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<awang> Yay, finally finished installing everything for 1.3.1
<awang> Now time to sit back and see how long it takes for KSP to crash
<ProjectThoth> awang: Testing a full RO install?
<awang> Yep
<awang> For a very overkill definition of "full"
<awang> 144536 patches applied
<awang> 0 cats eaten
<awang> ....When was catEatenCount add to MM?
<awang> 13GB of swap used
<awang> 15.75GB RAM total
<egg> 0 cats eaten? Ꙩ_ꙩ
<egg> https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/50533-130-module-manager-281-june-29th-2017-with-n-cats-physics/&page=149&tab=comments#comment-2572983
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<awang> Hmmm
<awang> It's actually supposed to indicate something useful
<awang> surprising
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<awang> Uhhh
<awang> I have a negative rollout cost when no parts are in the editor
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<awang> Aaaand first OS crash due to KSP
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<lamont> actual O/S crash is fairly impressive, i haven’t had a game lock up my O/S in ages…
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<awang> I think it's something to do with the graphics driver
<awang> Screen just freezes, but audio continues
<awang> Close the screen, audio turns off, but screen remains on
<awang> Happens most frequently when quitting KSP, when switching from discrete to integrated graphics
<awang> And at least so far it only happens with KSP
<awang> Although the only other thing that uses the dedicated graphics on a regular basis is Chrome
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<awang> Grrr
<awang> I forgot how unreliable the Aerobee is for air starts
<ProjectThoth> I wonder what the most flown rocket in history is.
<ProjectThoth> R7 family has, like, 800 launches, but Aerobee had over a thousand.
<xShadowx> ProjectThoth: bottlerockets :P
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<lamont> you can’t really air start an aerobee can you? the air resistance immediately de-ullages the tank and it vapor locks doesn’t it?
<awang> Wait, really?
<awang> How do real-life aerobees work then?
<lamont> you have to light the sustainer while the booster is still firing, then you decouple after the booster burns out
<lamont> IDK how they work in real life
<ProjectThoth> Oh, hot staging, nice.
<awang> I mean, I am doing that, pretty much
<lamont> if you don’t light the sustainer a second before the booster burns out it tends to not work
<awang> Hmmm
<lamont> i wonder if you don’t drop the booster fast enough if the decelleration due to air resistance also de-ullages the tank
<awang> I've always used MJ's autostage to light immediately after the booster burnt out, and that worked prior to my TF recompiles
<lamont> yeah MJ autostage wil fail all the time
<awang> Hmmm
<lamont> you might get lucky and the RNG lets you fire it sometimes
<awang> Problem: Tiny Tim burns out too fast
<awang> So I can't stage fast enough
<lamont> be quick with the space bar
<awang> I'm literally mashing it
<awang> And time is running at roughly 1/10 to 1/20 speed
<awang> I think there's a staging timeout or something
<lamont> you may be able to stage both the decoupler and the sustainer in the same stage
<awang> That's actually what I've been doing with MJ
<awang> Sustainer and decoupler in same stage
<awang> Autostage with 0s delay immediately after tiny tim burns out
<lamont> don’t do it with MJ though because the booster will have to burn out and you’ll have to do the pre-stage time in MJ
<lamont> hmmm
<awang> I've got a solution or sorts
<awang> Have both the booster and sustainer in the same stage
<awang> But keep the throttle at 0
<awang> Use MJ to autostage, but press z manually to ignite the Aerobee when ready
<awang> Seems to work
<lamont> you shouldn’t have to do that
<awang> Why not?
<lamont> IDK i haven’t done sounding rockets in months. i just remember last time it finally clicked that air resistance was deullaging things, and i paid close attention to what NK was doing in his vids
<Probus> Deullaging lamont?
<lamont> air resistance is decelleration, so it sloshes the liquid forwards and the gas goes to the back
<lamont> IDK if deullaging is a word
<Probus> Sounds like a good one. :)
<awang> Yeah, I haven't done sounding rockets in a long time
<awang> Just upgraded to 1.3.1, though, so figured I'd start a new game
<awang> Didn't realize that air resistance was the culprit
<awang> Actually...
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<awang> Now that I think about it, it's always been TF failures
<awang> Not RF ullage failures
<lamont> ah well TF gonna TF
<awang> Hot-staging does seem to help though
<awang> although I think it may be because the dynamic pressure on the engine is 0 while it's still covered by the decoupler
<awang> I think RF might actually have some kind of delay on ullage
<awang> I've been able to get away with igniting a second or two after burnout on larger rockets
<awang> When I forget to stage them on time
<awang> Or when I'm distracted elsewhere
<awang> There's also the one time I was going for the moon, when ullage was always "very stable" despite being in a parking orbit for a few hours
<lamont> big enough rockets, high enough in the atmosphere
<lamont> that’s a bit odd
<schnobs> awang: used to be that boiloff was used for ullage.
<schnobs> Not only IRL, but realheat as well.
<awang> schnobs: This was with hypergolics, though
<schnobs> Ouch.
<awang> And I didn't think ullage with boiloff was modeled
<awang> TIL
<awang> lamont: Wait, is the delay before unstable ullage kicking in supposed to be there for larger rockets?
<ProjectThoth> I remember the first time I learned about ullage. Had a probe on the way to the Moon, had to spin it end-over-end to get the engine to run.
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<stratochief> lol, yeah I always feel shame when I have to have my stage spin to get ullaged, rather than thrust forward. I've even done that with S-IVb stages because I didn't want to wait for the little ullage packs
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<awang> So
<awang> How does MJ calculate drag?
<awang> Er
<awang> Drag losses
<stratochief> with... code. :P
<awang> Because there's no way my Aerobee suffered 300000 m/s of drag losses
<stratochief> code, with errors.
<stratochief> /assumptions
<awang> :O
<awang> The horror!
<awang> Sarbian: ^?
<awang> This is with FAR installed, if that helps
<stratochief> I mean, the code is publicly available, if you want to mtake a closer look :P
<awang> True, but I'm not nearly as familiar with the codebase, so something can easily escape my eye
<awang> I see this:
<awang> dragLosses += vesselState.deltaT * vesselState.drag;
<awang> Which works unit-wise
<awang> But idk where vesselState is modified
<awang> Or if it's a built-in KSP class
<awang> Or if those are the right values to read
<awang> Or everything
<stratochief> lol., well, you've done more than the avg person asking a question :)
<stratochief> Sarbian: might answer sometime. IIRC he is in france
<awang> Ah
<awang> In the land of the eg
<awang> *egg
<awang> Yay for overachieving :D
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<lamont> awang: the drag calculations in MJ are often wonky — usually zero though
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<lamont> http://www.spacex.com/webcast in 54 mins
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<lamont> heh spacex’s live stream just suffered a RUD
<Sarbian> awang: badly ? ;)
<lamont> i keep hearing this guy saying “Creosote-5A”
<lamont> T-3min
<awang> Sarbian: :(
<Sarbian> awang: I guess you have FAR ? And MJ does not interact with FAR for that
<awang> Yep, got FAR
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> Er, crap
<awang> brb
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<lamont> sarbian: but sometimes with FAR+MJ i do get accurate-looking drag loss numbers
<Sarbian> FAR may update a few things that MJ then uses. I don't really remember...
<lamont> it seems to do it highly inconsistently
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<awang> Uh
<awang> Sarbian: Is the MJ .sln file out of date?
<Sarbian> most likely
<awang> :(
<awang> Only build using the Makefile, then?
<Sarbian> Which branch are you on ?
<awang> dev
<awang> Was hoping to try to hack FAR drag calculations in
<awang> Woah
<awang> Thanks!
<awang> What happened to the old MJ/FAR compat thing?
<Sarbian> it s not needed anymore for the stuff it was doing
<awang> Ah
<awang> Adding FAR support isn't easy, is it :(
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<awang> Why is liftUp the dot product of force and the "up" vector
<awang> ?
<Sarbian> Because copy/paste ? ;)
<Sarbian> or not, let me re read it
<Sarbian> no, that looks ok. What is disturbing you about it awang ?
<awang> Wondering why dragUp was Vector3d.Dot(pureDragV, up), while liftUp was Vector3d.Dot(force, up)
<awang> Would have expected the latter to be Vector3d.Dot(pureLiftV, up)
<awang> Since it's the component of lift in the up direction
<Sarbian> indeed.
<Sarbian> I checked, it s what NK wrote :D
<Sarbian> I am sure there is something logical in there but it s far too late for me to see it
<Sarbian> I ll sleep on it
<awang> #blameKell
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<soundnfury> awang: what happened to Blaming Thande?
<awang> soundnfury: Who?
* soundnfury mumbles something about alternate history community
* awang is quite confused
<soundnfury> n.b.: I don't like AH.com any more because they banned me for (on-topically) quoting Thomas Sowell
<awang> Uh...
<awang> Interesting
<soundnfury> (at some point I'll find somewhere else to post https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/deadman-switch-wi-supermarine-type-317-not-cancelled.386814/ and finish writing it)
<awang> Sarbian: Just making sure, pureLift/pureDrag are the lift/drag values from stock? From summing per-part drag/lift?
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<awang> Sarbian: I guess a better question is "What is the intended difference between drag/lift and pureDrag/pureLift?"
<awang> I'm setting them to be equal after getting drag/lift from FAR, but I'm betting that I'll break something without realizing it
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