<FLHerne>
it's a KSP thing, roughly no-one actually says the name :p
<darsie>
Ok, but it's still nice to know ;).
<darsie>
Do you say KSP when you actually say it?
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<Althego>
there are air liquification plants which make liquid nitrogen and oxygen mostly, but in smaller quantities stuff like argon
<FLHerne>
Yes
<FLHerne>
unless it's to someone who doesn't know what it is at all
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<darsie>
And neon. There was a neon shortage due to the Ukraine war as there's a big air liquefication plant there. The neon is used for semiconductor lithography lasers.
<FLHerne>
which in hindsight probably applies to Team Fortress 2 there, but I kind of assumed everyone on The Internet had heard of TF2 by now simply because of the memes :p
<FLHerne>
[me included, I played it once for about 10 minutes just to see what it's like]
<Althego>
it is worse, as far as i know it is also a side effect of steel plants, just normally it is not captured
<darsie>
Yeah, steel plants use oxygen to burn excess carbon in pig iron.
<Althego>
but how does that result in neon? i cant imagin
<Althego>
e
<Eddi|zuHause>
so you're getting hot nitrogen... were would that be useful?
<darsie>
There's neon in air.
<darsie>
hot nitrogen?
<Eddi|zuHause>
if you burn the oxygen, the nitrogen remains
<darsie>
no, steel plants use pure oxygen.
<Eddi|zuHause>
then where would the neon come from?
<darsie>
using air is outdated.
<darsie>
air
<Eddi|zuHause>
you're contradicting yourself...
<darsie>
Ok, supernovae.
<Eddi|zuHause>
there's neon in air. but they don't use air.
<Eddi|zuHause>
they use pure oxygen. but there's no neon in pure oxygen.
<darsie>
Air gets liquified and distilled, to separate O2 from N2. I guess neon doesn't liquefy.
<Eddi|zuHause>
these things work by separating the temperatures at which gases liquify
<Eddi|zuHause>
at one temperature you're getting pure nitrogen, at one temperature you're getting pure oxygen, etc.
<Eddi|zuHause>
back when i learned about it, they only mentioned argon, not neon...
<packbart>
ah, so it's rather that neon production sites are co-located with steel plants because they need lots of oxygen
<Eddi|zuHause>
the smaller the gas molecules (or atoms, with noble gases) the harder it gets to liquify them
<darsie>
There may be other ways to separate them, like diffusion, centrifugation, adsorption.
<packbart>
otherwise, I only found rather vague allusions like stock-market advise. "neon gas is also a byproduct of steel production, and China has a vibrant steel-making industry right now. It’s possible that Chinese producers could step up neon production this year"
<Eddi|zuHause>
helium, for example, gets extracted from rocks. not from liquified air
<darsie>
But we can liquefy helium, so maybe they just liquefy Ar and Ne and distill them. He would remain gaseous, then.
<Althego>
that is a side product of radioactive decay
<darsie>
So is radon.
<darsie>
I have radon :).
<Eddi|zuHause>
why does that sound like a "we have radon at home" meme? :p
<Althego>
as the total blender ad i can say it too: dont breath it
<Mat2ch>
darsie: I say K-S-P or Kerbal Space Program. And I hate it when people just say "Oh, I played Kerbal"
<Mat2ch>
Kerbal WHAT
<Eddi|zuHause>
Kerbal Dating Sim
<Althego>
kerbal signap processing :)
<Althego>
*signal
<Mat2ch>
Kerbal Dating Sim sounds... weird
<Eddi|zuHause>
... it was officially announced... :p
<Mat2ch>
!mission You try to implement a Dating Sim in kOS.
<LunchBot>
No mission found matching "You try to implement a Dating Sim in kOS.".
<Althego>
not really. if there is monster prom
<Mat2ch>
!mission add You try to implement a Dating Sim in kOS.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: You try to implement a Dating Sim in kOS.
<packbart>
KSP is universally known as "Kerbal". even long-time players use it
<packbart>
and now there's Kerbal 2
<Mat2ch>
No, they are wrong, it's Kerbal Space Program or KSP ;)
<Eddi|zuHause>
i don't think i've ever heard anyone saying "kerbal"
<Eddi|zuHause>
somehow every time i try to fix my plane, it gets worse
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i don't know what i'm doing wrong
<packbart>
show a picture (that might work better on the forums). or scrap the design and begin from scratch :)
<packbart>
or just add "landing boosters"
<Eddi|zuHause>
i didn't even get to the "landing" part
<Eddi|zuHause>
it just tumbles over uncontrollably after a few minutes of flight
<packbart>
rolling or flipping?
<FLHerne>
that sounds like CoG shifting backward as the fuel tanks empty
<packbart>
not enough elevator lift, maybe
<packbart>
hm. is "elevator" the right word? looks shifty
<packbart>
anyway
<FLHerne>
when you're checking centre of mass vs centre of lift, do it with tanks both full and empty (and ideally in the middle)
<FLHerne>
it tends to shift backward because the engines are heavy and at the back
<Eddi|zuHause>
yeah, i move the wings a bit backwards, maybe that helps
<FLHerne>
centre of mass has to be a bit in front of centre of lift in all fuel states, otherwise it goes uncontrollably flippy
<FLHerne>
.outcome add You are told the solution, but refuse to accept it, instead stubbornly trying all sorts of other stupid ideas.
<LunchBot>
Added outcome: You are told the solution, but refuse to accept it, instead stubbornly trying all sorts of other stupid ideas.
<XXCoder>
lol
<XXCoder>
;mission
<LunchBot>
You explore the latest fashions in designer genes. Your boosters overheat due to exploding.
<XXCoder>
doh! too distracted to design properly
<packbart>
that's what happens when you swap Gene Kerman from Mission Control with an unlicensed designer Gene
<XXCoder>
thats right.
<Althego>
remember how skylon solved the same problem. moved the engines to the wingtips
<packbart>
well, one of the "all sorts of other stupid ideas" I thought of was using detachable engines. put parachutes on each one and stick them on decouplers, then drop them before the CoM creeps back too far
<LunchBot>
You spend hours trying to think of a single KSP feat that hasn't already been done. Even the Kraken is on fire.
<Althego>
could have gone better. must have been thinking really hard
<Eddi|zuHause>
!mission
<LunchBot>
Your instruments blow up on the pad. Grung-obsessed Kerbals sweep the area, leaving only destruction in their wake.
<Eddi|zuHause>
!outcome add yOU ENABLED FINE CONTROL:
<LunchBot>
Added outcome: yOU ENABLED FINE CONTROL:
<Althego>
hehehe
<Mat2ch>
Eddi|zuHause: I hate it. Thanks
<Mat2ch>
:D
<packbart>
"Grung ... poisonous frog-like amphibious humanoids that lived in swamp or marsh[2] forests" - I see
<packbart>
or maybe the architect? some of these missions need tooltip texts ;)
<darsie>
Eddi|zuHause: You didn't comment on my ant rocket.
<Eddi|zuHause>
i've seen it.
<Eddi|zuHause>
my ant is in orbit.
<Eddi|zuHause>
and i got a mun encounter which gives me an escape trajectory for testing the part
<darsie>
ok
<darsie>
The ant part?
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes
<darsie>
Escape from the Mun?
<Eddi|zuHause>
no, escape from kerbin
<darsie>
The Mun helps a bit, but is usually not worth the hassle.
<Eddi|zuHause>
maybe, but i also have a mission to fly by the mun
<Eddi|zuHause>
also, it's not that hard
<Eddi|zuHause>
but now i'm trying to do these plane missions before the mun encounter
<Eddi|zuHause>
and i'm fiddling with this plane autopilot, which has a tendency to overcorrect
<packbart>
Parallel missions are the path to madness!
<Althego>
yes
<Althego>
but that is how you do it for efficiency
<Althego>
when i have several returning missions and need to be in focus for capture
<Althego>
it gets a bit hairy
<Eddi|zuHause>
problem with plane missions is you can't interrupt them
<Althego>
because obviously between long breaks everything needs to happen at once
<packbart>
but you rarely see all the planets before starting a new game ;)
<Eddi|zuHause>
maybe that's why i've never been to another planet :p
<Althego>
at least try to go to duna
<Althego>
it is a totally differentexperience
<darsie>
Duna is aerobraking heaven.
<darsie>
Unlike Kerbin, Eve, Earth or Mars.
<darsie>
.outcome You aerobreak at Eve.
<LunchBot>
No outcome found matching "You aerobreak at Eve.".
<darsie>
.outcome add You aerobreak at Eve.
<LunchBot>
Added outcome: You aerobreak at Eve.
<Eddi|zuHause>
shouldn't that be a mission? :p
<darsie>
no
<darsie>
Read carefully ;)
<Eddi|zuHause>
well...
<Althego>
aerobake or aerobreak? :)
<Althego>
yes on eve you can easily explode
<packbart>
!mission add All your maneuver alarms go off at the same time. Choose wisely.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: All your maneuver alarms go off at the same time. Choose wisely.
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<packbart>
!mission add You fumble for the snooze button on the maneuver alarm clock.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: You fumble for the snooze button on the maneuver alarm clock.
<packbart>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You invent and deploy a virally-distributed antihypoxiant that will make Kerbals almost impossible to kill. The energy release catalyzes a vacuum metastability event.
<packbart>
so, uh, "impossible to kill" because there's nobody around to kill them?
<Eddi|zuHause>
it's probably fine... i got 15 minutes to my target on the plane mission, and 1:22h on the alarm clock for mun encounter
<Eddi|zuHause>
and then i figure out how to land :p
<Althego>
the irony. by making them unkillable you destroyed the univers
<Althego>
e
<Althego>
sometimes i am afraid of the false vacuum decay. but it would destroy all matter as we know it with the speed of light, so we wouldnt even know it happened
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<Eddi|zuHause>
in all likelyhood i won't land... try 15 times, and then just exit and use the chute
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<Eddi|zuHause>
there's nothing here that looks flat enough to land on
<packbart>
!outcome add That is not drag which can eternal fly. And with strange epochs, even the Kraken may die.
<LunchBot>
Added outcome: That is not drag which can eternal fly. And with strange epochs, even the Kraken may die.
<Mat2ch>
But didn't they usually land on land for CRS missions?
<Althego>
i am not sure
<Althego>
maybe depends on the payload mass
<Althego>
or they could have used the booster fuel to compensate for the short nozzle
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<Eddi|zuHause>
you know what i really hate? that you can't go on EVA from the first crew cabin
<Althego>
do you mean that you need to wait until you get the upgrade for it?
<Althego>
yes somewhat annoying
<Althego>
what i dont like i cant do all the measurements in the first launch. because i cant cram enough science juniors on it
<Althego>
so i need to have two launches
<Althego>
just because there is no eva
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes, which is why you need the crew cabin to put a scientist on, that can reuse one science junior
<Eddi|zuHause>
but the scientist can't get out of the crew cabin
<raptop>
IIRC, you can do some silly crew swap thing with internal transfers?
<Mat2ch>
I usually made smaller contracts to make the money to upgrade
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes
<Eddi|zuHause>
but that is silly, and even more silly, if all seats are full
<Mat2ch>
The whole restrictions are silly.
<Mat2ch>
Even the science tree is somewhat weird :D
<Althego>
wheels are pretty late
<Althego>
way after rockets
<Althego>
meanwhile the vab is full of cars rolling around
<Althego>
ah bat those are special space wheels, you cant compare them to normal wheels
<raptop>
Admittedly, there's a decent chance that you'll discover ladders *after* you've landed on Minmus (or the Mun if you roll that way)
<Eddi|zuHause>
is it too early to try a mun landing?
<Eddi|zuHause>
i've got this contract to test landing gear on descend to the mun (or maybe ascend... :p)
<Eddi|zuHause>
hm... i missed the "low" space on my mun flyby
<Eddi|zuHause>
i should probably make a relay satellite
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<Eddi|zuHause>
well, that's almost a polar orbit
<darsie>
Eddi|zuHause: You can do a Mun landing whenever you're capable of it. It's harder than Minmus, so if you like that challenge, go for it.
<darsie>
Use the delta v map and watch your TWR.
<darsie>
Do you have maneuver planning?
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes
<Eddi|zuHause>
i'm doing a plane mission again... i never learn...
<darsie>
It's possible to jetpack from the Mun to orbit, but you have to fly very efficiently.
<darsie>
Do you know what efficient means here?
<Eddi|zuHause>
Jump up and go horizontal?
<Eddi|zuHause>
i think i've actually done that before
<darsie>
yeah. As horizontal as possible.
<darsie>
cool
<Mat2ch>
From a crater or from a mountain? ;)
<Eddi|zuHause>
don't remember
<darsie>
If you have to fly over an obstacle it may be impossible. if you're in a crater you could go up a crater wall and fly the other way if you can't walk to the top.
<darsie>
I think superman attitude is a must.
<Althego>
hehe
<darsie>
:)
<Althego>
can you make the kerbal hold out one arm?
<Althego>
we need a mod for that
<darsie>
Maybe with mods.
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i think that counts as landing...
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i flew 90° to the landing strip and touched down right after i went across it
<Eddi|zuHause>
right, now thinking whether to do a mun flyby or landing
<funkenstein>
dual-fuselage landing
<funkenstein>
not separate rockets, just two tanks side by side
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<Eddi|zuHause>
that can't possibly work...
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<sandbox>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You build an actual life-sized Schuler pendulum. All hail probe!
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<raptop>
!mission add You hire florks to assist in designing your orbiters and landers.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: You hire florks to assist in designing your orbiters and landers.
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<Eddi|zuHause>
argh... i got the "rocket tips over halfway through" problem again...
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<raptop>
(This I guess means that the TPS vs ERA jokes can also work as outcomes)
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<Eddi|zuHause>
is a 16km mun encounter too close?
<darsie>
Won't crash.
<darsie>
But trajectories might change when switching sphere of influence at high speed.
<darsie>
high time warp*
<darsie>
7 km is pretty safe
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<darsie>
KER can tell you if your trajectory crashes.
<darsie>
KER can tell you if you're on a crash course.
<XXCoder>
;mission
<LunchBot>
You try to store iced tea in a Rockomax Jumbo-64 for a VAB party. You suddenly crave doritos, though you cannot decide on a dip.
<XXCoder>
hmm party averted I guess
<XXCoder>
tea party
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<raptop>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You give your spaceplane a bad attitude. The floating point errors result in floating kerbals.
<raptop>
...How did my attitude get into a regime where it had meaningful floating point errors?
<Eddi|zuHause>
attitude is everything
<Eddi|zuHause>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You see a sign "Do NOT pull lever" with a lever below it. You quit after 30 seconds.
<Eddi|zuHause>
but... did i quit the pulling, or the NOT pulling?
<Mat2ch>
!outcome book
<LunchBot>
No outcome found matching "book".
<Mat2ch>
!outcome add Several books will be written about you.
<LunchBot>
Added outcome: Several books will be written about you.
<Eddi|zuHause>
but will it be a trilogy, or just a bunch of sequels?
<Mat2ch>
It will be a trilogy followed by a buch of sequels.
<Mat2ch>
Every sequel get's wrose.
<Mat2ch>
*worse
<Eddi|zuHause>
*gets
<raptop>
As these things go
<Mat2ch>
gets, right.
<darsie>
Pulling the lever might crush someone under a car.
<Mat2ch>
!mission button press
<LunchBot>
No mission found matching "button press".
<Mat2ch>
!mission button
<LunchBot>
You see a sign "Push button for cookie" with a red button below it.
<Mat2ch>
!mission add You do not push the button.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: You do not push the button.
<raptop>
I guess that leaves more delicious delicacies for the rest of us
<darsie>
.mission add You try to hit space.
<LunchBot>
Added mission: You try to hit space.
<Mat2ch>
Oh, that's good
<darsie>
:)
<raptop>
pun intended?
<darsie>
of course :)
<raptop>
good
<Mat2ch>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You put a rover in a fairing on a rocket in a fairing on a rocket on a rover. As long as he doesn't do anything reckless or stupid, Jeb will be just fine.
<Mat2ch>
He will do something reckless and stupid.
<raptop>
Guess we're going to find out if that was an OR or an XOR
<sandbox>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You switch the safeties off for an experiment. The Konstructor convinces you to make extensive use of Rockomax Mk 55 engines.
<Mat2ch>
!mission
<LunchBot>
You head to the Mun for a round of golf. Jebediah Kerman, Astronaut has gone stark raving mad! [...] Jebediah Kerman, Astronaut, has burned up in magma.
<FLHerne>
I *really* hope the pun was intended when the KSP devs used spacebar for launch
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<FLHerne>
it must surely have been
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<FLHerne>
isn't the Moon notoriously lacking in magma?
<Mat2ch>
it is...
<FLHerne>
I wonder how Jeb managed that then
<Mat2ch>
So he got so mad, he became the magma!
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<FLHerne>
would molten rock from a large meteor impact be lava or magma?
<FLHerne>
probably lava
<Mat2ch>
well, it's funny how we became a !mission channel :D
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<FLHerne>
KSP is sort of a solved problem at this point for the most part
<FLHerne>
quite a few of the !outcomes foresaw this day
<Mat2ch>
hehe
<raptop>
Maybe jeb delved too greedy and too deep? (It might be hot enough near the core. Balls of rock that are thousands of miles across take a while to cool off entirely)
<Eddi|zuHause>
so, i have 1300m/s dv for landing on the mun from orbit, and 1300 for takeoff and return... that should allow for some inefficiency?
<raptop>
For munar orbit -> surface -> munar orbit, yeah. I'm pretty sure that you have 0 or modestly negative margins on landing then getting to Kerbin
<raptop>
Yeah, 0 margin for a direct ascent, decent margins for munar orbit rendezvous
* raptop
checked the /topic'd maps
<Eddi|zuHause>
why? the map says 580 for takeoff to orbit, and 310 for leaving SoI... the rest should be marginal
<Eddi|zuHause>
and my game crashed...
<raptop>
well, also 580 to land
<raptop>
oh, you have 2600 m/s total?
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes
<Eddi|zuHause>
twice 1300
<raptop>
apparently I can't math today.
<FLHerne>
yeah, if you're aerobraking I think it ought to work fine
<Eddi|zuHause>
i could try some biome hopping
<raptop>
Yeah, though that can get expensive quickly
<darsie>
Eddi|zuHause: (On Minmus) I used to scout with a Kerbal/jetpack where 2-3 biomes meet so I could then get there with smaller hops.
<darsie>
1300 m/s for getting to Mun orbit is excessive.
<darsie>
It's also plenty for landing, which tends to be less optimal.
<Eddi|zuHause>
on all my previous mun missions, i usually spent too much on landing
<darsie>
If you have kerbnet you can scout for biome borders to land at.
<Eddi|zuHause>
i don't, but near a canyon or crater wall is probably fine
<Eddi|zuHause>
i should probably decide on a landing site before running out of snacks...
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<Izzy>
just need to computerise landing so it's exactly as optimal as your code
<raptop>
I guess this gets into how fancy you want the code to be
<Izzy>
on a completely unrelated note I spun up a KSRSS instance and my RCS thrusters don't work. any of them, it seems.
<Izzy>
any ideas what might be causing that?
<raptop>
I'd guess something related to recent mod updates, but I run too close to stock to be familiar with the error messages
<packbart>
did you load the correct type of propellant?
<packbart>
istr that KSRSS implies RealFuels
<Izzy>
I'll double check but I think so
<Izzy>
I didn't install RealFuels
<packbart>
hm. then I probably did that in my install for the luls. I haven't started it in a while
<packbart>
just checked, my Aerozine RCS thrusters work in my KSRSS install
<Izzy>
huh, might be a fuel flow problem or something? ???
<Izzy>
or maybe a control issue?
<Izzy>
okay I have no idea why it wasn't working now
<Izzy>
it works
<Izzy>
:|
<packbart>
I might remove RealFuels as well. I don't even know what most of these fuels are or why to use the over others
<Izzy>
cryotanks/engines and near future add enough variety for me
<Izzy>
end up with kerolox, monoprop, LH2/LOX and LCH4/LOX, plus some ... unusual things later in the tech tree
<Izzy>
oh wait.
<Izzy>
I was using my modified LF/OX RCS thrusters.
<Izzy>
but only had monoprop.
<Izzy>
that's why it wasn't working
<raptop>
packbart: Just use water full of uranium salts!
<raptop>
>.>
<raptop>
<.<
<packbart>
yes, Hydrolox, Methalox I can deal with. I guess RealFuels is more for realistic replicas, so you need the options of MON1, MON3, MON10, MON15, etc.
<raptop>
oh, all those weird hypergol variants
<packbart>
LqdFlourine sounds like fun
<packbart>
that's probably for some converter chains, I guess?
<raptop>
Hrm, nominally you should be able to run that with liquid hydrogen (is there a mixed lox / fluorine oxidizer option?)
<packbart>
I haven't seen an engine configuration that would use it, yet
<Eddi|zuHause>
yay, i hit a crater wall at 300m/s
<raptop>
Now the entire crew is mystery goo!
<raptop>
Anyway, making many simplifying assumptions: if you kill your horizontal velocity at y meters altitude, you should ignight your engines for a suicide burn at y/TWR meters
<raptop>
I haven't tried this out yet
<Eddi|zuHause>
.... and i tipped over
<raptop>
I want to say that the stock leg settings are insufficiently stiff