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<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
PEG seems to want to angle up a lot while still relatively deep in the atmosphere
<awang>
Then angle down quite a bit
<awang>
Instead of a smoother trajectory
<awang>
idk if it's because I have a relatively short time to orbit though
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<awang>
Wait what
<awang>
Description for the Ranger solar panel
<awang>
Part name: RO-rangerSolarPanel
<awang>
From Realism Overhaul mod (PART NOT SUPPORTED BY RO BUT PLACED AND COSTED BY RP-0)
<awang>
Why is something from RO but not supported by RO?
<blowfish>
I have no idea
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<taniwha>
because I made it?
<taniwha>
(wording may be a bit off, though)
<blowfish>
taniwhat?
<ProjectThoth>
blowfish: 11/10
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<taniwha>
blowfish: the wh is (close to) an f, not a w
<blowfish>
indeed, it wouldn't have worked in speech
<taniwha>
yeah
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<egg|zzz|egg>
taniwha: you should have the IPA in your nick
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<awang>
Does boiloff happen even while an engine is running?
<awang>
I'd imagine that the rate at which the engine consumes cryogenics is enough to make enough free space that no cryogenics have to be vented
<stratochief>
in RealLife, or in RealFuels?
<stratochief>
I believe that in RF, the heat generated by a running engine leads to increased boiloff
<awang>
Both, I guess?
<awang>
If boiloff doesn't matter for running engines in real life, I'd imagine that it shouldn't matter for RF either
<Sarbian>
awang: what did MJ break this time ?
<awang>
Sarbian: ?
<Sarbian>
"And now MJ isn't cutting off the upper stage"
<awang>
Oh
<awang>
MJ isn't shutting off my upper stage engine when PEG finishes
<awang>
Sometimes
<Sarbian>
oh, that s lamont territory then ;)
<awang>
So instead of ending up in a ~185km x 185km orbit, I end up in a ~185km x ~500km orbit
<awang>
Unfortunately, he can't reproduce it
<awang>
And it doesn't happen consistently to me either
<awang>
:(
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<awang>
Raidernick: Is one of the Explorer 6 solar panels supposed to be stuck in the retracted position?
<awang>
Or at least it stays retracted when clicking "deploy solar panels" in the VAB
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<awang>
Why does the AIES CL-1 dish have ModuleTagInstruments?
<lamont>
yeah i haven’t seen that since i fixed the one problem
<awang>
Is that a mistake?
<lamont>
i’ve seen other issues where PEG doesn’t start if dV of the burn is too small
<awang>
Looks like RTShortDish2 also has ModuleTagInstruments?
<awang>
\o lamont
<awang>
Sorry to bug you with an unreproducible issue :(
<awang>
Any idea why the heading would drift gradually southward during a launch?
<awang>
And why vgo would jump suddenly during terminal guidance?
<awang>
Pap: Are long-range antennae supposed to have ModuleTagInstruments?
<awang>
Oh, and does RP-0 remove the distinction between relay and "normal" antennae?
<awang>
Last question is for everyone, I guess
<Raidernick>
@awang, yes
<awang>
Raidernick: Did a panel actually get stuck during the mission?
<Raidernick>
@awang, yes
<awang>
That's a nice touch!
<lamont>
terminal guidance is when the thrust integrals (that compute vgo) become unstable
<lamont>
oh in terman guidance vgo isn’t updated at all
<lamont>
it should freeze
<awang>
lamont: Uh
<awang>
That's definitely not what I'm seeing
<lamont>
okay that means you’re changing states somehow
<awang>
Definitely jumping from ~600 m/s to ~2700 m/s
<lamont>
yeah in terminal guidance the peg update routine is never called
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Should autopilot status change to read "terminal guidance"?
<lamont>
so vgo is not updated, tgo should freeze at 10 seconds
<awang>
tgo doesn't freeze either
<lamont>
uhm… no?
<lamont>
oh sorry no, tgo should count down monoatomically (brain still not entirely awake today)
<awang>
Oh, ok
<awang>
So that part at least isn't broken
<lamont>
yeah i took the code out of the ascent guidance that displayed “Terminal Guidance”, i should put that back
<awang>
Another thing I noticed is that when vgo jumps to ~2700 m/s it starts counting down "smoothly"
<awang>
Instead of only updating every so frequently like it does normally
<lamont>
vgo starts updating continuously after that?
<awang>
Yeah
<lamont>
so, either the state machine broke somehow and you found a way out of terminal guidance (which seems a bit weird) or you’ve possibly given PEG an impossible problem to solve
<lamont>
yeah i’m guessing it was never converged to start with
<awang>
Any way for me to tell?
<lamont>
not without some code changes
<awang>
Hmmm
<lamont>
i was thinking new PEG would be a bit more magical and always stable and was ripping code out of the ascent autopilot, then refactored all the status codes, and haven’t quite completed that work to giving good status displays back to the UI
<awang>
An impossible problem sounds funky, given that I've used this launch profile (and a very similar rocket) several times before
<awang>
Main difference I can think of is that the margins are much smaller
<lamont>
dunno but it feels like you’re describing that PEG wasn’t converged
<lamont>
(which the UX will totally lie about right now)
<awang>
Another thing I noticed is that if I hit the "reset PEG" button, PEG pretty much freaks out and tries to point the rocket due north/south
<awang>
vgo will also drop from ~2700 m/s to ~1200 m/s
<lamont>
yeah that sounds like you’re giving it a difficult or impossible problem somehow
<awang>
Interesting
<awang>
another thing
<awang>
yinc will say 28.6084, since I'm launching east from the Cape
<lamont>
it might be a problem with the initialization (which i was playing with fairly recently) but its generally very tolerant
<awang>
But over the course of the launch, heading will drift southward
<lamont>
great circle curve, that’s normal
<awang>
So by the time I'm nearing the end of orbital insertion, my actual inclination is 28.59 something
<awang>
Oh, ok
<awang>
I was wondering if it didn't realize that it's at the wrong inclination until terminal guidance, and then at that point tries to fix it
<lamont>
and 28.6084 is pretty damn close to 28.59
<awang>
which might explain the huge increase in dv required
<awang>
And heading change
<lamont>
i think there may still be an inverse rotation bug somewhere
<lamont>
i can see it more on stock where it wobbles a bunch when it gest out of the atmosphere
<lamont>
and the steering code to target an inclination with the LAN being free seems to not be quite as ‘stiff’ as targeting an exact orbit for some reason, so there’s a bit more inaccuracy in the final orbit there. unfortunately the steering code is still mathematical voodoo to me.
<lamont>
but anyway, the old code to “just launch east” was always broken because if you want to launch to 28.608 due east from KSC, then you want to follow a great circle curve down to the equator so will always need to steer south. what you should see is that a “due east” launch should always be lined up with the surface velocity heading on the navball. it should drift east at exactly the same rate.
<lamont>
spherical geometry, not r/flatearth
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
The drift now makes sense
<awang>
Also, your last sentence
<awang>
Should that be "drift south"?
<lamont>
yes
<lamont>
need more coffee
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<awang>
How bad would a low TWR stage be for just getting to a LEO orbit?
<awang>
Trying to decide between the RD-0105 and X405 for orbital insertion stage
<awang>
Former gets 577 m/s more dv, but the burn is 8 minutes instead of 2.5
<awang>
Starting TWR is 0.4
<awang>
They produce stages with similar amounts of mass
<awang>
I also like how the initial RD-107/RD-108 upgrades are worse than the starting config
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<UmbralRaptor>
o_O
<UmbralRaptor>
I have questions.
<awang>
?
<awang>
lamont: Should PEG automatically take care of lobbing an upper stage higher?
<awang>
Er, low-TWR upper stage
<awang>
UmbralRaptor: Questions?
<UmbralRaptor>
awang: why are the RD-107/108 upgrades worse? That sounds like a bug.
<awang>
UmbralRaptor: Lower isp, lower thrust, same mass, additional cost. I'll pull some examples when I can get back to the VAB
<awang>
IIRC some other engines besides the RD-107/RD-108 also exhibit this, but I don't remember off the top of my head
<awang>
Same burn time, too
<UmbralRaptor>
Did this happen in real life? >_>
<awang>
I haven't the faintest idea
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<awang>
Dangit, PEG says 15 m/s left
<awang>
Turns out the low TWR stage was the right call
<awang>
Absolutely no way I would have gotten close to orbit with the higher TWR
<awang>
Even with the extra steering/gravity losses
<awang>
LR43-NA-5 is the first unlock, but has a vacuum thrust of 240.2kN and isp of 210-301
<awang>
Costs 15000 to unlock, but doesn't cost extra per-unit
<awang>
Does RCS auto-balance?
<awang>
Assuming they're throttleable
<awang>
Which they appear to be, in RP-0 at least
<awang>
lamont: Another data point
<awang>
Launched for target of 185x185, got 248.617x174.369, with vessel altitude at 184,158
<awang>
Upper stage started at TWR of ~0.4, ended at 2.19
<awang>
MJ cut off upper stage automatically
<awang>
Saw quite a bit of pitch oscillation near the end
<awang>
Dropped to ~2-4 degrees, then rose to ~50 degrees
<awang>
So upper stage is rotating relatively rapidly at burnout
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<awang>
Raidernick: is there something different about how the solar panels on the Pioneer 5 work? The right-click menu is telling me that I have 25% exposure, and rotating the probe doesn't seem to change that number
<awang>
Am I just not rotating enough?
<Raidernick>
it uses the curved solar panel module
<Raidernick>
that's how it works
<Raidernick>
the total wattage of the panels defined in the config is the max wattage if every panel was directly in sunlight combined
<Raidernick>
since that would never happen irl especially if it's spinning, you get less
<Raidernick>
it's accounted for
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
That makes more sense
<awang>
Is there a way to see the actual max wattage you'd get in practice without actually going and flying the ship?
<Raidernick>
at the actual distance from the sun pioneer 5 is supposed to be you will lose EC over time no matter how you are facing
<Raidernick>
you need to have it in hibernation when not using the instruments
<Raidernick>
infact most of the probes need to be in hibernation when not running science
<Raidernick>
as in KSP you can't account for turning off individual systems
<Raidernick>
like IRL
<Raidernick>
and the published ec usage values from probes are always higher than the panels can provide because it is about all systems added together
<Raidernick>
i rarely find data for individual experiments on these old ass probes
<awang>
I see
<awang>
I was wondering why the wattage seemed so high compared to the standalone panels available
<Raidernick>
i worded that confusingly, what I mean is that when these EC usage values for these probes are posted(IF they are posted which is not often), it is always the combined usage of all experiemnts at once
<Raidernick>
you'd never have every single experiment running at max capacity at the same time
<awang>
Makes planning electricity usage tricky
<awang>
Oh, that makes more sense
<Raidernick>
it's very difficult to guess values to adjust for this luckily ksp has that built in probe hibernation mode now
<Raidernick>
just use that
<Raidernick>
it can simulate turning stuff off
<awang>
I definitely will do that
<Raidernick>
i can only guarantee the battery and solar panel values are correct
<Raidernick>
not EC usage of the craft
<Raidernick>
since i have to guess there 99% of the time
<Raidernick>
solar panels are always publisehd values and for the batteries i came up with a formula to accurately calculate the watt hours
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
I don't see a hibernate option on the right-click menu
<awang>
Think that might be RO or RP-0's fault though