umbralraptop changed the topic of #KSPOfficial to: Kerbal Space Program official channel | versions: KSP1 1.10.1 | Rules: tinyurl.com/KSP-Rules | "modcall" to call ops | Δv maps: https://i.imgur.com/CHVnEeE.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/gBoLsSt.png | < packbart> I hope their sample isn't contaminated by the lunar tardigrade colony
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<cirith_ungol>
Truga, 1200 bpm
<darsie>
My nerv will only go at 38%, 23 kN ... unless I can upgrade Bill ...
<darsie>
pushing a class I comet with 23 kN. I must be crazy.
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<Althego>
and the 7th launch moves each day. move towards midnight each time
<darsie>
I thought stuff inside fairings wouldn't be simulated, but I had it swaying out of the fairing.
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<Althego>
there used to be an automatic autostrut there to prevent this. maybe that behavior was changed
<umbralraptop>
I feel like fairings have had a lot of physics bugs
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* darsie
added struts. Not cheating with autostruts ;)
<darsie>
Caught Jeb before take off.
<Althego>
always sneaks in to every capsule :)
<Althego>
scott
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<minas_tirith>
Althego, orkish in Finnish
<Althego>
what
<umbralraptop>
No, Sindarin is Finnish
<umbralraptop>
(Quenyan is Latin)
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<Althego>
i can only speak some swear words in finnish
<minas_tirith>
umbralraptop, I meant I was curious how finns would speak black speech via their own tongue
<umbralraptop>
hrm
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<minas_tirith>
Lyneira, hewwo
<minas_tirith>
umbralraptop, the finnish has an interesting way of combining multiple words into a single word
<Althego>
many languages do that
<umbralraptop>
Obviously this means that Finnish and Sumerian are related
<Althego>
lol
<Althego>
you dont know how many people believe hungarian and sumerian are related
* umbralraptop
has heard people joke that martians actually live on earth, but they prefer to be called hungarians
<Althego>
there is a book about that. probably hungarian only. i could translate the title as arrival of the martians. about martians trying to destroy human civilization by trying to invent nuclear fission and fusion bombs
<Althego>
or at least half jokingly it is the story about those
<Althego>
(the bombs)
<Althego>
because they couldnt speak english clearly they decided to pretend to be hungarians
<Althego>
thunderf00t is dissecting hyperloop again. at this point it is deader than dinosaur bones. yet the idea refuses to go away
<Althego>
ah that reminds me, i have to check what is happening on flat earth
<umbralraptop>
I'd like to see a dissection of possibly solveable tranist problems like what makes it almost impossible to run >2 buses/hour along a given route
<Althego>
it isnt
* umbralraptop
knows of only one route in the DC metro area with 3/hour, and that's eventually going to be replaced by a subway
<Althego>
hehe wanted to link an example. got 502 from cloudflare. this is totally funny
<umbralraptop>
see!
<deadmind>
<minas_tirith> umbralraptop, the finnish has an interesting way of combining multiple words into a single word < tbh, while Finnish and especially Hungarian are more complicated than most, i think this is more the norm than the weird 'detached words floating about separately in space' way that English uses to modify meaning
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<deadmind>
as someone who learned English as a second language and remember staring at the words in a sentence and being baffled at how they would add up to the meaning that that sentence ostensibly had, i am still frequently amazed at how much English relies on rote learning of unconnected idioms and phrases
<deadmind>
i think that's the workaround for the missing agglutination that for some reason didn't carry over from German :)
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<Mat2ch>
Althego: I hate thunderfoot exactly for that. With this attitude we'd probably never had smartphones or phones at all.
<Mat2ch>
There is no alternative to a hyperloop system. Air travel will be restricted heavily in the next 10 years. People don't seem to be able to grasp how hard climate change will hit us.
<Althego>
high speed train. without the vacuum
<Althego>
also with better batteries: electric planes. since a turbofan mostly generates thrust by the fan already, you just need to replace the jet with an electric motor
<darsie>
hydrogen, methane or ammonia fuel cells.
<Althego>
i am not a fan of hydrogen fuel cells
<Althego>
how is methane going to be carbon neutral?
<darsie>
If it's made from biomatter or CO2.
<deadmind>
Mat2ch why would hyperloop be necessary? it's an unproven proposed system that doesn't even win against established and simpler systems on paper
<deadmind>
why not just build shit that is cheaper and has been working for decades?
<deadmind>
e.g. high speed rail
<darsie>
Because it's slower and has higher losses.
<darsie>
There are maglev trains. Just put them in vacuum tubes.
* TheKosmonaut
has detected a violation in the morality code for #KSPOfficial
<TheKosmonaut>
deadmind: you have been fined 30 credits
<TheKosmonaut>
Please send payment posthaste to the Ministry of Morals.
<deadmind>
if we're talking about the hypothetical best-case scenario for hyperloop, sure, but as far as I know there still is no easy/cheap solution to get an actual evacuated tube on any sort of real world distances. IF you can get that working cheaper than just building a regular ass train and paying for rolling resistance and drag loss instead of air pumping loss then hyperloop would be allright
<deadmind>
TheKosmonaut: oh no! :D -- also what, is it amoral to not bandwagon the hyperloop idea in here?
<TheKosmonaut>
You have violated KSP COMMUNITY GUIDELINE 2.2 (g) WHICH STATES: "Use of vulgarity, profanity, parts thereof (S***) and any technique that bypasses the language filter to post vulgar or profane content;"
<TheKosmonaut>
There is no such rule in the KSP COMMUNITY GUIDELINES
* TheKosmonaut
retracts hardpoints and continues cruising in witchspace
<Mat2ch>
deadmind: because people will always compare the current system to planes. Means: We need trains that go as fast as planes. But we need to conserve energy as well, so highspeed trains that go 700 km/h won't be a thing.
<deadmind>
oh. dang. i apologize, i totally timewarped through that maneuver :D
<Althego>
they dont need to go as fast as planes
<Althego>
provided you dont need 2 hours to finally get on them
<Althego>
with useless security checks
<Mat2ch>
and for hyperloop you don't need a vacuum, but a low pressure tube. And you can keep that low pressure, if you design in locks
<deadmind>
Mat2ch: where does the 700 kmh need come from, though? people comparing it to planes on Twitter does not matter, it's a transit system not a political platform. when viewed as an engineer, even IF air travel was your direct target and we were talking strictly long-distance here, you wouldn't need anywhere near 700 km/h to be better than planes
<Althego>
that low pressure is around martian levels, basically vacuum for any normal person
<deadmind>
most plane journeys average WAY less than that, in fact in many cases you wouldn't even need "high-speed" rail to beat planes
<Mat2ch>
smaller capsules also means: Smaller tracks, more flexible routing AND: almost no noise, so it's much easier to build this in urban areas
<Mat2ch>
And that's the next mistake all of you are making. We don't need hyperloop for travels below 300 km. We need it for the long jorneys, 1000 km and above
<Mat2ch>
say you wanna go from Europe to the US by train. How long would it take?
<Althego>
and how would you do it?
<Althego>
hyperloop under the sea?
<Mat2ch>
and yes, you have to go the other way round, because there's no way we will build a train line through the Atlantic ocean
<deadmind>
Mat2ch: the goal isn't to make an engineering art piece though, doing whatever it takes to make the idea possible. the goal is to provide a better overall transit service to populations. in that race, a highly security sensitive and expensive pressure-controlled tube carrying low passenger count vehicles, would likely lose out to current in-service transit systems (not high tech 'planned'
<deadmind>
ones) in most cases
<Mat2ch>
What is "high-tech" on hyperloop that isn't already high-tech on a regular highspeed train?
<Mat2ch>
Sucking out the air of a tube? Not high tech anymore.
<deadmind>
there's no way we're going to build an underground tunnel through the Atlantic ocean, if we did, the rail vs. hyperloop decision would be comparatively small
<Mat2ch>
Having locks? Nope.
<Althego>
vacuum in itself, actually low vacuum is not high tech
<Althego>
now t ry doing it for thousands of kms
<Mat2ch>
yeah, so what?
<deadmind>
having 100s of kms of highly secure pressure controlled infrastructure is DECIDEDLY high tech compared to existing Victorian-era technology that got some upgrades in the 80s to bring it up to "high speed"
<Mat2ch>
you will have stations on the way, where you can have pumps running, there's enough space for solar panels on the track itself to power it, etc.
<deadmind>
if for no other reason that one has been functional for decades while the other is not even proven to be feasible on paper
<Mat2ch>
uhm, you should really get into the building and maintaining of high speed trains. The rails aren't as easy as you think to build
<Althego>
even transcontinental starship hooper seems to be a better idea
<Althego>
which also has its problems
<Mat2ch>
.oO( ok, now insert a joke about the Deutsche Bahn and functional for decades :D )
<Althego>
at least DB works
<Althego>
mostly
<Althego>
not like máv
<Althego>
which is the hungarian state railways
<deadmind>
Mat2ch: I don't think high speed rail is cheap
<deadmind>
but we are comparing it to hyperloop.
<Mat2ch>
Which is in an early state of development and has several opportunities to make it dirt cheap.
<deadmind>
a proven, reliably replicated system that has high carrying capacity and reliability in return for the relatively high maintenance cost and high upfront cost
<Mat2ch>
Like the tube itself: Can be extruded plastic tubes, which are fused together.
<Mat2ch>
We have so much plastic swimming in the oceans, we could build thousands of kms of tube with it...
<Althego>
it is like prototyping vs production. anybody can make a prototype. bud making it millions of times reliable is completely different. you can make a "hyperloop" for few hundred meters. doing it for few hundred kilometers is different. current experiments didnt even need the vacuum, they were never that fast. so what is the point
<deadmind>
so this isn't high tech, but part of the reason for building it is that maybe it could be cheaper if some current materials science ideas turn out to be feasible? and then immediately scalable to super industrial levels?
<deadmind>
compared to: metallic rails like we used to do in the 1800s, but with tighter tolerances
<Mat2ch>
If you start with that attitude you will never create anything new, because you are just judging by the upfront cost
<Althego>
not everything is possible
<deadmind>
it's not a question of attitude if the reason for dismissing it is technical first and cost second.
<Mat2ch>
But it is possible to build.
<Mat2ch>
The technology is already there
<Mat2ch>
you just have to "plug" the parts together
<Mat2ch>
linear motors are not new, air pumps are not new, building tubes, go ask the Brits about that
<darsie>
"New Austrian tunneling method"
<deadmind>
i'd love it if hyperloop was feasible, and would greatly prefer we build something futuristic like that instead of just shit we've already done, but engineering very specifically should be a land where feasibility should trump how much we like the idea. and the more i think about hyperloop as an engineer, the clearer it becomes that it makes no sense at all. (again, this could change if
<deadmind>
some super high tech materials science breakthrough happens)
<Althego>
caution, you used another 4 letter word
<Althego>
a bit backseat modding here
<deadmind>
lol damn. sorry, i genuinely didn't notice
<deadmind>
not even sure where it is lol
* TheKosmonaut
emerged from a slipspace rupture
<Mat2ch>
deadmind: I'm an engineer myself and I could probably build a functioning hyperloop in my backyard. If I had a backyard big enough.
<darsie>
Subway tubes withstand much more pressure than atmospheric.
* TheKosmonaut
fires a tungsten rod across deadmind's bow
<deadmind>
Mat2ch: i imagine you're not talking about a 1000+ km backyard that has millions of people needing transport services in it.
<deadmind>
otherwise you're talking about building a prototype, not "a hyperloop".
<Althego>
i said up her nose not across it :)
<Althego>
who made this man a gunner?
<TheKosmonaut>
Althego: it isn't my fault ONI didn't give you a proper AI
<Mat2ch>
deadmind: that's just a problem of the diameter of the tube and how many "pods" you send through
<deadmind>
and we're talking about hyperloop as a transit system vs. existing high speed rail. if we're talking unfeasible, but possible, prototypes, we'd be comparing to the 500+ km/h TGV trains from the 90s. (which, by the way, despite being a prototype, actually carried more passengers on those test runs at those speeds than would fit in a theoretical hyperloop capsule :D )
<TheKosmonaut>
You wanna try creating firing solutions in space? Lemme tell you-- it ain't easy
<deadmind>
the diameter of the tube is a MAJOR multiplier of almost every single aspect of the cost though
<Althego>
it was a spaceballs reference
<Mat2ch>
It is? Why?
<deadmind>
making it 10% wider isn't going to make it just 10% more expensive
<TheKosmonaut>
Althego: so far the references have been Elite: Dangerous, Halo, Space Balls
<TheKosmonaut>
Something else in there m sure
<Althego>
i noticed elite ye
<Althego>
i never played halo
<deadmind>
because it completely changes around the equations for how you make that tube strong enough for a given pressure if we're talking about a larger diameter. then you also change all of the support structures for it and their load bearing needs, you need to upgrade your other huge cost center, the active pressure control
<TheKosmonaut>
Halo's main shipboard weapon was the MAC which basically was a giant railgun that shot big tungsten balls
<Althego>
that is how you do it
<Althego>
also in expanse
<TheKosmonaut>
Halo's (human) weapons were pretty good
<packbart>
Luckily this ain't no IETF mailing list where the general rule is "no culturual references!"
<Althego>
hehe
<TheKosmonaut>
Nothing beats Children of a Dead earth
<TheKosmonaut>
My favorite hard sci-fi combat game
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<TheKosmonaut>
Boring as hell to play though
<Mat2ch>
deadmind: your calculation is off. If you increase the diameter the amount of material you need increases linear, but your area increases by the square
<Mat2ch>
and if you take a dirt cheap stuff like extruded plastic tubes, it's not a real factor.
<darsie>
gn
<Mat2ch>
the the pumps, yes you need more or maybe have to run them longer, but with a well designed lock system (which is nothing special today) there's not much air going inside of the tube
<Mat2ch>
you need a bigger linear actor, but that is due to the increased weight of the train
<Mat2ch>
etc.
<Mat2ch>
as long as you avoid building tunnels the costs will be linear with the diameter.
<deadmind>
the amount of material definitely does not scale linearly with the diameter, it's not just about having enough to make "a tube", you're talking about making a tube with the same extreme strength constraints while making the diameter larger. that is definitely going to be more than a simple linear scale-up
<Mat2ch>
the only reason why hyperloop may be a failure is that people will oppose it, because it's new
<deadmind>
i think that is starkly in opposition to what we've seen so far
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<Althego>
people want the hyperloop
<Althego>
even i say it is cool. if it could exist
<Mat2ch>
Huh? I only see people here who don't want it.
<Althego>
the problem is, at least currently not feasible
<deadmind>
it was an idea floated without any sort of serious effort behind it, and was immediately swept into popularity *and has remained there for like 5+ years* without any sort of significant engineering validation of its feasibility
<Althego>
it is like a space elevator. cool on paper, not really doable
<deadmind>
that is what has happened so far
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<deadmind>
if, say, a construction consortium came out with a detailed actual plan to build an actual hyperloop what they would get is an absolutely immense flood of positive hype which is the opposite of what you imply
<deadmind>
compared to: some random construction consortium submits a proposal to create a high speed rail line that accelerates an entire country's climate commitments in a way that can reasonably be expected from day 1 to work out.
<deadmind>
nobody cares. some people complain because it isn't hyperloop.
<deadmind>
also see: Starship, a pie in the sky idea with absolutely no certainty that it will work at all. people freaking love it and are happy that it is happening, even though they probably aren't currently being hurt by the high Mars transit ticket prices
<Althego>
not really pie in the sky. there are many possible issues with it. the raptor, the steel as main material, even the heat shield tiles (i dread those, remember the shuttle)
<Althego>
but maybe it can work
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<Althego>
spacex showed at least once that they can do something that nobody thought to be possible
<Mat2ch>
They use the heat shield tiles only because they are not allowed to use water vapor, because that's a secret tech :P
<Althego>
secret tech lol
<Mat2ch>
no, really, we know about it, but nobody really knows how it works. It's an engineering problem and if SpaceX solves that publicly...
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
"that low pressure is around martian levels, basically vacuum for any normal person" Althego Don't tell elongated muskrat he'll be raving about a martian hyperloop next
<Mat2ch>
well, I have to get to work. Saving one project at a time
<Althego>
luckily i dont
<Althego>
(have to work)
<deadmind>
lucky you
<deadmind>
also me neither, took the week off. forgot i literally am legally required to not go anywhere
<Althego>
hehe
<deadmind>
feels like just a less stressful than usual week at work, a waste of vacation days :(
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
cue cabin fever by the muppets
* marcelinethevampirespleen
found a kerbal named gilly
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
I'm sure I know where to send her
<FLHerne>
You can't be serious and have a cat in your computer.
<FLHerne>
Even if it apparently comes with a dedicated cat bay
<Mostly_Deddly>
Cats make great heatsinks
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<marcelinethevampirespleen>
speaking of heatsinks
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
I think my cat actually did get into the computer area, because the heat sink had 2 inches of the blades obstructed by dust and fur
<umaxtu>
cat fur gets everywhere
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
cat fur is what caused the big bang
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
overheated the last simulation
<marcelinethevampirespleen>
or rather, the computer running the simulation
<umaxtu>
eh, it was GSD fur that killed my last fridge
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<FLHerne>
Are you sure?
<FLHerne>
They're floofy and exothermic
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<umbralraptop>
FLOOF!
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<Althego>
better than foof
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<FLHerne>
;mission add You attempt to use FOOF as a rocket propellant.
<LunchBot>
FLHerne: Added mission: You attempt to use FOOF as a rocket propellant.
<Mat2ch>
!mission
<LunchBot>
Mat2ch: You launch a harpoon-loaded comet lander. Everything goes as planned.
<Althego>
that never happened
<Mat2ch>
Unexpected.
<Althego>
out of that one case at least
<bees>
;outcome add Cat fur is everywhere.
<LunchBot>
bees: Added outcome: Cat fur is everywhere.
<Althego>
how many prefixes fo we have?
<bees>
initial base was scrapped from channel logs with some manual trimming
<Mod9000>
I keep channel logs here: bitcoinshell.mooo.com/users/deddly/?C=M;O=D
<bees>
i'd say 70-90% of original
<Althego>
no, i mean . ! and now ; too?
<FLHerne>
bees: Hm, if your version is scraped, I'll get around to scraping mine in case they don't intersect :p
<FLHerne>
Althego: `;` is to match kmath's version
<FLHerne>
(`.` and `!` were to match different iterations of nextlaunch, when it was just !nextlunch)
<FLHerne>
And I decided it might as well match all of them because why not.
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<Althego>
what, no way
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<Althego>
wait a second, why is there a test? i thought they cancelled two slots
<Althego>
road closed, but who cares, at best it is happening in 4 hours
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<Mat2ch>
Althego: there's a closure scheduled for today
<Althego>
a what about it
<Althego>
i watch that and i time skip after the 7th landing
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<Althego>
maybe after a static fire too
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<Althego>
hmm rocketlab had a closed press conference about the recovery. and a bunch of youtubers were there
<Althego>
asked about the hat lol
<darsie>
In German we eat brooms.
<darsie>
instead of hats.
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