<Slaintemaith>
I'll say this: Pak's shuttle is rather nice--both looking and handling. Especially with the 'hybrid' attitude adjust in MechJeb.
<awang>
Mike`: Yeah, idk
<awang>
Might have to bother someone to see how good/bad of an idea it is
<awang>
brb
<Slaintemaith>
Anyway. Off for the night.
<Mike`>
me too, nighties
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<Starwaster>
what is a paks shuttle
<Mike`>
!tell NathanKell* can we get the bluedog update merged aswell for the release, or is something opposing it? Because i did already make the according changes to the rp-0 sheet, aswell.
<Qboid>
Mike`: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<schnobs>
Starwaster: PAKS, in that case, being russian.
<schnobs>
A shuttle whose external tank was mostly in front of it. Looks neat and mitigates problems of aerodynamics and CoM.
<schnobs>
Also, a paper plane.
<Starwaster>
schnobs ok so it's not a specific parts pack?
<schnobs>
Starwaster: afraid I might have fed you nonsense. There was a soviet shuttle concept as I described, but connot dig it up. Seems it was NOT named paks...
<schnobs>
ALSV stands for Air Launched Sortie Vehicle and from the era, i guess it was one of the sub-concepts of SDI. Just stumbled across the art but cannot find much else.
<ProjectThoth>
IIRC, there was a concept (called Black Horse, I think, or something silly like that) that made use of mid-air refueling a spaceplane.
<schnobs>
Another TIL: Rockwell C-1057 (just do a picture search)
<ProjectThoth>
I'd love to see the launch vehicle for the Flying Breadbox.
<schnobs>
But now for something completely different. I trid to piece together a ksp131 RP-1 build and game won't finish loading. I get lots of NullReferenceExceptions from Kopernicus.
<schnobs>
Is that perchance a common problem?
<Bornholio>
yes
<Bornholio>
, either wrong Kop. Wrong Textures or Wrong RSS
<Bornholio>
or doubles
<ProjectThoth>
"According to Limerick and Cuffe, although hydrogen afterburners for the 747 were possible, they did not already exist, and this would require a lengthy development program. Instead, they decided to select an existing rocket engine to mount to the 747."
<Starwaster>
WinterOwlMode? wtf is that? NathanKell|AFK do you know?
<schnobs>
Bornholio: thanks. I tried to reuse textures I downloaded last october, guess that's it.
<Bornholio>
No Prob, i've spent a few escort missions on that one
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<schnobs>
OK, game loads. No textures other than Earth and Moon, but that'll last a long way.
<Bornholio>
?
<Bornholio>
make sure you don't have kopernicus 1.3.1-4
<schnobs>
1.3-1.3 here...
<schnobs>
checks spreadsheed, ok ok.
<soundnfury>
schnobs: is everything else yellow?
<Bornholio>
1.3.1-3 works fine, then its somptin else
<soundnfury>
I had a bunch of yellow planets, so I converted their DDSes to PNG and changed the Kopernicus config files to point at the latter, then it worked
<soundnfury>
apparently it's some kind of Linux × Intel graphics issue
<schnobs>
closed KSP already, but basically it was meridians. Not sure about the color (variable?)
<schnobs>
above, Bornholio said either wrong kopernicus, wrong textures or wrong RSS.
<schnobs>
In my case it was the textures (reusing from an older install didn't work)
<Probus>
I bet that's it schnobs
<Probus>
I am using the old textures.
NathanKell|AFK is now known as NathanKell
<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: Mike` left a message for you in #RO [12.02.2018 00:07:06]: "can we get the bluedog update merged aswell for the release, or is something opposing it? Because i did already make the according changes to the rp-0 sheet, aswell."
<Probus>
\o
<schnobs>
Is persistent rotation a must-have? Last used it a year+ ago and usabilty was abysmal...
<NathanKell>
It's a must have if you want to do unguided stuff
<NathanKell>
which you do
<schnobs>
?
<schnobs>
Control until last stage, point, shoot... why would I need PS afterwards?
<NathanKell>
!tell Mike* can you also update the sheet to fix the unpressurized tags? (see my recent commit to RP-0). And as for BDB Atlas parts, sure. Did Cobalt finally make nice shiny engines?
<Qboid>
NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell>
schnobs: See my recent streams.
<NathanKell>
Or an unguided lunar orbit shot.
<Probus>
NathanKell, did you see the Saturn V I'm printing?
<SRBuchanan>
I've got SSTU tanks working in RP-1! Whoo!
<NathanKell>
?
<SRBuchanan>
Fixed a bunch of mis-references on the MUS.
<ProjectThoth>
I'd imagine that it'd be cheaper to do what Revell did with the 1/96 Saturn V, and 3D print the corrugations/intertanks/engines/detailed parts, but make the tank walls out of sheet styrene.
<NathanKell>
what mod is it in?
<Starwaster>
It's in AeroGUI... doesnt sound familiar to you?
<Starwaster>
it's stokc
<NathanKell>
SRBuchanan: Cool! The ? was for SRB
<NathanKell>
SW*
<SRBuchanan>
Ah.
<NathanKell>
Starwaster: Yeah. Winter Owl asked me to change the GUI a bit
<SRBuchanan>
Anyways, I'm going back to enjoying gratuitous amounts of shininess.
<NathanKell>
IIRC it removes some entries and does osmething to the ittle bar
<NathanKell>
title*
<NathanKell>
something*
<Starwaster>
ah
<soundnfury>
so NathanKell you wanna start a race soon, or wait until release?
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<NathanKell>
soundnfury I think I would like to wait to release. I want to at least play until crewed spaceflight--remember I haven't done that yet on RP-1 :]
<soundnfury>
'k
<NathanKell>
Also I just seriously rejiggered sounding rocket rewards, so...
<NathanKell>
ah, reminds me. I should stream. I need some playtime :]
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|Twitch
<NathanKell|Twitch>
and away we go
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<schnobs>
do I need any DLLs above and beyond what's in RP-0 Dev?
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<NathanKell>
schnobs: See the issue on the RP-0 repo
<awang>
NathanKell: What modifications do KCT/RF still have that haven't been merged?
<awang>
Mike`: I'll see what I can do about cylindrical decouplers
<awang>
Now that I think about it, I should probably see if setting the fillet radius to 0 achieves the same effect...
<NathanKell>
awang: Nothing. They just need built dlls
<NathanKell>
Neither repo has binaries
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
I knew that
<NathanKell>
:)
<SRBuchanan>
Today's my first day playing in RP-1 and I have to say it kicks ass.
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<SRBuchanan>
Thanks for all of your hard work guys. This stuff rules.
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<soundnfury>
:)
<duckie>
yeah, rss/rp0 is the only way I like to play KSP anymore
<soundnfury>
yeah, stock is just painful now
<taniwha>
awang: I had to engrave "Thou shalt not commit generated files to git." on stone tablets and drop them on NathanKell's head several years back :)
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<blowfish>
It's nice to have the built DLLs somewhere though
<blowfish>
(but yes, in the repo is not good)
<awang>
taniwha: Apparently, you still have some work to do :P
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<awang>
I agree, though, generated things shouldn't be in git
<NathanKell>
taniwha can't stop meeee!
* awang
gives taniwha a chisel
* taniwha
readies some more tables
<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn chisel
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon added!
<taniwha>
I've recently got it so I no longer need to store .mu files in my repos (I haven't cleaned up old ones yet, but new ones don't get the .mu anymore)
<taniwha>
"make" does all the work for me :)
<taniwha>
(blender running an export script)
<awang>
Just need to add a pre-commit hook to scold those unfortunate souls that try to version the dlls
<NathanKell>
nomz time, may be back later, may not
<NathanKell>
o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<taniwha>
awang: yeah
<duckie>
man, hanging in this chat makes me feel dumb
<Bornholio>
nah just nerd gushiness
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<duckie>
yeah, but y'all are nerds about something i know very, very little about
<duckie>
it's good though. it either keeps me humble or motivates me to learn more
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<soundnfury>
heh that's odd, I just put a plane together 'by eye', and when I brought up FAR all the stabbity numbers were green :)
<soundnfury>
no adjustments needed...
<taniwha>
soundnfury: once you've done a few, it's not that hard
<soundnfury>
I know but it still always feels weird
<soundnfury>
it's like when a piece of code compiles and runs correctly the first time
<soundnfury>
you're waiting for the other shoe to drop :)
<taniwha>
heh
<soundnfury>
uhhh... where are my oceans?
<soundnfury>
I upgraded Kopernicus to 1.3.1-5, and now the water doesn't seem to be there
<acharles>
When I first read that, I thought you meant the bug where the entire KSC is covered in water
<acharles>
But then I read it again.
<soundnfury>
the water is there in the map view but not in flight (at least, at low altitudes. Haven't launched anything high yet)
<acharles>
Should be better for performance without the water effects, right? (I’m a silver lining sort of person, on occasion)
<soundnfury>
heh
<soundnfury>
the nonexistent oceans don't produce buoyancy either, as it turns out
<soundnfury>
(but fortunately the parachutes don't cut until hitting the seabed, so it's all ok)
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<Probus>
KCT is making totally rebuild the rocket even if all I do is fill the tanks. Who would I talk to about that?
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<Maxsimal>
o/
<Probus>
\o
<Mike`>
o/
<Qboid>
Mike`: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [12.02.2018 01:22:29]: "can you also update the sheet to fix the unpressurized tags? (see my recent commit to RP-0). And as for BDB Atlas parts, sure. Did Cobalt finally make nice shiny engines?"
<Mike`>
when you recover your rocket with that, it is apparently stored rather than cashed in
<Mike`>
haven't tried it and no idea if theres a better/easier way, have the same problem currently though, engine failed to ignite and i don't want to rebuild the whole rocket because of that....
<Mike`>
so tell me if you have found a solution/if scrapcard worked :)
<Probus>
OK
<Mike`>
or rather, the parts are stored, so rebuilding should be quicker and less costly? So probably still not an ideal solution...
<Maxsimal>
I don't think our version of KCT cares about scrapyard, but that might have changed since I stopped paying attention to that mod
<Probus>
I don't know the reason Mike` and Maxsimal, but that fixed it.
<Probus>
Filling tanks will now take me 2 minutes instead of 29 days.
<Mike`>
Probus: you mean scrapyard? cool.
<Probus>
Yessir
<Mike`>
and i assume you did recover it.
<Mike`>
hm.
<Probus>
Might want to move that one from optional to required.
<Mike`>
have to try it aswell, then. :)
<Mike`>
well, i probably wouldn't call it required, but it might be (highly) recommended
<Probus>
Its required for me! :) 9 times out of 10 I forget something.
<taniwha>
iirc, ckan does support "recommend"
<Probus>
I meant on the install spreadsheet taniwha.
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<Probus>
Also, Science Alert is back. It does not cause stuttering.
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<Mike`>
Probus: link?
<taniwha>
is that [x] science, or something else?
<Probus>
Something else. Its on CKAN now.
<Mike`>
mh
<taniwha>
oh, hang on, Science Alert was the original one
<Probus>
Wow! I just had a rocket explode on the launchpad. Spectacular!
<Mike`>
forgot something again? Apparently not the fuel this time, though :D
<Probus>
I think I may have had a solid rocket clipping into another part. Either that or TF.
<acharles>
I’ve never seen TF outright explode something… but I suppose it’s possible?
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<awang>
Mike`: I think Scrapyard tends to break RP-1's balancing
<awang>
Probus: ^
<awang>
KCT has a recover function built-in
<awang>
Instead of recovering using the normal recover button, you have to go through the KCT window
<acharles>
Does stage recovery work with rp-0/1
<awang>
Don't remember if you use the window in flight scene or space center
<Maxsimal>
awang: Through the flight scene
<awang>
And there's a minor bug in that if you use that with planes the next time you launch them they'll be pointing straight up
<awang>
Or at least that was the case last time I used the functionality
<Maxsimal>
awang: Yeah it's not perfect, at least last I used- when I've used it int he past, I've had to do things like replace the engine to get ignitions back
<awang>
acharles: I've seen TF blow up an engine just once, way back, so it's possible
<awang>
Just not likely, I think
<acharles>
Didn’t you write TF?
<acharles>
:P
<awang>
acharles: It's been working for me, although idk how much it messes with balance
<awang>
acharles: Nah, I wish
<awang>
It would mean I actually did something significant
<acharles>
Oh, right… Another person with an a name.
<acharles>
So many names that start with A.
<awang>
Maxsimal: I didn't know about the ignitions thing; I've only used the recovery functionality with planes
<awang>
Haven't gotten to the point where I can actually start recovering rockets
<awang>
acharles: Agathorn
<awang>
aka jwvanderbeck
<Mike`>
awang: interesting, need to try that. Because having to rebuild a rocket that failed to ignite on the pad sounds stupid. :)
<awang>
Mike`: Yes, it is. Still got some balancing work to do, though
<awang>
At least last time I played with ScrapYard I could launch sounding rockets every few days at the beginning of my career
<Maxsimal>
awang: Yeah I was using it to either recover rockets that never left the pad (agathorned) or to recover sub-orbital rockets I built to be 100% reused - and when I did those, I'd always have to do some fixup on the rocket in the editor to get back into shape - refill the tanks, replace the engine, replace the launch clamps.
<awang>
idk how much the KCT recovery thing messes with balancing. Definitely helps with the X-plane contracts, though
<awang>
Maxsimal: I just reverted whenever I got ignition failures :P
<awang>
Got tired of the fixed TF having really weird ignition failure probabilities
<awang>
Didn't want to have to recover/relaunch a sounding rocket >10 times in a row just for a regular flight
<awang>
And I don't think I ever ended up making a completely reusable sounding rocket, actually
<awang>
Went straight from aerobee-style ones to disposable A-4 + black arrow combinations
<awang>
Or bumpers
<Maxsimal>
awang: Yeah I was using a reusable one to do biome hopping around different launch sites, for my speed run
<Maxsimal>
awang: I won't be doing that again for the RIS game, though. I doubt i'll do any reuseables, since now much of the cost is in rollout.
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<acharles>
I think I’d have more fun with RP-0/1 if there was a mod that took the test flight data and showed it in the ui and did nothing else. I’m weird. I never try to run past an engine’s rated time, but I revert whenever TF cases a launch failure.
<acharles>
I’d uninstall TF, but then I wouldn’t know the rated burn times.
<acharles>
I guess I could just disable it… maybe it still shows the burn times then.
<Mike`>
just disable reverts in your games :S i wouldn't use parts like rescue towers without TF, in fact i never did use them, haven't really done crewed flight yet
<Maxsimal>
acharles: I used to be like that - but then I started having fun planning ahead for TF failures. It doesn't help so much when you're just building thor-ables with a single engine per stage, but you CAN kind of work around TF when you're building multiengine stages
<acharles>
I usually use R7’s
<acharles>
I have lots of engines
<Maxsimal>
acharles: Well then, you can work around TF a bit by having more engine than you need, and having outboard engines canted in a bit to point through COM so an outboard failure doesn't take you outside the limit of your TVC.
<acharles>
Technically, R7’s can deal with most engine failures gracefully, even if it prevents them from going to orbit. But in KSP it’s hard to shutdown the opposite engine during a failure.
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<awang>
Maxsimal: I did something a bit different for biome hopping
<awang>
Took a plane with the science stuff and went on a 22-hour flight over all biomes
<awang>
Didn't get upper atmosphere/low space data, but figured that low space could wait until a polar satellite
<awang>
Still not entirely sure about upper atmosphere, since I haven't done anything with multiple launch sites
<awang>
I think RP-1 still needs balancing to account for multiple launch sites
<awang>
idk if it's assumed that the player will only use one
<awang>
Otherwise, probably should just use Kourou for most things
<awang>
I should also figure out what's going on with TF's ignition failure rate before RIS starts...
<awang>
Or at least everyone should play with the debug dll to get more data
<awang>
acharles: Probably not too difficult to disable TF failures while keeping it installed
<awang>
Got a few other things to do first, unless there's an obvious solution while working on something else
<Mike`>
22hr flight? oO that must've taken you a week on your pc? :S
<Mike`>
i think nathan recently always used a single launch site, also during the last RIS afair
<awang>
Mike`: Took 1.5 days, I think?
<awang>
Timewarp helps a lot, although I think I could only get up to 8x before weird things started happening
<awang>
Wasn't too bad; just let KSP run in the background while doing other stuff
<awang>
Check occasionally to see if I need to make a turn
<awang>
Balancing for multiple launch sites might be tricky
<awang>
Especially if we want to make multiple launch sites optional
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<Mike`>
well, i think nathan mentioned not wanting to require launch site switcher
<Mike`>
not sure if it makes much of a diff. for a RIS, people need to agree wether to use it or not
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<awang>
I'm curious if KSCSwitcher is technically required
<awang>
Would you just be stuck at the Cape without it?...
<awang>
But yeah, RIS players will need to agree on a site
<awang>
Otherwise players at Kourou would have it much easier than players at Baikonur
<awang>
Or players at Vandenberg having an easier time with early game biome grinding
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Wasn't someone working on a range safety mod?...
<awang>
Something to limit directions you can launch from at various launch sites
<Mike`>
awang: yes, i never installed kscswitcher and am stuck at the cape :)
<Mike`>
awang: and err... that would sound complicated... and i don't care launching over urban areas :D
<awang>
Mike`: Guess KSCSwitcher isn't required, then :D
<awang>
Hey, launch corridors are Realistic (tm)
<Mike`>
how does ksc switcher work anyway - do you need to build and upgrade launchpads at every site? hmhm..
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<Mike`>
i mean... switching from the cape to baikonur would feel weird. but from the cape to VAB
<Mike`>
s/VAB/VAFB/
<Qboid>
Mike` meant to say: i mean... switching from the cape to baikonur would feel weird. but from the cape to VAFB
<Mike`>
would make sense
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<awang>
Mike`: I believe each site has independent buildings
<awang>
So yeah, you'll need to build/upgrade launchpads separately at different sites
<awang>
So multiple sites can be quite the drain on funds
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<schnobs>
Still not loving KCT. Put in pipeline, warp, roll out, warp, find it's the dead of night, warp.
<schnobs>
A lot of clicky just to launch a sounding rocket.
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<Maxsimal>
schnobs: It's better than 'oh, it took me a week to progress my space program from launching a sounding rocket to a moonshot, because I launched a new rocket each day of the week'
<schnobs>
I don't object to things taking time, but to the amount of useless user interaction it requires.
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<Maxsimal>
So what would you eliminate from the series of clicks?
<schnobs>
A shortcut to rollout would come in handy. Maybe also make it daytime-aware.
<schnobs>
Don't see why reconditioning sets a own timer. Blocking the pad for a while after launch is OK, but it's rarely if ever an event I want to warp to.
<schnobs>
And, coming to think of it, Moon in a week sounds preposterous but isn't all that bad - it involves many missions to get there no matter what the calendar says.
<schnobs>
I consider "doing missions" to be "playing the game". Making the player click through menus just to make time pass, however...
<Mike`>
well, it's usually not that bad. 1-2 more shirtcuts like "warp to" and "warp to launch" would be cool, true. besides that sometimes the KCT window disappears and you have to refetch it with another 1-2 clicks.
<schnobs>
Something else I didn't like on past playthroughs: I desired and could have utilized multiple build pipelines in the era of early rocketry, when rockets are still relatively small and likely to go boom.
<schnobs>
having to mariners ready on the same launch window, that kind of thing.
<schnobs>
Also goes over well with test flight.
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<schnobs>
By Saturn, there's little need for parallelization any more.
<Mike`>
well, early launch vehicles build quick enough that i never felt the need for multiple pipelines
<Mike`>
no idea how it's later in the game, multiple pipelines might or might not be useful depending on time, - but i think time increases when your rockets are human rated, thus they might be useful for crewed flight
<Probus>
The first thing I do is turn off Roll-out for the simple reason of not wanting it to stop my warps
<Mike`>
...okay
<Mike`>
i want it to stop my waprs because i usually want to launch ;)
<Probus>
and...
<Probus>
turn off pad reconditioning.
<schnobs>
Mike`: As I understand it, Probus goes directly from construction to launch, does not pass rollout, does not deduct 30seconds of player time.
<Probus>
Ha!
<schnobs>
strikes me as a good compromise. Copied.
<Mike`>
well, yes, a shortcut would be nice for that scenario
<Probus>
Other than that, I have no complaints about KCT. Really like its versatility.
<Mike`>
but, talking about wasted time
<Mike`>
what *really* does waste player time is the game being slow. :|
<schnobs>
Hmmm. "Tooling" means that every time I want to build something in a new diameter, I first need to find and click the tooling button?
<schnobs>
Is there any more to it?
<schnobs>
Probus: how do you disable rollout?
<schnobs>
I see a button for reconditioning, but not rollout.
<Probus>
I set it to 100% reconditioning.
<schnobs>
Ah. nevermind -- the reconditioning button takes care of both.
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<Mike`>
schnobs: i build my rocket just as usual. only when i decide it's fine, i open the tooling window to see all untooled parts and tool all the parts i need.
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<Probus>
Where do you find a unit of payload?
<schnobs>
??
<Probus>
for the contracts
<schnobs>
sorry. I've heard, but had no RP-1 at the time.
<schnobs>
Is it a tweakable on proc avionics, perhaps?
<Probus>
Let's see
<Probus>
Nope. Still can't find it.
<Mike`>
theres stuff like sounding payload you can fill into tanks
<Probus>
Ah ha. Thanks Mike`
<Mike`>
some resources only show for service module tanks, i'm not sure about sounding payload
<schnobs>
trying to take a nap. BBL.
<Probus>
Yeah, its in with the service module tank.
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<awang>
Yeah, having a way to have only some KCT events stop timewarp would be nice
<awang>
idk how much internal changes that would require though
<awang>
And multiple simultaneous builds would be nice
<awang>
But that doesn't work too well right now
<awang>
Since additional pipelines are significantly cheaper
<awang>
Or at least you get a significant amount of benefit per build point, compared to the first build point
<awang>
ScrapYard might also reduce the need for simultaneous builds
<awang>
Since you have to wait to recover a vessel before building another one if you want the reduced rates
<awang>
idk how much it breaks RP-1's balancing though
<Mike`>
multiple build queues actually make life harder, not simpler, so... i don't think they'tre needed earlier
<awang>
Harder how?
<soundnfury>
Probus: are you sure noping rollout doesn't also bork rollout costs?
<soundnfury>
a vital part of rp-1's balancing ;)
<Probus>
Yep. I do believe that gets borked.
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<Mike`>
harder as in you need to manage more than one queue, keep both saturated and thus plan ahead further
<soundnfury>
Mike`: but that's *fun* :)
<Mike`>
soundnfury: well, in a certain way, probably. We were discussing if we should start out with more tha one queue..
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<Mike`>
What i would rather more like to have is parallel research
<soundnfury>
maybe not *right* at the start, when there are literally only two things you can build (bees and A4)
<Probus>
That's an idea Mike`
<Probus>
That will unbalance things though
<Mike`>
because i kinda dislike having a huge backlist, and never free research time for other/less important stuff :D
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<Mike`>
Probus: it probably won't unbalance things if you make reserach slower per queue accordingly, eg if you keep total time constant
<Probus>
That would defeat the purpose though
<Mike`>
no
<Probus>
I would rather research sequentially than have to wait for everything to finish.
<Mike`>
if i just wanted faster research, i couldve said "i want faster" - but no, i don't want faster research
<Mike`>
if at all reserach is too fast at normal difficulty because i could research orbital rocketry 58 in 55 :)
<Mike`>
having multiple, slower queues prevents being too far ahead in a single area and lag totally behind in others, somewhat forces you to do parallel research
<Probus>
From a realism standpoint, you are right.
<Probus>
My ocean has disappeared.
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<awang>
Mike`: That's not that bad, is it?
<awang>
Just stuff something expensive into the other slot(s) if you don't have anything
<awang>
So you can disassemble it and reuse for less money :P
<awang>
In any case, planning is part of the fun, isn't it?
<awang>
and nothing says you *have* to fill the pipelines at all times
<awang>
It's just an option
<awang>
But yeah, soundnfury has a point, since at the beginning the choice of rockets is rather limited
<awang>
Later, as rockets get powerful enough to hit more launch windows, build queues help
<awang>
Although that's pretty much how things are right now
<awang>
And yes, please, parallel research would be nice
<awang>
Research is typically the thing holding me back on my playthroughs
<awang>
Especially avionics/RCS
<awang>
The Russian engines can be pushed surprisingly far
<awang>
I have Venus/Mars probes on 60 ton rockets, RD-107 boosters with RD-something upper stage (whatever the first Russian upper is)
<awang>
KCT needs to get something to prevent research from being done out of order though
<awang>
And the limiting factor with the Venus/Mars probes was the antenna/avionics/solar panels
<awang>
And not wanting to go to the 150 ton pad >_<
<awang>
Antennas are depressingly power-hungry
<awang>
Or solar panels are depressingly weak
<Mike`>
60 ton sounds nice....dangit, i'm currently at around 100 tons for these.
<Mike`>
although i don't have rd-something upper stages yet :s
<awang>
Mike`: "these"?
<Mike`>
mars/venus
<awang>
Ah
<Mike`>
although i'm not sure how much dv i will really need, never did one before
<awang>
RD-0105 is the upper, I think
<awang>
Low thrust, but fantastic ISP for the time
<Mike`>
anyway, i'm not against parallel building, i'm just saying it's probably fine the way it is now, start with 1, get more later
<Mike`>
yep, don't have that yet
<Mike`>
am on the first orbital rocketry node
<awang>
Ah, yes, orbital rocketry 1958
<Mike`>
and said 100 ton rocket
<awang>
Makes sense
<Mike`>
but down to 60 tons sounds somewhat impressive :)
<awang>
Yeah, just wish the first build queue upgrade weren't so insanely expensive
<awang>
But extra build queues can be quite helpful, so it makes sense
<awang>
Mike`: I think I pretty much *just* got the 150 ton pad
<awang>
I ended up sinking a ton of cash into R&D points
<awang>
So I could get the right engines and avionics
<awang>
And solar panels
<Probus>
It would also be nice if, when we build the same rocket, the next rockets start to come down in build time.
<awang>
Probus: I think tooling is supposed to partially address that at least?
<awang>
Probus: The building the same rocket part may make a bit more sense if you could order multiple rockets at once
<awang>
Buy 12, get the 13th free, since you're such a good customer
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<awang>
How in the world did Russians get such a good gas generator kerolox engine so early
<Probus>
:) Yes an assembly line would definitely be realistic. Very realistic.
<Probus>
Once tooling is set up you can crank them out pretty fast.
<Probus>
One thing that is missing and would be hard to implement (because it would clutter things up) is a list of tooled parts you can choose from.
<awang>
Probus: I mean, there is a list of parts for which you have tooling
<awang>
So close-ish?
<Mike`>
awang: oh right, i haven't used balloon tanks yet, just used tank 3s
<Probus>
Where awang?
<Mike`>
Probus: rp-0 window
<awang>
Mike`: Balloon tanks OP
<awang>
Apparently they don't reflect the real-life downsides enough
<Mike`>
just click the rp-0 button -.> tooling
<awang>
Because I can't find a reason not to use them
<awang>
Probus: ^What Mike` said
<Mike`>
awang: well, reason is/should be price
<awang>
Mike`: In theory
<awang>
Problem being that they aren't that much more expensive
<awang>
Or at least not that much more last time I checked
<Mike`>
rollout costs should be much more expensive especially, did you compare those? well, maybe they need tuning
<awang>
Considering the savings when using the 60t pad instead of the 150t, it's a pretty easy win
<awang>
Yeah, I did
<awang>
Mike`: One check I did a while back
<awang>
I could use a 2m x 15.3m Tank-III for the first stage, or a 2m x 14.8m balloon tank
<Mike`>
saving because pad upgrade costs or because launches cost more on larger pads? the latter got reduced somewhat i think
<awang>
Vacuum dv goes from 4810 to 4992, per-rocket cost goes from 6477 to 6668, build time goes from ~149 days to ~155 days, rollout cost goes from 24123.1 to 24921
<awang>
So not a huge difference
<awang>
The latter
<awang>
Did they get reduced? I'll probably need to check again then
<awang>
The stats there were taken 2017-Nov-29
<Mike`>
yeah nathan adjusted rollout time and costs when he came back
<Mike`>
costs at least
<awang>
Yeah, I see it in the logs
<awang>
Looks like I'll need to redo those calculations
<awang>
The parts that changed seem to be based on the pad levels, though
<awang>
So idk how much those numbers would change
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<Mike`>
yeah, i think high level pads were too expensive
<awang>
I mean, they *were* supposed to incentivize using smaller pads if possible
<Rokker>
anyone got a good RO build they wouldn't mind sharing
<Rokker>
I lost mine in the transfer to my new computer
<Rokker>
along with like 12 versions of ksp stretching back to 0.21.0
<Probus>
Back to the tooling question. Lets say I want to take a tooled battery from one rocket and put it on another rocket. I don't see how you do that.
<awang>
Probus: Tooling is based on sizes
<awang>
So as long as the new battery has a size/shape similar to the original one, you'll get the tooling discount
<Probus>
OK. I'll have to try that out.
<awang>
Probus: This is really clear with a new career
<awang>
Tool a 1m cylindrical tank, costs 1 fund
<awang>
Change to 2 meters length, cost rockets up to a few hundred funds
<awang>
Back to 1 meter, back to 1 fund
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<Mike`>
Probus, yep. tool a certain size to have low cost. change the length, and costs and costs to retool rise moderately. Change the diameter, and costs/costs to retool are back to untooled level.
<soundnfury>
Probus: and you can find out what sizes you have tooled so far by looking in the RP-1 GUI
<soundnfury>
also, you can vary both dimensions by up to 4% from the tooled value without having to retool
<schnobs>
From what I understand about manufacturing, extra length should be a lot easier to come by than a wider diameter.
<soundnfury>
yep. And that's how it is in RP-1
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<Mike`>
!tell NathanKell* I added the tag to the 625mBonny, but i cannot remove the "Tag" part because that belongs to a formula cell which is locked, so you or pap would have to do that, i guess. Also, pap says to edit the sheet and rebuild, not just commit to the repo. :D
<Qboid>
Mike`: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<schnobs>
Hmmm. I can't see how much time I have for a contract before accepting it.
<Mike`>
schnobs, it's there for contracts that have a limit, if there's none, the contract has no limit.
* schnobs
is aghast at how dificult it is to add a small battery to his first sounding rocket.
<schnobs>
Also, has someone tweaked up the power requirements for transmissions?
<schnobs>
The RP-0 menu needs a "just tool it all, fer crissakes" button.
<Mike`>
:)
<awang>
schnobs: I'm going to add that button
<awang>
With that text
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<awang>
schnobs: An extremely hacked together version of your suggestion: