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<Slaintemaith> I'll say this: Pak's shuttle is rather nice--both looking and handling. Especially with the 'hybrid' attitude adjust in MechJeb.
<awang> Mike`: Yeah, idk
<awang> Might have to bother someone to see how good/bad of an idea it is
<awang> brb
<Slaintemaith> Anyway. Off for the night.
<Mike`> me too, nighties
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<Starwaster> what is a paks shuttle
<Mike`> !tell NathanKell* can we get the bluedog update merged aswell for the release, or is something opposing it? Because i did already make the according changes to the rp-0 sheet, aswell.
<Qboid> Mike`: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<schnobs> Starwaster: PAKS, in that case, being russian.
<schnobs> A shuttle whose external tank was mostly in front of it. Looks neat and mitigates problems of aerodynamics and CoM.
<schnobs> Also, a paper plane.
<Starwaster> schnobs ok so it's not a specific parts pack?
<schnobs> Starwaster: afraid I might have fed you nonsense. There was a soviet shuttle concept as I described, but connot dig it up. Seems it was NOT named paks...
<Starwaster> I see.
<Starwaster> (said icily)
<SRBuchanan> It was anglicized as MAKS.
<ProjectThoth> MAKS was weird, but cool.
<schnobs> ALSV stands for Air Launched Sortie Vehicle and from the era, i guess it was one of the sub-concepts of SDI. Just stumbled across the art but cannot find much else.
<ProjectThoth> IIRC, there was a concept (called Black Horse, I think, or something silly like that) that made use of mid-air refueling a spaceplane.
<ProjectThoth> Oh, hey, Star Clipper drop tanks! http://www.thespacereview.com/archive/1580a.jpg
<schnobs> Another TIL: Rockwell C-1057 (just do a picture search)
<ProjectThoth> I'd love to see the launch vehicle for the Flying Breadbox.
<schnobs> But now for something completely different. I trid to piece together a ksp131 RP-1 build and game won't finish loading. I get lots of NullReferenceExceptions from Kopernicus.
<schnobs> Is that perchance a common problem?
<Bornholio> yes
<Bornholio> , either wrong Kop. Wrong Textures or Wrong RSS
<Bornholio> or doubles
<ProjectThoth> "According to Limerick and Cuffe, although hydrogen afterburners for the 747 were possible, they did not already exist, and this would require a lengthy development program. Instead, they decided to select an existing rocket engine to mount to the 747."
<Starwaster> WinterOwlMode? wtf is that? NathanKell|AFK do you know?
<schnobs> Bornholio: thanks. I tried to reuse textures I downloaded last october, guess that's it.
<Bornholio> No Prob, i've spent a few escort missions on that one
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<schnobs> OK, game loads. No textures other than Earth and Moon, but that'll last a long way.
<Bornholio> ?
<Bornholio> make sure you don't have kopernicus 1.3.1-4
<schnobs> 1.3-1.3 here...
<schnobs> checks spreadsheed, ok ok.
<soundnfury> schnobs: is everything else yellow?
<Bornholio> 1.3.1-3 works fine, then its somptin else
<soundnfury> I had a bunch of yellow planets, so I converted their DDSes to PNG and changed the Kopernicus config files to point at the latter, then it worked
<soundnfury> apparently it's some kind of Linux × Intel graphics issue
<schnobs> closed KSP already, but basically it was meridians. Not sure about the color (variable?)
<soundnfury> http://jttlov.no-ip.org/venus2.png <-- here's what mine looked like
<soundnfury> if you've got something else breaking then idk, sorry
<schnobs> not too dissimilar to mine, if the poles in your picture are left and right.
<soundnfury> might be, can't remember
<soundnfury> anyway yeah, fix is to convert DDS textures to PNG. v0v
<schnobs> Upgrading to kopernicus 13-15 fixed it for me.
<soundnfury> ok
<soundnfury> glad to hear that
<schnobs> That should be basic RO. Onwards to RP-1!
<Probus> I am still having trouble with Kopernicus. Can someone take a look at my log file and see if anything stands out? https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5onsjxtsurkldr/KSP.log?dl=0
<Probus> I tried -5 and -3
<schnobs> above, Bornholio said either wrong kopernicus, wrong textures or wrong RSS.
<schnobs> In my case it was the textures (reusing from an older install didn't work)
<Probus> I bet that's it schnobs
<Probus> I am using the old textures.
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<NathanKell> o/
<Qboid> NathanKell: Mike` left a message for you in #RO [12.02.2018 00:07:06]: "can we get the bluedog update merged aswell for the release, or is something opposing it? Because i did already make the according changes to the rp-0 sheet, aswell."
<Probus> \o
<schnobs> Is persistent rotation a must-have? Last used it a year+ ago and usabilty was abysmal...
<NathanKell> It's a must have if you want to do unguided stuff
<NathanKell> which you do
<schnobs> ?
<schnobs> Control until last stage, point, shoot... why would I need PS afterwards?
<NathanKell> !tell Mike* can you also update the sheet to fix the unpressurized tags? (see my recent commit to RP-0). And as for BDB Atlas parts, sure. Did Cobalt finally make nice shiny engines?
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> schnobs: See my recent streams.
<NathanKell> Or an unguided lunar orbit shot.
<Probus> NathanKell, did you see the Saturn V I'm printing?
<NathanKell> etc.
<NathanKell> Probus no!
<soundnfury> o/ NathanKell
<Probus> 1/72nd scale
<Probus> I have most of the first stage done.
<NathanKell> whoah, awesome!
<Probus> Dwarfs my Titan II
<schnobs> That's mad. Cool, but mad.
<schnobs> What's the mass?
<schnobs> ...and guesstimated cost?
<ProjectThoth> schnobs: Heavy and many.
<Probus> About 12 pounds. $180
<Probus> Not printing the tower.
<Probus> Woo Hoo! RO is working!
<soundnfury> \o/
<NathanKell> woot!
<Starwaster> NathanKell wth is WinterOwlMode?
<SRBuchanan> I've got SSTU tanks working in RP-1! Whoo!
<NathanKell> ?
<SRBuchanan> Fixed a bunch of mis-references on the MUS.
<ProjectThoth> I'd imagine that it'd be cheaper to do what Revell did with the 1/96 Saturn V, and 3D print the corrugations/intertanks/engines/detailed parts, but make the tank walls out of sheet styrene.
<NathanKell> what mod is it in?
<Starwaster> It's in AeroGUI... doesnt sound familiar to you?
<Starwaster> it's stokc
<NathanKell> SRBuchanan: Cool! The ? was for SRB
<NathanKell> SW*
<SRBuchanan> Ah.
<NathanKell> Starwaster: Yeah. Winter Owl asked me to change the GUI a bit
<SRBuchanan> Anyways, I'm going back to enjoying gratuitous amounts of shininess.
<NathanKell> IIRC it removes some entries and does osmething to the ittle bar
<NathanKell> title*
<NathanKell> something*
<Starwaster> ah
<soundnfury> so NathanKell you wanna start a race soon, or wait until release?
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<NathanKell> soundnfury I think I would like to wait to release. I want to at least play until crewed spaceflight--remember I haven't done that yet on RP-1 :]
<soundnfury> 'k
<NathanKell> Also I just seriously rejiggered sounding rocket rewards, so...
<NathanKell> ah, reminds me. I should stream. I need some playtime :]
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<NathanKell|Twitch> and away we go
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<schnobs> do I need any DLLs above and beyond what's in RP-0 Dev?
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<NathanKell> schnobs: See the issue on the RP-0 repo
<NathanKell> there are two, kct and rf
<awang> NathanKell: What modifications do KCT/RF still have that haven't been merged?
<awang> Mike`: I'll see what I can do about cylindrical decouplers
<awang> Now that I think about it, I should probably see if setting the fillet radius to 0 achieves the same effect...
<NathanKell> awang: Nothing. They just need built dlls
<NathanKell> Neither repo has binaries
<awang> Oh
<awang> I knew that
<NathanKell> :)
<SRBuchanan> Today's my first day playing in RP-1 and I have to say it kicks ass.
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<SRBuchanan> Thanks for all of your hard work guys. This stuff rules.
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<soundnfury> :)
<duckie> yeah, rss/rp0 is the only way I like to play KSP anymore
<soundnfury> yeah, stock is just painful now
<taniwha> awang: I had to engrave "Thou shalt not commit generated files to git." on stone tablets and drop them on NathanKell's head several years back :)
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<blowfish> It's nice to have the built DLLs somewhere though
<blowfish> (but yes, in the repo is not good)
<awang> taniwha: Apparently, you still have some work to do :P
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<awang> I agree, though, generated things shouldn't be in git
<NathanKell> taniwha can't stop meeee!
* awang gives taniwha a chisel
* taniwha readies some more tables
<awang> !wpn -add:wpn chisel
<Qboid> awang: Weapon added!
<taniwha> I've recently got it so I no longer need to store .mu files in my repos (I haven't cleaned up old ones yet, but new ones don't get the .mu anymore)
<taniwha> "make" does all the work for me :)
<taniwha> (blender running an export script)
<awang> Just need to add a pre-commit hook to scold those unfortunate souls that try to version the dlls
<NathanKell> nomz time, may be back later, may not
<NathanKell> o/
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<taniwha> awang: yeah
<duckie> man, hanging in this chat makes me feel dumb
<Bornholio> nah just nerd gushiness
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<duckie> yeah, but y'all are nerds about something i know very, very little about
<duckie> it's good though. it either keeps me humble or motivates me to learn more
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<soundnfury> heh that's odd, I just put a plane together 'by eye', and when I brought up FAR all the stabbity numbers were green :)
<soundnfury> no adjustments needed...
<taniwha> soundnfury: once you've done a few, it's not that hard
<soundnfury> I know but it still always feels weird
<soundnfury> it's like when a piece of code compiles and runs correctly the first time
<soundnfury> you're waiting for the other shoe to drop :)
<taniwha> heh
<soundnfury> uhhh... where are my oceans?
<soundnfury> I upgraded Kopernicus to 1.3.1-5, and now the water doesn't seem to be there
<acharles> When I first read that, I thought you meant the bug where the entire KSC is covered in water
<acharles> But then I read it again.
<soundnfury> the water is there in the map view but not in flight (at least, at low altitudes. Haven't launched anything high yet)
<acharles> Should be better for performance without the water effects, right? (I’m a silver lining sort of person, on occasion)
<soundnfury> heh
<soundnfury> the nonexistent oceans don't produce buoyancy either, as it turns out
<soundnfury> (but fortunately the parachutes don't cut until hitting the seabed, so it's all ok)
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<Probus> KCT is making totally rebuild the rocket even if all I do is fill the tanks. Who would I talk to about that?
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<Maxsimal> o/
<Probus> \o
<Mike`> o/
<Qboid> Mike`: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [12.02.2018 01:22:29]: "can you also update the sheet to fix the unpressurized tags? (see my recent commit to RP-0). And as for BDB Atlas parts, sure. Did Cobalt finally make nice shiny engines?"
<Mike`> Probus: you might want to try https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/160257-131-scrapyard-the-common-part-inventory-09670-2017-10-17/
<Mike`> when you recover your rocket with that, it is apparently stored rather than cashed in
<Mike`> haven't tried it and no idea if theres a better/easier way, have the same problem currently though, engine failed to ignite and i don't want to rebuild the whole rocket because of that....
<Mike`> so tell me if you have found a solution/if scrapcard worked :)
<Probus> OK
<Mike`> or rather, the parts are stored, so rebuilding should be quicker and less costly? So probably still not an ideal solution...
<Maxsimal> I don't think our version of KCT cares about scrapyard, but that might have changed since I stopped paying attention to that mod
<Probus> I don't know the reason Mike` and Maxsimal, but that fixed it.
<Probus> Filling tanks will now take me 2 minutes instead of 29 days.
<Mike`> Probus: you mean scrapyard? cool.
<Probus> Yessir
<Mike`> and i assume you did recover it.
<Mike`> hm.
<Probus> Might want to move that one from optional to required.
<Mike`> have to try it aswell, then. :)
<Mike`> well, i probably wouldn't call it required, but it might be (highly) recommended
<Probus> Its required for me! :) 9 times out of 10 I forget something.
<taniwha> iirc, ckan does support "recommend"
<Probus> I meant on the install spreadsheet taniwha.
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<Probus> Also, Science Alert is back. It does not cause stuttering.
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<Mike`> Probus: link?
<taniwha> is that [x] science, or something else?
<Probus> Something else. Its on CKAN now.
<Mike`> mh
<taniwha> oh, hang on, Science Alert was the original one
<Probus> Yep
<taniwha> been a while
<taniwha> btw, for anybody getting into modeling: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/40056-13-blender-mu-importexport-addon-v100/&do=findComment&comment=3292727
<taniwha> my next sub-project is a "props tool"
<Probus> Wow! I just had a rocket explode on the launchpad. Spectacular!
<Mike`> forgot something again? Apparently not the fuel this time, though :D
<Probus> I think I may have had a solid rocket clipping into another part. Either that or TF.
<acharles> I’ve never seen TF outright explode something… but I suppose it’s possible?
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<awang> Mike`: I think Scrapyard tends to break RP-1's balancing
<awang> Probus: ^
<awang> KCT has a recover function built-in
<awang> Instead of recovering using the normal recover button, you have to go through the KCT window
<acharles> Does stage recovery work with rp-0/1
<awang> Don't remember if you use the window in flight scene or space center
<Maxsimal> awang: Through the flight scene
<awang> And there's a minor bug in that if you use that with planes the next time you launch them they'll be pointing straight up
<awang> Or at least that was the case last time I used the functionality
<Maxsimal> awang: Yeah it's not perfect, at least last I used- when I've used it int he past, I've had to do things like replace the engine to get ignitions back
<awang> acharles: I've seen TF blow up an engine just once, way back, so it's possible
<awang> Just not likely, I think
<acharles> Didn’t you write TF?
<acharles> :P
<awang> acharles: It's been working for me, although idk how much it messes with balance
<awang> acharles: Nah, I wish
<awang> It would mean I actually did something significant
<acharles> Oh, right… Another person with an a name.
<acharles> So many names that start with A.
<awang> Maxsimal: I didn't know about the ignitions thing; I've only used the recovery functionality with planes
<awang> Haven't gotten to the point where I can actually start recovering rockets
<awang> acharles: Agathorn
<awang> aka jwvanderbeck
<Mike`> awang: interesting, need to try that. Because having to rebuild a rocket that failed to ignite on the pad sounds stupid. :)
<awang> Mike`: Yes, it is. Still got some balancing work to do, though
<awang> At least last time I played with ScrapYard I could launch sounding rockets every few days at the beginning of my career
<Maxsimal> awang: Yeah I was using it to either recover rockets that never left the pad (agathorned) or to recover sub-orbital rockets I built to be 100% reused - and when I did those, I'd always have to do some fixup on the rocket in the editor to get back into shape - refill the tanks, replace the engine, replace the launch clamps.
<awang> idk how much the KCT recovery thing messes with balancing. Definitely helps with the X-plane contracts, though
<awang> Maxsimal: I just reverted whenever I got ignition failures :P
<awang> Got tired of the fixed TF having really weird ignition failure probabilities
<awang> Didn't want to have to recover/relaunch a sounding rocket >10 times in a row just for a regular flight
<awang> And I don't think I ever ended up making a completely reusable sounding rocket, actually
<awang> Went straight from aerobee-style ones to disposable A-4 + black arrow combinations
<awang> Or bumpers
<Maxsimal> awang: Yeah I was using a reusable one to do biome hopping around different launch sites, for my speed run
<Maxsimal> awang: I won't be doing that again for the RIS game, though. I doubt i'll do any reuseables, since now much of the cost is in rollout.
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<acharles> I think I’d have more fun with RP-0/1 if there was a mod that took the test flight data and showed it in the ui and did nothing else. I’m weird. I never try to run past an engine’s rated time, but I revert whenever TF cases a launch failure.
<acharles> I’d uninstall TF, but then I wouldn’t know the rated burn times.
<acharles> I guess I could just disable it… maybe it still shows the burn times then.
<Mike`> just disable reverts in your games :S i wouldn't use parts like rescue towers without TF, in fact i never did use them, haven't really done crewed flight yet
<Maxsimal> acharles: I used to be like that - but then I started having fun planning ahead for TF failures. It doesn't help so much when you're just building thor-ables with a single engine per stage, but you CAN kind of work around TF when you're building multiengine stages
<acharles> I usually use R7’s
<acharles> I have lots of engines
<Maxsimal> acharles: Well then, you can work around TF a bit by having more engine than you need, and having outboard engines canted in a bit to point through COM so an outboard failure doesn't take you outside the limit of your TVC.
<acharles> Technically, R7’s can deal with most engine failures gracefully, even if it prevents them from going to orbit. But in KSP it’s hard to shutdown the opposite engine during a failure.
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<awang> Maxsimal: I did something a bit different for biome hopping
<awang> Took a plane with the science stuff and went on a 22-hour flight over all biomes
<awang> Didn't get upper atmosphere/low space data, but figured that low space could wait until a polar satellite
<awang> Still not entirely sure about upper atmosphere, since I haven't done anything with multiple launch sites
<awang> I think RP-1 still needs balancing to account for multiple launch sites
<awang> idk if it's assumed that the player will only use one
<awang> Otherwise, probably should just use Kourou for most things
<awang> I should also figure out what's going on with TF's ignition failure rate before RIS starts...
<awang> Or at least everyone should play with the debug dll to get more data
<awang> acharles: Probably not too difficult to disable TF failures while keeping it installed
<awang> Got a few other things to do first, unless there's an obvious solution while working on something else
<Mike`> 22hr flight? oO that must've taken you a week on your pc? :S
<Mike`> i think nathan recently always used a single launch site, also during the last RIS afair
<awang> Mike`: Took 1.5 days, I think?
<awang> Timewarp helps a lot, although I think I could only get up to 8x before weird things started happening
<awang> Wasn't too bad; just let KSP run in the background while doing other stuff
<awang> Check occasionally to see if I need to make a turn
<awang> Balancing for multiple launch sites might be tricky
<awang> Especially if we want to make multiple launch sites optional
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<Mike`> well, i think nathan mentioned not wanting to require launch site switcher
<Mike`> not sure if it makes much of a diff. for a RIS, people need to agree wether to use it or not
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<awang> I'm curious if KSCSwitcher is technically required
<awang> Would you just be stuck at the Cape without it?...
<awang> But yeah, RIS players will need to agree on a site
<awang> Otherwise players at Kourou would have it much easier than players at Baikonur
<awang> Or players at Vandenberg having an easier time with early game biome grinding
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> Wasn't someone working on a range safety mod?...
<awang> Something to limit directions you can launch from at various launch sites
<Mike`> awang: yes, i never installed kscswitcher and am stuck at the cape :)
<Mike`> awang: and err... that would sound complicated... and i don't care launching over urban areas :D
<awang> Mike`: Guess KSCSwitcher isn't required, then :D
<awang> Hey, launch corridors are Realistic (tm)
<Mike`> how does ksc switcher work anyway - do you need to build and upgrade launchpads at every site? hmhm..
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<Mike`> i mean... switching from the cape to baikonur would feel weird. but from the cape to VAB
<Mike`> s/VAB/VAFB/
<Qboid> Mike` meant to say: i mean... switching from the cape to baikonur would feel weird. but from the cape to VAFB
<Mike`> would make sense
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<awang> Mike`: I believe each site has independent buildings
<awang> So yeah, you'll need to build/upgrade launchpads separately at different sites
<awang> So multiple sites can be quite the drain on funds
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<schnobs> Still not loving KCT. Put in pipeline, warp, roll out, warp, find it's the dead of night, warp.
<schnobs> A lot of clicky just to launch a sounding rocket.
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<Maxsimal> schnobs: It's better than 'oh, it took me a week to progress my space program from launching a sounding rocket to a moonshot, because I launched a new rocket each day of the week'
<schnobs> I don't object to things taking time, but to the amount of useless user interaction it requires.
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<Maxsimal> So what would you eliminate from the series of clicks?
<schnobs> A shortcut to rollout would come in handy. Maybe also make it daytime-aware.
<schnobs> Don't see why reconditioning sets a own timer. Blocking the pad for a while after launch is OK, but it's rarely if ever an event I want to warp to.
<schnobs> And, coming to think of it, Moon in a week sounds preposterous but isn't all that bad - it involves many missions to get there no matter what the calendar says.
<schnobs> I consider "doing missions" to be "playing the game". Making the player click through menus just to make time pass, however...
<Mike`> well, it's usually not that bad. 1-2 more shirtcuts like "warp to" and "warp to launch" would be cool, true. besides that sometimes the KCT window disappears and you have to refetch it with another 1-2 clicks.
<schnobs> Something else I didn't like on past playthroughs: I desired and could have utilized multiple build pipelines in the era of early rocketry, when rockets are still relatively small and likely to go boom.
<schnobs> having to mariners ready on the same launch window, that kind of thing.
<schnobs> Also goes over well with test flight.
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<schnobs> By Saturn, there's little need for parallelization any more.
<Mike`> well, early launch vehicles build quick enough that i never felt the need for multiple pipelines
<Mike`> no idea how it's later in the game, multiple pipelines might or might not be useful depending on time, - but i think time increases when your rockets are human rated, thus they might be useful for crewed flight
<Probus> The first thing I do is turn off Roll-out for the simple reason of not wanting it to stop my warps
<Mike`> ...okay
<Mike`> i want it to stop my waprs because i usually want to launch ;)
<Probus> and...
<Probus> turn off pad reconditioning.
<schnobs> Mike`: As I understand it, Probus goes directly from construction to launch, does not pass rollout, does not deduct 30seconds of player time.
<Probus> Ha!
<schnobs> strikes me as a good compromise. Copied.
<Mike`> well, yes, a shortcut would be nice for that scenario
<Probus> Other than that, I have no complaints about KCT. Really like its versatility.
<Mike`> but, talking about wasted time
<Mike`> what *really* does waste player time is the game being slow. :|
<schnobs> Hmmm. "Tooling" means that every time I want to build something in a new diameter, I first need to find and click the tooling button?
<schnobs> Is there any more to it?
<schnobs> Probus: how do you disable rollout?
<schnobs> I see a button for reconditioning, but not rollout.
<Probus> I set it to 100% reconditioning.
<schnobs> Ah. nevermind -- the reconditioning button takes care of both.
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<Mike`> schnobs: i build my rocket just as usual. only when i decide it's fine, i open the tooling window to see all untooled parts and tool all the parts i need.
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<Probus> Where do you find a unit of payload?
<schnobs> ??
<Probus> for the contracts
<schnobs> sorry. I've heard, but had no RP-1 at the time.
<schnobs> Is it a tweakable on proc avionics, perhaps?
<Probus> Let's see
<Probus> Nope. Still can't find it.
<Mike`> theres stuff like sounding payload you can fill into tanks
<Probus> Ah ha. Thanks Mike`
<Mike`> some resources only show for service module tanks, i'm not sure about sounding payload
<schnobs> trying to take a nap. BBL.
<Probus> Yeah, its in with the service module tank.
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<awang> Yeah, having a way to have only some KCT events stop timewarp would be nice
<awang> idk how much internal changes that would require though
<awang> And multiple simultaneous builds would be nice
<awang> But that doesn't work too well right now
<awang> Since additional pipelines are significantly cheaper
<awang> Or at least you get a significant amount of benefit per build point, compared to the first build point
<awang> ScrapYard might also reduce the need for simultaneous builds
<awang> Since you have to wait to recover a vessel before building another one if you want the reduced rates
<awang> idk how much it breaks RP-1's balancing though
<Mike`> multiple build queues actually make life harder, not simpler, so... i don't think they'tre needed earlier
<awang> Harder how?
<soundnfury> Probus: are you sure noping rollout doesn't also bork rollout costs?
<soundnfury> a vital part of rp-1's balancing ;)
<Probus> Yep. I do believe that gets borked.
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<Mike`> harder as in you need to manage more than one queue, keep both saturated and thus plan ahead further
<soundnfury> Mike`: but that's *fun* :)
<Mike`> soundnfury: well, in a certain way, probably. We were discussing if we should start out with more tha one queue..
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<Mike`> What i would rather more like to have is parallel research
<soundnfury> maybe not *right* at the start, when there are literally only two things you can build (bees and A4)
<Probus> That's an idea Mike`
<Probus> That will unbalance things though
<Mike`> because i kinda dislike having a huge backlist, and never free research time for other/less important stuff :D
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<Mike`> Probus: it probably won't unbalance things if you make reserach slower per queue accordingly, eg if you keep total time constant
<Probus> That would defeat the purpose though
<Mike`> no
<Probus> I would rather research sequentially than have to wait for everything to finish.
<Mike`> if i just wanted faster research, i couldve said "i want faster" - but no, i don't want faster research
<Mike`> if at all reserach is too fast at normal difficulty because i could research orbital rocketry 58 in 55 :)
<Mike`> having multiple, slower queues prevents being too far ahead in a single area and lag totally behind in others, somewhat forces you to do parallel research
<Probus> From a realism standpoint, you are right.
<Probus> My ocean has disappeared.
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<awang> Mike`: That's not that bad, is it?
<awang> Just stuff something expensive into the other slot(s) if you don't have anything
<awang> So you can disassemble it and reuse for less money :P
<awang> In any case, planning is part of the fun, isn't it?
<awang> and nothing says you *have* to fill the pipelines at all times
<awang> It's just an option
<awang> But yeah, soundnfury has a point, since at the beginning the choice of rockets is rather limited
<awang> Later, as rockets get powerful enough to hit more launch windows, build queues help
<awang> Although that's pretty much how things are right now
<awang> And yes, please, parallel research would be nice
<awang> Research is typically the thing holding me back on my playthroughs
<awang> Especially avionics/RCS
<awang> The Russian engines can be pushed surprisingly far
<awang> I have Venus/Mars probes on 60 ton rockets, RD-107 boosters with RD-something upper stage (whatever the first Russian upper is)
<awang> KCT needs to get something to prevent research from being done out of order though
<awang> And the limiting factor with the Venus/Mars probes was the antenna/avionics/solar panels
<awang> And not wanting to go to the 150 ton pad >_<
<awang> Antennas are depressingly power-hungry
<awang> Or solar panels are depressingly weak
<Mike`> 60 ton sounds nice....dangit, i'm currently at around 100 tons for these.
<Mike`> although i don't have rd-something upper stages yet :s
<awang> Mike`: "these"?
<Mike`> mars/venus
<awang> Ah
<Mike`> although i'm not sure how much dv i will really need, never did one before
<awang> RD-0105 is the upper, I think
<awang> Low thrust, but fantastic ISP for the time
<Mike`> anyway, i'm not against parallel building, i'm just saying it's probably fine the way it is now, start with 1, get more later
<Mike`> yep, don't have that yet
<Mike`> am on the first orbital rocketry node
<awang> Ah, yes, orbital rocketry 1958
<Mike`> and said 100 ton rocket
<awang> Makes sense
<Mike`> but down to 60 tons sounds somewhat impressive :)
<awang> Yeah, just wish the first build queue upgrade weren't so insanely expensive
<awang> But extra build queues can be quite helpful, so it makes sense
<awang> Mike`: I think I pretty much *just* got the 150 ton pad
<awang> I ended up sinking a ton of cash into R&D points
<awang> So I could get the right engines and avionics
<awang> And solar panels
<Probus> It would also be nice if, when we build the same rocket, the next rockets start to come down in build time.
<awang> Probus: I think tooling is supposed to partially address that at least?
<awang> Mike`: But yeah, RD-0105 is insanely good
<Probus> Yes, it does.
<awang> RD-107 + RD-0105 + balloon tanks = decent amount of payload
<awang> Probus: The building the same rocket part may make a bit more sense if you could order multiple rockets at once
<awang> Buy 12, get the 13th free, since you're such a good customer
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<awang> How in the world did Russians get such a good gas generator kerolox engine so early
<Probus> :) Yes an assembly line would definitely be realistic. Very realistic.
<Probus> Once tooling is set up you can crank them out pretty fast.
<Probus> One thing that is missing and would be hard to implement (because it would clutter things up) is a list of tooled parts you can choose from.
<awang> Probus: I mean, there is a list of parts for which you have tooling
<awang> So close-ish?
<Mike`> awang: oh right, i haven't used balloon tanks yet, just used tank 3s
<Probus> Where awang?
<Mike`> Probus: rp-0 window
<awang> Mike`: Balloon tanks OP
<awang> Apparently they don't reflect the real-life downsides enough
<Mike`> just click the rp-0 button -.> tooling
<awang> Because I can't find a reason not to use them
<awang> Probus: ^What Mike` said
<Mike`> awang: well, reason is/should be price
<awang> Mike`: In theory
<awang> Problem being that they aren't that much more expensive
<awang> Or at least not that much more last time I checked
<Mike`> rollout costs should be much more expensive especially, did you compare those? well, maybe they need tuning
<awang> Considering the savings when using the 60t pad instead of the 150t, it's a pretty easy win
<awang> Yeah, I did
<awang> Mike`: One check I did a while back
<awang> I could use a 2m x 15.3m Tank-III for the first stage, or a 2m x 14.8m balloon tank
<Mike`> saving because pad upgrade costs or because launches cost more on larger pads? the latter got reduced somewhat i think
<awang> Vacuum dv goes from 4810 to 4992, per-rocket cost goes from 6477 to 6668, build time goes from ~149 days to ~155 days, rollout cost goes from 24123.1 to 24921
<awang> So not a huge difference
<awang> The latter
<awang> Did they get reduced? I'll probably need to check again then
<awang> The stats there were taken 2017-Nov-29
<Mike`> yeah nathan adjusted rollout time and costs when he came back
<Mike`> costs at least
<awang> Yeah, I see it in the logs
<awang> Looks like I'll need to redo those calculations
<awang> The parts that changed seem to be based on the pad levels, though
<awang> So idk how much those numbers would change
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<Mike`> yeah, i think high level pads were too expensive
<awang> I mean, they *were* supposed to incentivize using smaller pads if possible
<Rokker> anyone got a good RO build they wouldn't mind sharing
<Rokker> I lost mine in the transfer to my new computer
<Rokker> along with like 12 versions of ksp stretching back to 0.21.0
<Rokker> :(
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<Rokker> neat
<Probus> Back to the tooling question. Lets say I want to take a tooled battery from one rocket and put it on another rocket. I don't see how you do that.
<awang> Probus: Tooling is based on sizes
<awang> So as long as the new battery has a size/shape similar to the original one, you'll get the tooling discount
<Probus> OK. I'll have to try that out.
<awang> Probus: This is really clear with a new career
<awang> Tool a 1m cylindrical tank, costs 1 fund
<awang> Change to 2 meters length, cost rockets up to a few hundred funds
<awang> Back to 1 meter, back to 1 fund
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<Mike`> Probus, yep. tool a certain size to have low cost. change the length, and costs and costs to retool rise moderately. Change the diameter, and costs/costs to retool are back to untooled level.
<soundnfury> Probus: and you can find out what sizes you have tooled so far by looking in the RP-1 GUI
<soundnfury> also, you can vary both dimensions by up to 4% from the tooled value without having to retool
<schnobs> From what I understand about manufacturing, extra length should be a lot easier to come by than a wider diameter.
<soundnfury> yep. And that's how it is in RP-1
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<Mike`> !tell NathanKell* I added the tag to the 625mBonny, but i cannot remove the "Tag" part because that belongs to a formula cell which is locked, so you or pap would have to do that, i guess. Also, pap says to edit the sheet and rebuild, not just commit to the repo. :D
<Qboid> Mike`: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<schnobs> Hmmm. I can't see how much time I have for a contract before accepting it.
<Mike`> schnobs, it's there for contracts that have a limit, if there's none, the contract has no limit.
* schnobs is aghast at how dificult it is to add a small battery to his first sounding rocket.
<schnobs> Also, has someone tweaked up the power requirements for transmissions?
<schnobs> The RP-0 menu needs a "just tool it all, fer crissakes" button.
<Mike`> :)
<awang> schnobs: I'm going to add that button
<awang> With that text
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<awang> schnobs: An extremely hacked together version of your suggestion:
<awang> I have no clue if it works, since I'm at work and can't fire up KSP
<awang> Just updated; used < instead of >=
<Mike`> awang, and i thought i was doing bad things when i was watching the chat soemtimes while working :D
<awang> Now that I think about it, there are probably some race-condition-y things in there
<awang> So idk what will happen if you have multiple copies of an untooled part on your vessel
<awang> Mike`: Don't follow my example
<awang> Figured it'd be quick, and a nice break from C++ template shenanigans
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<Bornholio> rokker i have a full gamedat that works but release is soon(tm)
<Bornholio> what tne linky or you doing a build?
<Bornholio> wnat
<Bornholio> bah wnat
<Bornholio> sideways typing is not my forte