<Rockwell>
I got a question about remote tech. Can I set up an Earth relay to fill in communication gaps for low altitude flights with just omni antennas or do relay sats need to have directional dishes?
<wb99999999>
just omni is good
<wb99999999>
in RT there's no discrimination on function
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<wb99999999>
so did spacex release anything new about the Raptors?
<ProjectThoth>
Downgraded thrust, I think.'
<ProjectThoth>
I still feel point-to-point is stupid af.
<wb99999999>
what do you mean by ptp?
<ProjectThoth>
The big reveal for funding ITS/BFR/??? is point-to-point suborbital transport.
<wb99999999>
lol...let me check
<wb99999999>
okay
<wb99999999>
that's fucking stupid
<wb99999999>
but if they actually made it, I'm so riding on it
<ProjectThoth>
Right?
<wb99999999>
but it is still fucking stupid
<ProjectThoth>
It's literally Concorde, version 2.
<wb99999999>
that's not how you use an interplanetary rocket
<wb99999999>
it's a disgrace
<ProjectThoth>
You know how I'd raise money for colonization?
<ProjectThoth>
I'd sell the whole damn rocket.
<ProjectThoth>
Like a plane.
<wb99999999>
I think the technology is too much of an importance to be sold globally
<ProjectThoth>
Oh, yeah, ITAR's a bitch.
<ProjectThoth>
But I also wouldn't be selling a 150 ton to LEO monster.
<wb99999999>
it wouldn't be profitable
<wb99999999>
I mean the ptp transport thing
<wb99999999>
it's a massive waste of fuel
<ProjectThoth>
PTP is a gigantic waste of resources.
<wb99999999>
if you're not going to space then rocket is not a good idea
<blowfish>
new raptors have a lower chamber pressure, I found that interesting
<blowfish>
no longer the highest ever
<ProjectThoth>
We should be focusing on developing a space economy, not a goddamn joyride.
<wb99999999>
we should be building an orbital ring
<wb99999999>
seriously
<wb99999999>
it's doable with current tech
<wb99999999>
and can help colonize the entire LEO
<blowfish>
I wonder if they could even get the regulatory clearance to do suborbital transport
<ProjectThoth>
I just want a damn economy.
<ProjectThoth>
blowfish: You think the TSA is bad *now*...
<blowfish>
heh yeah
<blowfish>
but even ignoring the human element
<blowfish>
traditionally if a failure at any point in the flight could cause debris to land on a populated area, you don't do it
<ProjectThoth>
The noise alone is a huge issue... wait, just like Concorde.
<wb99999999>
you know...maybe China will actually build a working Scramjet
<wb99999999>
and then SpacecX doing its suborbital human hauling would be so regretted
<blowfish>
ehh, last I heard the only active scramjet testing was in the US
<wb99999999>
there
<wb99999999>
sorry pressed enter
<wb99999999>
China is very secret about everything as you know
<ProjectThoth>
SpaceX is making a huge gamble with this thing, and I'm really hesitant to say it's going to pay off.
<wb99999999>
but there are some sources stating a SSTO spaceplane is on the list
<wb99999999>
I'm just saying while spaceX is off doing stupid thing this might happen
<blowfish>
also
<blowfish>
there's nothing magical about scramjets
<blowfish>
ramjets have been operating for years and no one has found a way to make them useful for anything but missiles
<ProjectThoth>
The problem is that, unless you're a super important businessman (or ambassador, maybe), nobody really wants to go places faster.
<ProjectThoth>
They want to go places *cheaper*.
<wb99999999>
exactly
<blowfish>
yeah, even normal SST is basically dead at this point in time
<ProjectThoth>
Long story short, the market is so niche that even if you have a point-to-point vehicle that equals the price of airline tickets, you're going to wind up being out-competed by United Airlines flying a super cheapy Airbus.
<wb99999999>
Projectthoth if you're interested in an orbital economy
<wb99999999>
definitely check out orbital ring concept
<wb99999999>
I have great faith in it
<ProjectThoth>
Meh, megastructures don't appeal to me.
<ProjectThoth>
Gotta think short-term. The only economic drive for widespread space exploration is asteroid mining.
<wb99999999>
you know...if they're going to sell ticket for a suborbital rocket ride
<wb99999999>
why not just make it orbital and get a bunch of space tourism going
<ProjectThoth>
Even then, I don't have much faith in it.
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Basically, yes.
<wb99999999>
I mean they think it is cheap enough for your common rich people right?
<wb99999999>
then bring them to orbit and kick start a new industry
<ProjectThoth>
So my position on developing a space economy isn't to provide a complete guide and design around a destination (like what Musk is doing with Mars), it's to merely provide a tool that people can use as they see fit.
<ProjectThoth>
Hence, the only reasonable strategy is to sell rockets.
<wb99999999>
I can see your point
<wb99999999>
so you want to make many more countries space fairing
<ProjectThoth>
At the end of the day, BFR is a one-trick pony, and it's only really good at BLEO stuff. Any adaptations to do otherwise are half-assed and an incredibly bad business plan.
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: I want anyone with $60 million to be able to be space-fairing.
<wb99999999>
and they'll boost the demand of space stuff
<ProjectThoth>
Exactly.
<wb99999999>
very appealing indeed
<ProjectThoth>
People are smart. They'll will figure out what to do, given the right tools. I'd like to give them those tools.
<wb99999999>
but as somebody once said
<wb99999999>
unarmed spaceship is an oxymoron
<wb99999999>
you're basically selling weapons at that point
<ProjectThoth>
Sure, there's a tremendous issue to get over with that.
<ProjectThoth>
But a really determined person could also turn a plane into a weapon, if they wanted to.
<wb99999999>
so is a stick
<wb99999999>
for your scheme to work we'll have to wait until our technology has advanced enough to solve some scarcity
<ProjectThoth>
Basically anything *can* be weaponized, but because the rocket is so deeply rooted in its wartime origins, the trick is to get the general public to separate the two in their minds, or at least care a little less.
<wb99999999>
so that people stop thinking about killing each others for resource so much
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: That is way too utopian for my interests.
<wb99999999>
the problem of rocket tech is it is almost naturally destructive
<wb99999999>
just by the amount of energy it carries
<ProjectThoth>
I believe that a fully commercialized rocket would have a limited range for many years (probably not allowed to be sold outside of the US), and what's going to happen is other countries are going to pick up the slack.
<ProjectThoth>
Again, I feel the problem is entirely a matter of framing.
<ProjectThoth>
If planes started out as flying bombs, we'd have an issue with them.
<wb99999999>
yes, a really determined person can turn a plane to a weapon
<wb99999999>
but you don't have to be very determined at all to turn a rocket to a weapon
<ProjectThoth>
In fact, I'd say that a weaponized plane is more dangerous than a weaponized rocket.
<wb99999999>
just presenting my point here. you do have a point too.
<wb99999999>
also it is easy to stop a plane, but hard to stop a rocket
<ProjectThoth>
We do have tremendous resources devoted towards destroying actual weaponized rockets, it'd be a pretty simple matter to expand that to handle any launch vehicle that's been hijacked or otherwise used for malicious purposes.
<wb99999999>
I think it is very much like selling a gun
<ProjectThoth>
Again, it's probably a lot easier to stop a rocket than it is to stop a plane (case in point: 9/11).
<wb99999999>
if the U.S. managed to not devolve into a warzone there's probably ways to make a commercially available rocket safe enough
<wb99999999>
However just like most countries in the world prohibit gun selling...
<wb99999999>
and even civilian gun owning at all
<wb99999999>
there's a long way to make it work
<ProjectThoth>
I think once the space economy picks up, people are more willing to nudge moral hangups out of the way.
<wb99999999>
just for example, still using my home land China.
<wb99999999>
what if you made it work and then Chinese government goes "no we don't allow private rocket on our soil"
<ProjectThoth>
They'll probably develop their own indigenous vehicle.
<wb99999999>
heck they can do this for long enough to ruin entire industry that is million times less destructive
<wb99999999>
they've done this to game consoles out of everything
<ProjectThoth>
It doesn't have to be successful everywhere, it just has to be successful somewhere.
<wb99999999>
and successfully stalled indigenous game development for 10 years
<wb99999999>
now most Chinese developers produce trash PC titles
<wb99999999>
I mean REALLY trashy ones
<wb99999999>
cheap WOW knock off
<wb99999999>
FTP garbage
<ProjectThoth>
There's less at stake with game development.
<ProjectThoth>
I mean, China currently has a monopoly on rare-earths.
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<wb99999999>
true, but the point is if a government really don't want something to happen (like privatized rocket), they'll kill it hard
<ProjectThoth>
If that goes away, or is at least at risk of going away due to a space economy, they're going to do everything they can to capture that.
<wb99999999>
and I can see privatized rocket being undesirable for a lot of reasons
<ProjectThoth>
There's a huge economic motivation here, and yes it's speculative, but I guarantee that it's going to shape rocket policy for the next half-century.
<wb99999999>
good thing we both have a lot of life left to see what turns out isn't it?
<ProjectThoth>
Yup.
<ProjectThoth>
It's exciting times, no matter what you frame it as, and I'd be an idiot to not at least try to get in on it.
<wb99999999>
sometimes I just hope orbital tourism became affordable and everybody involved in RO dev go throw a big space party
<wb99999999>
then we can burst into tears about how we played games about going to space and now are in space
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Should start a pool on who the first RO dev/community member to reach space is gonna be.
<wb99999999>
probably some very rich guy or an ex-military pilot or something
<ProjectThoth>
Well, damned if I don't try to be first. :P
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<Rockwell>
Do you guys run KSP in dx9 or dx11?
<blowfish>
DX11
<Rockwell>
why?
<Rockwell>
do you get better performance?
<blowfish>
my recollection is that it uses less memory
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<BadInternetCo>
Howdy
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<BadRocketsCo>
Hmm
<BadRocketsCo>
The Thor launches are a bit concerning
<BadRocketsCo>
I get like 12g from the first stage during the final 10s of the burn
<BadRocketsCo>
Is that realistic?
<BadRocketsCo>
Although, I do have a really light payload
<BadRocketsCo>
At 87kg
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<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy
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