ferram4 changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | Maximal & soundnfury's RP-1 Race Into Space Signup: http://bit.ly/2DEVm2i [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator"
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<soundnfury>
my stupid lunar mission is getting closer!
<soundnfury>
just launched my first Delta Taxi and docked it to my space station
<ProjectThoth>
Delta Taxi?
<soundnfury>
Single-seat tin-foil cabin on top of an AJ10-138 stage. ~3600m/s.
<ProjectThoth>
I finally finished my (stock) Duna expedition that's been on hiatus since New Year's.
<soundnfury>
next launch will be a Napier (2-seat spaceplane), one of the crew will go across to the taxi and test-fly it for a bit in LEO, before getting back into the Napier and coming home.
<soundnfury>
Then, with all components (except the EDS) tested out, next up will be the actual lunar fly-by mission
<soundnfury>
also, if this works, the next step will be to combine this with my "storable propellant tankers in LLO" architecture (already used for several lunar-sample-return probes)
<soundnfury>
for crewed lunar orbit and, if I'm _really_ patient, maybe even a landing.
<soundnfury>
just to prove that dammit, you *can* do Apollo without capsules ;)
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: I'm interested to see your landing plans.
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: I haven't drawn a CONOPS diagram for the landing plan, if that's what you mean
<soundnfury>
but it would basically be an Apollo-style two-stage lander, thrown to TLI probably part-fuelled, topped up from a tanker in LLO.
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Interesting!
<ProjectThoth>
How do you lob all that prop up to LLO to begin with?
<soundnfury>
oh, just lots of (roughly) Atlas-Centaurs with mini-Deltas on top
<soundnfury>
or, if I want to throw a bigger chunk at a time, I use my "Euler": 4xH-1-SaturnIB, 1xJ-2-200klbf, 1xRL10A-3-3, and put a bigger Delta on top
<ProjectThoth>
Delta's the upper stage, I'm guessing, nothing to do with the complete vehicle?
<soundnfury>
(that's about 300t GLOM, which is basically the biggest thing I've launched this career)
<soundnfury>
yeah. I'm just using it to mean "stage using mid-to-late AJ10" here
<soundnfury>
nomenclature for the "Delta" _vehicle_ is crazy. It's Thor-Delta, then it's just Delta, then it's not using a Thor first stage any more, then it's not even using an AJ10 any more (DCSS).
<soundnfury>
Almost as crazy as "Atlas" -_-
<soundnfury>
(dammit they shouldn't be _allowed_ to call it Atlas if it doesn't use stage-and-a-half *OR* balloon tanks)
<Bornholio>
or US engines
<ProjectThoth>
Rocket family of Theseus?
<soundnfury>
that too (to both of you)
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: or Trigger's Boom?
<soundnfury>
anyway, time I was in bed. nn all
<Rokker>
Bornholio: flyoverrrrr
<Bornholio>
yes you did, watched it twice
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<Rokker>
Bornholio: they flew over 3 times. shedding planes each time
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<wb99999999>
ah nuclear stage is so, so, so bulky...
<wb99999999>
I hope there's more methane options...
<Starwaster>
goddamn I keep forgetting how much I hate core heat
<ProjectThoth>
My greatest accomplishment in stock, thus far, is launching a lawn chair into orbit on solids.
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<Starwaster>
ok is it or is it not possible to have converters / collectors produce arbitrary amounts of heat or is it just about core heat and setting arbitrary temperature goals?
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<taniwha>
Starwaster: it's quite possible
<taniwha>
Starwaster: however, do note that resources consumed by the converter will cool your converter
<Starwaster>
taniwha yeah I think I found what I was looking for (TemperatureModifier)
<Starwaster>
rokker yeah you know what I see when I look at that? I see a guy getting killed in the belly turret by the undead gunner like he's trapped in some kind of unholy supernatural washing machine
<Rokker>
Starwaster: you know what I see
<Rokker>
one of the most famous planes in the world
<taniwha>
Starwaster: ah, sorry
<Rokker>
Starwaster: I see a plane that completed 25 bombing missions over germany
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<Starwaster>
RealISRU is a mess isn't it ...
<Rokker>
Starwaster: *lookatit*
<soundnfury>
25? I'm pretty sure some *Stirlings* managed more than that :P
<Starwaster>
rokker I am looking at it, it's a mess
<Rokker>
soundnfury: there are b-17s that did more too
<Rokker>
soundnfury: but this was the "first" one
<Rokker>
second technically
<Starwaster>
!seen Stratochief66
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I haven't seen the user Stratochief66 yet.
<Starwaster>
!seen Stratochief
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I last saw stratochief on [16.05.2018 21:34:15] in #SpaceX saying: "ProjectThoth: you're in colllege, you're supposed to be tripping on LSD"
<soundnfury>
Rokker: I know, I'm just yanking your chain :P
<soundnfury>
just looked it up: the record-holding Stirling was N3721, which flew 61 sorties.
<Rokker>
soundnfury: and those were all bombing sorties?
<soundnfury>
yup, I believe so
<Rokker>
bull
<Rokker>
soundnfury: also. it's a lot easier to survive when the enemy cant see anything
<soundnfury>
source: The Stirling Bomber, Michael J. F. Bowyer, appendix 5.
<soundnfury>
Rokker: hey, we tried to tell you guys that day bombing was suicide. But you wouldn't listen, oh nooo
<Rokker>
soundnfury: well we figured bombs were more effective when they actually hit the target
<Starwaster>
bornholio so, interesting thing about the Carnot refrigeration cycle equations... if the hot temperature is less than double the cold temperature it returns efficiencies of greater than 1.... wtf
<Rokker>
Bornholio: get online
<Starwaster>
and if it's less than the cold temperature (which can happen, because, KSP) then I get negative numbers.... I don't know how to deal with that
<Starwaster>
I mean I guess at that point it's just not a refrigerator anymore; it's just moving heat from hot to cold
<Rokker>
Bornholio: plz I need to share awesomeness with u
<schnobs`>
Starwaster: not sure if i understand the problem. You try to dump a few W/s onto the heatsink, if it's too cold to radiate, it should just heat up real quick.
<Starwaster>
schnobs the radiators (parts and code) aren't the problem; I'm trying to get the ISRU converters to behave realistically too and core heat doesn't really behave realistically to begin with so it's a bit challenging
<schnobs`>
If need be, let go of the formula at low temperatures and fake it. I mean, if the situation ever arises, KSP is being silly -- I don't see it as your responsibilty to fix it, then.
<Starwaster>
I don't know what that means
<schnobs`>
As i understand it, your formula delivers non-credible results if and when the heatsink temperature gets really low (relative to desired temp in tank).
<schnobs`>
Do I get that right so far?
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<Starwaster>
It's the RealISRU liquefaction array (module ModuleResourceConverter) so if the part does get colder than the product resource's assumed desired temperature, you're saying it should stop producing?
<schnobs`>
Not quite.
<Starwaster>
ok because that's the situation
<Starwaster>
I'm trying to put together a ThermalEfficiency curve and a TemperatureModifier curve
<schnobs`>
I say if a) the formula delivers unbelievable results (like efficiency >1) in some special cases, then don't use the formula in these cases.
<Starwaster>
one obviously affecting production efficiency and the other heat production from the heat removed from the product
<Starwaster>
ok so what DOES go into the curve for those temperatures?
<Starwaster>
something has to happen there
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<Starwaster>
either it stops producing at all (efficiency = 0) or some other number HAS to go there
<Starwaster>
there is no third option
<schnobs`>
Just make it take heat out of the surrounding medium at (say) a fixed rate or according to another formula, until the part is again hot enough to work as it should.
<Starwaster>
I'm not making a new plugin, this is a stock part with stock behavior. I don't geto tell it to do that
<schnobs`>
Oh... well, that's a problem, then.
<Starwaster>
look athe stock converters that have ThermalEfficiency curves. That's what I have to work with
<Starwaster>
I don't get to do this other stuff you're talking about
<Starwaster>
not unless I extend the class and make yet ANOTHER plugin to have to maintain
<Starwaster>
and to throw into the mix with all the other proprietary bullshit that's flooding the modding community
<Starwaster>
sorry about that last but I'm at a point right now where it's time to work WITH stock code instead of fighting it
<Starwaster>
btw anyone want to take bets on if SSTU lasts the year?
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<Bornholio>
rokker yes
<Bornholio>
starwaster yes refrig cycles can go >1
<Starwaster>
what happens if they go to less than 0?
<Bornholio>
also if eff<0 or close to zero turn off
<Bornholio>
peltier do that and go into thermal runaway
<Bornholio>
anytime you can't reject the heat fast enough and your close to critical temps
<Starwaster>
but this is the exact opposite
<Starwaster>
this can only happen if the 'hot' temperature (the radiator or heat sink) is colder than the temperature you're cooling down to
<Bornholio>
losses in compression usually keep that from happening in reality
<Bornholio>
plus then your working fluid is in the wrong regime at orifices
<Rokker>
Bornholio: can't talk. inside b-17
<Rokker>
Bornholio: got pics of SAM 29000 and Yankee Lady both in flight
<Rokker>
together
<Bornholio>
and cool, but pics are to be shared
<Bornholio>
starwaster not sure how to deal with stock, except to force off at some point
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I'm still collecting pics
<Rokker>
Bornholio: hehehe Monica is out in front of the restoration hangar
<Starwaster>
bornholio have you done ModuleResourceConverter configs? Do you know what he difference (if any) is between REQUIRED_RESOURCE and INPUT_RESOURCE?
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<Starwaster>
this is amazing there's something like five different classes involved here... some are just extensions like ModuleResourceConverter extends BaseConverter... but then it's referencing ConversionRecipe that holds the inputs, outputs and requirements (yes it is a third list) then the actual 'recipe' is handled by ResourceConverter.ProcessRecipe...
<Starwaster>
jumping all over the place here back and forth to consult bits of code
<Rokker>
Bornholio: jesus. the B-52 must have been like a god damned mansion compared to the B-52