<wb99999999>
maybe an option to force the PEG to engage when remaining pitch started to increase?
<wb99999999>
it never should increase in the first place
<lamont>
that paper describes simulating a gravity-turn-to-closed-loop ascent and then shoving it into an optimizer and letting the computer figure out the right way to patch them
<lamont>
oh “too deep and *VERTICAL*”
<wb99999999>
yes
<wb99999999>
so too little pitch
<lamont>
gotcha, yeah, then that button would help
<lamont>
you can actually edit the pitch rate live
<wb99999999>
usually I'll just use timed pitch program
<lamont>
and i think the emergency pitch adj is also live
<lamont>
so you could change “0.4” to “0.5” and it’ll jerk fairly hard down
<wb99999999>
yeah
<wb99999999>
but maybe you want some sort of preventative measure built-in
<lamont>
tick the AoA limiter before you do that and it should smooth it out
<wb99999999>
personally timed program is just fine for me
<lamont>
i’ll think about it, but i think if you don’t get the pitch program in the ballpark, then its going to have issues…
<wb99999999>
yeah...the situation itself is really on me
<lamont>
this is one of the many reasons why I wouldn’t replace the default stock ascent profile with PEG because i don’t want to have to explain all these issues to game players that expect to hit a button and have it work...
<wb99999999>
because I built a new vehicle and am not familiar with its trajectory yet
<wb99999999>
and got lazy XD
<lamont>
yeah, experience and sim runs
<wb99999999>
but I think it helps to let you know anyway
<lamont>
i mean we’re supposed to be doing booster development runs in RP0 and getting your gravity turn completely wrong is one kind of failure...
<lamont>
yeah, i’m thinking about what to do
<lamont>
the “right” thing to do is simulate it, but that means extracting the PEG routines into something that can run in a sim and adding travity turn integration and then… etc...
<wb99999999>
or maybe just have a tickbox that says "no overshooting pitch program"
<lamont>
well its not really overshooting, PEG is just doing PEG stuff, and your pitch program didn’t keep up
<wb99999999>
well in that case I overshot
<wb99999999>
PEG was fine, but I overshot
<lamont>
i think we have different meanings of overshoot
<wb99999999>
wait, yeah
<wb99999999>
that's not the right verb I was looking for
<lamont>
there might be something that could be done to ensure that the delta in degress always decreased, and to kick the pitch rate up if PEG started crawling away
<lamont>
clamping so that it doesn’t go the wrong direction would be trivialish
<wb99999999>
problem being what if someone intended this to happen, and uses the stage-activation method
<lamont>
right
<wb99999999>
I can't believe I am still capable of thinking XD
<lamont>
i probably wouldn’t patch the peg-after-stage option though, the user told us to only activate after that stage, so we trust them, period, i think.
<lamont>
it can also happen with the timed-pitch-to-gravity-turn option though
<wb99999999>
I think a easy solution is just to let off a message
<lamont>
wish NK was doing vids because he’s a great playtester
<wb99999999>
says "your pitch program is busted, do something now" and let players deal with it
<lamont>
hah yes
<lamont>
i’ve been meaning to patch prevent-unstable-ignitions to throw up a warning like that
<wb99999999>
sounds fine to me
<wb99999999>
but why does it yaw me so much?
<wb99999999>
shouldn't the launch azumith includes the deviation due to Earth's rotation?
<wb99999999>
oh I see...
<Starwaster>
lamont: So, I had a situation where PEG was converged but status was stuck in unguided gravity turn
<lamont>
i’ve patched it (locally) so that won’t happen
<Starwaster>
new release past #10?
<Starwaster>
oh, LOCALLY
<Starwaster>
ok
<lamont>
no, its not even committed yet
<Starwaster>
no reason to commit unless it's mentally ill...
<lamont>
but yeah once PEG converges the ascent guidance state machine never goes backwards, and if the peg update cycle fails, it restores the old guidance
<lamont>
i’m seeing cases where PEG wigs the fuck out though even though it says its converged
<lamont>
i think i need to look at how sensitive the convergence check can be made
<lamont>
or back the gain off for high angles
<Starwaster>
I suspect in my case that a non standard engine might have been responsible... I don't think the SRBs I was using were identifiable as engines. MJ couldn't even provide a proper DV on them
<Starwaster>
gotta remember to follow up on that and see what modulet hat engine is using
<lamont>
ah yeah, if stage stats are busted then PEG will be busted
<lamont>
PEG has to predict the future and needs accurate vehicle info
<Starwaster>
but, once I drop the uncompatible engine, shouldn't I be able to reset PEG and have it go from that point forward?
<Starwaster>
(after that point DV is accurate)
<Starwaster>
hmmm ok weird. the SRB IS standard...
<Starwaster>
ok, must be the decoupler. that's gotta be it, it couldn't identify it as a decoupler so it didn't know the SRB could be staged away?
<Starwaster>
goddamit its not based on the stock decoupler at all. No wonder MJ can't figure out the stats
<lamont>
heh that would do it
<Starwaster>
SSTUCustomRadialDecoupler
<Starwaster>
SSTU has some cool stuff but there's so much non-standard crap everywhere I look screwing up my favorite mods
<lamont>
do you know why SSTU wiggles the engines so much on startup?
<Starwaster>
no idea, I only have a partial SSTU install. I didn't bother with the engines
<lamont>
ah that’s what i’ve got it for
<Starwaster>
I would GUESS however that it's a gimbal issue... try scaling gimbal limit down to 25%
<Starwaster>
oh.... check and see if SSTU engine gimbals use gimbal rate. I'm not sure MJ knows how to deal with gimbal rate. It probably assumes that gimbals respond instantly
<Starwaster>
(which they do by default)
<Starwaster>
see, to me, ALL engines wiggle a lot because my game is patched so that all engine gimbals have a gimbal rate
<lamont>
this is when they should just be pointed at vessel.forward though
<Starwaster>
why?
<Starwaster>
clarify?
<lamont>
going straight up at launch
<Starwaster>
roll?
<lamont>
shouldn’t be until 100m or whatever
<lamont>
i’ll try to pay more attention to the controls though and see if there’s any commands they’re seeing
<lamont>
gimbal rate is an interesting hint
<Starwaster>
yes but roll only has to deviate a fraction for MJ to try to bring it back inline with its starting roll position
<Starwaster>
you launch, it's a bit off, MJ tries to bring it back
<Starwaster>
do that same launch with force roll OFF
<Starwaster>
it probably wont do the wiggle
<wb99999999>
oh, the Black Arrow
<Starwaster>
see, the thing about gimbal rate is that MJ expects to get a certain amount of torque out of gimbals but until the gimbal is fully in position it wont get that expected torque
<lamont>
yeah and possibly when the engines aren’t spooled up MJ gives a very large command to what it sees as a very low thrust engine and then it gimbals and doesn’t gimbal back fast enough as it spools up
<lamont>
right yeah so it pushes it to the rails of pitch/roll/yaw initially and then the engine is slow to respond back
<Starwaster>
maybe it shouldn't look at the current performance but instead base its decisions on rated performance. PID should be enough to correct for that as the errors build up
<lamont>
oh that might be the cause of some wigglies i’ve seen as well.
<lamont>
yeah although it should drop rated torque down when agathorn strikes
<lamont>
having a gimbal sieze would be an interesting failure mode
<Starwaster>
that could well be game over, time to abort
<Starwaster>
unless it's really close to staging that bit
<Starwaster>
wish people wouldn't give me snacks for Xmas.... I swear I can feel my teeth rotting in my head now
<Starwaster>
so, I had a feral cat that I was trying to lure onto my front porch and she was really cagey because she's already been trapped twice.... even tuna fish wasn't doing it. Then I put her brother outside in a crate...
<Starwaster>
BAM!!!! She runs right up to him to investigate
<Starwaster>
then I moved him onto the porch and waited until she came in... pull a string connected to a wooden slat holding the porch door open. SLAM!!!
<lamont>
you rehab them?
<Starwaster>
it's a sanctuary for feral cats.
<Starwaster>
she and her brother have been fed by humans since they were kittens but the whole indoors thing is new to them
<Starwaster>
she's not too keen on being petted but she WILL let me pick her up. (she's not real keen on that either)
<Starwaster>
her brother loves being petted but doesnt let me pick him up
<Starwaster>
originally they were going to be outdoors cats but then things happened and we decided we wanted them in
<Starwaster>
he was easy, he just walked in of his own accord
<Starwaster>
lamont: ok, MJ DOES look at gimbal rate.... (gimbalResponseSpeed)
<wb99999999>
anything nitric acid is bond to be more costly right?
<Bornholio>
depends more on handling requirements, but yes generally
<Bornholio>
of course when you purchase rocket fuel amounts the price is much less. One of the larger costs for nasa is dealing with ruined and waste fuels
<Bornholio>
that pdf i dropped has costs for the in bulk prices for when it was made
wb99999999 has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<Bornholio>
say see irfna on page 48 @ $.22/lb for a bulk buy of 600klbs