<wb99999999> well before someone fix the side booster staging I am back to good old launch by hand
<stewartx> side booster staging?
<wb99999999> yeah there's a strange bug in MJ-PEG10 on my install
<Bornholio> strange that it doesn't detect them right
<wb99999999> and according to starwaster it's just me
<Bornholio> time for clean folder out, remove MM cache and reinstall?
<stewartx> i'm just getting started with PEG
<wb99999999> I tried to switch to regular MJ
<stewartx> seems pretty awesome tho
<wb99999999> and it had no problem
<wb99999999> strange right?
<stewartx> strange right could be the motto of my modding life :D
<stewartx> unfortunately it's usually PICNIC
<Starwaster> wait what strange bug is just you?
<Starwaster> wb99999999 ^^^ you don't mean the booster problem do you? Because I am seeing that
<wb99999999> oh
<wb99999999> so you are seeing that
<Starwaster> yes
<wb99999999> I misinterpreted what you said yesterday
<wb99999999> so it's a real problem then
<lamont_> wb99: i think sarbian made some patches to that in dev which i would have pulled into my branch
<wb99999999> I see
<lamont_> hrm well what i was thinking of was just this: https://github.com/MuMech/MechJeb2/commit/476835176d30723bc0c5fc991320bce1907caa48
<Qboid> [47683] title: Fix the BS engines fix.... by Sarbian | Additions: 2 | Deletions: 1 | https://github.com/MuMech/MechJeb2/commit/476835176d30723bc0c5fc991320bce1907caa48
<stewartx> what does stable peg guidance mean, that's actively steering the rocket correct?
<wb99999999> stable means it is converged and is doing close-loop guidance
<wb99999999> actually you can hear this in some shuttle launches, a few seconds after SRB separation someone would say "guidance has converged" in the comms
<stewartx> oooh yeah i've heard that
<stewartx> til
<lamont_> stable guidance means not only that it has converged but that the initial manual pitch over maneuver is done and PEG is really in command of the rocket
<stewartx> yup yup that's what i thught
<stewartx> does it use rcs to finetune the periapsis?
<lamont_> yeah it will if its enabled at the end of the burn
<stewartx> i asked for 220km and MECO was when periapsis was at 120km
<stewartx> sorry for the noob questions.
<wb99999999> hah
<wb99999999> I can still do this without autopilot
<lamont_> you mean guidance ended with only a 120km periapsis when you wanted 220km?
<wb99999999> lamont I remember you had difficulties flying low TWR uppers
<wb99999999> the trick is to think forward actually
<stewartx> yes, let me fiddle for a bit and i'll get back to you if i get stuck.
<lamont_> yeah i think the current PEG should be fairly stable with pretty darn low TWR uppers
<lamont_> your booster needs to be capable of hucking them up to achieve a reasonably high apoapsis with a bit of hang time though
<wb99999999> Delta IV is one of the prime example of this I think
<Starwaster> note that just because it says converged doesn't mean you actually have stable guidance!
<wb99999999> DCSS has a depressingly low starting TWR...
<Starwaster> for instance if you set it to start guidance after a particular stage and you get the stage number wrong?
<Starwaster> then you're probably going into the drink
<Starwaster> that didn't happen to me by the way... it... happened to friend of mine. Actually it wasn't even my friend it was... a friend of a friend
<lamont_> yeah it also tries hard to guide rockets to orbit that simply could never make it
<wb99999999> does it?
<wb99999999> I think if your delta V is inadequate it simply wouldn't converge
<Starwaster> it's very conscientious that way
<lamont_> yeah, it doesn’t really give up and fail, what happens is you get “phi 45.00” and then it fails
<lamont_> lowlut?
<Starwaster> lol I'm kidding
<Starwaster> that's an old picture of an old OLD mishap I had
<Starwaster> one of those spontaneous unplanned rapid disassemblies
<ProjectThoth> Probably Exploding Guidance.
<Starwaster> LOL
<lamont_> that’s pretty impressive
<lamont_> i need to get launch to rendezvous working so that you can launch ships right on top of each other
<Starwaster> OH I remember what that picture was from... I was landing something very VERY large back on Kerbin and every time it passed below a certain altitude, physics just went HAYWIRE
<lamont_> i think i will fix the node executor warp bug now
<wb99999999> so I read that serbian patch
<stewartx> Seems VGO is too low https://i.imgur.com/jVbO9J7.jpg, also does an pitch up around first stage jetison
<wb99999999> but I don't know coding...so I didn't really get what is happening
<lamont_> stewartx: oh, that smells like a stage stats bug
<stewartx> ok
<lamont_> make sure to set your root part to something in your payload, like that command module and make sure its not your fuel tanks on your stage there or something
<stewartx> yeah i read that. could it be because i don't actually stage. it's all done automagically through smart parts
<stewartx> the delta v stats in mechjeb are accurate tho
<lamont_> vgo being non-zero like that means something is off in the stage stats
<stewartx> okay, i'll have a poke
<lamont_> PEG thought it had more thrust or less mass than it did
<wb99999999> hmm, unusual booster
<wb99999999> that's a J-2 on a big tank...so I guess strap-on boosters then?
<lamont_> i wonder if i should just cut off based on vgo instead of tgo and then you’d at least reach a much more correct orbit, and the highly negative tgo would be a sign that there might an accuracy issue
<stewartx> what does tgo time to go?
<lamont_> yeah time to go of the burn
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<lamont_> wb99: i can’t see how sarbian’s change or his prior change would have changed anything about SRBs
<wb99999999> I have confirmed that it is more than just SRB
<wb99999999> almost any side booster actually
<Starwaster> OK does PEG Status: FAILED in large red letters mean I AM going to Space today? I forget
<lamont_> yes!
<lamont_> then you’re coming right back!
<stewartx> oh, fuel cells don't work in the warp...
<wb99999999> what?
<wb99999999> they should
<stewartx> they don't for me, depleted most of my service module battery but now that i'm out of warp they are recharging"
<Starwaster> stock modules or TAC or some other mod?
<stewartx> the ones i posted an image of earlier
<Starwaster> ok that has TWO producing modules... one stock and one TAC... I guess depending on waht resources it has available. Kind of tacky to do it that way
<wb99999999> oh I remember about that
<Starwaster> assuming you're giving it H2/O2 because RO?
<stewartx> yeah i know, i'm going to have a dig in the configs and see what's going on
<stewartx> yup
<Starwaster> I'd post in the TAC thread about it then if it's not producing during warp
<Starwaster> also it should be reconfigured to use gaseous O2/H2 instead of liquid form. That way you don't waste your boiloff
<stewartx> yeah i did wonder about that.
<stewartx> apollo used gaseous, right?
<Starwaster> yes
<stewartx> alright so i've got 2 issues, staging and fuel cells. we'll call that a partial success
<Starwaster> supposedly the tanks did not actually have the reactants in liquid form.... instead being supercritical fluid. But for our purposes, liquid is just fine. You'd want heater though just ilke Apollo did
<Starwaster> for reference purposes if anyone wants to incorporate into RO
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<wb99999999> okay, definitely something iffy going on with stage simulation
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<Starwaster> trying to do something very dumb.... I'm trying to get several thousand tons of liquid ammonia into orbit...
<wb99999999> what
<wb99999999> for NTR?
<Starwaster> yes
<Starwaster> the goal isnt dumb but the notion that I'm going to get that uch up there in one launch...
<Starwaster> yeah, PEG is giving me an up close and personal view of its middle finger
<Starwaster> ouch, not as much DV as I thought.... can't tell for sure with this bug
<wb99999999> can I have a look at your rocket...?
<Starwaster> let me put it up somewhere
<Starwaster> basically four double tall Saturn V (1C) stacks
<Starwaster> the side two tanks drain completely fueling all 20 F1 motors
<stewartx> why?
<stewartx> oh ammonia
<Starwaster> yeah... it's kinda heavy
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<wb99999999> OMG
<wb99999999> hmm
<wb99999999> If I was you I'd go for something like a super-sized UR-700
<wb99999999> what about the aerodynamics...?
<Starwaster> it flies
<Bornholio> .smirk
<Starwaster> at least drag's not an issue with that much mass
<Starwaster> it just punches right through the sky
<Starwaster> and... eventually punches back through the terrain
<wb99999999> may I suggest a crazier design?
<Starwaster> actually... I think I can still make this happen
<Starwaster> sure, go ahead
<Starwaster> the crazier the better
<Starwaster> omg... I'm getting it up to 130. I switched to classic ascent...
<wb99999999> make it like this
<Starwaster> it's not going to be enough though
<Bornholio> huh
<Starwaster> uh....
<Starwaster> ok what is that
<lamont_> what does your stage stats look like?
<wb99999999> a famous tower in Shanghai
<wb99999999> the idea was to put that big ammonia blob in the center
<wb99999999> stick booster stages below it
<wb99999999> and have the upper stage "pull" the blob into orbit
<wb99999999> I mean I assume after booster burn out you're in near vacuum right?
<wb99999999> then a pulling rocket wouldn't really matter
<stewartx> lamont_ what should i look for in stage stats?
<Starwaster> ugh a tractor design?
<lamont_> i do side mounted and high in stock all the time with landers or with interplanetary LVNs =)
<wb99999999> yes
<Starwaster> yeah, after booster burnout it's pretty much in space
<lamont_> stewartx: that looks entirely reasonable
<wb99999999> and maybe get some M-1 engines
<wb99999999> god forsaken the hydrolox engine with more thrust than F-1...
<lamont_> seadragon
<wb99999999> that's more industrial furnace than engine, I would argue
<lamont_> stewartx: so what you should check is that when you’re burning your upper stage that all the number agree with all the rest of the numbers from KSP
<stewartx> ok
<lamont_> so stop it with about 40-60 seconds left in the upper before cutout
<lamont_> check that the stage stats for the vessel mass match with the vessel mass from the vessel stats in MJ
<stewartx> i just had a thought, there is an early shutdown of a h-1 engine to maintain g limits, would that be it?
<stewartx> that occurs during the pitchover
<lamont_> hrm possibly
<stewartx> i'll take jeb up
<stewartx> and not shut them down
<lamont_> that should affect predictions before the shutdown though
<stewartx> Well Jeb says he's prepared to do it for science
<lamont_> if stage stats don’t update to reflect the engine being shutdown then that might be your culprit (the TWR / max TWR calc in particular would need to jump when you shut it down for PEG to know anything about it)
<stewartx> kk
<stewartx> ty, i shall read that... again
<stewartx> it's not exactly rocket science
<stewartx> :D
<Bornholio> rokker late christmas gift
<Rokker> Bornholio: REEEEEEEEEEEEE
<Rokker> DOUBLE HORNETS AND FLANKERS
<Rokker> REEEEEEEEEE
<stewartx> that one was 220 x 212 much better
<Starwaster> lamont PEG needs to be able to deal with engine out anyway. it just means it has to burn longer
<stewartx> Jeb reported it felt good
<Starwaster> that's what IGM did for Saturn V and it happened on at least one launch where the center engine shut down early
<stewartx> apollo 6 and 13 had early engine failures
<Starwaster> ok new design
<Starwaster> still 10m boosters tho
<Bornholio> any parts pack have engines that appear in the first couple of engine nodes for dev rp0 other than default sxt and ven's?
<wb99999999> how did you...
<wb99999999> where did that big blob tank go?
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<lamont_> Starwaster: yeah PEG should be able to handle engine out AFAIK
<lamont_> i haven’t tested with Agathorn-enabled for awhile though
<lamont_> the question is just if the stage stats update accurately or if those need to get fixed to be more Agathorn-aware
<Bornholio> lol at HE111 sub orbital flights
<Bornholio> Starwaster, i love seeing your kitteh when i click dre
<Starwaster> ty
<UmbralRaptor> kitty?
<Starwaster> it might be time to give another kitteh the spotlight, this time not a memorial
<Starwaster> yes, you don't know about DRE's kitties?
<Bornholio> Need a Starwaster's Kitteh Flag pack
<Starwaster> hmmmmm could be
<UmbralRaptor> I do not,
<Starwaster> do you HAVE DRE? If so, click the menu icon
<UmbralRaptor> I do not, and somewhat limited in terms of bandwidth.
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<Starwaster> ah well, the last two major editions were each named for one of my cats, In Memoriam
<Bornholio> how do you kill crew then?
<UmbralRaptor> Ah, seems like a reasonable enough naming scheme.
<UmbralRaptor> As long as you don't run out of cats.
<ProjectThoth> "Yeah, these rockets run on souls..."
<Starwaster> how do you kill crew...?
<Starwaster> like, you mean, programatically?
<Bornholio> lol, without DRE i'd kill many less kerbs
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<Starwaster> well the kitties are to look after the Kerbal's souls when you kill them
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<KevinStarwaster> lamont what's vgo agaoiN?
<KevinStarwaster> oh velocity... to go?
<ProjectThoth> Okay, smart people question - how was the DC-X supposed to flip over?
<wb99999999> RCS?
<wb99999999> wikipedia says it has 4 small 2kn gaseous hydrogen/oxygen thruster
<wb99999999> probably used as RCS or steering vernier?
<ProjectThoth> Really, RCS?
<ProjectThoth> I would have assumed it was done with aerodynamic controls.
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Does look like RCS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv9n9Casp1o
<wb99999999> I think aerodynamic controls would not be very effective due to the conical shape of the fuselage
<wb99999999> just recall that time when fins made your rocket too stable and you can't steer it
<wb99999999> and when descending it is unstable
<ProjectThoth> I mean, is it, like... safe to do that?
<wb99999999> safe to...what?
<ProjectThoth> Flip over on the way down.
<wb99999999> wait
<wb99999999> aha
<wb99999999> it has spoilers
<ProjectThoth> It did, but I'm not sure if that's what it used to flip.
<ProjectThoth> This http://stargazer2006.online.fr/space/thumbs/dcx1.gif implies that it's probably the thrusters.
<wb99999999> well, those has 2 kN of thrust
<wb99999999> plenty of power to control the vehicle
<wb99999999> this is almost as powerful as the vernier on the Thor/Delta rocket
<ProjectThoth> And Astronautix also implies that the turnaround was done with thrusters.
<stewartx> starwaster so how do i get from liquidh2 in my sm to gaseous hydrogen that the fuel cell uses?
<wb99999999> the fuel cell has a converter built in
<wb99999999> but you have to find it in the action groups
<stewartx> ok
<wb99999999> well
<wb99999999> thrusters would seem logical aren't it
<wb99999999> it's simply the most straight forward way to doit
<ProjectThoth> I guess you could do thrusters and then a drag flap assembly for stability/control.
<wb99999999> the real thing probably used some FBW magic to co-ordinate the controls
<ProjectThoth> Prolly.
<wb99999999> I am inspired to build a super-light launcher with those RL10 A-3s
<wb99999999> gonna do it now
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<stewartx> wb99999999: https://i.imgur.com/KCFckr1.jpg no converter?
<wb99999999> stewartx you just wait and I'll test the whole thing for you in a moment
<wb99999999> okay...this shall be called...
<wb99999999> the Vulture-9
<stewartx> can't imagine why you chose 9
<stewartx> as the name
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<wb99999999> 9 main engines right
<wb99999999> it's basically electron/falcon9 style
<wb99999999> a cluster of small engines at the lower stage and a single same engine for upper
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<stewartx> figure out the fuel cells?
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<BadRocketsCo> Howdy
<soundnfury> ahoy-hoy
<BadRocketsCo> soundnfury: where do you put all the apollo experiments?
<BadRocketsCo> They're bloody gigantic
<soundnfury> dunno, don't use 'em
<BadRocketsCo> Alright
<BadRocketsCo> Well, my Mars lander AND my jupiter flyby mission were both failures
<soundnfury> how did you manage that?
<BadRocketsCo> Mars lander crashed into the ground because the solid fuel motors didn't slow it down enough for the airbags to be effective
<BadRocketsCo> And the flyby mission had an electrical failure
<soundnfury> electrical how?
<BadRocketsCo> As if in *someone* didn't take into account that the RTG is only enough to power the probe core and not the dish
<soundnfury> ahh
<soundnfury> that's why you use RTFC + time delay to duty-cycle the dish ;)
<BadRocketsCo> RTFC?
<soundnfury> remotetech flight computer
* soundnfury is flying a halifax home and will have to belly-land it because the gear is gone
<soundnfury> oh but we lost anyway for some reason
<BadRocketsCo> Huh
<BadRocketsCo> Ya play arcade or realistic?
<soundnfury> realistic
<BadRocketsCo> Noiss
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<BadRocketsCo> Aaand back from walking the puppy
<soundnfury> ah
<BadRocketsCo> Alright, now I can put crew into my space station and I have 140 days until the Apollo is built
<BadRocketsCo> I hope I balanced my spacecraft well enough this time
<stewartx> howdy
<soundnfury> eyup
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<ProjectThoth> How on Earth was DC-X supposed to survive reentry?
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<oneiros> hey
<oneiros> has anyone done a realism mod for researching parts?
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<Probus> o/
<Probus> What's new with RO? Kinda been out of the loop.
<Probus> Anything?
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<oneiros> not sure, i only just discovered it
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<Probus> Hi Oneiros. I was kinda wondering along the same lines, if any new parts had been added recently.
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<oneiros> i mean the way parts are researched
<oneiros> because im not sure that observing mysterious goo-like substances in space can really help elon musk's tesla get to mars
<oneiros> could be wrong tho
<Probus> :)
<oneiros> hehe
<oneiros> i made a tech tree mod a couple of years ago, and the science system it still a bit silly
<oneiros> *is
<Pap> There is a completely new tech tree as well as a new science system, astronaut training, parts tooling, etc
<Probus> Sweet Honey Luvin' Mama!
<oneiros> oh in RO?
<oneiros> i think a more realistic and fun approach would be to remove the tech tree entirely, have all parts available from the start but require research (time and money). every part starts out maybe 20% less efficient than normal, but research based on testing and using the part can improve it to normal level or better.
<Pap> Oneiros: there is complete agreement with the dev group on your thoughts. There was a Real Science Overhaul that was being worked on, but didn't go too far as people's time went away.
<oneiros> ok i see
<oneiros> i'd be happy to work on it if the group is open to the idea
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<soundnfury> idk about realistic, but I feel fun requires there to be a tech tree, at least for me
<oneiros> do you like the sense of progression and development? being restricted in the beginning?
<oneiros> the stock tree drives me nuts lol
<soundnfury> yes, I _like_ struggling with barely-adequate equipment
<Pap> Oneiros: you should take a look at the new tree. It is unlike anything else done for KSP before
<soundnfury> makes every success that much more satisfying :)
<Probus> ditto
<oneiros> haha
<oneiros> you could still do that if you dropped stock part stats enough
<oneiros> Pap is it integrated with RO already?
<Pap> Oneiros: the dev version, yes
<soundnfury> Oneiros: it's in the dev branches of RO & RP-0, see https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/wiki/Setting-up-for-Development-Install-:Temp-Page:
<oneiros> oh cool ty, ill have a look
<soundnfury> beware: there *are* known bugs, particularly around crewed stuff
<soundnfury> (crew training sometimes breaks; capsules are overpriced about 7x; did I miss anything?)
<oneiros> lol
<oneiros> this looks like a huge project/team
<oneiros> all i really need is the tech tree and stock part tech node assignments. that should be enough to get a sense of it, though i image RO adds a lot of new parts
<soundnfury> don't be fooled. RO development _mostly_ only happens when NathanKell is around
<oneiros> btw Pap I really like your realistic evolution contracts mod.
<oneiros> ahh ok lol
<Pap> Oneiros: you cannot really play RO with stock parts
<soundnfury> the rest of us are just doing little cleanup tasks ;)
<oneiros> ok i see
<Pap> Thanks! The contract system in RO was redone and updated as well.
<oneiros> nice
<soundnfury> (don't get me wrong, NK doesn't do all the work himself; it's just that without him around, we tend to not get much done for some reason)
<oneiros> sounds like a totally new game
<soundnfury> Oneiros: it basically is
<oneiros> haha
<soundnfury> ksp is just the "engine" xD
<oneiros> lol yeah
<oneiros> ive thought that for a while tho
<oneiros> KSP is like the great basis or engine for a game, they just didn't polish it enough
<oneiros> it has a lot of potential for expansion
<oneiros> i hope this works out well for you guys, it looks like you're on a good track
<soundnfury> I just wish squard would open-source ksp rather than slowly running it into the ground *sigh*
<oneiros> hm
<soundnfury> they wouldn't even need to license the art assets, we don't need 'em
<soundnfury> (we have VSR, SXT etc.)
<oneiros> well at some point the mod might outgrow KSP
<oneiros> you could always use unity or unrealengine instead of your KSP engine haha
<oneiros> ofc thats a lot of work but then maybe people would get paid? idk. im just a modder lol
<oneiros> i reckon if the mod got popular enough lord gaben would descend from the clouds with handfuls of cash for all the devs
<oneiros> i reckon if the mod got popular enough lord gaben would descend from the clouds with handfuls of cash for all the devs
<oneiros> :P
<oneiros> anyway i think the time has come to stop rambling and actually try RO lol
<soundnfury> well, if we're lucky NK's seekrit projekt at Valve may turn out to be a KSP replacement
<oneiros> nice
<oneiros> let players send gaben to mars in a falcon heavy copy just when elon launches his tesla
<oneiros> oh and all in VR
<soundnfury> nah, we'll all be too busy *watching* elon launch the tesla xD
<oneiros> true
<oneiros> since its about as likely to explode as any KSP mission
<oneiros> true
<oneiros> haha
<oneiros> it keeps crashing. i guess maybe it doesnt work on KSP 1.3.1
<soundnfury> oh yeah it's currently still on 1.2.2 sorry
<oneiros> yeah, i was hoping it might run at least. o well
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<oneiros> bbl
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<Starwaster> I dont think I can wait a month
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<xShadowx> oops :x
<xShadowx> and ya cant wait a month
<xShadowx> but lol @ sending up a car
<xShadowx> must be nice being filty rich
<xShadowx> id laugh if they sent it to land on mars
<xShadowx> future colonists could explore faster XD
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<wb99999999> allo
<wb99999999> built a small rocket using RL10 A-5 engines for first stage
<wb99999999> discover that hydrolox is very lame for light rocket
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<stewartx> Starwaster: just for you https://i.imgur.com/ZTaFFmp.jpg
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<stewartx> "farewell noble steed
<stewartx> ceres thanks you for your service " https://i.imgur.com/yR4QFcG.jpg
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<stewartx> how can i convert lh2 to hydrogen?
<Ezko_> sounds like something for a specific mod
<stewartx> trying to get fuel cells working
<Ezko_> oh
<stewartx> gaseous hydrogen escapes from procedural service tanks?
<Starwaster> stewartx gaseous hydrogen is generated from service tanks and will be collected if you provide a tank for it
<stewartx> ok, i'll muck around with that on my next mission
<Starwaster> any H2 or O2 tank on the vehicle will collect boiloff from LH2/LOX in a service module
<Starwaster> I think only service modules are set up that way
<stewartx> sweet
<Starwaster> which of course can be used for fuel cells or life support
<stewartx> 15g rentry damn
<stewartx> best way to reduce that?
<stewartx> i suppose running out of rcs propellant would help
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<stewartx> lamont_: how do i know what to set the booster pitch end as?
<lamont_> you guess
<lamont_> its a balacing act, you want to pitch over hard enough, yet still make orbit and not burn up
<lamont_> if PEG engages and you have a lot of high AoA you’ve /probably/ pitched over too much?
<stewartx> yup yup, thanks.
<lamont_> the right answer to that is to be able to run a sim which takes a gravity turn into PEG and feed that into an optimizer and have it spit out the best answer it can find
<stewartx> ahh, just in the wiki it says "Generally what you want to do is program a pitch program which has an ending angle which matches what PEG is predicting"
<stewartx> thought that meant PEG knew what the ending pitch should be already
<lamont_> hrm
<lamont_> no i mean you need to know at MECO what PEG will be predicting, and you need to be able to pitch over right in order to hit that — which is all guess, check and refine at this point
<stewartx> gotcha
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