<Bornholio_>
oh and sans awangs dlls to RF from yesterday
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<SRBuchanan>
Holy Balls texturing takes forever.
<soundnfury>
why are you texturing holy balls?
<soundnfury>
also, something something topological genus something holey balls
<taniwha>
so he can make Holy Hand Grenades
<Bornholio>
i held back but no
<Qboid>
Bornholio: Pap left a message for you in #RO [05.02.2018 19:32:40]: "I ran into an issue with your install instructions, but it might be a user error. Procedural Fairings caused my game to crash, removed it and everything loads fine. What is the right version to get?"
<lamont>
but it spins on the “ PartLoader: Part 'FASA/Gemini2/FASA_Gemini_Centaur/LFE_Gemini_Transtage_Twin/FASAGeminiLFECentarTwin' has no database record. Creating.” for line 10 minutes until i got sick of it and killed it
<Bornholio>
weirdness
<Bornholio>
let me look at my entry
<lamont>
yeah very *shrug*
<lamont>
i just nuked FASA and went about my day
<Bornholio>
PartLoader: Part 'FASA/Gemini2/FASA_Gemini_Centaur/LFE_Gemini_Transtage_Twin/FASAGeminiLFECentarTwin' has no database record. Creating. but no stickyness
<Bornholio>
has bad float curves among things. FASA needs lots of cleanup
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<soundnfury>
awang: my FH predictions for today are about 55% scrub, 40% success, 4% failure by criteria (e.g. no/wrong orbit), 1% boomy booms of doom
<Bornholio>
mine is 90 Go for Glory, 10% beavis (FIRE FIRE FIRE)!
<SRBuchanan>
I give it a higher chance of going kablooey myself.
<SRBuchanan>
There's a lot of fun new ways a multi-core can go kaboom.
<SRBuchanan>
Load and thrust not perfectly balanced at Max-Q? That's a RUDdling.
<SRBuchanan>
Engine failure with a flight computer failure to shut off its opposing engine fast enough? That's a RUDdling.
<SRBuchanan>
Someone made a slight mis-estimate of aerodynamic load on the side booster nose cones? Could be a RUDdling.
<awang>
How well did Delta IV Heavy perform on its first few launches?
<awang>
Are there any other rockets that used the three-similar-cores-strapped-together thing?
<SRBuchanan>
Delta IV Heavy actually did well.
<SRBuchanan>
Cavitation issues caused all three main engines to shut down a few seconds earlier than intended, however.
<SRBuchanan>
So it was a partial success/failure by criteria.
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Any idea what people were predicting for success/failure rates?
<SRBuchanan>
However, while it was the first time that Delta IV cores were used as boosters, it was not the first time the Delta IV had flown with boosters.
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
That might help
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<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, loading issues had already been solved for smaller solid boosters.
<taniwha>
one thing to remember is that every new rocket design has the mistakes of earlier designs to learn from
<SRBuchanan>
So it was a question of scale rather than complete new territory for Delta.
<taniwha>
so any failures /should/ be something new
<taniwha>
(assuming the engineers have been doing their jobs)
<SRBuchanan>
Well it does mean that I'm sure somebody at SpaceX said 'hey, what if these three independent cores next to each other causes cavitation in the feed lines?'
<taniwha>
yeah
<SRBuchanan>
But the structural concerns are what seem most likely to lead to problems.
<taniwha>
that will indeed be something relatively new
<SRBuchanan>
Since the Falcon 9 wasn't originally designed with boosters in mind.
<SRBuchanan>
One wonders about the economy of a 'Falcon Intermediate' with expendable solid rocket motors, but I don't think that would fit SpaceX's business model at all. It would certainly have turnaround issues.
<ProjectThoth>
It'd arguably be a pretty cheap intermediary - FH core plus AJ-60 motors plus a high energy stage.
<ProjectThoth>
Expend the solids, recover the core downrange... could match FH's payload to LEO, iirc.
<SRBuchanan>
I think the next logical developmental step for SpaceX is to develop a Raptor-based second stage.
<SRBuchanan>
Higher energy, good testbed for the tech before fully committing to whatever BFR evolves into.
<SRBuchanan>
Obviously it would only be suitable for Falcon Heavy flights.
<ProjectThoth>
Nah. F9 is plenty powerful enough.
<ProjectThoth>
It just suffers from having a comparatively crappy upper stage.
<SRBuchanan>
That's what I mean, though. The standard Falcon 9 upper stage shortsells the Falcon Heavy.
<ProjectThoth>
I think that if you were going to try and build a rocket from scratch, it would have swappable upper stages rather than a multibody first stage.
<ProjectThoth>
(i.e., developing one from scratch right now)
<SRBuchanan>
Eh, the other way around gives you more payload capacity variance.
<SRBuchanan>
Think about how many different US spaceflight platforms have used the Centaur upper stage.
<ProjectThoth>
This is, of course, optimizing from a reuse standpoint.
<ProjectThoth>
Churning out a single stick with SRB attachment points is probably a lot easier than the three unique sticks that SpaceX has to produce for F9 and FH lines.
<SRBuchanan>
Well, actual Atlas, Titan, and the current platform called 'Atlas' despite having little aside from the second stage in common with earlier versions.
<ProjectThoth>
I mean, Atlas V is pretty damn cheap as rockets go, and they ditched Atlas V Heavy.
<SRBuchanan>
Atlas V's a great rocket design.
<ProjectThoth>
I'd imagine that you could serve most markets by changing landing modes.
<SRBuchanan>
I'm looking forward to Vulcan. I think a few of the concepts for it that are being batted around are a bit out there though.
<ProjectThoth>
Light lift - low energy upper + RTLS; medium lift - low energy upper + downrange; heavy lift - high energy upper + downrange.
<SRBuchanan>
I can understand SpaceX's desire to stay away from hydrolox, though.
<ProjectThoth>
Fun fact! By volume, Falcon 9's first stage is almost the same size as the S-IVB.
<SRBuchanan>
It's just not generally worth it.
<ProjectThoth>
Hydrolox is worth if if you're doing high-energy stuff.
<ProjectThoth>
Though I tend to believe in SSTOs...
<SRBuchanan>
SpaceX's been serving the GEO market just fine without it, and still at a lower price.
<Pap>
o/
<Bornholio>
\o
<SRBuchanan>
Kerolox is so much less efficient, but also so, so much cheaper.
<Pap>
Bornholio: My error was actually with Procedural Fairings for All (which is unnecessary)
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: Meh, though they could be doing a lot better.
<SRBuchanan>
I doubt it. The extra expense associated with hydrolox engines and bunkerage is immense.
<SRBuchanan>
An RL10 costs, what, 14 million USD at the low end?
<SRBuchanan>
The Merlin 1D Vacuum probably costs less than a fifth of that.
<ProjectThoth>
RL-10s aren't expensive if you batch buy 'em.
<Bornholio>
.cheer
<ProjectThoth>
Or, I dunno, a three-stage config like BO's doing.
<SRBuchanan>
14 Million IS the batch-buy price.
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: that S-IVB fact gets more fun when you note that an F9S1 core also has ~1 F-1 worth of thrust
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: It's von Braun's nightmare. :P
<soundnfury>
?
<ProjectThoth>
I dunno, I feel like that would make him shooketh.
<SRBuchanan>
Nah, he'd probably just say 'Hey, that's great!'
<ProjectThoth>
Apparently strapping an RS-25 onto an S-IVB makes for a pretty whimpy SSTO.
<SRBuchanan>
The RS-25's pretty capable of SSTO ascents.
<SRBuchanan>
I've never seen anyone attempt it with anything else, actually.
* soundnfury
gives SRBuchanan a Titan
<SRBuchanan>
Sort of surprised nobody's tried to convert an Energia core into an SSTO.
<SRBuchanan>
Eh? Titan?
<SRBuchanan>
The closest real-life attempt I'm aware of was an early Atlas launch. The booster engines that were jettisoned partway up were the only components that left the pad and didn't stay on until orbit.
<ProjectThoth>
SSTOs are certainly possible.
<ProjectThoth>
Reusable SSTOs, on the other hand... :P
<ProjectThoth>
I mean, you could probably get around that with a refueling station on-orbit (it's something I've considered), but that tends to invoke a BDB strategy... which makes SSTOs kind of irrelevant.
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah. Stick an RS-25 onto a big enough tank and it will make orbit no sweat. Good luck getting it back though.
<ProjectThoth>
Unless one considers BDBs as true freighters, like crude oil tankers are nowadays.
<soundnfury>
SRBuchanan: Titan II first stage has the mass fraction to do SSTO.
<soundnfury>
Unfortunately, the engine has *too much* thrust
<ProjectThoth>
Which, I guess, makes sense. A super cheap vehicle like a shrunken-down Sea Dragon would actually have a mission if it was used for depot assembly.
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, you need to be able to throttle for practical SSTO ascent.
<SRBuchanan>
Or shut down some of your engines.
<soundnfury>
SRBuchanan: the Atlas you're thinking of is probably SCORE, btw
<SRBuchanan>
It was.
<Pap>
The OG SSTO
<ProjectThoth>
Baby Sea Dragon!
<Pap>
Sorta
<ProjectThoth>
The problem with that, though, is that a launch company would need to develop and operate two wildly different vehicles.
<soundnfury>
Anyway, there's no reason to do SSTO now that SpaceX have demonstrated the viability of a flyback booster (albeit not the winged one everyone assumed before they came along)
<ProjectThoth>
I'm still a devout student of Gary Hudson.
<soundnfury>
now you just need to develop a winged spaceplane with onboard propulsion, that you can stick on top instead of the second stage
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: Jordin Kare is better. fite me :P
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: 3:00, on the playground behind the gym, mincemeat!
<ProjectThoth>
:P
<ProjectThoth>
Always thought that the DH-1 from The Rocket Company was a neat concept, though.
NathanKell|AFK is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<soundnfury>
A reusable winged second stage with the requisite delta-V is well within current capabilities, doesn't have to have narrow margins
<soundnfury>
\o NathanKell
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah, I'm of the mindset that second stage reuse is in some ways easier than first stage reuse.
<Pap>
o/ NathanKell
<soundnfury>
NK: are you hypéd for FH?
<ProjectThoth>
Lighter, higher crossrange, more of a "free ride" from the atmosphere.
<NathanKell>
For the scrub?
<soundnfury>
oh you :D
<NathanKell>
Expectations Management (tm)
<ProjectThoth>
Though I think what I'm going to wind up doing is testing the waters with the airline approach... solicit some companies for a design with a given payload, launch mass, and turnaround.
<Pap>
NathanKell: I have a working install! I haven't gotten past the loading screen yet, but progress in a week!
<soundnfury>
NathanKell: speaking of managing expectations... how are the cryo tanks going; more generally, when do you think rp-1 will release?
<NathanKell>
Pap: Woot!
<NathanKell>
soundnfury: I need to make the clones. I was hoping to release this weekend tbh, but got busy. Maybe next?
<NathanKell>
That work for y'all?
<soundnfury>
good enough for me ;)
<Pap>
Nah, let's just wait for 1.4
* soundnfury
is eager to get a RIS game started soonish...
<SRBuchanan>
Well, here goes nothing...
<SRBuchanan>
Always a rush when you load a part in for the first time.
<Pap>
Explosions ensue
<SRBuchanan>
Then it diminishes by the third or fourth time...
<NathanKell>
Ah, also, Pap. Bio Sample thoughts?
<Pap>
I think not re-runnable
<ProjectThoth>
CubeSat mod wen
<NathanKell>
Ok!
<NathanKell>
You wanna make that change or shall I?
<NathanKell>
(god, do I remember how?)
<SRBuchanan>
I should make a Cubesat mod!
<SRBuchanan>
We need an hangar mod that allows more zooming in for that to be useable though.
<NathanKell>
think imma stream before supper tho
<ProjectThoth>
Yay, my pink Blackwing erasers will be here by Friday!
<Bornholio>
very nice
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<ProjectThoth>
Eternally grateful that Palomino brought it back, even if it's not a flawless replica.
<ProjectThoth>
Apparently my order was one of the last batches of 602s that shipped with black erasers... they now ship them with more traditional pink ones.
<Bornholio>
ah, are they doing make to order now?
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: Sadly not yet, I'd love if they offered custom embossing.
<ProjectThoth>
(among other things)
<ProjectThoth>
It's just that the 602s now come with pink erasers (like the Chuck Jones edition), vs the black (which I have).
<Bornholio>
i'll get in trouble for buying more writing utensils that and more miniatures unless i paint them
<ProjectThoth>
I don't think I can bring myself to use any other pencil... they're just fantastic writing implements.
<ProjectThoth>
Though I do do a lot of writing, to the point where I have to sharpen about once every day.
<Pap>
Fixed it NathanKell|Twitch
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: I think it's neat how they consulted John Steinbeck's son for the Blackwing 24.
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<SRBuchanan>
I just use gel pens...
<SRBuchanan>
Picked up the bad habit of doing my homework in pen a while back.
<SRBuchanan>
My mindset is that it won't be a problem as long as I don't make lots of mistakes.
<ProjectThoth>
I switched to pencils because I write too fast for most pens.
<SRBuchanan>
Can't say I've ever felt like pens slow me down as long as the roller's good and smooth.
<SRBuchanan>
Obviously a Cheap Bic stick is no good.
<ProjectThoth>
My favorite non-pencil writing implement is... well, frankly, it's a mechanical pencil. :P
<ProjectThoth>
But I have yet to find a pen that I'm really in love with.
<ProjectThoth>
Of course the Pilot G2 is up there, but it's just not perfect.
<SRBuchanan>
Have you tried the narrow-point G2's?
<SRBuchanan>
They're not fast writers - I prefer the broad-point ones for that - but they look wonderful on the paper.
<SRBuchanan>
Dark thin lines without any of the breaks or fades that you normally get with fine ink lines.
<SRBuchanan>
Revolutionized my margin-doodling.
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: I'll have to check it out.
<SRBuchanan>
Sort of hard to make a good model and texture with only a single reference image for most of it.
<SRBuchanan>
Lots of images of it mounted to the Shuttle, but only the nozzle rim and interior are visible in those shots.
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: Nice!
<SRBuchanan>
Thanks.
<SRBuchanan>
Now on to the R-4D-11.
<SRBuchanan>
Or perhaps the Safran 200N/Airbus 220N thrusters for the ATV and Orion service module.
<SRBuchanan>
Both eventually of course.
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<SRBuchanan>
Well, it's time I got some sleep. GN all.
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<soundnfury>
that reminds me, it looks like every engine in the game has gotten an R-4D-11 Test Flight config attached to it
<soundnfury>
(not a problem since there aren't matching engine configs, but still annoying)
<Bornholio>
yes they have
<Bornholio>
not sure from what
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<NathanKell>
the TF part of the global engine config is broken
<NathanKell>
fixing
<NathanKell>
fixed
<soundnfury>
\o/
<soundnfury>
also my save from 1.2.2 seems to have ported cleanly into 1.3.1, and rollout costs in the VAB appear to be correct now, so \o/ \o/
* soundnfury
into zzz now, cya all tomorrow
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<NathanKell>
night all
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<Probus>
Today's the day! Its finally here!
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<awang>
How frequently is ContractConfigurator.Parameters.VesselParameter.OnUpdate()
<awang>
called?
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<awang>
Also, checking some math
<awang>
For TF failures
<awang>
Instead of checking for failure every n ticks
<awang>
Would it be possible to uniformly pick a number between 0 and 1, and integrate the failure chance curve until the area exceeds the picked number?
<awang>
idk if that would actually be less expensive than what TF is doing right now
<awang>
Or at least it would allow failure checks to be reduced to whether time spent ignited is less than the failure time
<awang>
!tell NathanKell* Could you take a look at my RF branch to see if any changes are worth pulling into master?
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Starwaster>
christ is everyone still using ParticleEmitter? I thought to go track down some examples of ParticleSystem so I could convert DR but nobody seems to have done it yet either... not even sure Squad has switched over yet. WTF people...
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<Starwaster>
aah SmokeScreen is. I thought it might be
<lamont>
someone just posted 3:45 and apparently the clock at KSC has started countdown and agrees
<lamont>
yep, back to “live in 2 hours”
<Probus>
Yep
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<Pap>
How long is this launch window? The alarms I have set keep having to get reset
<Pap>
Nevermind, this is just the countdown to the scrub, don't know why I thought it would be different
<awang>
Pap: IIRC it ends at 4:00 EST
<awang>
Or at least that's what the internet told me
<APlayer>
@Anyone with aerodynamics experience: How does this Cd vs. Mach curve look? https://i.imgur.com/bdjDVfB.png Because the supersonic values seem rather low to me...
<APlayer>
Or rather, I guess, the subsonic ones are high
<ferram4_>
APlayer, are you looking at the aerodynamic properties of a flat surface with air hitting it? Because that doesn't look too far off for that.
ferram4_ is now known as ferram4
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I guess you all know, but an hour from now Falcon Heavy is poised to launch..
<APlayer>
Interpolated, sorry for the drop past Mach 5
<ferram4>
Yeah, that's very... approximate.
<APlayer>
The subsonic Cd looks okay to you, though?
<ferram4>
It's probably okay? I mean, what's the reference area you're using?
<APlayer>
27.5 m²
<ferram4>
Well, assuming that the rocket is to-scale with Falcon 9, then the reference area is smaller than the actual diameter of the fairing, so all of this makes sense then.
<ferram4>
Uh... wait. No. Radius would be 3m, so it's working with the fairing....
<ferram4>
Hrm. Something weird there. Maybe the fairing is extremely draggy then? It's kind of a giant tumor of one.
<APlayer>
I did have a few looks at actual numbers, but the rocket is not to scale with F9. Body diameter is 4.25m, fairing maximum diameter is 5.25m
<APlayer>
Removing the launch clamps has no effect of the Ref. Area and a negligible one of Cd
<APlayer>
At least on the subsonic Cd, that is
<lamont>
livestream is up with music
<ferram4>
Hmm. Maybe it's something to do with the landing legs or the fins? *shrug*
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<APlayer>
I will check that later, but intently staring at the FH stream now
<APlayer>
Thank you very much for helping so far!
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<APlayer>
OK, actual stream is live
<Pap>
So excited!
<lamont>
it survived fuel loading, looking reasonably good for the pad to survive
<awang>
What's going on there to cause so much cheering
<lamont>
everyone names are going into space on a plaque
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<awang>
....Really?
<awang>
Oh, they aren't loading all three cores at the same time/rate?
<awang>
Also, I thought chilldown for second stage started later
<awang>
At least for other rockets?
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<Pap>
If they pull this off, it would be an incredible achievement
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<NathanKell|AFK>
Go go gadget F9H
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AFK: awang left a message for you in #RO [06.02.2018 14:11:47]: "Could you take a look at my RF branch to see if any changes are worth pulling into master?"
<Qboid>
NathanKell|AFK: awang left a message for you in #RO [06.02.2018 16:00:05]: "Do you know what part of TF is eating the most CPU? Is it the data recorder, failure checks, something else?"
<hattivat>
ignition will be reissued, as a serious new edition, quality and all, yours for just $25
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<dxdy>
hey there. quick question: What do I need to get started with the RP-1 install? Is there a packaged version floating around or is it checking out the repositories? Also, is there still a need to use a deviating RealFuels.dll and if so where would one get it?
<Starwaster>
RF for what, 1.2.2 or 1.3.1?
<dxdy>
I'm trying to get an RP-1 install up and running with 1.3.1
<dxdy>
but unfortunately I'm a bit out of date in terms of what needs to be done
<dxdy>
I tried looking on reddit because I vaguely remember someone putting up some instructions in a comment there, but unfortunately I can't actually find it
<Starwaster>
reddit reddit reddit reddit this reddit that SMH
<dxdy>
didn't there use to be that dropbox folder with the dll's
<acharles>
the technical stream with no other noise
<Probus>
Well that was pretty clear... Dang
<acharles>
And technically, I don’t think he said ‘have’. :P
<awang>
:(
<acharles>
But he was talking quickly.
<acharles>
This video is way less interesting to look at but the audio is awesome.
<awang>
Has anyone done any guesswork as to how much faster the center core is going at MECO compared to a F9 launch to droneship?
<Probus>
That's a good question, especially with such a light payload.
<lamont>
wonder if it ran out of gas before it landed
<awang>
Maybe
<awang>
?
<awang>
Do cores landing on the droneship fall at about the same speed as cores doing RTLS before the landing burn starts?
<awang>
And if the core crashed that droneship is taking quite a beating
<acharles>
Should be easy to tell, given that they have the current speed showing during the flight.
<acharles>
And I still find it weird when people say that it can take 63,000kg to LEO, when the payload adaptor is the same as F9 and is only rated for ~10,000kg.
<lamont>
i’d be reasonably confident that if a customer appears that wants to pay them to put 63,000kg in LEO that they’ll dig up a payload adaptor that works for that
<acharles>
It’s not obvious that it’s only the payload adaptor, though. The F9 is already the rocket with the thinest core for how long it is.
<acharles>
Only one payload category requires more than 10 tonnes.
<acharles>
Which is like, 20 tonnes to polar orbit…
<acharles>
I don’t even know when the last time that happened was.
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<lamont>
i suspect 63,000kg to LEO is more of a rating when its understood that its delivering an upper stage for injecting the actual payload somewhere
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<Maxsimal>
Part of what this launch demonstrates is the ability to do a delivery to GEO (hence the 6 hour pause before relighting the 2nd stage for MTI - not just GTO, GEO. So yeah, could be much less final tonnage for that.
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<Starwaster>
"I’ve never worried about a central core until tonight. I’m not even sure what it is but I need to know where it is #FalconHeavy"
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<lamont>
“Pilot reports lots of smoke coming from the sea in general direction of OCISLY” (rando on reddit)
<awang>
Sort of matches what the drone ship camera was showing
<awang>
I thought that there was fog or something due to all the smoke
<awang>
Kind of curious what would produce that much smoke though
<awang>
I thought rockets would burn much more quickly
<lamont>
if there was fuel, it’ll potentially splatter kerolox all over the droneship which will then all ignite and then anything flammable (there’s at least cameras there) will burn. there’s electronics in it which can catch fire. a battery someplace. guidance sensors. wires. insulators are probably fire resistant but would probably burn? lubricants?
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<dxdy>
what might I have done wrong if I'm not getting the RealSolarSystem solar system? It shows the stock system and dimensions. I downloaded the newest RSS release and copied over the changes from master after that. (And installed the textures).
<dxdy>
Curiously according to the log it does seem to load it sensibly, the kopernicus config things show up and it does load the RealSolarSystem.dll
<dxdy>
so I'm thinking I maybe missed a step or something along these lines, but I'm not sure where