<ProjectThoth>
Of all the roads not traveled, this one is the most disappointing.
<ProjectThoth>
Though it's a shame they didn't perfect inflatable heat shields back then, it would have been nice to bring the thing back engines-down and not have to fart around with speedbrakes and all that jazz.
<soundnfury>
you want a disappointing-road-not-traveled? read Eyes Turned Skywards ;)
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Already have.
<soundnfury>
heh
<soundnfury>
have you read _my_ ATL?
<soundnfury>
(it's unfinished, and about planes rather than space, but if I do finish it there will be a space sequel...)
<ProjectThoth>
(probably one of the greatest space-centric alternate histories ever written, I have to say)
<ProjectThoth>
I'm also a fan of the S-ID concept, that would have been something.
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<soundnfury>
ooooh, giant Atlas-alike!
<ProjectThoth>
I have to wonder if there's any merit to stage-and-a-half in the age of reuse.
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<ProjectThoth>
The advantage being that you could just cycle end-of-lifetime engines into the sustainer and expend them in a useful manner rather than scrapping them.
<soundnfury>
... hunh.
<soundnfury>
Intriguing, but I think you'd at least want to stick a longer bell on the sustainer engine
<ProjectThoth>
And the skirt could, obviously, be splashed down and fished out of the drink.
<soundnfury>
Also, having to make a lot of first-stage tanks isn't a very SMART idea ;)
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Sure - though you could probably adapt the expansion ratio of an existing engine by sliding an ablative skirt over it.
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: if it's that simple, why don't EOL Merlins get flown on S2? :P
<ProjectThoth>
If you were building one of these from scratch, you wouldn't have the same kind of limitations (I'd imagine).
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<ProjectThoth>
And, well, it doesn't have to be a perfect engine.
<ProjectThoth>
In terms of performance - could probably get away with crappy Isp and still get a useful payload into LEO (hell, the S-ID didn't have altitude compensation and still would have been able to orbit, what, 21 tons?)
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<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: the smaller your payload, the less you can allocate as 'design margin' though
<soundnfury>
Shuttle's problem was that it ate all of its margin and then some, requiring heroic (hence expensive) efforts to maintain a payload that was fixed for political reasons
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<Bornholio_>
ESA is considering it with trbo prop returned fly back motors
<schnobs>
woulda coulda shoulda.
<schnobs>
I'm pretty convinced of the 1950s "Man will conquer space soon" scenario.
<schnobs>
large scale LVs launching on a daily basis, fully recoverable...
<soundnfury>
schnobs: haven't you seen the BFR presentations? Elon Will Conquer Space Soon! /s
<schnobs>
The fun part is that the whole bundle makes a lot more sense than each of it's constituent parts.
<schnobs>
soundnfury: can't say that I'm looking forward to it.
<schnobs>
robber barons in space.
<schnobs>
I've seen that movie. Read the books, to.
<schnobs>
I know a thing or two about how the last "age of exploration" played out. Currently loks like we're set for a repeat performance. I'm actually sad that this seems to be the only way how it could happen.
<soundnfury>
schnobs: ? not a fan of private enterprise?
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<schnobs>
well, for some reason or other it always seems to happen at the expense of everyone end everything.
<schnobs>
on a habitat/colony, the company store may well make a comeback.
<soundnfury>
you say that like it's a bad thing
<soundnfury>
if the colonists know what they're signing up for, it's totally up to them
<soundnfury>
freedom of contract beats paternalism every time.
<schnobs>
pfffrrrrt.
<Bornholio_>
same with government/military ventures, just look at any military base. Sans very rudimentary food
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<soundnfury>
I'd rather be governed by a contract I signed than a constitution I didn't :P
<schnobs>
In my world, the contracts I'm offered are all very similar.
<schnobs>
I have to chose one, or live under the bridge. Those alternatives don't exactly constitude "freedom", IMO.
<soundnfury>
better than getting the contract a plurality of citizens choose, regardless of your own choice
<schnobs>
Though I personally shouldn't complain. My last (iow, current) job pays well, and treats me well.
<soundnfury>
yeah, there might be a reason for that ;)
<schnobs>
Paid sick leave may be the law around here, but you probably know of many ways to make a worker think twice about calling in sick.
<soundnfury>
Ahh, time to distinguish between _legislation_ and _law_ ;)
<schnobs>
And re: plurality of citizens, isn't that just what a constitution is? Every once in a while people can't stand it any more, topple government and start over.
<soundnfury>
if workers are effectually discouraged from calling in sick, and they know before signing that that's likely to happen, then while paid sick leave may be _legislated_, it isn't _law_
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<soundnfury>
however, the legislation has a deadweight cost, because it makes it harder for a business to credibly promise that they _will_ give paid sick leave
<soundnfury>
(so the workers to whom it _is_ worth more than the value to the company of not giving it, don't get it either)
<schnobs>
that's not an option around here.
<soundnfury>
what isn't?
<schnobs>
But "if you call in sick you'll soon have to look for another job" works nicely.
<schnobs>
Not paying. That's pretty well regulated and controlled.
<soundnfury>
uhhh, you miss my point.
<schnobs>
You're not supposed to be sacked either, but that's a bit harder to control for.
<soundnfury>
If everyone's contract says "will give paid sick leave", because the law requires it, it's harder to distinguish between employers who actually _will_, and employers who will sack you if you call in sick.
<soundnfury>
Therefore, employers have less incentive _not_ to be the latter kind, because it won't help them recruit
<schnobs>
May your next waiter have the flu.
<soundnfury>
You're still completely missing my point
<schnobs>
Nah, you do.
<soundnfury>
this is _not_ a question of workers' rights versus corporate profits. Almost nothing is.
<schnobs>
I don't think it earns them that much more, either.
<soundnfury>
It's about, how effective and efficient are our mechanisms for allocating goods (broadly construed) to their highest-valued use
<soundnfury>
Coase Theorem and all that.
<soundnfury>
any legislation you pass to "protect workers" will make both workers and employers worse off, by limiting freedom of contract.
<soundnfury>
(Except in the corner case where it has no effect because literally everyone already does the thing it mandates)
<schnobs>
So, selling your kids into slavery in order to pay of your debt is alright, as lng as you neter into the contract willingly?
<schnobs>
Where "willingly" may be established by offering any alternative to starvation?
<soundnfury>
uhhh, what makes you think you own your kids?
<schnobs>
Hmm. Kids are a thrid party. Strike kids, sell yourself.
<soundnfury>
if you want to sell your*self* into slavery, sure, go ahead.
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<soundnfury>
Willingly just means you're not being coerced by another sophont. Doesn't exclude 'coercion by nature' (i.e. you would starve otherwise)
<soundnfury>
(Otherwise there would be no such _thing_ as a willing contract)
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<schnobs>
Hmmm. I've learned that this was the idea behind the nanny state: noone should ever *have to* do something he/she/it abhors. People can only be free if they have a minimum of material security.
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<soundnfury>
right, and I am explicitly calling that bullshit.
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<soundnfury>
you should never be forced _by someone_ to do something. i.e., to hell with coercion. But for that to be the case, it is _necessarily true_ that you _can_ be forced by impersonal circumstances to 'do X or starve'
<soundnfury>
(because to prevent the latter, you'd have to have an enforceable right against Society, the enforcement of which would necessarily involve coercion of individual members of Society)
<schnobs>
So, poor people can be explited at will. Keep them busy and underpaid, so you can exploit them again tomorrow.
<schnobs>
If there's enough, exploit them more. With ten applicants waiting, who needs a helmet or gloves?
* soundnfury
notes for the record that under this system, people really don't tend to remain poor for long
<soundnfury>
there may be ten applicants waiting for the job, but as long as there are _also_ two jobs waiting for the applicants, you still have to compete
* schnobs
has gone from one temp agency t the next mnimum wage job for a decade.
<schnobs>
can't call it rank explitation. but there seemed to be no way out, either.
<soundnfury>
* labour regulations, tax law etc. make the cost of hiring an employee somewhere between 3x and 10x their salary (depends whom you ask, probably also on sector)
<soundnfury>
* govt regulation also raises high barriers to entry in many sectors, limiting competition between employers
<soundnfury>
* existence of a minimum wage is a convenient co-ordination method for firms, allowing them to run in effect an oligopsonistic cartel
<soundnfury>
(note that the biggest problem in holding a cartel together is co-ordination / the production of Schelling fences, and the biggest solution is to get the government to regulate you)
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<soundnfury>
as Oscar Wilde might have phrased it... the only thing worse than being exploited by capitalism is *not* being exploited by capitalism ;)
<ProjectThoth>
stratochief: Shuttle was born out of compromise, and it showed. It wasn't a bad vehicle... it just wasn't particularly great at any one thing.
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<ProjectThoth>
It was particularly great at pleasing Congress, and that's about it.
<ProjectThoth>
And, well, returning bulk payloads, that's a useful capability that we've lost for the forseeable future.
* UmbralRaptor
patiently waits for soundnfury to graduate, so they get the fun of being in a group interview with someone with a higher degree and a few years experience. Or the fun of shopping for a healthcare plan, and determining that it's sort of pointless given that the low end ones have $7k deductables.
<UmbralRaptor>
Or just making a budget and noticing that you've left the entertainment line at $0 for years.
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: I'm actually slowly leaning away from the "reuse reuse reuse" mantra, full disclosure.
<schnobs>
UmbralRaptor: if I understand it right, your life being all work and no play is a sign of resources being properly distributed.
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: you _do_ know that I graduated five years ago and have had a job ever since, right?
<soundnfury>
schnobs: you don't understand it right.
<soundnfury>
If resources are properly distributed, those items that your life contains will each be of greater value to you relative to their price than any item that your life does not contain
<UmbralRaptor>
soundnfury: you seem to brush off financial struggles like Rokker, so no?
<soundnfury>
and this makes no observation of the boundaries between 'work' and 'play'.
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: I'm not saying that financial hardship isn't, y'know, _hard_. I'm saying that you don't alleviate it by restrictions on freedom of contract, welfare systems / socialist wealth redistribution, etc; those only make it _worse_, especially in the long run
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: I don't brush off financial struggles
<Rokker>
I'm just not a whiny pussy about it
<Rokker>
also what soundnfury said
<UmbralRaptor>
soundnfury: you live in a country with a healthcare system that is government run and by basically every metric cheaper and better than the more market based ones here, right?
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: define every metric
<soundnfury>
first part yes, second part hell no
<Rokker>
because I feel like we have different definitions of every
<soundnfury>
While the US healthcare system has many and visible failings, the NHS has worse — and what is more, far less visible — failings.
<UmbralRaptor>
Rokker: life expectancy and cost per person come to mind.
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: we literally have someone in #spacex who is in the middle of a lawsuit with the NHS for it's failures of proper care
<soundnfury>
(oh, and if you think that the US healthcare system is "market based" in any meaningful sense, you've clearly never read much Friedmanite economics ;)
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: so not every
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<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: what about quality of care, wait times, etc
<ProjectThoth>
Soooo in other news, I'm sorely disappointed that Lego isn't going to start a realspace theme anytime soon.
<UmbralRaptor>
Rokker: I want to say that the former is rated far better, and the latter is variable but usually better in the UK.
<Rokker>
the governmentalization of healthcare has some very frightening effects, such as that one kid that the parents wanted to seek treatment for but were forbidden to by the govt
<ProjectThoth>
UmbralRaptor Rokker ffs i made a channel for this kind of shit now get out of my realism overhaul
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: the NHS' failings are numerous and well documented outside of Americans who build it up to be better than it is and Brit a who use it to try and prove why Britain is better
<UmbralRaptor>
Rokker: oh, lots of treatments are defacto forbidden in the US system.
<UmbralRaptor>
(ie: you tend to run out of money first)
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: yes but since when has the US govt forbade someone from travelling somewhere to seek a treatment
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptor: if you've been paying attention, you'll know why I find that _much_ less abominable than being de jure forbidden
<Rokker>
UmbralRaptor: and the US system is easy enough to handle if you know what you are doing. ask TheKosmonaut about how his dad negotiated a medical bill down
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: did you see my space station?
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Was it the one that used the babby docking ports, and you had to spacewalk to board it?
<soundnfury>
yup
<TheKosmonaut>
... of all channels
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Then I did, it was pretty sweet.
<Rokker>
TheKosmonaut: oy vey
<soundnfury>
you made anything cool recently & have pics?
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Sadly, not in RO, but I've been working on an all-stock Saturn V.
<lamont>
FWIW you all should probably have commit bits since you’re doing the work on it — collaborative maintenance is the way to go
<Bornholio>
so your saying you would be a pusher :)
<awang>
And you!
<awang>
And me!
<lamont>
*everyone* should be a pusher
<awang>
(cue Oprah "Commit rights for you! And you! And you!")
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<soundnfury>
hmm. I have commit bits, but I don't think I have the admin bits to give _others_ commit bits.
<lamont>
wow last time i flew this titan-2 i took all the paylout out of it just about — 1.55 starting TWR on both stages. this will be rather quick…
<awang>
lamont: btw, might take me a bit to get to testing
<soundnfury>
Pap: oh btw the other thing I was whining about, looks like someone else has already filed RP-0#783 which LGTM
<Qboid>
[#783] title: Fix NewCrewStations.cfg | As I read this, the point of this contract is to send crew to an empty station. But the current requirement is set to only allow the contract to occur when there are less than 3 vacant seats availabl... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/783
<awang>
KSP appears to have decided to start crashing
<awang>
So gotta debug that first
<lamont>
awang: that’s fine, i’m working on cleaning up details
<Pap>
For sure soundnfury someone fixed that one.
<Pap>
This is the first time that I am aware people have made it to the Stations portion of the contracts
<Pap>
How are you getting around the training issues in RP-1?
<Bornholio>
.headswivel ??? tell me too
<Pap>
Bornholio: I cannot add anyone to the all powerful list. I believe that has to be a NK thing
<lamont>
hmmm titan 2 overbuns slightly into 195x184
<soundnfury>
Pap: mostly it's not broken
<Bornholio>
I figured that might be the case pap .sigh
<soundnfury>
only thing seems to be that once you've put someone on a mission, you can't give them Mission training again until the old one expires
<soundnfury>
the rest I've worked around so far with the 'Fill All' button happening to DTRT for me.
<Pap>
Got it
<soundnfury>
(so, correction, it _is_ broken ;)
<Bornholio>
the fill all is black magic fix?
<soundnfury>
heh yes
<soundnfury>
really we need to kidnap NK and get him to work on it some more ;)
<Bornholio>
.poke NathanKell|AFK
<soundnfury>
leave the man alone, he'll come back when he's ready to…
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<Bornholio>
I know i'll go cry myself to sleep
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: or you could try to debug & fix it yourself…
* soundnfury
is around to merge PRs as long as they work on 1.2.2 where I can test them
<lamont>
i did a launch to 25 degrees from 28.608 KSC and it did it reasonably and with 10,000 dV (free LAN). it should be possible to replicate that with launch to plane, but i don’t know what the leading angle should be. that was with a centaur upper doing the last 1,500 dVish to injection and probably ~10 mins total burntime. i suspect a 5 minute titan2 launch to 25 degrees would be comical…
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<wb99999999>
any flight sim players here?
* soundnfury
occasionally flies around a bit in FlightGear…
<wb99999999>
my throttle just kinda...died, after a superficial drop from my table...don't even know what was broken, could use some ideas...
<soundnfury>
sounds like a hardware problem… I'm the _last_ person you want helping you with that ;)
<wb99999999>
just ANY idea
<wb99999999>
I am really confused because it appears the whole thing is dead cold just after that one slight bump
<wb99999999>
it is not even recognized no more when I replug it in
<wb99999999>
like, I am not asking for a "teach how I can fix it"
<wb99999999>
I am asking for a "what's your guess"
<wb99999999>
because I have no damn clue about it otz
<soundnfury>
open it up, look for wires that have come off solder pads, cracks in circuit board, etc.?
<soundnfury>
I don't think it's likely to be anything throttle-specific, it'll just be a "here's a bit of electronics that's damaged", so you'd be better off asking for someone with electronics experience
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<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Does jiggling the cord do anything?
<ProjectThoth>
Does it rattle when you shake it?
<ProjectThoth>
(the unit, not the cord)
<wb99999999>
jiggling didn't help
<wb99999999>
you know what
<wb99999999>
I'm going to find my screwdriver and open the damn thing up just as soundfury said
<wb99999999>
this is the best way to do it
<ProjectThoth>
That's exactly what I'd suggest doing.
<ProjectThoth>
Disclaimer: I have fun with taking things apart, your mileage may vary.
<wb99999999>
OMG
<wb99999999>
dear
<wb99999999>
I tripped on the cable again when I'm standing up for the screwdriver
<wb99999999>
and it dropped again
<ProjectThoth>
literally rip
<ProjectThoth>
Quick, check to see if it works now, wb99999999.
<wb99999999>
don't think that'd fixed it
<ProjectThoth>
u never kno
<wb99999999>
I think this throttle has a curse on it
<wb99999999>
seriously
<wb99999999>
man all I wanted to do was playing some Elite: Dangerous...
<ProjectThoth>
:(
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<wb99999999>
well...it didn't work out
egg|z|egg is now known as egg
<egg>
wb99999999: ask Ellied maybe
<egg>
she does eleggtronics
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<Probus>
o/
<Probus>
Did the Electron rocket have a successful launch?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
wont happen before 2018
<Bornholio>
“with only one day remaining in the launch window Rocket Lab has made the decision to delay an attempt until the new year.”
<Bornholio>
https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/168421-wip131-bugfix-for-jumping-vessels/ Gonna test this and if it works as advertised upvote every possible thing i see from this guy
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<Probus>
Thanks!
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<awang>
lamont: You're a miracle worker, you know that?
<awang>
Still haven't gotten KSP to boot
<awang>
Speaking of which
<awang>
Anyone here use Starwaster's heat pump mod in 1.3.1?
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<awang>
Yeah, looks like the heat pump mod is the source of my woes
<awang>
Don't really get a good crash log, unfortunately
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<ProjectThoth>
Stages tend to fall engines-down, right?
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<lamont>
awang: wait until i get the code i’m working on debugged
<awang>
No spoilers plz :P
<awang>
ProjectThoth: Probably? Heavy engines + empty tanks makes for engine-first descent, I think
<awang>
Probably depends on just how much empty tank you have, though
<awang>
Short fat stages like Black Arrow stage 1 may fly differently