<armed_troop>
awang: if I think it's hung is there a way to debug?
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<awang>
armed_troop: I'm not aware of one for mac, unfortunately
<armed_troop>
is there a log somewhere?
<awang>
I just look in Player.log and see if if KSP is still spitting out lines
<awang>
You're on macOS, right?
<armed_troop>
yeah
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: Don't stages like to point engine-down?
<awang>
~/Library/Logs/Unity/Player.log is where the most info will be
<awang>
armed_troop: Unfortunately, KSP doesn't put out as much debugging info as I would like
<armed_troop>
that helps
<awang>
Freezes usually don't result in anything in Player.log
<awang>
Crashes will get you a stack trace, usually
<awang>
Sometimes C# exceptions will just cause a crash, with no stack trace
<awang>
Like a NRE
<ProjectThoth>
SRBuchanan: I'd imagine that nose-in entry vehicles have the same "problem" the CSM did on splashdown - two stable configurations.
<awang>
Or at least, I think so?
<awang>
Been a while
<ProjectThoth>
One with the engines up, and one with the engines down.
<armed_troop>
looks like Kopernicus is blowing up
<awang>
That's relatively unusual, I think?
<awang>
idk
<awang>
I have 30 mods to update, at least
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* schnobs
looks at golden spreadsheet
<schnobs>
Is it currently advisable to try and assemble RP-0 for ksp131?
<awang>
schnobs: It works, at least
<Bornholio>
awang, output log.txt for TF data?
<armed_troop>
I'm having freezing on the "loading" spinner
<armed_troop>
after the loading bar is done
<awang>
Bornholio: I think it should be there?
<awang>
armed_troop: Sometimes KSP takes a while to actually load
<awang>
Er
<awang>
*takes a while to get past that loading screen
<awang>
At least on my computer, it's usually outputting texture-related things in the log?
<awang>
Bornholio: Search for "IgnitionFail" in the log
<ProjectThoth>
But, I mean, I don't see why that reentry plan would have any major shortcomings over horizontal entry... arguably, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to not have to deal with 4-5Gs perpendicular to the tanks.
<soundnfury>
ehh you probably still get those forces during the flip anyway
<Bornholio>
i have an ignitionfail but nothing in logs
stratochief_ is now known as stratochief
<schnobs>
Ahem... maybe I'm looking at the wrong spreadsheet...
<awang>
Bornholio: Uhhhhh
<schnobs>
awang: just to be sure, I'm talking about KSP v1.3.1, not 1.2.x
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Not sustained, though. Might be worth running the numbers on.
<awang>
Bornholio: I forgot to upload two more dlls
<awang>
There were only two in the VS bin folder, but all of them in the GameData folder
<awang>
idk why
<awang>
I updated the folder in the link I sent earlier
<Slaintemaith>
Found what I was looking for. nvm. =)
<Slaintemaith>
Thanks, awang!
<Slaintemaith>
Yep. found the link. =)
<Bornholio>
standard peg is in base MJ
<Slaintemaith>
Right. I wanted the Shuttle edition, though, as it seems happier.
<schnobs>
Just btw, what's the point behind procfairings for everything?
<Bornholio>
none right now
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<Bornholio>
they have a few more interstage elements, but normal PF will cover fine
<Bornholio>
and there is no working PFFE that i know of
<awang>
PFFE is just cfgs
<awang>
So there shouldn't be much, if anything, that's version-dependent
<awang>
Proc fairings as is doesn't play too well with tooling, imho
<awang>
No way to start off with oversized fairings and let your payload grow into it
<schnobs>
IIRC PFFE turns every fairing base into a proc fairing base. If that's still all there is, it doesn't add any value; but it does render specialty fairings unusable.
<schnobs>
Coming to think about it, I wonder if the trouble with FASA Agena fairings was ultimately down to their proc-ification.
<Bornholio>
will deleting the kspedia pages have any negative effect?
<Bornholio>
awang loading errors (19 related to RP-0/tree/ECM-Engines.cfg
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<Slaintemaith>
So with the FASA Apollo CSM/LM docked--anyone have issues controlling that? I can't hold retrograde when circularizing around the moon. It's like the RCS is borked.
<schnobs>
Doesn't the engine gimbal? (IIRC it does, even a lot) -- you shouldn't need RCS in the first place.
<Slaintemaith>
It's worse without RCS..
<schnobs>
MJ PID controller going bonkers? You know about Attitude Adjustment?
<schnobs>
(sorry if that's all an old hat to you, trying to find out where you're coming from)
<Slaintemaith>
Oh. Nope. I know bupkis about Attitude Adjustment. Or pids. I'm just a stupiud farm boy.
<Slaintemaith>
I suspect that might help with a lot of over/under control situations, however. Should one be smart enough to use it. I don't understand what any of that stuff means.
<schnobs>
More recent MJ versions give you the option to toggle between the MJ and kOS controller. Should be a simple checkbox. Try that first.
<Slaintemaith>
Yeah. It just nudges back and forth and eventually goes off=kilter.
<schnobs>
Otherwise, save, start your burn, and start trying random numbers in different fields. Once you found a setting where you vessel behaves, remember those settings, reload, and do the burn for real.
<Slaintemaith>
I don't have KoS installed...
<Bornholio>
just uses kOS style PID
<Slaintemaith>
Gotcha. It's still yawing all over the place.
<schnobs>
you don't need to. The KOS controller has been integrated into MJ as another option.
<Slaintemaith>
Is this normal for FASA? It used to behave.
<schnobs>
Or.... hehe. Tweak down the gimbal range.
<schnobs>
Stock MJ tends to oversteer, and behaves better if you have less control.
<Slaintemaith>
Hrm.
<Slaintemaith>
This actually feels like the RCS isn't powerful enough to fight against 'x' force, and the gimbals don't even try--enabled or no.
<Slaintemaith>
I promise you, it's not frustrating at all.
<awang>
Bornholio: The specific errors should be in KSP.log
<awang>
Bornholio: Are the errors with MM 3.0.2?
<Bornholio>
my console doesn't display anything now, also no ignition stuffs in the log even with a failure
<awang>
Uhhhh
<Bornholio>
ah yes i have 3.0.2
<Bornholio>
need to use 3.0.1?
<awang>
No, just wondering
<awang>
I had 3.0.1 and no errors
<awang>
Wondering if 3.0.2 changed something
<awang>
Nothing in the logs is weird
<awang>
Pretty sure I built those in debug mode...
<awang>
Let me fire up and try again
<awang>
It'll be quite a while though
<Bornholio>
no problem i'mbusy now so maybe load in the morning
<awang>
Alright
<awang>
Pap: How do I change ModuleToggleCrossfeed for a decoupler in the tech tree spreadsheet?
<Pap>
You cannot. That should be added in an external file I think awang
<awang>
Pap: Ah, so not in TREE-Parts?
<Pap>
It wasn't a module we configured the sheet for.
<awang>
Alright
<Pap>
No, that will be overwritten
<awang>
So in a different file, in a later pass
<awang>
I'll take a look
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<schnobs>
Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'ModuleEnginesRF'
<schnobs>
famous last words?
<Bornholio>
.dll probably
<Bornholio>
or you didn't remove the mfT folder
<Bornholio>
master (Does not have DLL) plus get RP1 .dll, only install real fuels dont install ModularFuelTanks
<schnobs>
aha...
<schnobs>
Quite generally. When the spreadsheed points me to master, I do a git clone, look for a Gamedata folder in the download, copy it's contents over to my ksp install. Right procedure so far?
<Bornholio>
except RF is wonky
<Bornholio>
if has both RF and MFT in it and is missing a .dll plus you need custom .dll anyway for RP1
<Bornholio>
it
<Bornholio>
I'm sure its the biggest pain point for most trying to build RP1 right now
<schnobs>
OK, thanks. I dutifully copied over MFT as well.
<schnobs>
I'm partway through the spreadsheed, should amount to a working RO.
<schnobs>
I get a small number of MM errors related to engine configs before KSP crashes.
<schnobs>
Hmmm.
<schnobs>
I just got me RO master.... I guess that's wrong?
<Bornholio>
yes, dev branch
<Bornholio>
and also Developmental RP0 :)
<schnobs>
OK, I'll watch out.
<schnobs>
Hmm. how and where does git do it's magic (displaying the selected branch's files)? Do I need to enter into RealismOverhaul before I can safely copy it's Gamedata older?
<pianojosh>
i have finally been getting around to following Bornholio's install order, and I think I've done it all right
<pianojosh>
i'm getting this:
<pianojosh>
"Error - Cannot use operators with insert value: @ENTRYCOSTMODS"
<pianojosh>
in the logs
<pianojosh>
and MM says it can't create the cache file because of 19 errors in GameData/RP-0/Tree/ECM-Engines.cfg
<schnobs>
Bornholio: thanks, I've been trying to follow that spreadsheet. The problems, in my case, were a) MFT and b) using RO master rather than dev.
<awang>
Wait
<awang>
Does RP-1 still require a custom DLL?
<schnobs>
KSP seems to work now, or at least went past the point where it crashed before.
<awang>
Could have sworn that the RP-1-specific changes got merged
<awang>
Yeah, looks like the new MM doesn't like @ENTRYCOSTMODS
<awang>
3.0.1 accepted it
<awang>
blowfish: Any idea what's wrong with @ENTRYCOSTMODS?
<awang>
schnobs: To pick the right branch, clone, then git checkout dev
<awang>
Then the GameData folder should have the right files
<pianojosh>
@awang interesting, i'll try 3.0.1
<pianojosh>
i tried 3.0.3 and 3.0.2
<blowfish>
link to the patch?
<awang>
pianojosh: I was on 3.0.1, just updated to 3.0.2, started getting the errors
<Qboid>
[#88] title: Allow 0 or many spaces before operator | When applying an operator (`+\-*/^!`) to a value there must be exactly one whitespace character before the operator, this allows 0 or more than one. | https://github.com/sarbian/ModuleManager/issues/88
<awang>
The cfg in question doesn't have NEEDS
<pianojosh>
those are the two PRs after 3.0.1
<awang>
Doesn't have spaces/0s before operator|
<awang>
So idk?
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [07.02.2018 15:30:53]: "I wouldn't be that quick to trust my code :P But yeah, the changes are mostly ergonomic changes more than anything else"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [07.02.2018 15:42:22]: "I think the RF README needs to be updated. It says that SolverEngines installs need to be removed before installing RF. Isn't SolverEngines required for AJE, at least?"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [07.02.2018 15:42:48]: "And required by RF, too, apparently"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [07.02.2018 15:43:07]: "Unless it's just to ensure the right SolverEngines version is used?"
<awang>
Hey, he lives!
<NathanKell>
awang: Yes, I think at one point there were bad versions of it around--the readme also says to delete your RF folder too :]
<schnobs>
wo-hoo!
<NathanKell>
And yep, I do. I was just busy in RL for a few days :)
<NathanKell>
heya schnobs!
<pianojosh>
trying 3.0.1 now, will report back shortly
<awang>
NathanKell: Any hints as to where in TF I should look first for performance issues?
<awang>
Looking into the ignition rate thing, figure might as well look around in other places too
<blowfish>
looking
<blowfish>
this error message is unfortunately not great - it refers to some value in the node, but doesn't specify which
<NathanKell>
awang: One big issue is that *every* module checks whether it should be enabled every frame...by doing a lot of work
<NathanKell>
Like, a lot a lot
<NathanKell>
(it parses a configuration string and then does some work on that and then string-comps it against other stuff)
<blowfish>
hmm, I guess in allowing zero spaces before the operator, I have told MM to interpret that as a +=
<blowfish>
(MM has no way of knowing that there's a space between the + and =)
<awang>
pianojosh: np, glad to hear it worked!
<awang>
Even then, fixing MM is preferable to downgrading
<awang>
NathanKell: Guessing that TF should be taking advantage of GameEvents?
<awang>
Although it seems that GameEvents may not be ganular enough?
<taniwha>
EVERYTHING should take advantage of GameEvents
<awang>
blowfish: Time to give MM a proper parser?
<awang>
With proper grammar?
<awang>
:P
<taniwha>
awang: there are ways to make game events less heavy
<NathanKell>
awang: Heck, it should just do it once on scene change and then not care
<NathanKell>
It's not like you can change engine configs during flight
<blowfish>
awang: it's not that. KSP splits on the = and then strips out white space
<blowfish>
so MM sees "Vikas-1+" and then "0"
<awang>
NathanKell: Alright, I'll see what I can do
<awang>
Might take a while though
<NathanKell>
<3
<awang>
blowfish: Ah, I see
<awang>
KSP needs a proper parser then
<blowfish>
yeah
<taniwha>
blowfish: more it strips leading/trailing WS
<blowfish>
yes, that's what I meant
<taniwha>
suspected, but good to clear it up for others :)
<Bornholio>
could TF predetermine a when instead of rolling tick by tick
<blowfish>
should we require that the operator has at least one whitespace character before it?
<NathanKell>
Bornholio: tbf the failure evaluations aren't all that expensive IIRC
<blowfish>
most patches I've seen are properly spaced, but at some point some's going to ask why @foo+=2 doesn't work
<taniwha>
NathanKell: every expense adds up, though
<awang>
Oh, the failure evaluations aren't expensive?
<awang>
So the checking for enabling is by far the most expensive?
<NathanKell>
It's by far the best place to start, at any rate
<awang>
Squad pls give profiler
<NathanKell>
awang: Sarbian did
<NathanKell>
taniwha: well yeah :]
<taniwha>
but yeah, grab a profiler and hit the big ones first
<Slaintemaith>
Yes, the FASA CM/LM has serious RCS or engine gimbal issues.
<NathanKell>
awang: IMS the failure checks are basically "take a data point, evaluate a curve, run a random()" which is just not that expensive compared to parsing/comping strings
<awang>
NathanKell: Yeah, I see the post, but unfortunately it doesn't come close to working for me
<NathanKell>
yo Slaintemaith! Good to see you
<NathanKell>
awang: Ah dang :(
<awang>
Unity appears to be seriously broken on my machine
<Slaintemaith>
Heya Nathan!
<awang>
Opening the editor yields a grey screen
<awang>
The debug executables don't work
<awang>
I'm sad :(
<awang>
NathanKell: Yeah, guess I can see where the performance issues come from
<NathanKell>
ugh, stinks about the debug mode not working
<awang>
Expected a bit better from Agathorn :(
<NathanKell>
Agathorn writes for clarity, not perf :)
<taniwha>
clarity and performance are not mutually exclusive :(
<NathanKell>
And flexibility
<NathanKell>
And yes, of course. But there is a tradeoff, see Linq :P
<taniwha>
flexibility is another matther
<NathanKell>
quite
<taniwha>
Linq does not make for clarity
<taniwha>
(just look at the Kethane code :( )
<awang>
NathanKell: Ah, I see
<awang>
NathanKell: Any experience with Slinq?
<awang>
taniwha: Kethane is linq abuse?
<taniwha>
yeah
<NathanKell>
There's a clear divide between enterprise/work programmers and game programmers ;)
<taniwha>
though admittedly fluent abuse
<NathanKell>
See also RoverDude's code
<NathanKell>
(in addition to Majiir and Agathorn)
<taniwha>
Majiir >>> RoverDude
<NathanKell>
well OF COURSE
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<NathanKell>
I mean, damp squib >>>> Bob
<Bornholio>
so mean
<Bornholio>
:P
<taniwha>
* > RD
<NathanKell>
You didn't have to rewrite it, Bornholio :P
<NathanKell>
Or deal with the man
<NathanKell>
daily.
<awang>
NathanKell: How do you tell enterprise/work from game programmers?
<awang>
Loops vs abstraction abuse?
<awang>
damp squib?
<awang>
bob?
<taniwha>
awang: perf vs job security
<NathanKell>
lulz
<awang>
What did Bornholio rewrite?
<taniwha>
awang: Bob = RoverDude
<awang>
lololol
<Bornholio>
lol
<NathanKell>
awang: for practical examples, see those three's code vs., say, ferram4's
<UmbralRaptor>
Bob Palmer
<ferram4>
Are we using my code as a bad example, I hope?
<NathanKell>
A good one, sorry.
<ferram4>
I don't exactly have high opinions of it. :P
<NathanKell>
Try harder next time.
<taniwha>
ferram4: only for clarity ;)
<NathanKell>
Heh
<taniwha>
oh, and Roll autopilot
<taniwha>
(there is something very wrong it there: it works great until you change your heading)
<ferram4>
taniwha, trust me, it's a lot clearer than it used to be.
<taniwha>
oh, I'm sure
<ferram4>
And it's somehow clearer than the actual aero codes.
<taniwha>
heh
<ferram4>
Which just shows how little I've really optimized it.
<awang>
So FAR is clear but maybe not that well optimized?
<awang>
Guessing most aero code isn't written in C# though?
<ferram4>
It is somwhere in the middle.
<ferram4>
It could be far clearer, but that would hit performance even more.
<taniwha>
awang: C# is not that bad for speed
<ferram4>
It also could stand to be far more optimized.
<taniwha>
far better than python
<ferram4>
At the cost of my sanity.
<NathanKell>
Wait, you got some left?
<NathanKell>
Lucky you!
<Bornholio>
no kidding
<ferram4>
I think I do anyway.
<awang>
Someone needs to put C# on the JVM
<awang>
How is linq performance-wise?
<awang>
Minus gc issues?
<taniwha>
not as good as a dedicated loop
<NathanKell>
Its perf isn't bad per se, it's just easy to do more loops than you think you are
<ferram4>
That's like asking how deadly jumping out of a plane without a parachute is.
<ferram4>
Minus the impact.
<NathanKell>
and do 2 loops where 1 that did 2 things would be better
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<taniwha>
awang: the problem with linq is you will have a loop going over a loop over a loop... (depending on your expression) when you could do it with /one/ loop and a chain of ifs
<taniwha>
(I won't even use part.FindModulesImplementing<>() in an "inner" loop)
<saabstory88>
NathanKell: Starting to dump the requested items to a new repo
<saabstory88>
Had to pull some of this stuff off an old Macbook
<awang>
taniwha: Sounds like issues with functional programs in general?
<taniwha>
s/functional//
<awang>
touche
<taniwha>
:)
<taniwha>
but yeah
<soundnfury>
o/ NathanKell
<soundnfury>
how's life?
<NathanKell>
Lifey!
<soundnfury>
not don't-talk-to-me-about-lifey then?
<NathanKell>
(busy the last few days--a friend of mine celebrated her birthday early, so we pushed my party off a week until yesterday night, and Thursday was a work get-together, and the rest of the week was kinda busy too)
<soundnfury>
I see :)
<taniwha>
NathanKell: another notch on the candle?
<taniwha>
(for you)
<NathanKell>
Yep! Me and the groundhog both
<taniwha>
happy birthday then :)
<taniwha>
mine's been and gone
<NathanKell>
Ah, I know we wished Jim a happy one at sync, or at least in chat--did we miss yours?
<taniwha>
yeah
<taniwha>
24/1
<taniwha>
no worries, though
<NathanKell>
Ah jeez! Happy belated birthday!
<taniwha>
for me, it is just "another notch on the candle" (and I have trouble counting the notches)
<NathanKell>
heh
<taniwha>
but thanks
<Bornholio>
47
<taniwha>
Bornholio: true, but remember that I now have trouble counting past 2 ;)
<Bornholio>
thats my best guess if right my psychic powers have grown, at the cost of my sanity
<taniwha>
it is correct
<Bornholio>
soon i'l join you then
<Slaintemaith>
The Memgraph mod targets the garbage collection routine of Unity, no?
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<awang>
Slaintemaith: Sort of?
<awang>
Might depend on your machine
<awang>
Doesn't for me, at least
<Slaintemaith>
Hrm. My machine is screamin' Or should be.
<taniwha>
Slaintemaith: tortured screamin' or dragster screamin'?
<Slaintemaith>
But it's like I install 'x' mods, and then it stutters badly. Like .5 seconds every 4-7 seconds.
<Slaintemaith>
...enough to make me want to chew my own foot off.
<awang>
Slaintemaith: Might depend on your install?
<awang>
I have a bajillion mods, but don't really get stutters
<awang>
Possibly because I get garbage framerate
<Slaintemaith>
Define: install?
<awang>
Well
<awang>
I guess a better word would be either computer/mods/os
<awang>
Or everything
<awang>
In other words, I probably have no clue
<Slaintemaith>
*Laughs*
<Slaintemaith>
Fair enough.
<taniwha>
Slaintemaith: I get nothing worse than flickers from green to yellow for the MET, no long pauses
<taniwha>
and then a gradual slowdown (when using KER, I think)
<NathanKell>
nomz then gaming with a buddy, o/
<NathanKell>
probably won't be back tonight but we'll see
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
<blowfish>
thoughts on the MM stuff? What's more important to support? "foo+ = bar" or "@foo+=1"
<NathanKell|AFK>
The latter is used all over
<NathanKell|AFK>
It's pretty vital
<blowfish>
It wouldn't have worked before, exactly one whitespace was required before the operator
<NathanKell|AFK>
Ohhh I thought you meant the operator period
<NathanKell|AFK>
Then go for the left one, nobody should be rewarded for failing to space their ops :P
<NathanKell|AFK>
o/
<soundnfury>
blowfish: longest token rule
<blowfish>
soundnfury: ?
<soundnfury>
if "foo+" is a valid token, then "foo+=1" should parse as foo+ = 1
<blowfish>
ahh
<soundnfury>
rule is from C
<blowfish>
actually interesting
<awang>
Why is "+" allowed as part of an identifier?
<soundnfury>
Good question.
<blowfish>
now that I'm testing the regex, it wouldn't have matched Vikas-1+ properly before either
<blowfish>
so I think this is another case of a hidden bug now becoming explicit
<soundnfury>
regex... please tell me this is a lexer and you have a proper parser?
<ProjectThoth>
For a split second, I thought that was Dragon's 1/72 Saturn V.
<Probus>
I don't know if I'm gonna build the tower.
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<Slaintemaith>
lamont: Have you messed with any space shuttles using your space shuttle guidance? =)
<Slaintemaith>
I've been trying to drag the Cormorant Aeronology shuttle in to orbit--kicking and screaming. I finally have the SRBs working (by using someone else's) and have launch controllable (using MechJeb's 'hybrid' attitude control) but now the guidance itself is acting wonky. Intended orbit is 191km, but the PEGAS wants to toss it WAY up over 300km. I know it's supposed to go over desired apoapsis a little, but that seems excessive... =)
<Slaintemaith>
The fact that the SRBs can take off a wing or two at sep is something else I need to work on... But one thing at a time.
<awang>
Bornholio: I just realized, maybe the reason you're not seeing any TF things in your logs is because TF has a separate logging setting
<awang>
So you'll need to go into the TF settings window and change that
<Bornholio>
k, but my comment was that all my console logging dissapeared even my RSsve spam and even if i manually type an entry. It is still logged, just not displayed in console
<Bornholio>
after i put those 4 dlls in
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
I'm not really sure what would cause that, to be honest
<awang>
I don't see any changes that would have anything to do with that
<Mike`>
!tell Pap I'd like to update Bluedog's Atlas engines (the old ones are deprecated and will be removed) - can i just replace the old part names with the new ones in the rp-0 sheet and do a PR for an equivalent RO change?
<Qboid>
Mike`: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap>
Mike`: no reason why that shouldn't work
<Qboid>
Pap: Mike` left a message for you in #RO [11.02.2018 15:43:54]: "I'd like to update Bluedog's Atlas engines (the old ones are deprecated and will be removed) - can i just replace the old part names with the new ones in the rp-0 sheet and do a PR for an equivalent RO change?"
<Mike`>
i mean it will break old parts, but seeing as the new release is save breaking anyway
<Pap>
Yup
<Mike`>
plus the parts will break eventually when BD removes them...
<Mike`>
okay, i'll do that then
<Mike`>
should i also do a PR for rp-0, or can i just wait for someone to rebuild those files from the sheet? I'd guess the latter
<Mike`>
at least i have no idea how i would/if i could rebuild those files from the sheet myself
<Mike`>
:)
<Slaintemaith>
Mike`: Did the vernier Atlas engine ever get a FAR fix?
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, yes, it will be in the next BD version
<Slaintemaith>
Cool. I was pretty sure CobaltWolf was at the Eff-it stage.
<Slaintemaith>
Since it seemed to have something to do with the 3D model (or now it's built) than the .cfg.
<Slaintemaith>
-built +compiled
<Mike`>
well, the model fix didn't help much, but it might be that FAR doesn't support such complex models well - thus we created a patch to make FAR use the colliders only which seems to work perfectly
<Slaintemaith>
Oh, cool. It just seems queer to me that the deprecated 101 worked fine, and this one didn't--seeing as they're pretty much the same size/mass/shape/etc...
<armed_troop>
(some stuff is missing from your sheet)
<armed_troop>
oh wait it's later down. why's it twice then?
<Slaintemaith>
Mike`: But I won
<Bornholio>
notes
<Slaintemaith>
t pretend to know how FAR or model shapes work or affect anything in-game.
<Pap>
Mike`: I would wait for the rebuild instead of pushing a PR
<Mike`>
Pap, thanks, will do that
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, yeah, i don't know much about modeling either, wanted to take a look at the models but blender import didn't really work :|
<Slaintemaith>
I forget whoever it was last night suggested I try AttitudeAdjustment with MechJeb, but that was a winner. 'Hybrid' seems to make shuttles move properly.
<Slaintemaith>
And so my quest to make Pap's shuttle work in RSS/RO with an ascent autopilot: continues.
<Bornholio>
pap did you ever get to a working install?
<Pap>
Bornholio sorta. It loaded fine, but I had some issues with it. I haven't gotten back to booting it up yet. 😢
<Bornholio>
do you want my gamedata link?
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<armed_troop>
Bornholio: also your link for Wild Blue Tools is out of date
<Bornholio>
no it is not
<armed_troop>
1.39.2 is broken?
<Bornholio>
it is the correct version specificed by the Great Pap :)
<armed_troop>
that's interesting because in the changes since 1.39 there was KSP 1.3 and 1.3.1 support added
<Bornholio>
I can test if it works witht he new version later. feel free to try it out once your running orbital pods
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: The shuttle PEGAS. Should that be stable, post SRB sep, and be at 50 degrees pitch?
<Slaintemaith>
Ever? =)
<Bornholio>
if you choose settings that result in that :P
<Slaintemaith>
It's got converged guidance, and stable, but it looks anything but that.
<Slaintemaith>
So what settings for a space sh uttle are sane?
<Slaintemaith>
I get that my settings are probably stupid. =)
<Bornholio>
how much does it swing when you leave pitch program
<Slaintemaith>
(Just like I get that -I- am stupid)
<Slaintemaith>
It goes into unguided, so barely at all.
<Bornholio>
ah, so whats your pitch rate and time?
<Slaintemaith>
Then SRB sep happens, and it points to 50 degrees.
<Slaintemaith>
Rate is default .75 Start at 16, end at 50./
<Bornholio>
make your pitch program slightly longer than Srb SEP and try that
<Slaintemaith>
At 16, it's already past 150m/s and close to 1km.
<Slaintemaith>
Gotcha.
<Slaintemaith>
What's a good angle to have it when the SRBs go?
<Slaintemaith>
(Since one can plan for that)
<Bornholio>
big hammers take you a long way, probably pretty low
<Slaintemaith>
30ish?
<Bornholio>
probably a good start
<Slaintemaith>
I keep forgetting as this is RSS, I can basically do this 'by the numbers.' Anyway, with those it went into 'unguided' after sep. That's 'bad' isn't it?
<Bornholio>
so real Srb sep happens at 46km with an AP of 67km
<Bornholio>
that sounds pretty far over maybe it does need to go into guidance before Sep
<Slaintemaith>
46 doesn't work with that, as the srbs had too much power and took out my ET.
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<armed_troop>
Bornholio: is everything including optionals tested against 1.3.1?
<Bornholio>
I have everything loaded and running in the install order page
<Bornholio>
RSSVE is sir spamalot, and there are quite a few background errors and NRE's in my logs but it all runs
<armed_troop>
I made the mistake of installing the EVE default configs which aren't necessary because of RSSVE
<Bornholio>
yeah RSsve is always a hard one to get running.
<armed_troop>
do x-science and krash still require DLL replacement?
<Bornholio>
yes, [x] unless it updated today, will stutter a lot.
<armed_troop>
imo a version column would be nice... or at least something to reference which version/build/commithash is tested
<Slaintemaith>
"Start PEG @ Stage #" # refers to the stage in the list on the dv stats?
<awang>
armed_troop: KRASH technically works, it just doesn't work too nicely with TF/tooling
<Slaintemaith>
Hrm. Nope. Still steepens to 50-55 degrees and rocks between them. Like a child in a corner.
<armed_troop>
sooo [x] science loads first, before the mods that start with 000_
<armed_troop>
is this correct / a good thing?
<Slaintemaith>
say it's stable. Says it's converged, but my apoapsis is beyond 650km now.
<Slaintemaith>
Wait. The ET separated, and the OMS engines just brought everything back into line.
<Slaintemaith>
Just kidding. That didn't happen.
<Slaintemaith>
Ap: 1.41Mm Pe: -4.32Mm. Good stuff.
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<Slaintemaith>
I've even got the staging numbers very close to IRL. Staging at 40ish with an ap of 70ish.
<Slaintemaith>
Then they sep and it points to 50 degrees and hangs.
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<Grayduster>
Anyone else noticing a significant delay when purchasing parts in the VAB? (under 1.3.1 RP1)
<armed_troop>
well I'm not getting tons of NREs anymore
<Slaintemaith>
Yep. Everything goes great up to SRB separation. Then 50 degrees.
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, you're using lamonts latest dev version? and fwiw, today i did a rocket with liquid boosters and that worked perfectly with peg
<Mike`>
with latest dev i mean latest release, peg 14
<awang>
Slaintemaith: IIRC there was some funkiness with PEG and SRBs
<awang>
idk if it's been addressed yet
<Slaintemaith>
Yeah, it's 14.
<Slaintemaith>
awang: I'm not going to say that isn't ironic. I wonder if the Atlas version does better with SRBs?
<Slaintemaith>
Hrm.
<Bornholio>
module manager 3.0.3 out today
<Slaintemaith>
Oh. Well. T'heck with it.
<Slaintemaith>
I find myself saying that more and more lately.
<awang>
Slaintemaith: Pretty sure earlier versions of the shuttle PEG would work too
<awang>
It's a relatively recent thing, from what I remember
<Bornholio>
kopernicus 1.3.1-4 released today
<Bornholio>
and then -5 quickly
<Mike`>
errr
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, awang i did have trouble with atlas peg and SRBs/boosters
<Mike`>
so while you might want to try it out, i'd probably rather fiddle with peg14 and ask lamont if stuff doesn't work :)
<awang>
Alright, guess it isn't a recent thing then
<Mike`>
atlas peg just "crashed" for me when srbs separated
<Mike`>
*froze rather than crashed, just stopped with the pitch program
<Slaintemaith>
Dunno how recent. peg 9 is doing 50 degrees at SRB sep.
<Slaintemaith>
"Convereged, stable guidance" my bottom. =)
<Slaintemaith>
-e
<Slaintemaith>
Mind you all: I'm rather banking on the fact that it's something I don't understand/am doing wrong.
<Slaintemaith>
The only thing I'm seeing different is how MechJeb is changing the staging logic on the dv stat list.
<Slaintemaith>
Newer version shows the SRBs as a separate stage, and the older one just lumps them all into one.
<Slaintemaith>
So it looks like I'll have to wait for lamont to wake up. =)
<Slaintemaith>
I'll just shut up now.
<Bornholio>
lol, shuttle peg has a steep curve, i crash it half the time even with simple stuff
<Slaintemaith>
When you say 'steep curve' do you mean 'learning,' or literally, 'it flies a steep curve?' Because 50 degrees is pretty stee---nevermind.
<Slaintemaith>
Rocket science is an awkward place for some metaphors.
<Bornholio>
.smirk
<Slaintemaith>
So with the latest RSS/RO for 1.3.1, any ship that was patched for it will have to be....redone?
<Slaintemaith>
-ship, but you know. Part. Engine.
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<Bornholio>
lol ckopernicus Kopernicus 1.3.1-5 - "The last release literally broke everything - Edition"
<Slaintemaith>
Another curious thing: The "emergency pitch adjust" seems broken as well, since entering any non-zero number results in nothing occurring.
<Mike`>
i think in the old peg this only worked when you hit "disable peg guidance"? not sure though
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<Slaintemaith>
Oh. Mebbe. That'd make sense, of course.
<awang>
!tz
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
Does Qboid still track timezones?
<Slaintemaith>
I think I'll just go back to the 2.5x non-RSS kiddie pool.
<SRBuchanan>
Speaking of kiddie pools, I tried building a stock ascent vehicle in RSS during a break in the installation process yesterday.
<SRBuchanan>
Couldn't get it to work with any sensible mass fraction. I'd forgotten just how bad engine performance and tank mass were in stock.
<Bornholio>
its just all A50/NTO in service module tanks
<Probus>
I am trying to do a fresh install and my game keeps crashing while loading. It is on the Squad part turboFanEngine. What have I missed? I have updated AJE and Ven. This error seems really familiar.
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, why? once RSS, always RSS. :D
<Slaintemaith>
Well, I meant RO, actually. =)
<Mike`>
ah
<awang>
Probus: Got a stack trace in the logs?
<Slaintemaith>
and because I want certain things to work in an install, a shuttle being one of them--I tend to get fixated.
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<Mike`>
well, is that ROs fault though? right now it sounds like you have trouble with mechjebs ascent guidance?
<Mike`>
the only thing i'm annoyed with right now is slow performance, and i couldn't yet find out what is causing it, probably alot of mods together.
<Probus>
Yep awang. Let me see...
<awang>
Anyone here have any experience with TriggerAu's KSP Plugin Framework?
<SRBuchanan>
If you want playable RSS without RO I think most people use SMURFF.
<Slaintemaith>
Playable RSS without RO is my stock x2.5 sized RSS install.
<Slaintemaith>
Perfect for BDB crafts.
<Slaintemaith>
Mike`: Re slow performance: There's nothing for it, really. I know once I install x-many mods, I start getting uncontrollable stutters of about .75 seconds every 5 - 7 seconds. Which is mind-crippling.
<Slaintemaith>
And Memgraph only helps so much.
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, but that won't solve your PEG trouble, will it? so i'm somewhat confused. :)
<Slaintemaith>
Mike` Nope. I was merely sympathizing.
<awang>
Probus: Nothing sticks out to me, unfortunately
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, yeah, those aren't that bad, but my performance is too slow all the time, it's like slow motion until i'm in orbit.
<awang>
Stack trace wasn't that informative :(
<awang>
Perhaps someone more experienced can help?
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<Slaintemaith>
Mike` Oh? With the 2.5x RSS? Sure it does. I use GravityTurn and Bob's my uncle.
<awang>
Did you change anything recently?
<awang>
Slaintemaith: If performance is really bothering you, you can try profiling KSP
<Bornholio>
dangit people just fly to orbit :P
<awang>
Mike`: ^
<awang>
Unless you're on macOS, in which case good luck
<awang>
(I think)
<Mike`>
awang, already tried that, but might have another look at those instructions, also as it doesn't work for you, that doesn't make much hope. :D
<Slaintemaith>
awang I could try it if 1) I knew what it meant. 2) I knew how to in a functional manner. =)
<Mike`>
ah
<Mike`>
might be because of mac, okay
<awang>
Mike`: You're on mac, also?
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, well, a gravity turn is what you need with full scale aswell, after all? :D But seriously, classical mechjeb ascent should work for your craft aswell, although it's not good at hitting precise orbits/you need to watch it and use pitch adjustments
<awang>
Slaintemaith: Aren't familiar with the dev side of things?
<awang>
It's never too late to learn :P
<Mike`>
awang, no, no. Wasn't sure that being on mac caused your profiling trouble. :)
<awang>
Mike`: I sure hope it's just me on mac
<awang>
I can't even get Unity to boot on my computer
<Mike`>
awang, i already tried removing scatterer and rssve today which did help, but it was still almost solid yellow...so...weird. Might remove some other mods to test soon.
<awang>
Mike`: Try getting the profiler set up
<awang>
Performance issues tend to pop up in weird places
<awang>
Although apparently you can only profile things that have explicit calls to the profiler?
<awang>
idk, Unity is weird
<Probus>
Thanks for looking at it awang. I will have to uninstall until I find it.
<awang>
Probus: No problem. Sorry I couldn't help :(
<SRBuchanan>
I know that RemoteTech can be a source of stutters/freezes, especially when it's transmitting science.
<Bornholio>
[x]science is a big one if you haven't used the fix dll
<awang>
Wait, you need a Unity account for the editor?
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, it's dumb.
<SRBuchanan>
It's free, but still dumb.
<SRBuchanan>
Seems like everyone wants an account these days. I quit using Nvidia GeForce experience because of it.
<SRBuchanan>
In Unity's case it makes a bit more sense, since they require you to pay for it if you're developing commercially but are gracious enough to let us modders use it for free.
<awang>
Dangit
<awang>
Unity doesn't support case sensitive filesystems
<awang>
Why :(
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<Slaintemaith>
awang: The only thing I've ever found coding was was tedious.
<SRBuchanan>
I've never been a fan of case-sensitive stuff anyways. There's too much potential for confusion.
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<awang>
Slaintemaith: Fair enough, even though you're wrong :P
<awang>
SRBuchanan: Well, seems that companies *were* moving that way
<awang>
Until backwards compatibility smacked them in the face
<awang>
Or something
<SRBuchanan>
Eh, they're still trying.
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<SRBuchanan>
I've managed to thoroughly nuke all of Windows' attempts to spy on me or push a Microsoft account, at least.
<awang>
APFS was supposed to be case-sensitive by default, but apparently that got nuked relatively shortly before release
<awang>
Had to fix Steam manually, since apparently renaming files is too hard for Valve
<awang>
Besides that, haven't noticed any issues
<awang>
Windows 10, telemetry edition
<SRBuchanan>
Renaming files, counting to three... there's a lot of things Valve can't do.
<awang>
Oh, looks like iOS is case sensitive by default
<awang>
So means that everyone is going to be case sensitive eventually, given the sway Apple has
<SRBuchanan>
Eh.
<SRBuchanan>
They tried renaming everything to 'app' and that hasn't taken in developer circles at all.
<awang>
They basically killed Flash, though, didn't they?
<SRBuchanan>
It took with Windows on a superficial front-end level but nobody that actually works with the stuff uses that stupid nomenclature.
<SRBuchanan>
Flash needed to die regardless.
<awang>
Not arguing with you there
<SRBuchanan>
It's easy to push a change when everyone wants that change.
<awang>
I thought it was pretty controversial at the time
<awang>
Because Flash was relatively widely used still
<Bornholio>
adobe needs to die for decade long known defects and security flaws
<SRBuchanan>
We could stand to have a bit less Java in the world too, for that matter.
<awang>
SRBuchanan: Why? Genuinely curious
<awang>
I mean, Java plugins are one thing
<SRBuchanan>
Just a lot of bloat associated with it.
<awang>
Thought the desktop stuff was relatively ok
<SRBuchanan>
Also plugins.
<awang>
The JVM is great, though
<awang>
(or so I've heard)
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah plugins are a big part of the problem. The idea of a standardized virtual machine for standalone programs is fine.
<awang>
Hotspot apparently does insane things to get decent performance
<awang>
Looks like webassembly is going to kill the need for plugins, at least
<SRBuchanan>
Minecraft's still my go-to mindless casual game and I refuse to get a Microsoft account to play the windows-specific verion.
<SRBuchanan>
*version
<SRBuchanan>
So that's one use I have for Java.
<awang>
Oh, they require Microsoft accounts now?
<SRBuchanan>
For the Windows 10 edition, yeah.
<awang>
Man, I haven't opened Minecraft in ages...
<SRBuchanan>
At least that's what my OS tells me.
<SRBuchanan>
The traditional Java edition is still just its own Mojang account.
<SRBuchanan>
Though now that Microsoft owns them I'm not sure what the difference is...
<SRBuchanan>
Well, I guess that I can have a Mojang account without having to use it to log into my own personal computer.
<SRBuchanan>
Microsoft does seem to be losing sight of the fact that my personal computer is MY PERSONAL computer.
<SRBuchanan>
I paid for it, I built it, I paid the license on my OS so it could be MINE, not theirs. I'm not renting the bloody thing.
<Bornholio>
losing? that was never had
<awang>
SRBuchanan: Unfortunately the world seems to want to move towards ___-as-a-service
<awang>
Value-added (tm)
<Sarbian>
You can still log with a local account and link it to a MS account
<Sarbian>
(I do hate the MS store still)
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, I won't be doing that.
<SRBuchanan>
And the more things you get as a service, the less things you *own.* Ownership of property is a powerful thing to have in any capitalist economy and I feel like taking that away is fundamentally a power-grab.
<SRBuchanan>
Argh, keep forgetting that this isn't Discord and text doesn't have any special formatting.
<Bornholio>
that does sound like a problem
<Bornholio>
purge the discord from your mind young padawan
<SRBuchanan>
Well nobody seems to use TeamSpeak any more.
<Bornholio>
mumble mumble mumble
<SRBuchanan>
Shame really. The customization options were extensive, if difficult to get used to.
<SRBuchanan>
Mumble's a piece of trash.
<SRBuchanan>
Only thing it's good for is mass-chats of random people, like Spectre Fleets in EVE, etc.
<Bornholio>
mine has run for a stable decade, stable trash
<SRBuchanan>
If you want actual cohesion and organization it's terrible.
<SRBuchanan>
Yeah, it's stable. Stably mediocre.
<SRBuchanan>
It's free and it works. Beyond that it's not much.
<SRBuchanan>
I'm just glad nobody uses Skype any more.
<SRBuchanan>
Hmm... DeadlyReentry is giving me crashes on load. What version should I be using for 1.3.1 RP-1?
<SRBuchanan>
I don't use CKAN. Previous attempts have resulted in me spending more time fixing CKAN mis-installations than I would have spent just doing things manually to begin with.
<Bornholio>
thus the otherwise. personally i want as much as possible ckan'd
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<NathanKell>
o/
<awang>
Only on macOS could KSP take up >25GB of RAM, with 16GB RAM installed, and have memory pressure around 30%
<awang>
NathanKell: Are you familiar with TriggerAu's KSP Plugin Framework?
<NathanKell>
Nope
<awang>
:(
<NathanKell>
Sorry!
<awang>
You're fine
<awang>
Trying to get Unity profiling working again
<awang>
Unity actually "loads" now
<awang>
As in I can log in
<awang>
But it fails to load window layout
<awang>
Again
<awang>
And again
<awang>
And again
<awang>
And again
<awang>
And monodevelop segfaults
<Bornholio>
awang are you using RSSVE?
<awang>
Bornholio: Yep
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<Bornholio>
you have constant console/log spam
<Bornholio>
?
<awang>
Nope
<awang>
I think I'm on old versions of EVE/Scatterer though
<awang>
On the latest RSSVE thogh
<Bornholio>
this is def. RSSVE Targetbody naem:earth ...
<awang>
It's also nighttime, so not 100% sure everything is working
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<awang>
Mike`: As for performance, I get ~4 fps during a nighttime launch
<awang>
But GC intervals is around 4 minutes
<probus_>
OK... I give up
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<Probus>
I think I need to start over
<Bornholio>
with install?
<Probus>
Yep. Must have missed a step or something
<Bornholio>
whats is your kurrent problem?
<Probus>
Loads to the "turboFanEngine" then crashes.
<Bornholio>
hard to tell from last load message, lets peek at your log :)
<Qboid>
[#812] title: RP-1 todos for release | I'm holding off actually releasing the rest of the constellation since RP-1's changes are so far-reaching they may require changes in other mods. But AFAIK the remaining work is pretty much all RP-1, or at least closely tied to it.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/812
<lamont>
RP-0 Development branch == RP-1 correct?
<awang>
Is RF MFI not release-ready?
<awang>
Since that should take care of cryogenic tank clones, right?
<armed_troop>
also --force-metal results in no flicker and probably better performance
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<awang>
armed_troop: Pass that as a command line flag to KSP.app/Contents/MacOS/KSP?
<armed_troop>
Bornholio: Filter Extensions -- configs or no configs?
<NathanKell>
awang: it's not, because it's MLI only, not dewar
<NathanKell>
(and because I need to write analytic for it)
<awang>
NathanKell: Ah, fair enough
<NathanKell>
yeah, shame
<Bornholio>
armed_troop i have configs, right or wrong
<awang>
NathanKell: Might as well wait for now
<NathanKell>
but I just don't have the time I once did, and neither does SW :)
<awang>
1.4 is releasing in what, a month?
<awang>
Don't think people will mind that much :P
<NathanKell>
Nah, I want to get 1.3 stuff out finally
<NathanKell>
I mean, 1.2 took nearly until 1.3 :P
<NathanKell>
it's how it goes
<Bornholio>
day before exactly
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Maybe I should have KSP be a script that automatically adds the flag
<awang>
There's quite a few possible flags
<awang>
force-gfx-direct
<awang>
force-gfx-st
<awang>
force-gfx-mt
<awang>
force-mt
<awang>
s/mt/metal
<Qboid>
awang meant to say: force-metal
<awang>
force-glcore32
<awang>
etc.
<armed_troop>
force-glcore flickers, force-opengl doesn't (but is legacy), and force-metal doesn't
<armed_troop>
for me
<Bornholio>
one more launch till 4xcommnet contract payout, or death, can't afford to fail {glares at agathorn}
<NathanKell>
back later o/
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|AFK
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<awang>
armed_troop: Interestingly, passing -force-metal seems to cause my computer to not switch to dedicated graphics
<armed_troop>
awang: hmmmm, interesting
<armed_troop>
(my computer doesn't have dedicated graphics)
<armed_troop>
it seems like textures don't load for the world, with Metal, though :/
<awang>
Huh
<awang>
Curious to see what will break for me then
<SRBuchanan>
Happily my PC doesn't have any integrated graphics and is forced to use the GPU since there's literally no other options.
<Mike`>
awang, 4fps? what? oO and as i don't have an fps counter i measure mission time vs real time, and 1 second ingame takes roughly 1.5 seconds real time
<Bornholio>
on dead lr89 so far, can i make it
<Bornholio>
one
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<awang>
armed_troop: KSP crashes for me on integrated graphics, apparently o_O
<armed_troop>
awang: with force-metal or just in general?
<awang>
Mike`: Yeah, it's something around there
<armed_troop>
if you were to force it with iStat or gfxCardStatus it shouldn't crash...
<awang>
Mike`: I think my game runs roughly 5-10 times slower than real time
<awang>
armed_troop: With -force-metal
<awang>
I didn't intentionally force integrated graphics, it just doesn't cause the computer to switch
<armed_troop>
I see
<awang>
"failed assertion `MTLTextureDescriptor requests 3 mipmap levels, but the dimensions (2, 2, 1) can only support a maximum of 2 levels"
<Mike`>
awang, 5-10 times slower than real time? oO no wonder you're rather coding than gaming!? :S
<Mike`>
nathan shows us with his stream that it apparently can run decently quickly, maybe should ask him what kinda pc he has :s
<Bornholio>
yeah, to stable orbit with both boost stages remaining
<Bornholio>
awang love the stable fuel indicators btw
<awang>
Mike`: It also lets me tell myself that I can be productive, too, since once I launch I have nothing to do for the next 20 minutes :P
<awang>
Guess that's what I get for trying to install all the mods on an underpowered laptop GPU
<awang>
and/or CPU
<awang>
Bornholio: Glad to hear they're working!
<awang>
Mike`: MJ has been a lifesaver in that regard
<awang>
No more need to babysit a super slow launch
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<Mike`>
true
<Mike`>
but i couldn't deal with that, even with MJ
<Mike`>
i'd rather play other games/do something else/maybe even be productie aswell :D
<awang>
I need to update my MJ... Old version still has that weird behavior which tends to bring attitude away from prograde during insertion
<awang>
Mike`: You can play two games at once!
<awang>
Double the gaming fun!
<Mike`>
if your pc can't handle one game already...minesweeper or hearts? :s
<SRBuchanan>
Hmmm... Seems like MechJeb isn't abiding by my AoA limits very well.
<awang>
Or a second instance of KSP!
<awang>
So they'll run even slower!
<awang>
And now you have time for a third instance of KSP!
<awang>
Three times the rocket fun!
<Mike`>
nah, windows would've killed the first yb the time the 3rd started, if not the second aswell :S
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<Bornholio>
not unless -single-instance cls
<SRBuchanan>
Just buy a Ryzen Threadripper and get every instance to run on a different core.
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<Mike`>
windows kills KSP because lack of memory.
<Mike`>
has already killed a single ksp instance here....
<awang>
Didn't know Windows was that touchy about memory o_O
<SRBuchanan>
Memory and memory access are almost always the causes of crashes with KSP.
<SRBuchanan>
Hmm, now I'm getting the issue where PEG just quits if you jettison anything during or before the pitch program.
<Mike`>
SRBuchanan, peg14?
<Mike`>
SRBuchanan, maybe we should somehow collaborate with fixing stuff for sstu, btw, do you have your changes on github or something?
<SRBuchanan>
Nope.
<SRBuchanan>
I need to put together a pull request but I'm not sure how to work the ModuleManager changes. Preferably I'd like MM to make the patch for the one mis-reference within the SSTU files.
<Mike`>
anyway, i only saw that issue with old peg
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: does your shuttle PEGAS bork with SRBs?
<SRBuchanan>
Which release of MechJeb are you using? I've got 2.7.0.0 right now.
<Mike`>
SRBuchanan, you need to use lamonts development branches for the latest PEG
<lamont>
and yeah num_stages doesn’t exist any more, it just figures it out for you
<Mike`>
s/branches/releases/
<Qboid>
Mike` meant to say: SRBuchanan, you need to use lamonts development releases for the latest PEG
<lamont>
yeah don’t use my branch, use the release, i push all kinds of nonsense to my branch
<Mike`>
:)
<Mike`>
used it today with liquid boosters and it worked beautifully
<Mike`>
even long burning boosters, 2m+
<SRBuchanan>
Now I'm even more confused.
<Mike`>
why?
<SRBuchanan>
Are you saying I SHOULD be using Lamont's 14th release, or that I should NOT?
<Mike`>
you should use it
<SRBuchanan>
Okay.
<Mike`>
or at least try it. :)
<Mike`>
for me it works better. (it does have some weird debug lines on the screen though, you can ignore those :)
<lamont>
should
<lamont>
and yeah, gotta UX those away into some button someplace
<lamont>
just don’t start pulling down my branch via git and trying to make it yourself, you will have a bad time… use my releases (Shuttle PEG #14)
<Slaintemaith>
Liquid boosters might be fine--I'm actually trying to launch a shuttle. The hybrid Attitude control works beautifully, it's just putting the shuttle in a 45-50 degree attitude after SRB sep, then sitting there saying it's got stable PEG and guidance converged, even though it proceeds to a non-orbit of 1.4MM x -4.32MMish.
<Slaintemaith>
That's the latest 1.2.2 release, 12.
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: sorry all that above text is for you--I'm in and out making dinner. =)
<lamont>
ah, i didn’t realize anyone was still using 1.2.2
<Slaintemaith>
Yes. I'm sadly out-of-date.
<Slaintemaith>
It's the latest release, after all, so things should still work, no?
<SRBuchanan>
I've worked out about the least practical possible vehicle to test MechJeb.
<lamont>
no its behind
<Slaintemaith>
That's a Space Shuttle. Always.
<SRBuchanan>
No, this is even worse economically.
<SRBuchanan>
Though probably safer.
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<SRBuchanan>
First stage has seven RL10A-5's.
<duckie>
man, i am so tired of this runway
<Slaintemaith>
lamont: I'm also afraid the configs for Pak's shuttle won't work with the new version...
<Bornholio>
taxi left
<Slaintemaith>
Which would put me many many steps behind.
<SRBuchanan>
So that's probably about a hundred million dollars worth of engines. The payload is under 300 Kg.
<Bornholio>
Thanks JPLRepo for the loading screens back
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, i use liquid boosters because i dont have solids researched yet, for one thing. But i guess in theory solids should work just as well.
<duckie>
henlo NathanKell
<awang>
\o NathanKell
<NathanKell>
Mike` kind of a beast. :] (home workstation, 1080, etc)
<Mike`>
o/
<SRBuchanan>
1.3.1 RO is technically still 'in development' but it's pretty useable at this point.
<Slaintemaith>
Mike`: Thanks. I think (hope) it's a versioning issue?
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<NathanKell>
Trying to release today actually, unless anyone has any showstoppers
<SRBuchanan>
Hey Nathan!
<Mike`>
well, no idea, your rocket/the shuttle might be particularly hard to fly. :) I just use "normal" rockets.
<SRBuchanan>
I fixed the SSTU MUS for RO. How do I get that added for everyone?
<awang>
SRBuchanan: Submit a PR!
<SRBuchanan>
I meant like, how/.
<SRBuchanan>
I've never done this before.
<awang>
I should poke LGG to get those PRs merged...
<awang>
SRBuchanan: You know how to use git?
<SRBuchanan>
I know how to download stuff from git.
<awang>
Alternatively, copy/paste your changes into the web editor
<SRBuchanan>
That's about the extent of my knowledge.
<Mike`>
NathanKell, hey. Well, i do have 4x4ghz aswell and a 1060.... oh well, gotta investigate a little further. :)
* awang
🔪 programs that don't know how to deal with case-sensitive filesystems
<Mike`>
NathanKell, well, to be honest i'd like it if the rd108 fix was merged before release, seeing as that is probably a somehwat popular and early engine?
<awang>
SRBuchanan: Do you want to learn how to do a PR the git way, or use the web editor?
<NathanKell>
Mike`: Rest assured I will chug badly when launching something with multiple engines. Thus far it's just been Thors.
<awang>
Oh yeah, the RD-108 thing
<lamont>
🔪 case-sensitive filesystems
<egg>
NathanKell: how goes the launch
<egg>
or release
<egg>
stabbing of the release
<awang>
lamont: Why not case-sensitive filesystems? :(
<Slaintemaith>
Whee! The AJE startup hang!
<Mike`>
NathanKell, (and i did a PR for a bluedog atlas update, as that is craft-breaking, it would probably nice to also include it, it's no biggie either :)
<Slaintemaith>
Back to trying 1.1.1
<Slaintemaith>
1.2.2
<NathanKell>
Ah I haven't checked RO pulls in a bit
<NathanKell>
I need to do a merge pass for sure
<SRBuchanan>
Before I get into any of that I need to learn if/how to get MM or the RO configs within RO itself to correct a misreference within the actual SSTU release.
<SRBuchanan>
Since that's vital to getting the patch to work.
<lamont>
case matters and trying to rename files to lower/upper case in git
<awang>
NathanKell: Are RCS engines not completely set up for engineType-style things yet?
<awang>
lamont: I thought the problem was git on case-insensitive filesystems?
<awang>
NathanKell: Looks like I disabled ullage for some RCS engines, but there wasn't a common place for that
<NathanKell>
awang: Hmm. They sort of are?
<awang>
At least I didn't find one at the time
<NathanKell>
ModuleRCS doesn't support ullage anyway
<NathanKell>
and doesn't care about pressurization either
<awang>
Ah
<NathanKell>
never got around to writing a ModuleRCSRF
<lamont>
wait wut, i totally was reading that in my head as case-INsensitive
<lamont>
programs that can’t deal with case-sensitive filesystems… ehm… wow, yeah… that is so wrong i couldn’t compute…
<awang>
NathanKell: ullage should be settable in Engine_Configs/RCS_Config.cfg, though, right?
<NathanKell>
Won't do anything
<awang>
lamont: Need more coffee? :P
<NathanKell>
all MEC does is pass stuff on to the actual engine module
<awang>
NathanKell: wait wut
<lamont>
clearly
<NathanKell>
if the actual engine module doesn't support something, it's just discarded confignode data
<ProjectThoth>
Has anyone tried to do the Kistler K-1 in RO? Drag looks like a nightmare.
<awang>
Oh
<NathanKell>
literally all MEC does is say "hey, engine module, load this config node"
<NathanKell>
Well, it does some preprocessing to it
<awang>
Hmmm
<NathanKell>
but in the end...it just passes a confignode over
<NathanKell>
you could put foo = bar in the CONFIG
<awang>
Well, there *is* a ModuleEngines config for this engine
<awang>
I think
<NathanKell>
and sure neough, the engine module would see a foo = bar in its confignode, and if there were a KSPField foo, it would be set to bar
<NathanKell>
but if not, it'd be exactly the same as writing foo = bar in the MODULE itself
<NathanKell>
(i.e. nothing)
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
I see
<awang>
Less magic than I had hoped :(
<NathanKell>
ullage, ignitions, pfed checks, etc--all that does stuff because I made a new version of ModuleEnginesFX called ModuleEnginesRF that checks for data and uses it
<NathanKell>
yeah you could use ModuleEngineConfigs on, say, ModuleAnimateGeneric if you really wanted to :D
<NathanKell>
so you could swap animation parameters
<NathanKell>
it's just kinda tailored for engines
<awang>
I see
<NathanKell>
One of my long term plans for KSP was to unify ModuleEngines and ModuleRCS since they share so much code
<NathanKell>
never got to it, alas
<awang>
It's never too late to start!
<awang>
How many people here use KRASH?
<NathanKell>
I mean, I feel like 1.4 is probably locked by now :P
<awang>
Well, I hope so
<NathanKell>
for Jamie's and Dave's sake :P
<awang>
Who?
<NathanKell>
JPLRepo and TriggerAu
<Starwaster>
so what's the best way to record something with sound in KSP?
<saabstory88>
NathanKell: Is there an event which asks RF for new tank sizes based on volume changes?
<NathanKell>
OBS?
<Starwaster>
no scratch that, what's the easiest way
<Mike`>
awang, thanks. maybe you should (try to) publish that somehow? i can only think that it would be useful for many people. no idea why the decoupler isn't cylindrical by default or configurable like tanks.
<Slaintemaith>
Sorry. If you haven't figured it out by now: I'm an idiot.
<Bornholio>
seems about 800 low
<lamont>
yeah, that’s with linear gravity, small angle approximation, etc so PEGs 8000 dV plan on the pad is approximate nonsense unfortunately
<Slaintemaith>
=)
<lamont>
yeah i’m unclear what is going on with the upper stage there and why the TWR is so low
<NathanKell>
Also the Pe should be ~120 IIRC, no? Not 170?
<Slaintemaith>
Okay. So I need to look at the design of the ship, then. Fair enough.
<Slaintemaith>
Probably.
<Bornholio>
thats the OMS isn't it?
<Bornholio>
.09 for OMS might be right
<NathanKell>
So 0.09 sounds right
<NathanKell>
ninja'd
<NathanKell>
835m/s is actually rather more OMS dV than I'd expect. But this is a dry shuttle
<Slaintemaith>
I was going to say--Shuttle PEGAS doesn't quite put it in orbit. The OMS finished it off.
<NathanKell>
What's off is that you should be getting longer than 1m30s on the solids, I think
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<Bornholio>
maybe your exchange on the SRB's is putting them too low in total fuel or ISP
<NathanKell>
yeah, should be ~2m
<Slaintemaith>
Ugh. The solids. Don't talk to me about the solids.
<lamont>
yeah it may be a bit difficult to perfectly replicate the shuttle
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<Slaintemaith>
I had to use the ones from Real Scale Boosters because the ones that came with Pak's lasted for like 7 minutes...but anaemically.
<blowfish>
discrepancy on burn time might be due to thrust curve
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<lamont>
i bet you need to nail your pitch program pretty closely as well
<Bornholio>
burn time should be 2:07 with 12MN
<lamont>
because if you burn too much there due to being suboptimal then you leave more for the tiny OMS engines to do
<Slaintemaith>
Right.
<Slaintemaith>
But. 50 degrees and hold?
<Slaintemaith>
Forever?
<lamont>
that’s probably the OMS engines complaining that they aren’t ever gonna make it
<Slaintemaith>
This should be getting -close- to orbit, no?
<Slaintemaith>
Nope. That's right after SRB sep.
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<lamont>
so the shuttle did an OMS-1 burn to pull the apoapsis up and then coasted and did the OMS-2 burn to circularize
<NathanKell>
Only if it couldn't make the Ap on mains alone, right?
<Slaintemaith>
Early on, yes. Later shuttles and upgrades they just did an OMS1, I believe.
<NathanKell>
Sometimes it could make it to, say, 120x500 ok IIRC
<NathanKell>
yeah
<lamont>
oh “ except in the case of a direct insertion, when only one OMS thrusting period is required to circularize the orbit. “
<Slaintemaith>
120km = 50 degrees and hold. =(
<NathanKell>
brb
NathanKell is now known as NathanKell|BRB
<Slaintemaith>
And sorry. I'm not complaining--although I've played with many of these numbers of the course of, uh, a while.
<Slaintemaith>
I have a feeling that even if I go in and give it the fuel in the SRBs to give another 30 seconds or so (although I don't know how I'd do that) it'd still sep, pitch to 50 and hold.
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<Slaintemaith>
Welcome back.
<Bornholio>
is that SRB one with a Segment Selector?
<lamont>
so the length of that OMS burn that PEG is predicting is fairly insanely long…
<lamont>
1347 seconds, and it probably climbs up
<lamont>
that is 22 mins
<Slaintemaith>
It isn't.
<Slaintemaith>
sorry: Bornholio: it isn't.
<Slaintemaith>
Bornholio: It's the "Real Scale Boosters" variant.
<Slaintemaith>
I'
<Slaintemaith>
m going to try to mess with the SRB fuel now and make it burn longer.
<Slaintemaith>
I have a feeling I'm not taking something into account, like fuel mass, and bad things are going to happen.
<Slaintemaith>
Because I'm an idiot.
<Slaintemaith>
*Nods Sagely*
<lamont>
i can’t find any good references on how long the OMS-1 burn was supposed to be
<Probus>
I have the right version of Kopernicus but am getting a lot of errors in the log, plus a black startup screen. Any guesses as to what that may be?
<Bornholio>
-3, -4 or -5 kopernicus?
<Probus>
-5
<Bornholio>
cause -4 is broke
<lamont>
“Orbital insertion burns and deorbit burns each typically require a ve locity change of about 100–500 ft/sec.”
<lamont>
🔪 ft/sec
<Bornholio>
so 30-150m/s dV from OMS
<lamont>
so PEG is predicting requiring 1641 m/s from OMS
<Mike`>
so his 8700m/s from the lower stages are a little on the low side it seems, although it shouldn't need another 1600 m/s?
<Slaintemaith>
And where should I get that?
<Slaintemaith>
BTW, adding fuel to the SRB did bupkis, as predicted, because I don't know what I'm doing.
<lamont>
yeah i suspect something about the initial pitch over is a bit suboptimal as well
<Bornholio>
can you put up VAB stats on the SRB
<lamont>
heh if its not obvious you’re doing something very, very advanced
<Slaintemaith>
Honestly, I'm getting back to the 'eff it' point.
<Slaintemaith>
Which would be easier for everyone all around.
<lamont>
can i interest you in a saturn V or Ib? or R-7? or Titan missile?
<Bornholio>
Atlas
<Slaintemaith>
Heh.
<Slaintemaith>
There we go. RSS/RO deleted.
<lamont>
well you don’t need to do that, its just that the shuttle itself is particularly hard
<Slaintemaith>
*Grins* GravityTurn handles it -great- in non-RSS. =P
<lamont>
heh i’m sure it does...
<Slaintemaith>
Errr Non-RO.
<Mike`>
Slaintemaith, i just wanted to suggest flying it manually and see how that goes ;)
<Slaintemaith>
Mike` Eeesh. I hate flying anything manually in Kerbal. Any version.
<Mike`>
i kinda now do aswell since i use RO and mechjeb.
<Bornholio>
does SmartASS count as manually
<lamont>
its possible it needs to pitch over more aggresively and wind up in a zero AoA gravity turn that is more flat in order to not rack up the gravity losses and then not need as much OMS burn at the end.
<Mike`>
probably as semi-automatic :)
<Slaintemaith>
Beyond that, if we're going for a modicum of realism, we all know how every manned spaceflight was manually controlled to orb--oh. Wait. No. None of them ever were.
<lamont>
pilots sat there pressing WASD rapidly in order to do orbital injection, seat of the pants…
<Mike`>
sure, but with mnaual/classical ascent guidance you might be able to better see if that rocket can actually make orbit or not.
<Slaintemaith>
I remember it well.
<Mike`>
:)
<Slaintemaith>
Seriously: I just rm'd my RO install. Maybe I'll just wait for the next version.
<SRBuchanan>
What's with the dev spreadsheet link for Kerbal Renamer? It's linking to a pull request.
<Mike`>
on the other hand, you probably shouldn't really start with such a hard craft as the shuttle when you want to start with RO. But well, yea, your choice. :)
<lamont>
RSB Atlas V HLVs are pretty cool… just sayin...
<SRBuchanan>
Delta III's a pretty good starter craft.
<SRBuchanan>
Simple fuels, not a lot of special handling.
<Slaintemaith>
Oh. I've played with RO.
<Slaintemaith>
I'll put it this way: Have any of -you- gotten a shuttle working?
<Slaintemaith>
You: The gods and creators of RO?
<Bornholio>
SRBuchanan updated
<Mike`>
well, i don't like planes/shuttles very much so i never tried and probably won't. and IRL it rather looks like shuttles are dead aswell. :S
<lamont>
i’ve never tried
<SRBuchanan>
Awesome, thanks.
<awang>
Mike`: I figured that the pill shape was chosen on purpose, so a shape change wouldn't match the intention. idk about the lack of configurability, either
<Slaintemaith>
Well. On paper, the Shuttle was brilliant.
<Slaintemaith>
The cost was well, blowups, and refurbishing parts.
<Slaintemaith>
For kerbal, that's a non-issue.
<Slaintemaith>
Well, okay, blowups are.
<Slaintemaith>
But refurb? Not so much.
<Slaintemaith>
Great for satellite launch missions.
<Mike`>
awang, i guess so. BUt...but...that just doesn't look right, does it? might at least offer the cylindrical one in an optional folder. :D
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<lamont>
yeah you’ve exposed the fact that i’ve never bothered to try to fly a shuttle in KSP, like ever…
<Mike`>
Maybe we can integrate that part in RO or something, dunno.
NathanKell|BRB is now known as NathanKell
<Slaintemaith>
*Laughs*
<lamont>
i’ve designed some crazy SSTOs, but not the shuttle...