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<Bornholio> lamont you poor long suffering dude, every time i see poor comments on sarbians mechjeb thread and then you swoop in and solve the problem.
<Bornholio> also you have two logins :P
<lamont_> lol, well its been pissing me off for ages, so i fixed it =)
<lamont_> and yeah my computer back home is still logged in
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<ProjectThoth> Just delivered the crew to the Duna expedition complex. https://i.imgur.com/wNvzYGX.png
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<Bornholio> fun Thoth. Should do mars next :)
<ProjectThoth> A successful landing! https://i.imgur.com/SNmkFj4.png
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<BadRocketsCo> Hullo
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<wb99999999> aye
<ProjectThoth> aye
<ProjectThoth> C-C-C-APIN'
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: I did it! https://i.imgur.com/SNmkFj4.png
<wb99999999> nice
<wb99999999> I remember your Kerbin departure vehicle
<wb99999999> was all that for landing this?
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Horribly Overengineered (TM), my specialty.
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<ProjectThoth> The lander's ~34 tons with the aeroshell and heat shield, I seem to recall.
<wb99999999> the thing about Duna
<wb99999999> is that you can rocket brake into low Duna orbit, and land on it without much thermal protection
<wb99999999> and you can also use vacuum engine on the surface
<ProjectThoth> Oh, yeah, it was probably overkill.
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Testing implied that I needed a heat shield... I don't think I used a single unit of ablator on the way down.
<wb99999999> strange
<wb99999999> I never needed one
<ProjectThoth> I also wanted it to look the part, like a proper Mars lander.
<wb99999999> I see
<ProjectThoth> Crew rotation was done with a "Rescue" CSM, five crew up, one back down. https://i.imgur.com/wNvzYGX.png
<wb99999999> oh...is this the...
<wb99999999> what was the name
<wb99999999> you based this on that NASA proposal right?
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: It's loosely based off of von Braun's 1969 proposal.
<ProjectThoth> Same with Boeing's IMIS.
<ProjectThoth> The specific design has its roots in a hypothetical crash Mars program that I conceived of, one that would have required commandeering Apollo right after Apollo 11.
<ProjectThoth> Which is why the core of the vehicle is basically Skylab minus the ATM.
<wb99999999> that's fairly crazy
<ProjectThoth> I think I managed to sketch out one that works, let's see if I can put the pieces back together...
<ProjectThoth> Apollo 12's Saturn V would have to be held in reserve, in case something went wrong with Apollo 11, but aside from that, there'd be 9 Saturn Vs available.
<ProjectThoth> Which is more than enough to conduct a flight test of the NERVA stage, a reserve, and assemble the vehicle on-orbit.
<ProjectThoth> I think I concluded that it would make more sense to develop a slightly uprated Saturn IB (by strapping Titan solids to it) than to waste a Saturn V on a flight test of the descent vehicle.
<wb99999999> holy cow it actually worked
<wb99999999> I just did something really crazy
<wb99999999> and it worked
<wb99999999> I basically stuck an Ariane 5 core on top of a Zenit 1st stage
<wb99999999> and with a 20 ton payload it actually can take off
<ProjectThoth> So, basically, SA-508 lofts a boilerplate NERVA stage, SA-509 lofts a live stage, SA-510 through SA-515 assemble the Mars ship, SA-206 launches a suborbital Mars excursion module, SA-207/SA-208 conduct a manned test of the MEM in LEO, and SA-209/SA-210 deliver the flight MEM and crew to the Mars vehicle.
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Nice!
<wb99999999> not sure about aero stability
<wb99999999> trying to launch it now
<ProjectThoth> Adopting FLEM as a landing mode would probably help make such a crash program possible, I should note.
<wb99999999> true
<ProjectThoth> But, hey, it's a fun thing to imagine.
<ProjectThoth> I should get back into RO after I (maybe) bring the crew back from this flight.
<wb99999999> good luck with that
<wb99999999> the return trip should be easier
<ProjectThoth> I have a margin of theoretically 90 m/s.
<ProjectThoth> So it'll be an interesting rendezvous (because the crew doesn't have a means of directly returning to Kerbin), but, hey, as long as it's within the orbit of the Mun...
<wb99999999> yep
<ProjectThoth> I can't wait to investigate the stage-and-a-half I've had on the drawing board for the last week.
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<ProjectThoth> Anyway, interesting find. http://www.kistler.co/K1_Payload_Users_Guide.pdf
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<wb99999999> so...
<ProjectThoth> So?
<wb99999999> basically based a LV around the old NK-33(AJ-26s) É
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Oh, yeah, the K-1 was interesting.
<wb99999999> I don't see a demand for this kind of vehicle though
<wb99999999> it's meant for LEO payloads...
<ProjectThoth> It came into being during the Iridium bubble.
<wb99999999> but...why Ethanol/LOX for OMS?
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<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Storability, I'd assume.
<ProjectThoth> I gotta say, I like Hudson more than the Kistler guys, having interacted with both.
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<wb99999999> the Iridium bubble
<wb99999999> is that the period where there's a lot of expectation of more medium Earth orbit commsat?
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Yup!
<ProjectThoth> That's what Roton was originally intended for.
<wb99999999> I am a little confused
<wb99999999> at about the same time Boeing made Delta III, which is intended almost solely for GEO payload
<wb99999999> and it too was left without a market
<ProjectThoth> Delta III was eclipsed by the Delta IV project.
<ProjectThoth> It's not that Delta III lacked a market, it's just that it was outclassed by a newer and better idea that offered greater flexibility and lower costs.
<wb99999999> Delta IV turned out to be a lot more expensive than what was conceived...
<ProjectThoth> Ah, but in the moment.
<wb99999999> it's sad, I think it is one of the coolest modern LV
<wb99999999> no pun intended
<ProjectThoth> The early history of NewSpace, from Conestoga to SpaceShipOne, is really interesting.
<ProjectThoth> We're basically in the second generation of commercial spaceflight, which is something people tend to forget.
<wb99999999> that's right
<ProjectThoth> And I don't think we're far off from the third generation.
<wb99999999> I would mark the start of the 3rd gen when Blue Origin enter the market officially
<ProjectThoth> Blue Origin seems to be the pinnacle of the second generation of commercial spaceflight. The smallsat market will probably remain an aspect of the second gen.
<ProjectThoth> I think the third generation will begin with SSTOs.
<wb99999999> I really like the design of the New Glenn
<wb99999999> it looks much beefier than the trimmed stick that is the Falcon 9
<ProjectThoth> New Glenn is the first rocket designed from the outset to be a reusable rocket, if that makes any sense.
<ProjectThoth> (and, yeah, I'm obsessed with SSTOs)
<wb99999999> I like SSTOs
<wb99999999> but I don't think conventional chemical rocket is up to the task
<wb99999999> my bet was to wait for controlled fusion to happen
<ProjectThoth> Oh, I think we have the technology to do it right now.
<wb99999999> and have a big fusion powered thermal...thing
<wb99999999> yes, but barely
<ProjectThoth> But as much as I'm a student of Hudson, I'm also a student of Bono.
<ProjectThoth> Drop tanks are a key concept here.
<wb99999999> the Star Clipper
<ProjectThoth> Eugh.
<ProjectThoth> Oh, wait, not eugh!]
<ProjectThoth> Sorry, got my vehicles mixed up.
<ProjectThoth> The thing I'm currently investigating is a 1.5STO, ironically.
<wb99999999> my bet is on techs a bit further into the future
<ProjectThoth> My back of the napkin numbers imply that you could get about 5 tons into LEO with a 500-ton launcher (about the size of Falcon 9's first stage).
<wb99999999> the hard part is to bring it back
<ProjectThoth> Bring it in sideways, rotate for a landing flip.
<wb99999999> I am worried about mechanical stress
<wb99999999> see you can't build is strong enough if you want the fuel fraction you need
<ProjectThoth> That's where the drop tanks come in.
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: Ever heard of Saturn VB/S-ID?
<wb99999999> what is the benefit of this design over a Falcon/New Glenn Style fly back booster?
<wb99999999> I mean I do understand you can bring back all the engines and electronics
<wb99999999> but the complexity and manufacturing cost seems to be tailing the benefit closely
<wb99999999> man I really do like the Star Clipper
<wb99999999> the extending lifting surface, the jet engines for landing
<wb99999999> it's so...60s
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: I firmly believe that full reuse is insanely expensive to develop.
<ProjectThoth> So it's kinda like a halfway road between SMART and full reuse - theoretically could put off full reuse for a few years as flight rates ramp up.
<ProjectThoth> Plus, Rule of Cool.
<ProjectThoth> And Star Clipper is one wicked design.
<wb99999999> man did you see those video of space shuttle launches viewed from an airplane?
<ProjectThoth> I think so.
<wb99999999> it never gets old
<wb99999999> it's one thing seeing a launch from tracking camera of the launch site
<wb99999999> but seeing a small red dot piercing the cloud and the smoke trail arc through the sky
<ProjectThoth> See, this is why I want to sell rockets...
<wb99999999> well...I am an overly emotional person, tbh
<ProjectThoth> wb99999999: I think we're all capable of waxing poetic once in a while, and it's for a very emotional reason that I even want to get involved in the industry.
<ProjectThoth> Because it's fucking awesome.
<wb99999999> I do agree it should happen so that ordinary men and women can go to space, and have the chance to see the human race as a whole
<wb99999999> this is very darn important, after seeing so much hostility and hatred within it...
<ProjectThoth> I just don't feel like sitting around and watching history happen, because that's terribly boring.
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<BadRocketsCo> Halloo!
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<stewartx> https://i.imgur.com/NWxwvD7.jpg anyone know why this design tumbles in the vertical ascent?
<stewartx> https://i.imgur.com/MzxNMel.jpg it's unstable because the col is infront of the com?
<Bornholio> yes and yes
<stewartx> how do i fix it?
<Bornholio> eliminate some of the front drag and maybe push the boosters down
<Bornholio> can you show the top a little closer?
<Bornholio> doesn't look like your col should be that high from the flight pic
<stewartx> ok sec
<stewartx> just trying something
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<petti> way too fat tanks..
<petti> long&skinny works
<Bornholio> unless teh fairing isnt working i'd say that the payload is not the problem
<petti> thinning out those boosters a lot and strapping them higher might help
<stewartx> hmm
<stewartx> yeah that's what i'm trying
<petti> the whole thing looks really stubby, like you don't have enough fuel for those engines
<stewartx> very light payload
<petti> TWR?
<stewartx> only 300kg
<stewartx> 1.38 i think
<stewartx> i was going for a stubby look
<petti> if you have wide engines and wide tanks and a smallish amount of fuel your tanks end up being very short and the weight is too far down
<petti> well stubby is unstable as heck so that's a bad look :-)
<petti> you need a stupid amount of wings to account for that
<petti> well fins, not wings