raptop changed the topic of #KSPOfficial to: Kerbal Space Program official channel | versions: KSP1 1.12.1 bit.ly/ksp112update | Rules: tinyurl.com/KSP-Rules | "modcall" to call ops | Δv maps: https://i.imgur.com/CHVnEeE.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/gBoLsSt.png | https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/203227-kerbal-space-program-112-on-final-approach-is-now-available/ Got bugs? Verify files on Steam for instant happiness
<XXCoder>
you tgen design a plane with dock on bottom, and its high enough to drive over booster
<XXCoder>
drive over, dock, then get back on strap and take off
<Eddi|zuHause>
i think that's missing about half a dozen points :p
<XXCoder>
lol
<darsie>
Eddi|zuHause: You can do teh above part from orbit at 69.9 km.
<darsie>
polar orbit
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i'll try burning off some fuel on another mission, i think i can make it with this plane
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* raptop
switches the grav rifle to 5-round bursts
<Eddi|zuHause>
the annoying thing about this plane is it has a very very slight roll, so if i don't look for 5 minutes, i'm going in a completely wrong direction
* raptop
has definitely had craft where they just gave up and flew it with SAS on
<Eddi|zuHause>
i used to do that, but that has issues where it'll just wobble itself to death randomly
<Solar_Oracle>
@raptop Ah, the, "Absolutely everything must die" setting
<raptop>
Solar_Oracle: I feel like a version of those rifles by an author who did their homework would be hilarious
<raptop>
"Why do they only have a single shot setting?" "Because you're not doing point defense against torch missiles"
<raptop>
hrm
<raptop>
probably could be phrased better, but still
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<Solar_Oracle>
I'm guessing Ringo thought, "Gee, relativistic sounds cool" and did absolutely no math after that.
<Solar_Oracle>
Sort of like how people misunderstand quantum teleportation to mean FTL communications.
<Solar_Oracle>
I'll be really surprised if the FTL travel stays consistent throughout the book, let alone the franchise.
* raptop
is willing to give Stross a pass for his quantium entaglement communications system in Singularity Sky & Iron Sunrise. But then that was in part because of the rules it followed
<Solar_Oracle>
Honestly, I'd infinitely prefer consistent magical systems over badly integrated, "scientific" methods of FTL anything at this point. Astropaths and Navigators don't at least pretend to be steeped in misunderstood physics.
<Solar_Oracle>
I'm glossing over the next chapter right now, and there's severe mention of conventional and rocket artillery that seems to be based on existing stuff. With the kind of weapons the power armor are towing around, they'd be laughably underpowered by comparison.
<Solar_Oracle>
If you could give a person a man-portable relativistic weapon, imagine what a vehicle mounted one could do.
<Solar_Oracle>
And while I'm not sure if it's in this book, later ones employ antimatter munitions. Instead of a conventional multiple rocket launcher system, think about how many tactical nuke equivalents you could put in bottle-rocket sized missiles on the back of atruck.
<Solar_Oracle>
Hehe, and the rocket artillery they brought is useless where they'll be fighting first because multi-kilometer tall buildings will be in the way.
<raptop>
hah
<raptop>
"Sorry sir, they're taking cover behind the Clarke Tower"
<Solar_Oracle>
To think they could've spent time developing anti-matter mortars instead of putting normal 40mm 'nade launchers on the power armor.
<Solar_Oracle>
Going a little further ahead (just skimming), grav rifles carry thousands of rounds apiece described as, "pellets", and they even have gravity PISTOLS!
* raptop
files grav rifles under "not quite as overpowered as graviton beam emitters"
<Solar_Oracle>
It seems the human forces on Nintendo DS IV get predictably slaughtered.
<Solar_Oracle>
This whole scenario is just as contrived as the Battle of Yonkers from World War Z: It could only happen when IQs drop to the single digits.
<Solar_Oracle>
The missile launchers on the power armor are also kinetic, "hyper velocity" missiles. Given that they're firing depleted uranium pellets are relativistic speed, this is . . . entirely pointless.
<Solar_Oracle>
The guns should be doing orders of a magnitude more damage than the missiles unless the latter were rivaling large nuclear warheads in yield.
<Solar_Oracle>
This would be like forcing modern soldiers with assault rifles to go into combat with bundles of javelins with wooden points.
<Solar_Oracle>
Sure, they can kill someone if you get close enough, but they're not going to be nearrrrly as effective as the gun.
<Eddi|zuHause>
annoying... i managed to get to 16900 once... but it wasn't at the correct location. and i can't reproduce it :(
<Solar_Oracle>
I think my estimate as one DU, "bullet" weighting 1 gram was a pretty good given the descriptions in the book
<Solar_Oracle>
Though Ringo implies they're much faster than the 2% of C that I used as an estimate.
<Solar_Oracle>
I'm going to save revised updates in a special notepad file.
<Solar_Oracle>
Ouch.
<Solar_Oracle>
So, I've calculated it out: For the, "hypervelocity kinetic missiles" to at least *equal* the grav-gun DU pellets for energy, a 1 kg round must go at least 189,631 m/s or a round going 9,000 m/s (hypersonic bordering on LEO speeds) must at least 443.95 kg in mass.
<Solar_Oracle>
So, as I thought: The missiles are useless by comparison.
<Mat2ch>
And the drone ship itself is not that huge of a deal. It has starlink connection all the way, probably a second and third way for backup communications
<Mat2ch>
it probably has some assistance in the port and surrounding area
<Mat2ch>
but then other ships need that, too.
<Mat2ch>
And when it is in the open water it just needs to set the heading and go.
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<Mat2ch>
Usually there's not much else. And planning a course around other ships is easy when all have AIS on board
<Mat2ch>
then it has probably cameras and some software on it to detect objects
<JVFoxy>
rwar
<minas_tirith>
JVFoxy, hi
<JVFoxy>
lo
<JVFoxy>
I used to pickup AIS through software and a station I have at home... but hadn't used it in a while. Software updates, still haven't migrated everything over
<Eddi|zuHause>
... after sleeping a night over it, i finally made it to 16900m
<Eddi|zuHause>
now the part where i need to look for a landing spot
<JVFoxy>
... what's going on?
<XXCoder>
nice
<Eddi|zuHause>
i took a few "get data in flight on kerbin" missions. and while flying i noticed that one of the entries was not "below" but "above" 16900m
<Althego>
i hate those early career above missions
<Eddi|zuHause>
and yesterday i was flying in circles a few times, trying to climb that distance
<Althego>
usually they are far away too
<Althego>
so you have to carry rocket fuel with weak jet engines there
<Eddi|zuHause>
i made it without rockets
<JVFoxy>
oh ugh..
<JVFoxy>
above 18k, but half way around the planet.. like really?
<Eddi|zuHause>
like i said, i didn't notice until i was mid flight
<Eddi|zuHause>
and it was 1 out of 4 parts of that mission
<JVFoxy>
got something similar.. a point in the contract I missed, it was just one thing though and ugh..
<JVFoxy>
I don't remember what it was..
<JVFoxy>
lol.. I did a docking thing, but, cuz I had something already docked which was older, wouldn't complete. Till I undocked it for a moment. Derp
<Eddi|zuHause>
yeah, i once got one of those, too... ended up editing the save file
<Eddi|zuHause>
looking for the part that was too old
<JVFoxy>
built ship with docking thing on it, future plans to do it myself. Then contact shows up. I sent up a station. Decided to put ship on to it. Sent up another ship to satisfy the contract's new ships clause. Sat there wondering, what..? undocked old ship, oh it finished. Well.. ugh. ok fine.
<JVFoxy>
lol.. one contract 3 17km waypoints over the KSC. I launched a ship up. More of a hover boat or something. rocket powered heli in a sense. ditched boosters once I got up there, went form point to point, parachuted down
<Althego>
yes i like those, i can just use rockets for that
<Eddi|zuHause>
i used rockets for some of those, too
<Althego>
but as these ocntracts keep popping up they get farther and farther away
<Eddi|zuHause>
now back to the old question... how the f* do i land these things?
<JVFoxy>
depends on teh design? kind of a broad question
<Althego>
parachute is the easiest
<JVFoxy>
parachute, wheels, powered landing?
<Eddi|zuHause>
wheels
<Althego>
water landing
<Eddi|zuHause>
first generation
<JVFoxy>
... plane?
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes
<JVFoxy>
fist tier landing wheels are just... ouch
<JVFoxy>
sometimes I've doubled on the mains
<Althego>
not as bad as they used to be
<JVFoxy>
also helps to know your stall speed as well so you don't just brick into hte ground
<Althego>
there was a time when those unsteerable diagonal wheels would just explode to the touch
<XXCoder>
can always have parts you can blow off by landing
<Eddi|zuHause>
how would i learn my stall speed?
<JVFoxy>
lol ya... old days, even with tiny probe planes, so much as touch ground, it rips them off. annoying
<XXCoder>
like air intakes
<JVFoxy>
event these days, the 'elastic' connection can still break if you not careful
<XXCoder>
i have done bunch of belly landings too
<XXCoder>
because wheels really suck back then
<JVFoxy>
are you flying with or without power while trying to land?
<Eddi|zuHause>
i've tried both, with about equal amount of non-success :)
<XXCoder>
with power? or did you mean with thrust which means it was with engines off
<XXCoder>
oh lol
<JVFoxy>
its .....
<JVFoxy>
well powered is easiest. you get into level flight, reduce till you start noticing you have to pitch up to keep from loosing altittude
<JVFoxy>
if half your control is used up to keep from dropping, there is your 'safe' stall.
<JVFoxy>
unpowered, you have to be high enough to gain speed, same deal but now when you get to half control, start pitching down so you don't just drop out
<JVFoxy>
trouble with KSP is the whole L/D (lift, drag) aspects don't really match the real world ones. Something about one one can maximize endurance and distance.
<JVFoxy>
er.. I mean distance, /or/ endurance.
<Eddi|zuHause>
i'm using FAR if that makes a difference
<XXCoder>
yeah, i remember stupid infiglider bug. i made snowflake "plane" exploiting that
<Althego>
you could totally swin with control surfaces and take off. then couldnt land because sas excited the bug
<JVFoxy>
ugh.. FAR, is it as much as a pain to work with like it used to be?
<Eddi|zuHause>
dunno what pain you mean
<JVFoxy>
has to be exact or, plane is completely unflyable
<JVFoxy>
I had some serious problems with yaw, play would spin around
<Althego>
not even reality is that strict
<XXCoder>
alt yours must be even earlier version of bug, i had to launch with rocket to get snowflake to fly
<XXCoder>
and not really succeeding sometimes. though explosions is fun because you havestuff staying up in sky lol]
<JVFoxy>
I know my aerodynamics pretty good (ground school, did some flight training) but when it comes to constantly unplayable, ya .. looses fun fast
<JVFoxy>
lol.. does FAR account for slipstream in prop wash?
<JVFoxy>
Eddi|zuHause let me see your plane in the VAB.. curious of CoM and CoL locations
<Eddi|zuHause>
difficult to do that while airborne :p
<JVFoxy>
oh.. when you got a moment. Was going to suggest some ideas that might help a little
<JVFoxy>
I get that people like explody stuffs in KSP but if its all that ever happens, never get anything done
<Althego>
now that i got through the almost 7 hour collab stream from yesterday, i can continue with flat earth content :)
<Eddi|zuHause>
i can sorta get it to hover around 95...
<Althego>
what if you pitch the wings the tiniest bit?
<Althego>
few degrees
<Althego>
on the body
<JVFoxy>
could put engines lower on body, that way its not forcing the plane to pitch forwards all the time
<Eddi|zuHause>
that's not a thing i can do while airborne
<JVFoxy>
no.. when you get a moment
<JVFoxy>
oh one thing can do though while flying: do you use trim?
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes
<JVFoxy>
ok good.. learned fast how much a pain it was flying keyboard without trim
<JVFoxy>
though sometimes would catch me in spaceplanes going to orbit if SAS was turned off
<Eddi|zuHause>
it's a very hidden feature :p
<JVFoxy>
don't know about hidden..
<Eddi|zuHause>
it's not explained anywhere, and it requires weird modifier keys to activate
<JVFoxy>
they'll teach you very quickly in flight school, use the trim, or you going to tire yourself out pretty fast holding the stick for so long
<JVFoxy>
some people would argue, rocket sim, not plane sim but anywys
<JVFoxy>
how many hours I've spent flying planes in KSP :P
<Eddi|zuHause>
that's a stupid argument
<Eddi|zuHause>
like saying transport fever is a train game...
<JVFoxy>
people have their ways with things I guess
<JVFoxy>
wold love to try transport fever.. trains and trucks
<JVFoxy>
btw.. that center section of your plan.. fuel tank (full?) or empty body section?
<Eddi|zuHause>
before i crash right into terrain... anyone know the exact height of the plains around KSC?
<Eddi|zuHause>
fuel tank, but empty now
<JVFoxy>
click the icon next to your altittude, it'll switch between mean sea level and height over groudn
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes. but i'm approaching from the water
<JVFoxy>
mmmk
<JVFoxy>
was more for when you were curious about the plains area
<Eddi|zuHause>
yes. but if i want to land there, it would be nice to know the exact height i should approaching from
<JVFoxy>
KSC isn't actually at water level.. slightly above.
<Eddi|zuHause>
i know that. that's why i was asking
<JVFoxy>
can also take a mental note while taking off too. depending on plane designs, can affect reading by a few meters. More so when it comes to bigger designs
<JVFoxy>
when I land.. I use the reading up till I get into final stages. Then I just focus on vertical and airspeed
<JVFoxy>
anyways.. might coffee shop soon
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i've been at this long enough, doesn't get any better
<Althego>
you can always redesign until it gets better
<minas_tirith>
Althego, hi
<Althego>
heh i missed the non-zombie ollie stream start. certainly doesnt start with zombanwa
<JVFoxy>
... looking at the design, could offer some tips. but I need coffee >_<
<Eddi|zuHause>
wheels are now exactly at the back of the wings
<Althego>
this should be able to fly with 40 or so
<JVFoxy>
could.. but if it were me, I'd put engines under the wings, down lower part of the body, so they dont' blast the tailplane
<Althego>
they are far apart
<JVFoxy>
but then that is me thinking if engine goes out, oops
<Althego>
dont hit the tail
<Eddi|zuHause>
i had the tail problem in my very first design, putting them higher was the first solution i thought of
<JVFoxy>
suspect as you use up fuel, cuz the tank is in the back, CoM will shift forwards, not too big a deal. At least it won't shift behind your wheels
<JVFoxy>
you can move the tail itself up slightly if you want, it'll be ok. Engines can shoot under it
<Althego>
you can also use the other tailboom, the angled one, when it becomes available
<Eddi|zuHause>
i don't have the other tail yet
<Althego>
also possible to make a v tail, that completely avoids the exhaust hitting them
<JVFoxy>
if you do, take care when you put tail planes on it, use absolute rotation to get things straight again. Otherwise it'll wanna pitch up when you fly
<Eddi|zuHause>
with empty tanks the COM shifts forward just into the science thing
<JVFoxy>
that angle boom is a bit of a pain sometimse if you don't know how to use it right. I normally put mirrored elevators on it like I would rudder but flatten them with rotate
<Althego>
there are some parts like that unfortunately
<JVFoxy>
ya I figured as much.. its not too big a shift. Bigger projects, the shift can be a lot worse an really mess with things
<Althego>
but i think this plane should work better
<Althego>
maybe add flaps too
<Althego>
helps with landing speed
<JVFoxy>
can't, he hasn't the parts to spare
<JVFoxy>
unless you unlock those angled wings, make htem one instead of two each
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<Eddi|zuHause>
i think i can save 2 or 3 parts
<JVFoxy>
swept wings are nice but I sometimes find they are too much swept. I put my ailerons and flaps on before sweeping them a little straighter to help with CoL
<Althego>
i just rotate them forward
<JVFoxy>
find if you rotate them before adding those parts, doesn't always match the edges very well
<Althego>
and there we arrive to the problematic parts again. putting on control surfaces most of the time is a lot of manual rotations instead of just snappin in place
<minas_tirith>
Althego, did she do the diffeq stream
<darsie>
No amount of chute/jetpack switches gets me a deploy chute button.
<JVFoxy>
just land on head
<darsie>
nope, reduce speed by lower atmosphere and horizontal attitude.
<JVFoxy>
mm ok
<JVFoxy>
more boosters they say... well doubling juno engines seems to have done something as well
<darsie>
I circumnavigated Kerbin with a minimal Juno craft.
<JVFoxy>
I just passed over ice shelf edge
<JVFoxy>
21.5 minutes
<JVFoxy>
lol realized jeb can't get out.. door blocked by engine casing
<JVFoxy>
not a big deal.. just messing with this idea
<JVFoxy>
yup.. didn't matter.. touch down, wobble at 120m/s, cartwheel of death:P
<JVFoxy>
ok maybe not as fast as 120m/s... more like 100-90? extra engine weight kinda bumped up stall speed a bit
<JVFoxy>
enough ksp for now..
<JVFoxy>
lol.. now the sudden explosion woke me up.. guess time to get my day going
<Althego>
ksp. anything can explode, anytime
<JVFoxy>
ksp.. where physics can be weird.. sometimes
<JVFoxy>
try a probe can on 3 of the small landing legs. Drop springs down to 0, watch it pull something like 50gs into the air
<JVFoxy>
early games, I messing with seperatrons. a lot of them. on struts. would load in, things go nuts after launch and blow up
<JVFoxy>
anycase.. gotta drop off, been fun
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<Eddi|zuHause>
the cool thing about tourist orbit missions is, you can on-the-fly also collect the "rescue from low orbit" guys when you have spare seats
<darsie>
I let the stranded guys rescue themselves.