<blowfish>
well, end matters less, it'll determine when you flip from the pitch program to PEG
<blowfish>
but you generally want it to be after you're out of most of the atmosphere
<blowfish>
pitch start and pitch rate will determine how high you loft on the booster pitch phase, which varies from LV to LV
<blowfish>
ideally you want to set them such that when you switch to PEG, there is not pitch up or down
<awang>
Makes sense
<awang>
Guessing start pitch earlier for higher TWR?
<awang>
And higher pitch rate for higher TWR?
<awang>
And is "out of most of the atmosphere" on the order of ~50km, ~100km, or something else?
<awang>
Also, trying to get a lunar impact with 1956-1957 tech is driving me insane
<awang>
I have enough delta-v for direct ascent, but I haven't the faintest idea how to plan such a thing
<awang>
And I can't come up with a rocket that allows for LEO, then TLI
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<awang>
And one of my RD-108s has NaNs for thrust o_O
<awang>
And no TF configs for RD-108s?
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<awang>
It seems to me that the Russian engines are rather badly balanced for early RP-0
<awang>
Er
<awang>
More like their real-life counterparts are waayyyy too heavy for early pads
<borntosleep>
awang the 108 is missing a module section and a {} look at my PR if you want to see whats wrong and fix it
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<blowfish>
awang: yeah, higher TWR = earlier and faster pitch
<blowfish>
out of the atmosphere is fuzzier, the general rule I try to use is <20 kPa Q at switchover
<blowfish>
which is still a lot, but you're done with most of the drag losses at that point
<awang>
borntosleep: That'd explain a lot. I'll try that!
<awang>
blowfish: That sounds like a good rule of thumb. I'll give that a shot
<awang>
Just making sure, PEG assumes continuous burns to orbit?
<awang>
No coasting?
<blowfish>
correct
<awang>
So basically only works with low-thrust long-duration upper stages?
<blowfish>
ehh I'd say it works with all but the super short burning stuff
<awang>
And I think I may have figured out the lunar impact with 1956-1957 tech
<awang>
Requires Russian engines and a level 3 pad, at elast
<awang>
Is it normally 15 minutes to orbit?
<awang>
Or 10?
<blowfish>
I'm pretty sure I could have done that, but I don't think I had the comms
<blowfish>
I've launched 5-6 minutes to orbit with PEG before
<awang>
I think I have the delta-v
<awang>
Just a matter of trying it
<awang>
And can't simulate until the pad finishes upgrading
<blowfish>
I think I could have done it on the 60t pad
<awang>
What level tech?
<blowfish>
1956
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Had to go burst my bubble, did you :P
<blowfish>
I ended up doing it with 1957 or 8 tech because of the comms, but I'm pretty sure I could have done it sooner
<awang>
How'd you manage a precise burn?
<awang>
For TLI?
<blowfish>
oh, comms and tracking station/mission control
<blowfish>
because I definitely needed maneuver nodes
<awang>
What about corrections? Or did you not need any burns after TLI?
<blowfish>
I was fine after TLI. I set up the maneuver node with the exact delta-v of my solid TLI stage and moved it forward/backward in time to ensure impact
<awang>
Ah, right.... I should probably go unlock those kick motors
<blowfish>
I think my TLI stage was the X-242 from the US Rockets pack
<blowfish>
(I didn't install the rest of that but I figured that one would be useful)
<blowfish>
but a smaller probe on Baby Sergeants might also be doable
<awang>
I'll have to try those after unlocking
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<awang>
Did you use a Sputnik core?
<blowfish>
nah, 20 inch xray
<blowfish>
sputnik is heavy
<awang>
Ah
<awang>
Yet another thing I haven't unlocked
<awang>
Finding the right balance of things to unlock is hard
<blowfish>
it is
<awang>
First go for R&D, but then the launch pads don't upgrade fast enough
<awang>
Now try to get launch pads, and can't unlock things fast enough
<awang>
Let's see
<blowfish>
the first orbit contract will pay for a lot
<blowfish>
I had to put a bunch of money into build rate in order to get the 60t pad to unlock by the time I wanted to launch
<awang>
My current ship has a Sputnik core with as many science things I can cram on there
<awang>
Then NTO thrusters for course correction/upper stage orientation
<awang>
Proc avionics
<awang>
AJ-10 for TLI
<awang>
Which means ~1.5 tons to orbit
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<awang>
I think I ended up sinking enough money into build rate to get to 0.5 BP/s
<blowfish>
how much does the LV mass?
<awang>
~150 tons
<blowfish>
ah, makes sense if your TLI stage is AJ-10 powered
<awang>
AJ-10 is too heavy, it seems?
<blowfish>
AJ10-27 or 37?
<awang>
I'm actually not even sure I can get the TLI stage to orbit
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
Hold on
<awang>
It should be whatever the default is
<awang>
Haven't unlocked any upgrades
<awang>
VAB is taking a while to load :(
<blowfish>
ah, not the Aerobee one (27)
<awang>
Ah right
<awang>
It's the "real" AJ-10
<blowfish>
yeah, that is a lot to get into orbit
<awang>
Guess I learned about the wisdom of solid kick motors the hard way
<blowfish>
yeah, for early stuff the solids really outpace pressure fed stages by a lot
<awang>
Yeah, AJ-10-27 appears to be heavier than the 37
<awang>
Well, now I know a bit better what to go for in R&D
<awang>
Just gotta wait for the next time Principia forces me to restart my save
<awang>
Or RSS
<blowfish>
the 20 inch x ray helps a lot
<awang>
That's relatively far down my R&D list
<awang>
Right now it's Satellite Era Electronics Research for solar panels
<awang>
Then 1956-1957 solids
<awang>
Then lunar range comms
<awang>
Then early avionics and probes
<awang>
Which I think contains the 20-inch X-ray probe
<blowfish>
ah yeah, I prioritized Satellite Era Electronics Research and Early Avionics and Probes because it allowed me to do more missions on my first LV (before unlocking 1956 orbital rocketry)
<awang>
That makes sense
<awang>
I tried to unlock things to be able to get as much science out of my first polar probe
<awang>
So guess I went for orbits first
<blowfish>
oh, I did polar orbit before unlocking either of those
<awang>
Didn't get solar panels at first because Sputnik drew so little power and had more than enough battery to cover all the biomes
<awang>
And didn't go for early avionics and probes because... I don't remember
<awang>
Just didn't seem that important to me
<blowfish>
I got solar panels mostly because Early Avionics and Probes depends on Satellite Era Electronics Research
<awang>
Fair enough
<blowfish>
but it did allow me to do the first solar powered satellite contract with the Sputnik core
<awang>
Previous playthroughs I did first solar powered using Sputnik too
<awang>
This time around I was planning on slapping solar panels on a more or less throwaway satellite
<awang>
To fulfill the solar powered and sun-synchronous contracts at teh same time
<blowfish>
ah, I think I did that in my previous playthrough
<blowfish>
in this one I was ready for SSO before the solar panels unlocked
<blowfish>
had to build quite a strange launch vehicle to make it work
<blowfish>
since 300 km and polar is a fair bit of delta-v
<blowfish>
(and not even close to 1956 tech yet, neither solids nor liquids)
<awang>
I've been (ab)using the RD-103 /AJ-10-27s for orbits before 1956 tech
<blowfish>
I did the same but redstone insteand of RD-103
<blowfish>
but I think they're broadly equivalent
<awang>
A-6/A-7 didn't seem as good to me. Lower TWR, and ISP wasn't significantly better
<blowfish>
for the SSO contract I strapped two A-4 boosters to it
<awang>
I guess? I've been tossing around the idea of rebuilding using Redstone motors because I've found engine stats on their own don't give me all the info I need
<awang>
Case in point: Black Arrow
<awang>
Engines aren't fantastic on their own, but you still end up with a sub-20 ton LV
<awang>
Or at least that's the way it seemed to me
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<awang>
did you use an A-6 for the core or A-7?
<awang>
Unless A-7 is 1956 tech
<awang>
I don't remember when it's unlocked
<blowfish>
A-6
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
A-6 plus two A-4
<awang>
I'll have to try that out
<awang>
Compare with 3x RD-103
<blowfish>
hmm, I'm getting A-6 having slightly better TWR than the RD-103
<awang>
Oops
<awang>
Bad math on my part, then
<blowfish>
RD-103 definitely has higher thrust overall though
<awang>
Like at 50% sea-level pressure, is ISP halfway between sea-level ISP and vacuum ISP?
<ProjectThoth>
My work, report all bugs and issues to me.
<awang>
ProjectThoth: Thanks! I'll take a look
<blowfish>
I think yes
<ProjectThoth>
awang: pmfs aren't realistic according to RO, RO makes tanks a little lighter.
<awang>
Oh jeeze
<awang>
This looks complicated
<blowfish>
well, LV design is complicated ain't it?
<awang>
Touche
<awang>
Didn't know what I was expecting, I guess
<awang>
"LV design is probably complicated"
<awang>
"Oh wow, this is way too complicated!"
<ProjectThoth>
awang: Have a look at this album where I basically did what you're trying to do. https://imgur.com/a/YEky1
<awang>
ProjectThoth: I know what I'm reading tonight now
<ProjectThoth>
awang: Hopefully better writing than mine. :P
<awang>
ProjectThoth: Better writing?
<ProjectThoth>
awang: I don't fancy myself as a good writer.
<awang>
Writing seems fine to me so far
<awang>
Although I'm hardly one to talk
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<blowfish>
awang: for what it's worth I just checked and I can get a lot more delta-v out of the RD-103 version
<blowfish>
well, not a lot more, but more, and better liftoff TWR
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<blowfish>
hmm, with that much extra capability, I might be able to do the SSO contract without boosters
<awang>
blowfish: What's your LV design?
<blowfish>
1x A-6 -> 5x AJ10-27 -> 1x AJ10-27
<blowfish>
with the 3rd stage being unguided
<awang>
Oh wow, that's it?
<awang>
Is that under 20 tons?
<blowfish>
nope
<blowfish>
30t
<blowfish>
like I said, had to take a bunch of money from the first orbit contract and put it into build rate to get the pad to unlock in a reasonable amount of time
<blowfish>
I think I cut it from 3Y to 1Y
<awang>
I see
<awang>
Still
<awang>
It's a heck of a lot lighter than my current SSO LV
<awang>
Mine's 3x RD-103, then 5x AJ-10-27, then 1x AJ-10-27
<awang>
~60 tons
<awang>
And it barely makes it
<blowfish>
I overburnt the last two stages by 5s each, that helps a bit
<blowfish>
also avionics, RCS, payload fairing are on the 2nd stage
<awang>
Last two stages are overburnt on my LV too
<blowfish>
I found the 3rd stage was too sensitive to mass for any of that stuff
<awang>
I see
<awang>
That's different from my LV
<awang>
Hmmm
<blowfish>
not that the 2nd stage doesn't suffer for it, it's only giving like 2800 m/s
<blowfish>
but the penalty would be worse on the 3rd stage
<awang>
That's a good point
<awang>
You use the small single-direction thrusters for RCS, right?
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<blowfish>
yes
<blowfish>
that's all you have at that point
<awang>
What'd you use to spin up the last stage?
<blowfish>
RCS
<blowfish>
since it's there already
<awang>
Oh duh
<awang>
Rotated by 90 degrees?
<awang>
I'm dumb
<blowfish>
I think I had 12 thrusters, 8 for attitude control and 4 to ullage the final stage
<blowfish>
or it might have only been 2 for ullage, I forget
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Did you use only the smallest thrusters?
<ProjectThoth>
I've been using Gemini retrorockets for ullage.
<blowfish>
awang: I think I used the 69N ones
<blowfish>
or whatever the exact thrust is
<blowfish>
not the very smallest ones
<blowfish>
I can send you my craft file if you want
<blowfish>
I think it only needs FASA+Ven's+Usual stuff
<soundnfury>
re-entry is beautiful (almost hands-off, but occasional directional instability requires intervention), but landing is impossible :(
<soundnfury>
launch vehicle is an S-3D with two Castor I strap-ons, gets it to orbit with about 50m/s of margin (that engine on the 'plane is an AJ10-42)
<soundnfury>
because I wanted to see just how early in the tech tree you can spessplane
<awang>
blowfish: Did you use maneuver nodes for your SSO contract?
<soundnfury>
at some point I may try scaling it up to a crewed version, as that _may_ be doable before you can unlock capsules(!)
<blowfish>
nope
<awang>
Seems like it'd be somewhat difficult to get the right eccentricity without that
<awang>
soundnfury: Scientists for rockets?
<blowfish>
awang: I *may* have quickloaded once or twice because the window to shut off the engine is pretty small
<blowfish>
but that's human precision, not machine precision
<soundnfury>
awang: hmm?
<awang>
blowfish: Wow, that's crazy
<blowfish>
better than the first weather sat contract though, that has an insane eccentricity requirement
<awang>
Every time I tried something without maneuver nodes I just end up in a super elliptical orbit
<soundnfury>
the first SR was called Hooke 'cos it's short ;)
<awang>
blowfish: I'm not even sure where to point for things like that
<blowfish>
prograde is a good start :D
<awang>
lol
<awang>
Seems to result in me pointing too far up/down by the end of the burn though
<awang>
soundnfury: Hooke was short?
<soundnfury>
and my satellite series are Kepler (scientific Earth sats), Bernoulli (weather sats), Tycho (lunar probes, because Tycho sounds better than Brahe)
<blowfish>
well, I kind of have to estimate where prograde will be at apogee
<awang>
soundnfury: It makes so much sense
<awang>
blowfish: And that something I still can't do :(
<blowfish>
hooke was an ugly mofo, if descriptions are to be believed
<soundnfury>
blowfish: which they probably aren't, at least not entirely
<soundnfury>
but yeah awang the famous Newton quote about "standing on the shoulders of giants" was a short joke directed at Hooke, whom Newton hated
<blowfish>
Cosmos has a fun segment on that whole Newton-Hooke saga
<awang>
Is aiming at the horizon in surface mode a good approximation for the direction orbital prograde should be?
<awang>
TIL "shoulders of giants" isn't as metaphorical as I thought it should be
<blowfish>
I usually just aim a couple of degrees below the horizion
<awang>
Oops
<blowfish>
I don't think surface vs orbit mode should affect where the horizon is
<awang>
Wasn't watching my launch, and an intended 350km apogee became a 700km apogee
<awang>
It certainly does with Principia
<awang>
Hi egg!
<blowfish>
why though?
<awang>
idk
<awang>
I'm probably just not understanding the navball right
<awang>
But the ECI navball looks really weird compared to the ECEF one
<awang>
Also, is the "engine starting" sound really realistic?
<awang>
Sounds like a bomb is going off
<blowfish>
awang: one thing I like about that LV is that I can use PEG for the first two stages. Apogee ends up too high but I can just compensate for that
<awang>
blowfish: The main problem for me is the "just compensate" part
<awang>
And idk if I'm PEGing right
<awang>
Goes from pitch program to unguided gravity turn
<awang>
Haven't actually seen it enter closed loop mode
<blowfish>
yeah, sounds like something might be off
<blowfish>
I'd recommend watching one of NK's most recent playthroughs, he used PEG on those
<awang>
Will do
<awang>
PEG sounds so useful, it's rather disappointing finding that it isn't working as intended for me
<awang>
Also, any way to choose PEG parameters besides guess-and-check?
<blowfish>
not really
<blowfish>
part of why I keep reverts on
<blowfish>
although after enough launches your first guess gets pretty resaonble
<awang>
I keep reverts on too
<awang>
Although that's more to deal with TF ignition failures :(
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<awang>
RP-0 hasn't been balanced with ScrapYard in mind, has it?
<awang>
It cuts build times by quite a bit, but I'm not sure how realistic it is, if it is at all
<awang>
blowfish: Screenshots of differences in Principia's navballs
<blowfish>
oh yeah, I really have no idea what ECI is
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<awang>
Oh wow
<awang>
0.02 eccentricity is a lot more lopsided than I originally thought
<soundnfury>
awang: don't forget that the apsides include the whole Earth radius
<soundnfury>
man, I'm so tempted to build a manned spaceplane in this career...
<soundnfury>
because capsules tech requires an R&D upgrade (it's 31 points) but spaceplane parts come in a 19-point node I could research now
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<awang>
soundnfury: That's a good point. Hadn't thought of that
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<soundnfury>
however, I won't, because getting spaceplanes to work is a _pain_
<soundnfury>
(the other advantage, btw, would be avoiding the "capsules are insanely expensive" bugs)
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<awang>
Is the Pioneer 4 probe supposed to be a science core part?
<awang>
Or is it supposed to have some kind of avionics?
<awang>
And the two Pioneer probe cores don't having matching science core tags
<awang>
The Bluedog version doesn't have the science core tag
<awang>
The RN US Probes one does
<awang>
Also, is a 1.5Mm antenna supposed to be capable of lunar-range comms?
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<egg|afk|egg>
awang: re. the navball, it's documented on the concepts page
<egg|afk|egg>
awang: the ECI navball shows the celestial equator, not the ground
<soundnfury>
so, I ended up succumbing to the temptation, switched to my sandbox save, now trying to build a manned spaceplane with 1959 tech
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<soundnfury>
engine shut down a few seconds early (Agathorn!!!) so now executing a transatlantic abort
<soundnfury>
aaaand the cockpit caught fire.
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<soundnfury>
from orbital speed down to 1km/s, peak 1.213g. Wow.
<soundnfury>
woo! intact ditching!
* soundnfury
has successfully flown a manned orbital spaceplane with 1959 tech (and thus no >25pt nodes)
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<Maxsimal|Work>
soundfury - what wings let you do that? That doesn't sound like it should be achievable with 1959 tech
<awang>
Something about ScrapYard *really* doesn't like the upper stage proc avionics
<awang>
Any vessel with them in the VAB causes exception spam like nothing else
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<Maxsimal|Work>
Did you ask magico about it? I know some day we'll be changing proc avionics a bit, when umm (forgot who wrote it off the top of my head! Sorry) has time again, but it'd be good to know what the issue is
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<awang>
!tell Maxsimal* I haven't asked magico about it. Certainly will soon-ish, though. Think I remember someone mentioning something similar at some point, but can't find any trace of it at the moment for whatever reason
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang>
Are there any surface-attachable decouplers that aren't super expensive or anything?
<awang>
Or even better, is there any way to make the proc stack decoupler surface-attachable?
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<awang>
And is there a way to see a breakdown for rollout costs?
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<wb99999999>
hello
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<Maxsimal>
Cool awang :)
<Qboid>
Maxsimal: awang left a message for you in #RO [11.10.2017 18:38:12]: "I haven't asked magico about it. Certainly will soon-ish, though. Think I remember someone mentioning something similar at some point, but can't find any trace of it at the moment for whatever reason"
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<Maxsimal>
you can fit a small, flat tank to the side of a rocket and then use a standard decoupler if you want
<Maxsimal>
And the rollout cost thing is new, you'd have to ask NathanKell if he can add a breakdown for it, I also agree it could use more info.
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<awang>
ferram4: If I'm getting "[FAR] NaN Prediction Section Error" in my log, what can I do to try to figure out what I'm messing up?
<ferram4>
Well, first you check all the numbers printed after that to see if any of them are NaN
<awang>
There's also some other warnings in the log I just saw
<awang>
FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN
<awang>
at RO-B9ProcWing-Supersonic
<ferram4>
Do you have Trajectories installed?
<awang>
Yes
<ferram4>
This sounds like something going wrong with that then
<awang>
The numbers in the FAR GUI make sense, at least
<awang>
Hmmm
<ferram4>
Prediction Section Errors can only occur in the Editor or if something else is using it. I'm pretty sure that Trajectories does, but something is very strange if it's feeding in Mach = 0 anywhere
<ferram4>
And a vel = 0
<awang>
Just in case, here's a sample of my log
<Maxsimal>
I've seen some weirdness with B9 wings in the dev version
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<gazpachian>
I'm sure people have done better, but still fairly happy with my Y4 Deimos encounter: https://i.imgur.com/HXYPLnh.png
<awang_>
gazpachian: Nice!
<awang_>
What was your LV?
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<awang>
Also, just how common were engine ignition failures?
<awang>
I feel like I'm getting waayyyy too many of them
<awang>
RD-107 failed to ignite 5 times in a row
<gazpachian>
awang, you need to pick and choose your engines! My LV was a GR-1, except the NK-9 has terrible reliability so I used an RD-253 instead on the first stage.
<gazpachian>
btw, this is in 1.1.3 so as fast progression may not be possible
<awang>
gazpachian: No such luxury in the early game, unfortunately :(