying to hit that at the end and stuff like that because as the basis rotates, that vector that i setup at the start of the launch will have rotated, and that is not what i ever wanted
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<lamont>
peg also remembers vgo from the prior update, and although the predictor-corrector will fix up the rotation on every frame, PEG would be more stable if that vgo could be rotated correctly into the current frame
<KevinStarwaster>
I was under the impression that past states were discarded, that only the present was usd
<KevinStarwaster>
used
<KevinStarwaster>
IRL that is
<lamont>
noooooo
<lamont>
you actually have to take the vgo value from the prior update and subtract off the
<lamont>
“sensed” amount of dv since the last PEG cycle
<lamont>
if you don’t the PEG becomes unstable. once i figured that out PEG got a *lot* more stable.
<KevinStarwaster>
hmmm ok
<lamont>
the takeaway on that is that running PEG once per second in KSP like the shuttle did may be a lot more unstable due to world rotation
KevinStarwaster is now known as Starwaster
<Starwaster>
that's bizarre
<Bornholio>
take the difference of the amount you used to be wrong and the amount you next expect to be wrong and add them to the amount you know your are incorrect by now
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: you flew Mercury-Redstone 1?
<Bornholio>
no i flew the mission that was correcly thrown away by all the major powers, strap man to V-2
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<NathanKell>
Wait I thought 1.3.x fixed the "crew mass added to every part" bug
<Bornholio>
what gives the symptoms?
<Bornholio>
lower than expected TWR?
<NathanKell>
MJ reports way more mass
<Bornholio>
K i'll go check
<SpecimenSpiff>
ANyone have an estimate on rp-1 release? I'd hate to spend another evening trying to install manually if it's coming out in few days via ckan...
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: yeah I'm guessing a fortnight
<Bornholio>
what MJ are you using
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok then, for the people who have done it, use CKAN for what is listed in the spreadsheet as available via ckan, github for the rest? Or should I go straight to github for everything?
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: yeah that's what I did (ckan where possible)
<Bornholio>
I tried to state what you should Git master or Dev
<soundnfury>
it was somewhat nontrivial though
<Bornholio>
yup messed up several things so i did it in stages
<SpecimenSpiff>
spreadsheet has AVC listed twice, the second one seems it should be KJR
<Bornholio>
correct ser
<Pap>
Alright, I am ready to install 1.3, what should I use to install? What guide to follow?
<SpecimenSpiff>
realfuels isnt clear. ckan or github? and I assume the testing dll either way
<Bornholio>
yeah, not sure if NK and starwaster figured out if it stomps on other changes
<NathanKell>
RF and KCT from my dropbox
<NathanKell>
(link from RP-0 issues page)
<NathanKell>
all else via the sheet (although some PRs I've merged, IIRC)
<Starwaster>
bornholio if what stomps on other changes?
<Bornholio>
the newcryo vs dev in RF
<NathanKell>
RP-1 is not on newcryo yet
<NathanKell>
use the dll in the dropbox for RP-1 on 1.3.1
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<Bornholio>
feel free to edit the sheet to show anything that is most appropriate to getting it workign right for 1.3.1 :P
<NathanKell>
Problem is what's right for RP-0 isn't for RP-1
<taniwha>
what's the difference between RP-0 and RP-1?
<Bornholio>
kinda my frustration a couple days ago, when trying to get RO/RP0 working in 1.3.1, wasn't possible since the work was only for RP1/developmental
<NathanKell>
sorry...
<NathanKell>
taniwha: Tons of changes
<Bornholio>
so in proper fashion i gave up
<NathanKell>
tree, maintenance, tooling, etc
<taniwha>
so a version-up rather than progress stage?
<soundnfury>
it's effectively save-breaking, if that's what you mean
<taniwha>
as in you would not play through RP-0 then RP-1, but start with RP-1
<soundnfury>
mmm
<ferram4>
On a scale of "LOLSOKERBAL" to "Wailing and knashing of teeth" how will most KSP players respond to it? :P
<soundnfury>
it's a new version
<ferram4>
Wait, gnashing has a g, doesn't it. Derp.
<soundnfury>
they'll hate it, 'cos you actually have to plan ahead
<soundnfury>
ferram4: nah, ksp players will spell it knashing :)
<ferram4>
Kailing and knashing of keeth
<soundnfury>
:D
<NathanKell>
Ok. Procedural Apollo/Saturn V (aka launch cost tester) is done
<Starwaster>
bornholio it won't break anything.
<NathanKell>
Of which 36mil is payload and 88mil is LV
<Bornholio>
k, what is Error - pass specifier detected on an insert node (not a patch) telling me
<Bornholio>
"Error - pass specifier detected on an insert node (not a patch)"
<NathanKell>
that...doesn't even seem that far off reality
<NathanKell>
it means a :FOR/after/before was on an interior node
<NathanKell>
i.e. @MODULE:FOR[foo]
<ferram4>
NathanKell, how detailed is the proc Saturn? Does it do my kind of tank-end shenanigans?
<NathanKell>
I did for the S-IVB then got tired
<NathanKell>
it's really only to test launch costs
<NathanKell>
I wouldn't show it / upload it
<NathanKell>
What matters is the masses and costs
<ferram4>
I know. I'm jst wondering if the differences in setting up for those weird shapes could affect the manufacturing cost.
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<NathanKell>
No
<NathanKell>
It might be 1% more costly, no more
<ferram4>
Ah.
<NathanKell>
It might even be a wash
<ferram4>
So, what's the most expensive part of the Saturn V? THe S-II?
<ferram4>
Or the S-IVB, thanks to the control unit?
<NathanKell>
S-II
<NathanKell>
the IU is only a bit more than 1 J-2
<NathanKell>
The F-1s cost more, but dat LH2 doe
<ferram4>
But as we know
<ferram4>
LH2 is the best rocket fuel evar. :P
<NathanKell>
Hmm, by our cost calcs--and this is maybe because we don't charge enough for LH2 stages--the S-IC is more expensive. 4.5mil per F-1, vs only 1.7mil per J-2
<NathanKell>
(the tankage is ~7mil more expensive, but that's not enough)
<NathanKell>
However I don't discount for independent bulkhead tanks, so...
<lamont>
antimatter
<ferram4>
Hmm...
<Bornholio>
antiprotons or antiplutonium
<ferram4>
> Anitplutonium
<ferram4>
You are like a little baby
<ferram4>
Go for Antioganesson
<ferram4>
I had to look it up
<ferram4>
Because I didn't remember the proper name.
<lamont>
inverse tachyons frozen in a hyperdimensional quadlithium matrix
<Bornholio>
in my pants
<lamont>
route the resultant quantum flux through the jeffries tubes, natch…
<CommandoDiamond>
If you guys had to estimate how close are we to 1.3.1?
<Bornholio>
yeah i vent my jeffries tubes
<ferram4>
We're reaching levels of Treknobabble that shouldn't even be possible.
<ferram4>
CommandoDiamond, assuming no one finds a critical bug in FAR, a release on that can happen in a day or two. For anything else, I can't say. I don't know enough about it.
<Bornholio>
my thoughts are if temp K >3500, stupidfi
<soundnfury>
CommandoDiamond: RP-1 about 1-2 weeks out
<CommandoDiamond>
SoonTM
<Bornholio>
that was 6months ago now its Real(TM) Soon(C, TM)
<CommandoDiamond>
February should be an interesting month
<CommandoDiamond>
Possible RO release
<CommandoDiamond>
and Falcon Heavy I H O P E
<ferram4>
Feb 6th : Falcon Heavy scrub
<CommandoDiamond>
That would be true pain
<ferram4>
Feb 7th: Falcon Heavy scrub
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<ferram4>
Feb 8th: Nothing, because launch scheduled later
<NathanKell>
ferram4: Lawl
<ferram4>
Feb 10th: Falcon Heavy Scrub
<CommandoDiamond>
2020: Its only a week away guys!
<ferram4>
...April 1st: Falcon Heavy launch, scrub at T-1
<CommandoDiamond>
also I just realized
<CommandoDiamond>
I think 2017 was a perfect landing year for the Falcon 9
<lamont>
wasn’t it pretty much perfect outside of mystery-secret-payload-failure-rocket-worked-fine?
<CommandoDiamond>
Yeah idk wtf is going on with Zuma
<ProjectThoth>
Bar graphs are a really weird way of representing the data.
<CommandoDiamond>
seems fine to me
<NathanKell>
Welp, let's see if that helps the launch costs
<Starwaster>
lamont what's up with free LAN? I notice the relevant bits are commented out. Broken?
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: What's a reasonable build rate in the VAB for the Apollo era?
<NathanKell>
6? 8?
<CommandoDiamond>
How do you guys mention people over IRC? I've been seeing people do it
<NathanKell>
5??
<NathanKell>
just use their name
<NathanKell>
most clients highlight that
<CommandoDiamond>
Lemme test
<Bornholio>
some people also have ping words
<CommandoDiamond>
NathanKell Hello World
<CommandoDiamond>
did that work?
<NathanKell>
yes
<CommandoDiamond>
Alright, got it then.
<NathanKell>
Hmm. A/SV launch cost down to 478k on the big pad
<NathanKell>
that's fairly close to right
<Pap>
Nice job NathanKell! All Hail Glorious Leader!
<NathanKell>
:P
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: idk, I think I'm usually at 4 or 5 at that point
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<Pap>
Completely off topic, but if you have not watched it, I think everyone should watch Black Mirror
<soundnfury>
then again, I play early game so much that I rarely get to Apollo :/
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<soundnfury>
o/ BadRocketsCo
<NathanKell>
No thanks Pap. Not my bag. Enough unhappiness in the world I don't need arghorror :]
<CommandoDiamond>
also off topic but, Pap are you still on discord?
<Pap>
CommandoDiamond: Very rarely, I am very rarely at PC for extended periods of time anymore :(
<CommandoDiamond>
oof
<Pap>
2 kids under 2, school and a full-time job are time consuming
<CommandoDiamond>
I'll just PM it to you through here since its more convenient
<Pap>
perfect
<Pap>
When I get pinged, I will usually pop on to see whats up
<Bornholio>
thas why i ping pap atleast 13 times a day
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<Bornholio>
he gets more exercise
<ferram4>
Ah, is that what we're doing?
<ferram4>
We're all pinging Pap now?
<NathanKell>
no one out-pings the eg^gmeister
<ferram4>
egg!
<CommandoDiamond>
long egg
<Bornholio>
yes but combo 3 letter name and ping words galore float
<soundnfury>
stabbity birb nomal
<soundnfury>
hey does KathanNell still ping you?
<Pap>
everything pings NK
<Bornholio>
.smirk
<Bornholio>
okay got some play time, whats on the test schedule
<ferram4>
Try and break FAR
<CommandoDiamond>
I've been interested in testing stuff too
<Pap>
Bornholio: I ned you to come over here and install for me so I can just play
<ferram4>
I mean, that one should be a given, but still.
<CommandoDiamond>
Wheres the current version of RO/RSS that I can use with FAR?
<CommandoDiamond>
current dev version I mean
<Bornholio>
k pap, i'll make a fourth tab on the sheet and go through each mod, then others can correct me
<ferram4>
Current dev FAR (from the github repo) should be good-to-go with any of the RP-1 spreadsheet whereever that is. But I'm not the keeper of that shenanigans.
<CommandoDiamond>
I can find the github but not the dev version
<Bornholio>
branch
<CommandoDiamond>
What branch? (Sorry I'm terrible at navigating github)
<ferram4>
GameData folder.
<ferram4>
Find the dlls, use those
<CommandoDiamond>
So under master...
<ferram4>
There is no special dev version in the releases. Under master, yes.
<ferram4>
Also grab all the other files or install the older version for KSP 1.2.x and overwrite the dlls
<CommandoDiamond>
So ferramgraph.dll Scale_Redist and FAR.dll?
* SpectralRaptor
🔪 soundnfury from being AFK.
<soundnfury>
ytib
<ferram4>
Yes, the dlls
<awang>
If you want KRASH, use this: /Users/awang/Dropbox/ksp/KRASH/KRASH.dll
<Pap>
Bornholio: What is this glorious #3 that allows you to delete things?
<Bornholio>
the folders with the 32bit game information, i'll id them for ya
<Pap>
Bornholio: you have outdone yourself, this is very, very nice
<Pap>
Vens is on there twice, but otherwise, makes my life very easy
<Bornholio>
ah vens, can be either working from CKAN or 50 commits ahead from master
<NathanKell>
Bornholio AWESOME! :)
<NathanKell>
back in a bit, o/
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<Bornholio>
hopefully that list helps and doesn't confuse people, going to add advice to talk about mistakes i've made
<awang>
!wpn -add:adj wet
<Qboid>
awang: Adjective added!
<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn noodle
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon added!
<Starwaster>
wet noodle awang
<Starwaster>
noodle awang
<Starwaster>
how do you use it?
<Bornholio>
1wpn starwaster
<Bornholio>
!wpn Starwaster
* Qboid
gives Starwaster a verbose McBoatFace
<soundnfury>
!wpn awang
* Qboid
gives awang a ██████████████ symbol
<awang>
!u ██████████████
<Qboid>
awang: Too many characters! (Maximum: 10)
<lamont>
Starwaster: could you use the ability to tell PEG that you want to target a 100km orbit and have the velocity there be 4,000 m/s or something like that for contracts?
<awang>
!u ████████
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<Qboid>
U+2588 FULL BLOCK (█)
<ProjectThoth>
chain
<ProjectThoth>
That wasn't the right word, I was thinking of "c-c-combo breaker" and "chain broken," but I couldn't type fast enough.
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: oh, I thought you were talking about bitcoin :P
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: This is good for U+2588FULLBLOCKCHAIN
<Bornholio>
does that roll the current MJ2 stuff into it?
<lamont>
yeah rebased on origin/dev as of a couple hours ago
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<lamont>
also i obviously recomplied for KSP 1.3.1 so NathanKell and other 1.3.1 porting folks can play with it
<Bornholio>
Thanks
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<SpecimenSpiff>
Lamont, do you use the mechjeb dll in your zip, or the one out at the github level?
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<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn Pokémon
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon added!
<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn Pikachu
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon added!
<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn delegate
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon added!
<BadRocketsCo>
o/ soundnfury
<lamont>
SpecimenSpiff: they should be the same, the dll is the only thing that changes so if you’ve already got mechjeb installed that is the only file you need
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<lamont>
but the tar ball or the zip are the ultimate source of truth in case your install gets borked somehow weird
<SpecimenSpiff>
aha ok
<SpecimenSpiff>
the spreadsheet is calling for an older version of scatterer than is on ckan, is that deliberate?
<awang>
If anyone downloaded my KRASH dll, please re-download it
<awang>
I typo'd TestFlightCore as TestFlightcore, so it won't find TF
<lamont>
hrm, looks like the node executor is hella broken
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<SpecimenSpiff>
Im having problems with real fuels
<SpecimenSpiff>
from ckan I get it and everything is fine, but that wont work once I get to rp1
<lamont>
PEG12 will likely be coming very soon
<SpecimenSpiff>
if i just drop the rp-1 dll in, it crashes
<SpecimenSpiff>
if I take from master, there isnt even a plugins fdirectory, I create on and put the dll in there, crash
<SpecimenSpiff>
so what is the correct method for getting realfuel
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<NathanKell>
lamont: Thankee!
<CommandoDiamond>
go to sleep nathan
<NathanKell>
Eh? It's 10:40.
<CommandoDiamond>
Oh
<CommandoDiamond>
Its 1 AM where I am
<NathanKell>
I moved when we got hired by Valve :P
<SpecimenSpiff>
ok, its on the rp-0 page buyt not bornholios install
<SpecimenSpiff>
that would likely be the problem
<SpecimenSpiff>
actually it is, I wonder if he updated while I had it open or i juist missed a row
<SpecimenSpiff>
so forgotten real engines causes mm errors, I understand that's why it wont cache?
<SpecimenSpiff>
is anyone maintaining fre?
<NathanKell>
Dunno
<NathanKell>
Haven't used it myself, despite it being a cool thing
<SpecimenSpiff>
errors such as [ERR 23:52:32.594] Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'ModuleTagHydrolox'
<SpecimenSpiff>
I know nothing about mm scripting unfortunately
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<Starwaster>
has anyone noticed the SSTU engine masses are kind of screwy for real life engines? Also thrust is kind of low... 40% for the F1. I don't see those being adjusted anywhere
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<Starwaster>
typically 50% more massive and 40% of the thrust.
<Mike`>
huh?
<Mike`>
sstu engine masses are fine for me, except if you use clusters, that needs a fix - done it but not yet submitted
<Mike`>
at least so i thought, gonna check the F-1 in a bit
<Starwaster>
mike, when you say 'they are fine for me' what exactly are you basing that on? Their mass and thrust are scaled for stock KSP and this is Realism Overhaul. If they are going to be based on real life engines then they need to be adjusted for a real sized world
<Starwaster>
did you forget what channel you were in?
<Starwaster>
F1 engine... 11 tons
<Starwaster>
F1 engine... thrust 3174 kN
<Starwaster>
the only way I can see the mass as being acceptable is if maybe one were factoring in the thrust structure but other engines configs in RO don't do that. They just base off the actual engine mass
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<Mike`>
well, the thrust was fine last time i checked, and no, i didn't forget what channel this is :p
<Mike`>
i'll check in a bit
<Mike`>
(can you change engine configs btw?)
<Starwaster>
No, the thrust is not fine, it's 40% of what it should be. It might have gotten your rocket off the ground but it's not going to work for what it was intended
<Starwaster>
thrust is only 3174 versus 7770
<Mike`>
...
<Starwaster>
7770 is what it should be
<Mike`>
*my*Ü thrust was fine, as in, it was 7MN, not 3
<Starwaster>
then you've got something patching it that I'm not seeing anywhere in the repository
<Mike`>
can you switch engine configs? the thrust should be determined by your config anyway
<Mike`>
i do use development versions for 1.3 though, not any 1.23 stuff
<Mike`>
1.2*
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<Mike`>
so, Starwaster, my F-1 got 7.74MN thrust and weights 8.39 tons. And i *can* switch engine configs
<Mike`>
as i said, it was and still is fine for me. :)
<Mike`>
If you use the release version, try to use the latest dev versions and 1.3.
<Starwaster>
then you should find what config files are doing that and submit them to the repository
<Starwaster>
it's not in the repository
<Mike`>
so you use the dev version?
<Mike`>
i'm quite sure i only fixed the cluster mass calculation
<Mike`>
i did nothing to get engine configs working
<Mike`>
so i suspect you either don't run the dev version or something might be wrong with your install?
<Starwaster>
or can you POINT me at a file in repository that I'm missing?
<Starwaster>
instead of just saying 'it's fine for me'
<Mike`>
how would i know what's wrong with your install if you don't even tell me wether you use dev or not
<Mike`>
i'm not really an expert with this, either, so i could only guess/do trial and error.
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<Starwaster>
mike I'm not talking about my installation I'm discussing the RO repository where all these files live and where we work on them and submit changes to them
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<Mike`>
Starwaster|AFK and that repository is where i got my working copy from
<Mike`>
and as far as it appears to me, sstu's engines work fine with that repository (dev branch), apart from clustering
<Mike`>
and if it really was a change i made locally and forgot about, we will figure that out and commit it, but i don't think i did anything in that regard.
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<SpecimenSpiff>
Tell @NathanKell|AFK can we look at the electric charge of the A4 guidance unit? It seems to me that thing runs out way too soon, you couldn't cross the English channel that quickly among other things...
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<Probus>
If the Falcon 9 can relight its engines, why doesn't it do a kerbal launch and circularize at apoapsis?
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<Mike`>
because falcon 9 flies on earth instead of kerbin?
<Mike`>
i stopped coasting to apoapsis no later than getting rss, which i played without RO and thus with relightable engines for some time
<Probus>
What do you mean Mike`?
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<Mike`>
i guess doing a continuous burn is more efficient than coasting to apoapsis and relight there which will increase gravity losses - and you also need a high enough twr to be able to coast
<Probus>
I thought it was the other way around, isn't it?
<Mike`>
well, the longer you need to reach orbital velocity, the higher your gravity losses are. And if you turn your engines off during a part of the flight before reaching that velocity, that means you take longer to reach it?
<Probus>
Maybe those losses are more that the efficiency of circularizing at apoapsis.
<Mike`>
you can however just try it - let mechjebs peg do a continuous launch for you and watch how much dv it takes, then try to beat it using relightable engines and a coast period :)
<Mike`>
mechjeb also displays all your losses etc during the ascent so you can compare them
<Probus>
Good thinkin'
<Mike`>
the primary reason why i stopped doing coasting though is simply because my rss rockets tend to have low twr, which means even with a continuous burn, i often reach orbital velocity after apoapsis anyway
<Mike`>
can't turn off the engines there because i need all the thrust i can get
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<APlayer>
Mike: That's actually a normal thing
<APlayer>
Real world rockets can have upper stage TWRs as low as 0.1, the first stage launches the second one on a sub-orbital trajectory with apoapsis well above the target orbit, and the second stage levels that out.
<CommandoDiamond>
The one in logs has the planets in it
<CommandoDiamond>
the other has config, plugins and shaders
<Bornholio>
logs is made during gameplay, kopernicus itself is those three folders inside its folder in gamedata G:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\KSP 1.2.2 Clean\GameData\Kopernicus
<CommandoDiamond>
Other than the log I don't have another Kopernicus folder
<Bornholio>
I'd remove and reinstall both the Kopernicus install and the MFI install then
<CommandoDiamond>
I've already fixed the MFI install
<Bornholio>
kopernicus assuing its 1.2.2-11 should be good then
<Bornholio>
assuming
<CommandoDiamond>
My Kopernicus IS 1.2.2-11 though
<Bornholio>
fire it up and have working solar panels then :/
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<CommandoDiamond>
Bornholio theres still nothing in the info box about the solar panels
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<Bornholio>
ok what RSS are you using?
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<CommandoDiamond>
Version 12.0
<Bornholio>
ah, it might be that you need to downgrade to kopernicus 1.2.2-6 or upgrade RsS and change your textures to scaled RSS
<Bornholio>
I get my clean install to run fine with 12.0 Rss v10.4 textures and Kopernicus 1.2.2-6 with MfI 1.2.4 (this is what CkAn will install on 1.2.2
<soundnfury>
!tell SpecimenSpiff the A4 wasn't under active control all through its flight, once the engine shuts down it doesn't need any more guidance. I believe the current behaviour is correct
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Starwaster|AFK>
commandodiamond the Kopernicus in logs is just Kopernicus specific logs just like it says. It won't hurt anything at all
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<CommandoDiamond>
Alright they're working now
<CommandoDiamond>
Thanks for your help Bornholio
<Bornholio>
sorry it took a bit, normally troubleshooting dev installs
<CommandoDiamond>
Its ok, plus my clouds still somehow work.
<CommandoDiamond>
The downgrade also fixed my Explorer Probe problem, its losing charge now instead of gaining it.
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Probus>
\o
<NathanKell>
SpecimenSpiff: Fair point
<NathanKell>
Probus: Consider this thought experiment: Take a rocket that boosts to apogee and then cuts off, and then circularizes at apogee. Now consider a rocket with half the upper stage engine mass (since any second you're not burning means you have more thrust than you need) and use that free half engine mass for more payload :)
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<NathanKell>
That's an intuitive example for why you don't want to coast.
<soundnfury>
ø NathanKell
<Probus>
That's great NathanKell. Never thought of it that way before.
<soundnfury>
even so, I still don't like upper stages that burn for 15 minutes to reach orbit :/
<NathanKell>
Yes, that *is* inefficient
<NathanKell>
which is why Atlas V/DEC gets higher notional LEO performance despite the higher engine mass
<NathanKell>
(than SEC)
<Bornholio>
thats calculus
<soundnfury>
:)
<NathanKell>
nomzing, o/
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<Bornholio>
[ModuleManager] Error - Cannot parse variable search when inserting new key mainConf = #$temp$ $name$:$name$ looks like in testflight
<Bornholio>
1 error related to GameData/RealismOverhaul/TestFlight_Generic_Engines.cfg
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<NathanKell>
that used to work, Bornholio
<NathanKell>
weird
<SpecimenSpiff>
Hopefully simple dev question: when I hit esc to bring up the dialog, or mission end happens, my flight window appears, even if I had it hidden. I cant seem to find a good code example for what im missing to not show then..
<Qboid>
SpecimenSpiff: awang left a message for you in #RO [28.01.2018 14:58:35]: "Sorry about the KRASH spam, I'll fix that"
<Qboid>
SpecimenSpiff: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [28.01.2018 18:21:39]: "the A4 wasn't under active control all through its flight, once the engine shuts down it doesn't need any more guidance. I believe the current behaviour is correct"
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: are your Hide() and Show() toggles?
<SpecimenSpiff>
basically if I hit ESC, I get a call to ShowWIndow(). Presumably there is some scene flag or something I can find to tell me that no, thats not for me
<SpecimenSpiff>
but looking at various mods, I don't see anything more than I'm doing
<soundnfury>
oh yeah the GUI is unhidden when esc, for F2 purposes
<NathanKell>
don't you have to listen to the event?
<SpecimenSpiff>
yeah, that ShowWIndow method is hooked to the button via button = ApplicationLauncher.Instance.AddModApplication( ShowWindow, HideWindow, null, null, null, null, ApplicationLauncher.AppScenes.FLIGHT, GameDatabase.Instance.GetTexture("RangeSafety/abortbutt
<SpecimenSpiff>
so as far as I can tell, the user hitting ESC or the mission end dialog coming up is no different than the user hitting the toolbar button
<NathanKell>
Ah, k
<NathanKell>
GUI is not my thing, sorry :]
<SpecimenSpiff>
I guess its not the end of the world, but Id like to fix that before I cut a 1.3.1 release
<CommandoDiamond>
The SoonTM release
<NathanKell>
back soon, o/
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<SpecimenSpiff>
NathanKell, also, my wac-corporal cost significantly more than the one youi showed last night
<SpecimenSpiff>
upload craft file so I can check, perhaps?
<Mike`>
lamont, i got a weird issue with peg12-mechjeb - after you fly a rocket with it, the the next time you launch a rocket, peg still thinks it is enabled and actually steers your rocket if you launch it, even though the ascent window shows the "engage autopilot" button
<Mike`>
to disable it i have to click "engage" and then "disengage"
<lamont>
that is kinda weird
<Mike`>
(my brother noticed it too so wasn't a single case)
<Mike`>
and i got coloured lines on my screen but i guess those just visualize PEGs solution :D
<lamont>
yeah i think i’ve got a possible repro here with the node executor
<lamont>
yeah debug lines
<lamont>
i need to make those optional, but it does give good feedback that the module is running
<Mike`>
yep
<Mike`>
all okay
<Bornholio>
is there not supposed to be life support in the HE111 cockpit?
<Mike`>
when i tried it for a launch, it had to corrrect the initial guess quite a bit though, before launch it guessed i only need ~1/3 of my upper stage's fuel but i almost needed all of it, it adjusted its guess during launch - not sure if that is normal behaviour
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: it shouldn't be livable in spaec if that's what you mean :P
<lamont>
that is normal
<Mike`>
atlas centaur peg only NaN'd before launch with this rocket though, and only got a solution later during launch.
<Bornholio>
how does that work, does it leak oxygen or something
<Mike`>
okay. :)
<lamont>
at launch phi is 45 degrees and it clips (the red and yellow lines downrange don’t line up) so its not actually integrating the full launch trajectory
<Mike`>
ah i see
<lamont>
plus it uses a flat earth linear gravity approxmation with hacky gravity integral corrections
<lamont>
so at launch time its mostly a pack of lies
<Mike`>
can it predict before launch then if you have enough fuel/dv for the launch, or is that the rocket designer's job? :)
<lamont>
that is your job for now
<Mike`>
guess it's mostly the latter then, hehe, yeah
<lamont>
a proper trajectory optimizer that didn’t make those approximations would be able to tell you precisely
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: it's not a pressurised cockpit
<Mike`>
are those approximations specific to your current implementation or did the actual shuttle use all those?
<Bornholio>
no how does it work in game, because i'm not seeing any effect stopping me
<Bornholio>
soundnfury^
<soundnfury>
I don't know how it works in game
<soundnfury>
possibly the honour system? :P
<lamont>
(working on that, but it is literally teaching myself graduate level calculus voodoo)
<lamont>
actually shuttle used those
<Mike`>
:D okay, interesting
<lamont>
shuttle only used PEG after booster sep when the approximations would have been a lot better
<Mike`>
yep, i see
<Mike`>
about the enabled/disabled issue, should i submit a github issue, or is it fine telling you here? :)
<lamont>
hrm does RealChute nerf the stock radial mount parachute on vessel already in orbit?
<lamont>
nah, i know its an issue, i just had it happen to me right now
<Mike`>
okay
<Mike`>
am somehow thrilled to test it with boosters where i never had success with atlas/centaur peg, but i guess that has to wait until i'm progressed far enough in my rp-1 career
<lamont>
yeah so PEG12 should have enough dials and buttons that even a stage and a half cetaur can launch with it
<Mike`>
cool :)
<lamont>
set PEG to only be enabled until after the KSP stage when the boosters drop, and setup a manual launch azimuth and it’ll fly your pitch program until you hit spacebar to drop the boosters and then PEG should take over
<Mike`>
it's just beautiful to watch peg launches when everything works :)
<Mike`>
ah right, i saw that option
<lamont>
probably stay away from the coast option, its a bit broken and i have no idea how or when to use it correctly
<Mike`>
:) i guess that's for use with autostaging on?
<lamont>
hrm, yeah probably?
<Mike`>
i wonder if mechjeb's autostage works with ullage, never tried whether those delay inputs work with negative numbers to fire a stage before the previous one burns out.
<awang>
Mike`: It should work in theory
<awang>
I think Starwaster said the functionality is borked right now though?
<awang>
Er, more precisely, it works if you have RCS available
<awang>
I used baby sergeants for ullage and those worked
<awang>
So that's an option too
<Mike`>
okay, but then that's probably not a negative delay/firing a stage before the previous one burnt out? hm
<Starwaster>
awang yes, but I'm not sure if that was all branches or just lamont's PEG10, and he just rebased, so the info might be correct or it might be outdated
<soundnfury>
I think Mike` means fire-in-the-hole staging
<Starwaster>
and yes don't use coast or you may not go to space today
<Mike`>
well, i wonder both about hotstaging and staging with ullage motors
<Starwaster>
ullage motors are just little SRBs, there's not an issue with them staging
<Mike`>
even with ullage motors, you want to fire your engine before then ullage motors burn out, right? :)
<lamont>
should really have a staging planner in mechjeb to handle timed dropping of stages, certain stages that need to fire when the previous stage isn’t burned out, etc.
<lamont>
throttle down of core engines, etc
<Starwaster>
I assume you mean of specific core engines?
<lamont>
afaik hotstaging and autostaging is totally broken, it stages immediately
<Mike`>
okay
<Mike`>
Starwaster, no? Just normal engines that require ullage
<awang>
Mike`: At least in the past there was a short grace period where you could ignite your main engines shortly after your ullage motors burn out
<awang>
idk if that was intentional
<Starwaster>
ok that's not anything to do with staging mike
<awang>
Or if it still does that
<lamont>
yeah like the delta IV heavy does, it throttles down the core after a minute-ish so that the boosters deliver it with more fuel left, so that fuel doesn’t have to drag the boosters along
<Starwaster>
or what are you talking about?
<Starwaster>
lamont that would be cool
<Mike`>
Starwaster, i'm talking about whether mechjeb can auto-stage a stage x-seconds *before* the previous one burns out, because that would be useful both for hotstaging and ullage staging (in the atmosphere, at least)
<Mike`>
by entering a negative staging delay
<Starwaster>
ullage yes, hotstaging no idea
<Starwaster>
it's just staging an engine. Put the ullage motor either in the same stage as the decoupler or between the decoupler and the engine to be staged after
<Starwaster>
I literally do that ALL THE TIME
<Mike`>
yep, sure, but it is supposed to stage the engine before the ullage motors burn out
<Bornholio>
decouplers make the magik happen
<Starwaster>
decoupler-ullagemotor-other engine
<Starwaster>
using default MJ2 staging delays
<lamont>
if you’re staging high enough up in the atmosphere the fraction of a second delay between staging doesn’t de-ullage the engines
<Starwaster>
LITERALLY all the time
<Mike`>
yep, high enough that's true, i guess
<Mike`>
maybe i should try it some more
<Starwaster>
sometimes even in my sleep I'm moaning ullllaaaaageeeeee
<Starwaster>
must staaaaaaageeeee
<Bornholio>
thats what she said
<Mike`>
:)
<BPlayer>
Well, that escalated quickly
<Bornholio>
my wife just slapped me in the back of the head
<BPlayer>
You deserved it :P
<Bornholio>
not sure why
<Starwaster>
not even going there
<lamont>
heh, so don’t install RealChute if you’ve missions already in orbit with chutes that you want to get back…
<Mike`>
:D
<Bornholio>
lamont yes :)
<Starwaster>
lamont been there got the t-shirt that says YOU KILLED ALL YOUR KERBALS ASSHOLE
<Starwaster>
anyone remember the lunar lander game back in the 70s? CONGRATULATIONS YOU JUST DESTROYED A MEGABUCK LANDER
<Bornholio>
in bars in the eighties yes
<Starwaster>
eh it's a little older than that
<Bornholio>
not in those bfe bars in ND
<Starwaster>
ok point taken
<Bornholio>
I had more nuclear weapons in 20 miles than computers, by a 10:1 ratio
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<Bornholio>
new scatterer and smoke screen releases
<Bornholio>
and for some reason blizzys toolbar not showing up for me
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<CommandoDiamond>
I've that problem before too
<CommandoDiamond>
Check which folder you dropped in Bornholio
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<SpecimenSpiff>
Fun with sounding rockets from my last 1.2.2 rp-1 career. This time I'll have to see how they compare to more convential options on cost effectiveness: https://imgur.com/a/8XiXm
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<SpecimenSpiff>
It was interesting, though not totally surprising, that a bigger upper stage did not result in better performance
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<Bornholio>
what folder CkAN dropped it in, or some other mod stupidly including it in there own
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<CommandoDiamond>
Nathan are you streaming?
<NathanKell|Twitch>
yes
<Probus>
I loved that game Starwaster
<awang>
SpecimenSpiff: What engines are you using on your sounding rockets?
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<SpecimenSpiff>
awang, the "yorkshire" ones were base wac, the "yorkshire+" had the xasr
<SpecimenSpiff>
maybe the aj10-37, but I dont think so
<SpecimenSpiff>
same with the booster, tiny tims, then aerojets