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<awang> The RO discord is... interesting
<ProjectThoth> awang: Discord 'tis a silly place, let's not go there.
<ProjectThoth> awang: Do you happen to know what timezone the aerodynamics man is in?
<ProjectThoth> (I don't wanna ping him, I know some people get woken up by IRC pings)
<awang> First time I've visited Discord, actually
<awang> I believe he's in US Eastern
<awang> Not that I'm a stalker or anything
<awang> (happens to be on the Principia FAQ, actually)
<ProjectThoth> awang: Ah, jeez, I had him up at 4 in the morning then.
<ferram4> My sleep cycle makes no sense.
<ferram4> Don't worry about it
<soundnfury> o/
<ProjectThoth> ferram4: Too late.
<ProjectThoth> Has anyone actually built a flyback S-IC in RO?
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<ProjectThoth> I'm just itching to try out the nose thing.
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<awang> I like how there's a random shot of a hummingbird in the ArianeSpace Vega launch video
<Bornholio> https://i.imgur.com/WLfgjPO.png yes there is
<awang> ?
<Bornholio> I love it when birds are in rocket video and photos
<awang> Where'd the plane come from?
<Bornholio> also https://i.imgur.com/yHEYAH0.png love landing spacecraft stages. to bad my power ran out and couldn't get it to land
<awang> Feel like I'm seriously whooshing something here
<Bornholio> that is one of my RP1 planes
<awang> Pusher plane, I see
<awang> How does it fly?
<Bornholio> pretty nice, was a bit expensive compared to my pusher puller cesna
<awang> Science stuff drives cost up?
<Bornholio> cockpit and wing were a bit expensive and i should have done land and reset and had less science
<awang> I see
<awang> I thought wings are usually pretty cheap?
<awang> Didn't use proc wings?
<Bornholio> yup
<awang> Why not?
<Bornholio> lazy :P
<awang> lol, fair enough
<Bornholio> ooh yes, pics from my first lifter project came! Is line 144 the one with an error
<soundnfury> Bornholio: yes, it is
<soundnfury> (that said, there's nothing special about Mission Control, that's just the one I happened to hit)
<awang> I don't see it, I think
<awang> Best I can come up with is the logic to get the index for levels seems odd
<awang> But it might make sense if I stare at it more
<soundnfury> hint: fence.
<awang> ...Fence?
<awang> You just lost me there
<awang> Unless you're talking OOB errors
<soundnfury> off-one-by errors?
<awang> out of bounds?
<soundnfury> the error that occurs is an IndexOutOfRangeException, yes
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> Is it that for any facility level greater than 1 you'll always get a IOORE?
<awang> Because levels.Length is technically already out of bounds?
<awang> (assuming facility levels are zero-indexed)
<soundnfury> not _greater_ than 1, no
<soundnfury> remember that KSP internally stores the levels as fractions
<awang> Oh
<awang> That's something I didn't know
<soundnfury> so for a standard three-level facility it's 0, 0.5, 1
<awang> That's... weird
<awang> I can see why it was done though
<awang> idk where the IOORE comes from then
<soundnfury> hint: what happens at max level?
<awang> Oh
<awang> I assumed that code wouldn't even run if the facility were already fully upgraded
<awang> Yeah, (int)(1 * (levels.Length + 0.05)) should be out of bounds
<awang> Unless there's an evil "use one-based indexing" setting you can use
<soundnfury> the fix is to change that + 0.05 to - 0.95
<soundnfury> because you want [0, 1] to map onto [0, len - 1]
<Bornholio> I am officially designer of heavy stuff, this slab lifter is mine all mine https://i.imgur.com/AGqGSY1.jpg
<awang> soundnfury: Makes sense, I think
<awang> - 0.95 instead of - 1 to make sure floating-point fun doesn't break things?
<awang> Bornholio: What do you need a slab lifter for?
<Bornholio> cap a storm water tunnel to anacostia river in DC
<egg|zzz|egg> gmrf?
<awang> gmrf?
<awang> GMRF?
<egg|zzz|egg> gmrf.
<awang> Aww, no Qboid...
<Bornholio> did 'boid die?
<egg|zzz|egg> grmph.
<egg|zzz|egg> nah qboid is here
<egg|zzz|egg> I'm just grumbling
<awang> And here I thought you were using some obscure acronym
<awang> Did someone ping you accidentally?
<egg|zzz|egg> you said floating-point
<awang> Oh
<ProjectThoth> awang: GRMF: Grouchy Moaning, Rough Feelings.
<egg|zzz|egg> moo
<awang> egg|grmf|egg?
<egg|zzz|egg> MOO?
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: [MOO] => Massive Overdense Object
<egg|zzz|egg> MaDCoWS?
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: [MaDCoWS] => Massive and Distant Clusters of WISE Survey
<awang> Wait, is that one actually used in a paper?
<egg|zzz|egg> yes
<UmbralRaptor> Yes
<awang> lol
<egg|zzz|egg> !g "massive and distant clusters of wise survey"
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: https://arxiv.org/abs/1509.01989 [The Massive and Distant Clusters of WISE Survey: MOO J1142+ ...] (159 results found, took 0.40s)
<awang> That's great
<UmbralRaptor> And yes, MOO is the catalog naming scheme.
<Bornholio> here i am floating pointlessly thinking of mooing eggs
<awang> Wonder how much time it took for them to come up with those names
<UmbralRaptor> Bornholio: :D
<UmbralRaptor> awang: apparently a grad student just suggested it one night.
<Bornholio> https://i.imgur.com/AGqGSY1.jpg nother silly pic, this swivel i designed for safety factor 3 load pick of 120 tons (so is is ok to life 360tons, made four of them
<ProjectThoth> There's a "cow jumped over the Moon" joke in here.
* UmbralRaptor used to work alongside M Browdwin and B Decker.
<ProjectThoth> Bornholio: Cool shit!
<awang> UmbralRaptor: That grad student needs a raise
<Bornholio> made in virginia so i didn't get to fondle them
<Bornholio> umbral is there a readable link elsewhere?
<awang> Bornholio: That's the same pic
<UmbralRaptor> ? ArXiv has PDF links.
<Bornholio> yes just noticed .doh
<UmbralRaptor> awang: well, yes. Grad student and all that…
<UmbralRaptor> The entire point of ArXiv is green model Open Access.
<UmbralRaptor> Bornholio: that looks like a statics problem
<awang> Bornholio: That's one heckuva big joint
<Bornholio> it not being 4/20 thats less of a joke :P
<Bornholio> umbral yes, statics for baseline calcs then about four runs of FEA cases for each part to verify peak stress
<soundnfury> finite elephant analysis
<Bornholio> Fancy Elegant Anacondas
<soundnfury> federation of elven archers
<Bornholio> I did see lots of arrows, that gotta be it
<Bornholio> umbral you must have gone drinking with these guys. this article is great, rife with WISE cracks
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<UmbralRaptor> :D
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<lamont> impressive i killed KSP hard enough to not log an exception just with math
<awang> Nice
<awang> The best kind of crash
<lamont> ah looks like it may have been ye olde division by zero
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<lamont> i’m still surprised how hard it crashed KSP
<awang> Me too
<awang> I would have expected Unity to catch that somewhere and log it
<taniwha> division by zero? in ints?
<xShadowx> damn PEBKAC errors
<taniwha> because x/0 and even 0/0 does not produce an FPU exception normally
<lamont> yeah its not division by zero its something i’m doing with C# properties
<taniwha> I did have trouble with doing a = b = c; where a and b were either out or ref parameters
<awang> How would that cause a crash?...
<awang> Or at least a super-hard crash
<taniwha> compiler bug
<awang> That would definitely be a fun one
<taniwha> it took me a day to figure out
<lamont> setting thrust or isp causes a very hard CTD
<awang> Does this.thrust call the thrust getter?
<awang> Recursive overflow?
<taniwha> lamont: it might be stack overflow (infinite recursion)
<lamont> yeah possibly
<taniwha> set in one property calling set in the other which calls set in the first
<lamont> oh i bet it is
<taniwha> same could happen with get, too
<awang> Shouldn't that still cause an exception?
<awang> Not a hard crash?
<taniwha> awang: no, stack overflow is a segfault (linux) or GPF (windows)
<taniwha> very hard crash
<awang> Not in C# though?
<lamont> ah i see it, you have to have a separate variable to save to
<taniwha> yes in C#
<awang> Going off of Java experience though
<awang> Java you get a StackOverflowError, not a hard crash
<awang> C++ I can understand a segfault
<lamont> i was reading some stackoverflow code on what { get; set; } expanded to a little too quickly
<taniwha> more recent runtimes might catch it, but unity's runtime comes from before the big bang
<lamont> and i’m using mono on mac
<awang> Big bang?
<lamont> ironically enough my poor reading of stackoverflow code led to a stackoverflow...
<taniwha> can you think of anything (other than unity's mono) older? :)
<awang> Somewhat surprised it hasn't always been caught, given C#'s inspiration from Java
<awang> idk, I'm not nearly as familiar with C# as I am with Java
<taniwha> might be mono-specific
<awang> And I'm not that familiar with Java
<lamont> i used to have to manage a pile of servers that were runing crappy java 1.4.1 code
<awang> Ouch
<awang> How long did you have to suffer with that?
<lamont> and java 6 was fairly mature at that point
<ProjectThoth> !tell ferram4 Yeah, I'm still on the interstage thing... just wondering if you think a monolithic interstage would handle the heat better (with blowout ports or something to partially restore aerodynamics for the flyback cruise).
<Qboid> ProjectThoth: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<lamont> several years
<ProjectThoth> lamont: Holy ouch.
<lamont> just keep rubbing more flags on the JVM and eventually the garbage collector behaves
<awang> They didn't update, even with Java's legendary backwards compatibility?
<awang> Erasure was for codebases like that
<awang> Ah, yes, GC tuning
<awang> Black art that I'm glad to never have dealt with
<awang> Yet
<lamont> it looks like it got a lot better in 7 + 8
<awang> 8 especially
<awang> Introduced the invokedynamic instruction, which opens the door to lots of magic
<awang> Or so I heard
<lamont> 7 introduced the garbage-first collector
<awang> Just waiting for Project Valhalla to drop
<awang> True value types, finally
<lamont> G1 sounded like it was going to be a big deal
<awang> I think Java 9 deprecated the CMS collector?
<awang> Yeah, I remember hearing a lot about it
<lamont> but all the stuttering in mono caused by collections is very “oh yeah, i bet i know more or less what is going on there…”
<awang> I haven't dealt with programs large enough for it to matter though
<lamont> the CMS collector in java 6 was dope for us
<awang> Isn't that partially because Unity's mono is still on Boehm GC?
<lamont> all 1.4 had was generation stop-the-world
<lamont> and i think the tenured generation was single-threaded even
<awang> At least it was generational
<lamont> true
<awang> Still, ouch
<lamont> we had machines with 20G heaps — back in 2009-ish? where the java devs slurped up everything into heap objects so it would be super speedy
<lamont> major collections took many seconds — and we were a streaming media service
<awang> That sounds... unfortunate
<awang> How frequently did major collections happen?
<awang> And how'd you deal with it?
<lamont> java 6 + CMS helped a lot, plus convincing the devs that the file system buffer cache was smarter than they were
<awang> That must have been a fun conversation
<lamont> so they just mmap’d their data and read it out of a buffer and let the file system handle caching the fat part of the distribution of their data, and allow a little bit of I/O for the tail
<lamont> well they were desperate to dig themselves out
<awang> You can mmap stuff in Java?
<lamont> yes
<awang> wut
<awang> Does it involve sun.misc.Unsafe?
<awang> nio was in Java 6?
<awang> I totally forgot about nio though
<awang> Been a bit too long since I last touched Java code...
<awang> Oh wow
<awang> Introduced in 1.4
<awang> I had no idea
<lamont> yeah
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<Starwaster> wow, so when sending rescue vehicles, I guess it's a good idea to make sure that they actually HAVE the delta-V to accomplish the rescue so you don't have to send ANOTHER craft to rescue the first two...
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<soundnfury> Starwaster: lol
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<ProjectThoth> blep
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