* soundnfury
is trying to sketch out a lunar fly-by mission without capsules
<soundnfury>
I think I would need to dock about four things together in Earth orbit
<soundnfury>
(translunar taxi with braking stage, part-fuelled TLI stage, tanker to fill it up, spaceplane carrying the crew)
<soundnfury>
then taxi + TLI goes to moon, taxi comes back, propulsively brakes into LEO, docks with spaceplane which brings the crew home
<soundnfury>
horrifying, да?
<Bornholio>
sounds awesome
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<awang>
soundnfury: That sounds... really complicated
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<soundnfury>
awang: ikr
<soundnfury>
this is what happens when you let spaceplanes be first to orbit and don't invent capsules xD
<awang>
Can't aerocapture?
<awang>
Capsules way too expensive to bother?
<soundnfury>
well, capsules were brokenly expensive when I developed a spaceplane
<soundnfury>
I don't think aerocapturing a spaceplane OR an orbital taxi from lunar return would go well
<awang>
Can you make a spaceplane into a poor man's capsule by adding a heatshield?
<awang>
Disconnect the cockpit from the rest of the plane or something
<soundnfury>
basically, I'm roleplaying a world where no-one's put a man in an ablatively-shielded ballistic re-entry capsule (what? like we recover _film_ in? You can't stick a _person_ in that!)
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Never mind me then
<awang>
How difficult is spaceplane reentry?
<soundnfury>
with the spaceplane I've got right now, not too bad — it's mostly stable, though there is a weird roll reversal phenomenon between about 3-6km/s that you have to learn to cope with
<soundnfury>
however, when I tried to design a new spaceplane around the next TL of parts (with the two-man capsule from Prototype Spaceplaces[sic]) it just spun like mad :(
<soundnfury>
s/capsule/cockpit
<Qboid>
soundnfury meant to say: however, when I tried to design a new spaceplane around the next TL of parts (with the two-man cockpit from Prototype Spaceplaces[sic]) it just spun like mad :(
<awang>
Roll reversal? Like you try to roll left and the plane rolls roght instead?
<soundnfury>
well, you roll left, the plane rolls left, then stabbity takes over and rolls it right _further_
<awang>
Huh, that's interesting. Are spaceplanes suppsed to be that difficult to design?
<awang>
Oh
<soundnfury>
I think there's some weird roll-yaw coupling going on
<awang>
So a SAS problem?
<soundnfury>
no, aerodynamic stabbity
<soundnfury>
(though it _does_ go better if you turn SAS off sometimes)
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Statically stable, but dynamically unstable? Does that even make sense?
<soundnfury>
actually it's statically and dynamically stable, but the roll response is dynamically (but not statically) inverted(!)
<awang>
I'm getting confused now :(
<soundnfury>
anyway, it's a pretty fun little vehicle, has an Agena engine, launches on a parallel-staged LR105+2xLR79 (or +2xH-1 in later models)
<UmbralRaptor>
static raptors are much less stabby than dynamic ones.
<soundnfury>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a fish-compatible yxala
<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn soundnfury
* Qboid
gives soundnfury a wave Ляпунов mine
<awang>
soundnfury: pics?
<awang>
I should give a spaceplane a try whenever I get around to starting my manned space program
<awang>
I actually haven't even done the crewed sound barrier contract yet >_>
<soundnfury>
(those are of an early version, working name was Dyno-rod. Now named "Napier")
<soundnfury>
s/no/na
<Qboid>
soundnfury meant to say: (those are of an early version, working name was Dyna-rod. Now named "Napier")
<awang>
Nice!
<awang>
That's actually a lot smaller than I expected
<awang>
Why that particular tailplane design?
<soundnfury>
minimises blanking when it re-enters at about 40° AoA
<soundnfury>
with a single fin it's totally in the fuselage's shadow and the yaw-coupling problem gets a _lot_ worse ;)
<soundnfury>
One slight problem with Napier is that it's basically impossible to land — below about 100m/s there's just not enough pitch authority to keep the nose up. So it has a 'chute slapped on top -_-
<awang>
blanking?
<awang>
The not-being-in-the-fuselage-shadow part makes a lot of sense
<awang>
Didn't realize FAR modeled that
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<awang>
lamont: Am I supposed to still see the PEG line things after PEG shuts off?
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<awang>
TIL the importance of collision avoidance maneuvers
<awang>
Tried to inject to GTO, injected into my orbital insertion stage instead
<wb99999999>
yes
<wb99999999>
this definitely happens
<wb99999999>
that time I got lazy and did not include RCS in my upper stage
<wb99999999>
into the interstage fairing adapter we go
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<blowfish>
awang: I'm not surprised that it's allocating a lot. Lots of string splitting etc happening.
<blowfish>
Is it allocating more than in previous versions?
<awang>
blowfish: Ah, yeah, the string splitting could explain it
<awang>
idk if it's allocating more
<awang>
I just installed MemGraph pretty recently, and noticed that there was quite a bit of GC going on
<awang>
Pause every few seconds or so, which felt like a lot
<awang>
Figured that a good amount of time could be saved if GC did happen as frequently
<awang>
Guess KSP 1.4 will help with that
<awang>
sgen GC, finally
<awang>
I think
<awang>
blowfish: Does MM 3.0 not generate the cache if errors are encountered?
<blowfish>
it does not, neither did the previous version
<acharles>
lamont: I can’t seem to get PEG working for a R7 launch (sputnik 1), which is weird. I’m using “Space Shuttle PEG #3”. I think typing it out has made it make more sense: Does it try to do a ‘dog leg’ if you launch into a 0 degree inclination rather than just going east? (or perhaps more usefully, if you want to launch to the east, what do you do?)
<awang>
2.8.1 didn't?
<acharles>
1.4 will use sgen?
<awang>
I thought I remembered reading about that
<acharles>
I have no idea.
<acharles>
That would be great.
<lamont>
heh yeah, 0 degrees means launch to 0 inclination which will be hilarious
<awang>
Ah, never mind
<awang>
No sgen :(
<awang>
New mono, no new GC
<acharles>
lamont: so, how do I get it to launch to the current (natural?) inclination?
<awang>
acharles: Use your current inclination
<lamont>
28.608
<acharles>
I’m launching from Kourou, so that’s not my inclination. I’m just wondering if there’s an easy way to determine the current inclination?
<awang>
Well, there's a MJ patch I'm sitting on that adds a "current inc" button
<awang>
I should probably get around to making a PR for that
<acharles>
woot
<acharles>
has any of the PEG stuff been integrated into normal MJ?
<lamont>
i put my inclination into my orbit info window
<lamont>
the old not-PEG-PEG stuff is in, the new stuff, no
<awang>
Isn't it there by default?
<lamont>
(i can’t recall — probably?)
<awang>
I don't remember either
<acharles>
I use a mix of MJ and KER, cause KER let’s you display stuff in windows that aren’t interactable.
<acharles>
But yeah, it still displays inclination.
<acharles>
I just got used to ‘0 = go east’.
<acharles>
Even from Kourou, a dog leg to the equator is a bit too far.
<lamont>
yeah i’m patiently waiting for NK to make that mistake on a stream
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<acharles>
Does he still stream?
<lamont>
(that means i’m patiently waiting for him to come back and do some new streams)
<acharles>
Ah, perhaps I was giving him too much credit and assuming you were waiting for him to make the mistake.
<awang>
acharles: Alright, PR made, so just got to wait until Sarbian merges and lamont rebases
<awang>
If you want the "orbital inclination" label to turn orange if your target inclination is below your vessel latitude, add "= si.normal.textColor" to the line above my changes
<acharles>
Ah.
<acharles>
I’ll probably wait, since typing it in is pretty easy as far as workarounds go.
<lamont>
make sure to turn off RS/RO special handling in the uhm “settings” menu i think
<acharles>
Ah, is that ‘better’? :P
<acharles>
And in other news, it’s fun trying to figure out what your apoapsis should be if you have a periapsis of 320km and you want an eccentricity of ~0.03
<acharles>
And thanks (to both lamont and wikipedia for #math)
<lamont>
yeah i abandoned the approach in PEG #3 because i couldn’t fix it
<acharles>
Well, I’ll test it.
<acharles>
with a non-0 inclination target
<acharles>
what does “leading angle to plane” mean?
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<lamont>
for launch to plane of target, its exactly the same variable box
<acharles>
ah
<acharles>
it seems to work, though I keep running out of dv before achieving the orbit I want cause I only have a sputnik 1 r7
<wb99999999>
no upper?
<blowfish>
first R7s didn't have an upper
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<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Training is simultaneously broken and not broken for me
<awang>
I can get proficiency training, but not mission training
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
awang: I and many others greatly appreciate your efforts :) I may not have played KSP in four months or be active in here, but I still read all the things you put out here
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<BadInternetCo>
Howdy
<BadInternetCo>
Does anyone have an idea on how to turn off signal delay in ro?
<BadInternetCo>
I turned it off from the remotetech mod folder but it doesn't woek
<BadInternetCo>
work*
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<awang>
BadRocketsCo2: The settings in the RT folder are just defaults
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<awang>
BadInternetCo: Actual settings are in your save folder
<awang>
You should be able to disable signal delay in the RT window in the space center scene
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Gee, thanks! Just trying to help
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<BadInternetCo>
Ooooh
<BadInternetCo>
Thanks mate!
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<awang>
lamont: Should I expect PEG to perform significantly better/worse if I change the update interval?
<lamont>
it seems like 0.01 for the update interval helps the burnout accuracy
<awang>
How badly does that affect performance?
<awang>
If it does at all?
<awang>
Default is 1 second, right?
<awang>
I've been using 0.25
<awang>
And would you happen to know the update frequency used IRL?
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<awang>
lamont: I'm also seeing the PEG lines after PEG cuts off
<awang>
Is that normal?
<lamont>
update frequency IRL is 1Hz
<lamont>
PEG is designed for potato-puters in 1975, it runs really really fast on modern gaming hardware
<lamont>
i’ve been using 0.01
<lamont>
oh yeah, the PEG line drawing is a hack i need to remove at some point, and its a buggy hack, and it leaves lines on the screen yes
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Guess that might be partially why there's such interest in new guidance algorithms?
<awang>
I'll switch to 0.01 and see how much that helps
<awang>
What are the different colors for the lines supposed to mean?
<awang>
I'd guess that red means orbital velocity, but idk about the others
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<lamont>
colors are sorta randomly picked, they’re in the uh GraphCSE routine or whatever i called it
<awang>
I see
<lamont>
mostly i’ve found it useful for when rgo and rthrust are different to visualize what rbias does and for validating that lambdaDot is orthogonal to lambda/vgo (although there’s that “ortho test” line in the debug output of the PEG window which serves the same purpose now)
<awang>
I'll take a look
<lamont>
which is pretty much TL;DR “internal debugging"
<awang>
I see
<lamont>
“study PEG closely for 3 months and it’ll all make sense” is the extent of the useful documentation i’ve got
<awang>
lol
<awang>
That's pretty bad
<awang>
Still seems like it mostly worked though
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<Bornholio>
lamont lol you recruiting or punishing awang :P
<lamont>
heh, he wants to beta-test my alpha-quality code… i have many helmets he can choose to wear, but he’s gonna need one…
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<Bornholio>
your code is awesome. that first PEG that ran one stage brought the love back to RO launches for me