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<wb99999999>
gosh, Delta 2 is very hard to fly right
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<wb99999999>
too many boosters and too many stages
<ProjectThoth>
moar boostarz
<wb99999999>
more UNDERPOWERED boosters
<UmbralRaptor>
The Delta family is proof that reality is unrealistic.
<ProjectThoth>
I can't help but be at least a little charmed by it.
<wb99999999>
i'd like to hear about your opinion on the Delta 3
<UmbralRaptor>
I'm sad that it failed so much.
<UmbralRaptor>
Also, it's part of the argument that rockets are in fact legos.
<wb99999999>
I like the fact that it won't launch with anything but 9 boosters
<wb99999999>
NINE boosters, no less
<UmbralRaptor>
Also, all hail the Centaur.
<ProjectThoth>
Delta III was sweet.
<ProjectThoth>
I still have yet to figure out if there's a market for Delta II.
<ProjectThoth>
One of my harebrained schemes involves a positive on that front. :P
<UmbralRaptor>
To be fair, boosters were mandatory for STS and Titan IV, also.
<wb99999999>
I'd say there are not a lot for it
<wb99999999>
Titan IV is another proof for the lego argument
<ProjectThoth>
"Rockets aren't Lego" is the exception, not the rule. :P
<UmbralRaptor>
Yeah, though it's a boring proof because the Titan III was designed to be modular.
<ProjectThoth>
Dial-a-rocket is a pretty good strategy for market capture.
<UmbralRaptor>
The Delta II was I thought more like a Saturn I hack job.
<wb99999999>
It's just a Thor you know
<wb99999999>
Extra Extended Long Tank Thor to be exact
<UmbralRaptor>
heh
<wb99999999>
oh there's a better one
<ferram4>
wb99999999, are you only ground lighting 6 of the boosters and airlighting the rest after the first 6 burn out?
<wb99999999>
yes
<wb99999999>
I think this is the standard procedure
<ferram4>
Well. Then fly more aggressively.
<wb99999999>
I figured that I shouldn't pitch too much during the booster phase
<wb99999999>
the solids aren't as powerful as I expected
<ferram4>
While you've still got the ground-lit boosters, don't pitch too much. On the air-lit boosters though, it should probably be able to go mostly sideways and get into space at ~200 km
<wb99999999>
you're absolutely right ferram
<wb99999999>
what I often end up doing is pitch too much with the first 6 boosters
<wb99999999>
because I'm used to Atlas V...
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<ProjectThoth>
Delta II has a much more vertical launch profile, then?
<ferram4>
Based on what I've seen, yeah. On-board cameras have it pitching a lot right after the 6 boosters drop.
<ferram4>
Granted, it's already probably about 30-45 degrees over by that point, but it's difficult to judge from an onboard camera.
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<wb99999999>
3 quarter full sustainer + 3 air lit solids are a lot of mass
<wb99999999>
so really shouldn't pitch too much at first
<ProjectThoth>
Think a uni could afford to buy up an AJ-26?
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<wb99999999>
an AJ-26 for what?
<ProjectThoth>
The hell of it.
<wb99999999>
idk man
<wb99999999>
rocket engines are crazy expensive if there's anything to take away from all my reading about aerospace
<UmbralRaptor>
Considering how many unis will stick you with a C2D for a computer, I doubt it.
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<ProjectThoth>
Well, I guess it's still cheaper than full-on LV development, clean-sheet.
<wb99999999>
btw there's a better one than EELT Thor
<wb99999999>
behold the Strengthened Extra Extended Long Tank Thor
<ProjectThoth>
SEELTT
<wb99999999>
for Delta 3
<wb99999999>
This is elementary school level naming lol
<ProjectThoth>
Anyone tried pop-up stages in RO?
<wb99999999>
what is it?
<ProjectThoth>
S1 has a low delta-v and does a vertical ascent. S2 does a mostly horizontal ascent.
<awang>
ProjectThoth: Doesn't that usually happen with super-long-burning S2s?
<wb99999999>
not gonna be very efficient if you ask me
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: It's not, but it's easier for reuse. :P
<awang>
Or something like that
<wb99999999>
if your S1 has anything more than 1.5km/s, you are going side way
<wb99999999>
because by the end of this stage you're at like 60 to 70 km altitude at least
<wb99999999>
no point not going side way
<awang>
Depends on your S1 TWR too, right?
<wb99999999>
yes, but a slow and heavy S1 defeat the purpose further
<wb99999999>
why don't then reduce the mass of the S2 and have S1 do more of the leg work
<wb99999999>
since you're lifting that much weight anyway
<wb99999999>
and it's literally lifting weight (again gravity)
<wb99999999>
against gravity*
<ProjectThoth>
but reuse tho
<blowfish>
lots of steering losses since you're not burning prograde
<Bornholio>
pair of gamma8 side boosters, parachute them off, and use sustainers on the main stage that also parachutes off, them low twr upper
<ProjectThoth>
Again, it's not really efficient, but there's a nice bonus of dropping S1 pretty close to a good recovery zone.
<wb99999999>
at least half of the point of a first stage is to lift the rest of the LV to a high enough altitude AND a fast enough velocity so the upperstages don't have to deal with gravity that much
<wb99999999>
I'd say if you REALLY wanted to reuse just do the reverse shuttle thing
<wb99999999>
have a rocket plane carry the upper stage and fly back
<Bornholio>
the point of a pop up is to get to High isp engines with enough TWR, that won't have enough twr to lift off if they are ASL
<blowfish>
ProjectThoth: the other problem is that if you're making S1 smaller and S2 bigger, you're reducing the value of recovery
<ProjectThoth>
Not if you plan on bringing both back.
<blowfish>
sure, but S2 recovery is the hard part
<blowfish>
if you can recover something from orbit, chances are you can recover something from a suborbital arc
<ProjectThoth>
Problem is RTLS.
<ProjectThoth>
And any other recovery method is s u p e r s l o w.
<blowfish>
and? How much value is there in fast turnaround?
<wb99999999>
conversely you can have a very large winged first stage
<blowfish>
right, or boost back
<wb99999999>
launch in to near orbital velocity
<wb99999999>
and bounce the bugger all the way back in upper atmosphere
<ProjectThoth>
blowfish: I think there's value in fast turnaround. Keeps the fleet size small.
<wb99999999>
may be a jet or two for final approach
<blowfish>
ProjectThoth: my point is how much time is bringing it back to the launch site vs verifying it still works, making any repairs, integrating the 2nd stage and payload, and setting it up to launch again
<ProjectThoth>
blowfish: Even a week is enough to make a difference, imo.
<blowfish>
at the current launch rate a week doesn't seem like a whole lot
<ProjectThoth>
If it takes 5 weeks to go through SF and integration, then you're talking about being able to squeeze in an additional 3 launches across the year.
<ProjectThoth>
(assuming you save a week on recovery).
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<ProjectThoth>
Plus, there's something to be said for near-LON capability.
<blowfish>
ehh, depends on how much you spend on making the first stage able to return to the launch site immediately
<blowfish>
and there's only so much pressure you can put on the 2nd stage
<blowfish>
F9 really struggles with some of those GTO missions
<ProjectThoth>
F9 should really have a third stage for GTO.
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<awang>
\o
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<awang>
Just curious, why is the "Starting Parts" R&D node necessary? Why not just put the parts into the starting node?
<Bornholio>
tooling costs when they get included, plus lets you not have those parts in VAB if you don't want to see them, and have them in your training list
<Bornholio>
really helps clean up the VAB to not have all the extra stuff i don't use
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<awang>
Ah
<awang>
No entry costs for starting parts?
<awang>
I don't hide parts that I haven't bought, so it didn't make a difference for me
<awang>
Also, do RealChutes need control to deploy?
<awang>
Parachutes on my Tiny Tim don't seem to be deploying right
<wb99999999>
I figure after ULA they'd just use a Atlas V 401
<blowfish>
probably yeah
<blowfish>
since Atlas V is a lot cheaper
<wb99999999>
and has a bit more power for some reason...
<wb99999999>
guess Russian engines help after all
<wb99999999>
It often amuses me reading the earlier journals and articles about the Atlas V with writers claiming the Russian engines are of a "brute force approach"
<wb99999999>
Well it's more powerful, more efficient, cheaper AND more reliable, how's that "brute force"?
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<awang>
!tell NathanKell* Yeah, something's definitely up with my KCT settings. New save, upgrade VAB rate 1 -> 0.07875 BP/s
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang>
!tell NathanKell* And all my facilities are fully upgraded. And upgrading science goes from 11.875 sci/yr to 12
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang>
!tell NathanKell* And these rates are actually being used in-game; a 1-point R&D node unlocks in 30 days instead of 74
<Qboid>
awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<awang>
Oh hey, Ignition! was linked on HN
<ProjectThoth>
:D
<ProjectThoth>
awang: My university owns the publishing rights!
<soundnfury>
ProjectThoth: then get them to *fscking* reprint the thing
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: I've considered lobbying someone to do it.
<ProjectThoth>
I kinda found out too late about that.
<ProjectThoth>
*to do it last year
<ProjectThoth>
So is now the time that I get to brag about holding a copy?
* soundnfury
aims the missiles at ProjectThoth
<soundnfury>
Just try it, sonny
<ProjectThoth>
I rubbed my hands all over the endpapers.
<ProjectThoth>
I know what an authentic copy of Ignition! *smells* like.
<ProjectThoth>
I also have a print edition sitting about five feet away from me, thanks to a very limited run and a friend of a friend.
<ProjectThoth>
I can literally get my hands on no fewer than six copies at one time.
<soundnfury>
hey UmbralRaptor, can I borrow some of your ??
<ProjectThoth>
I can't handle all of these copies of Ignition! dot meme
<ProjectThoth>
Actually, yeah, I should go visit the library over the weekend (next) and see if I can get some people interested in doing a limited run.
<soundnfury>
(personally I don't actually care about physical copies because I have enough clutter as it is. But I know a lot of people do.)
<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: The book has the same value as a year's worth of tuition, iirc.
<soundnfury>
no, it has the same _marginal_ value (and hence price)
<ProjectThoth>
I took an econ class once, I swear. :P
<soundnfury>
I didn't :P
<soundnfury>
(I just read David Friedman's books instead.)
<soundnfury>
econ is a branch of maths, anyway
<soundnfury>
it's the continuum limit of game theory
<ProjectThoth>
That's probably a way better experience.
<soundnfury>
heh, true
<soundnfury>
Friedman is a very entertaining writer
<soundnfury>
not quite at John Clark levels, but then he doesn't have quite the same material to work with xD
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<Maxsimal>
Pap: I kinda wish we could update to the next patch as soon as it comes out. A contract-building GUI sounds so nice right now
<Qboid>
Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [02.09.2017 06:01:48]: "back! How's things?"
<Pap>
I hear ya Maxsimal, but from what I understand about the new editor (and I could be wrong), it isn't going to allow contract creation, more similar to scenario creation.
<Maxsimal>
Pap: Then they should just add the ability to get money/science/fame from a scenario :P Then it's a contract.
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<awang>
Is there anything that can/should be done about being able to rearrange the order KCT tech nodes are researched in?
<borntosleep>
thats hard to do, doubt magico13 wants to do it. NathanKell forked it for dev so maybe he will takle it. They need to be able to be rearranged. But its annoying you can put prereq's infront of their requisites. If anything thats what needs the work
<borntosleep>
well that and display issues :P
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<awang>
Yeah, it's the mixing up of dependencies that sort of bothers me
<awang>
I was afraid that it wouldn't be easy
<awang>
Since you'd need to carry around the dependency information somehow
<darsie>
oh my FSM, this crewed lunar orbit mission was so tight. The impulse from separations was relevant, but I still missed Earth, so I used the capsules RCS to lower my perigee. But I had separated from my solar cells so I ran out of electricity and was worried if Pyotr could deploy the chute. He could :))).
<darsie>
Also had to reload a few times till I got the attitude right at the Moon for Earth reentry.
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<darsie>
looks like persistant rotation disables attitude hold settings during warp and stops rotation.
<wb99999999>
any experts on launch windows planning?
<darsie>
I eyeball them.
<darsie>
And use target markers.
<wb99999999>
I am looking for a way to get my argument of AN/DN right so I can do a high-latitude moon transfer
<wb99999999>
let's see if I can smoke out ferram or Nathan...
<Bornholio>
go polar
<Bornholio>
unless you are doing free return
<wb99999999>
polar???
<soundnfury>
yeah, I usually launch to polar, plane about 50° ahead of the Moon
<darsie>
Can the free return be 0 m/s free?
<wb99999999>
yes, in theory
<soundnfury>
darsie: yes, but not at high inclinations
<darsie>
Which inclination?
<soundnfury>
inclination to the lunar plane
<wb99999999>
right...polar is easy to get right
<wb99999999>
it's just the lack of visual aid in the game...
<wb99999999>
I know what I'm looking for
<soundnfury>
has to be less than maybe threeish degrees (dunno exactly) for a free-return to be able to still hit Earth
<Bornholio>
just adjust your timing in the node editor until you get intercept of some kind and then tune out +dV prograde a bit, then adjust it in to the target PE
<wb99999999>
5 deg South of the Equator for AN or 5 deg North for DN
<wb99999999>
but there's just nothing to help me see it
<soundnfury>
wb99999999: I do it by going to the tracking station, orienting for a top-down view of the moon's orbit, rotate until the moon is at about two-o'clock
<wb99999999>
I'm trying to figure out a way to launch from any site and still get it right in 1 go
<soundnfury>
then warp until my launch site is at either the top or the bottom of its motion
<soundnfury>
then it's time to launch
<Bornholio>
bah timing
<wb99999999>
yeah
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<wb99999999>
I mean as I said, I know what I am looking for
<Bornholio>
grog launch to polar, ram it in
<wb99999999>
I need to phase until the parking orbit's AN line up with the moon
<wb99999999>
and I also know where the AN would be, 5 deg North or South of the DN or AN
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<wb99999999>
but then there's nothing to tell me where is 5 degree...
<wb99999999>
to little markers and grids!
<soundnfury>
not sure where this 5° figure comes from
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<wb99999999>
Moon's inclination
<Bornholio>
cheat a sat into 90deg incl all others 0's LEO, then one at lunar orbit and one all 0's
<soundnfury>
are you using principia or something?
<wb99999999>
no, but it doesn't matter really
<wb99999999>
the mechanics are in common
<soundnfury>
in RSS the Moon's inclination is 28.3° because of Earth's axial tilt
<soundnfury>
(or rather, because Earth *doesn't* have tilt in KSP, so all orbits have to be tilted instead)
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<soundnfury>
you'd only get the 5° figure in some kind of ecliptic co-ordinate system, and I don't know any mods (that aren't Principia) that would give you that
<egg|z|egg>
and even Principia sets the reference plane to the equator of the main body of the moment
<wb99999999>
I am too bad at this to be able to explain it clearly
<egg|z|egg>
i.e. unless you're near the moon or in solar orbit or somesuch the reference plane will be the ICRF equator
<soundnfury>
wb99999999: if what you need is just lots of numbers so you don't have to eyeball a thing, KER (or MJ if you're that way inclined) (or konrad if you're smart like me)
<wb99999999>
if you launch a random probe into leo form a non-equatorial site when you're in the wrong phase to transfer to the moon, you can see what I am talking about
<wb99999999>
target the moon and see where AN/DN is
<soundnfury>
so you're launching East from a launch site that's not in the plane of the Moon?
<wb99999999>
yes
<wb99999999>
and yes you can still transfer to the moon
<soundnfury>
(equatorial isn't relevant: an equatorial orbit is _also_ inclined to the lunar plane)
<wb99999999>
by lining up your nodes
<wb99999999>
so you burn at one node and arrive at the other node
<soundnfury>
Yes. Well, you want the Moon to be about 50° behind the node when you launch
<soundnfury>
(exact angle will depend on how fast a transfer you do)
<wb99999999>
is this regardless of your staring latitude?
<wb99999999>
wait
<wb99999999>
oh I see
* egg|z|egg
stares at 47 deg N
<wb99999999>
yes, I know how much moon should be behind
<soundnfury>
yes, because it's "angle the moon will move through in half a transfer orbit"
<soundnfury>
egg|z|egg: xD we were all thinking it
<wb99999999>
but what I don't know is how to wait the right amount of time for the Earth to rotate
<wb99999999>
so when I launch into LEO, my nodes are in the right place
<wb99999999>
pointing at the moon's future location, that is
<soundnfury>
well, the nodes should display while you're still on the ground
<wb99999999>
it...doesn't...
<soundnfury>
(because you have some Eastward velocity from rotation)
<soundnfury>
target the Moon, go into map view...
<egg|z|egg>
I'd say use Principia's reference frames but that might not actually all that helpful before being in orbit
<egg|z|egg>
(still, there's probably a reference frame in which the thing you seek is invariant :-p)
<soundnfury>
and you should have two node markers deep inside the Earth, and two dotted lines from those markers out to the Moon's orbit
<egg|z|egg>
moon-centred Earth-aligned would be a good bet
<wb99999999>
deep inside the Earth huh
<wb99999999>
this is getting very contrived...
<soundnfury>
yes, because your perigee is approximately -Re
<wb99999999>
I can't see it, but I totally accept the fact that it is there
<soundnfury>
because your orbital-frame velocity is only a couple hundred m/s
<wb99999999>
but this doesn't help much...
<soundnfury>
are the dotted lines not there?
<wb99999999>
I can't even zoom in enough
<soundnfury>
also, you can see it if you get the PlanetariumCamera inside the Earth
<soundnfury>
at least I think so
<soundnfury>
I can't exactly fire up the game to check, as I still don't have a hard drive
<wb99999999>
so yeah...I'll try dig MJ to find some data related to this
<wb99999999>
so I can do away with eyeballing and go with elegant math
<wb99999999>
there's gotta be a number or two that's about this
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<soundnfury>
yeah you want your LAN and the moon's longitude (in the same frame)
<soundnfury>
what's your launch site, by the way?
<wb99999999>
currently I'm just doing it with Cape
<wb99999999>
I know I can just insert co-plane
<wb99999999>
but I'm trying to figure out this nice trick so I don't have to do the co-plane thing anymore
<wb99999999>
and also give me some flexibility in launch time
<soundnfury>
you might want to look into konrad; you may be able to create a new console that does the calculations you need
<soundnfury>
(konrad has a nice little library of orbit-wrangling code)
<wb99999999>
I'll have a look
<wb99999999>
thx
<wb99999999>
the way KSP deal with inclination is just mind-boggling
<soundnfury>
how so?
<soundnfury>
I know the way RSS introduces axial tilt is confusing, but that's not KSP's doing (though it's KSP's fault for not supporting axial tilt directly)
<wb99999999>
basically what you said
<Rokker>
soundnfury: a lot of stuff is KSPs fault
<soundnfury>
Rokker: well yes. Almost everything in fact.
<wb99999999>
oh I think I found a semi-reliable way to time my launch now
<soundnfury>
KSP caused the Challenger disaster, and the hurricane in Texas, and also Hitler. All KSP's fault.
<wb99999999>
just write down the right phase angle once I got it right
<wb99999999>
Earth doesn't deform that much, so
<darsie>
Did KSP cause the big bang?
<soundnfury>
darsie: yeah, it was when the previous universe got krakened
<wb99999999>
yes
<wb99999999>
for a node to node TLI, a phase angle of 250 degrees almost always works regardless of the starting latitude
<wb99999999>
it was this simple...
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<Pap>
Bornholio: I think the Moon Biomes are done. As long as someone has re-generated the DLL, RSS should be able to be released
<Bornholio>
want a thrid round of testing before calling it good?
<Bornholio>
third
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<Theysen>
Grab it while it's hot :) https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/153511-122-real-solar-system-visual-enhancements-v122-rc3-2017-02-26/&page=16&tab=comments#comment-3163988
<Bornholio>
yeah solving that scatterer problem :)
<Bornholio>
Theysen can you generate a 1.3 version of RSS for me to do a initial test on?
<Theysen>
Bornholio, what do you need me to do?
<Bornholio>
needs a .dll run for 1.3. Unfortunately thats out of my wheel house
<Theysen>
I never built any mod for KSP
<Theysen>
<- config boy at most
<Theysen>
Bornholio, do you need a .dll of RSS or RSSVE
<Bornholio>
ok, same here
<Bornholio>
RSS, so we can move RSSVE forward too
<Theysen>
RSSVE runs under 1.3
<Theysen>
Phineas initially built it for 1.3 (this update) then backported the changes
<Theysen>
though the master branch is more advanced for 1.2.2 currently, once 1.3 drops RSSVE will be there I suppose
<Theysen>
Phineas built RSS in 1.3 iirc
<Theysen>
- side note - RC4 is performance hungrier than before due to scatterer and the likes being updated
<Bornholio>
wanted to make sure that Paps changes haven't affected that
<Theysen>
I played 1.2.2 with Pap's RSS and RSSVE RC4 without issues
<Theysen>
So as long as the configs reference the right names all is fine
<Bornholio>
thanks
<Bornholio>
nothing in the RealSolarSystem.dll history showing a 1.3v
<egg|z|egg>
Bornholio: remember to try it with чебышёв (which has a version that targets 1.3), we cannot allow a Principia gap :-p
<Bornholio>
Gap.Allow.OFF
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<Theysen>
Do we have currently any mechanism we could implement / expand upon to purchase "quality" / "durability" / "lifetime" for space equipment other than the obvious Electric Charge where once you're over your EMT things start to fail and it becomes an issue of good luck whether your craft can do one more flyby of a moon or not
<Theysen>
it sounds a sure lot like TF but making more things count on that might performance hog it even more
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<Bornholio>
you could add a resource generator module (consumer) to the part and when its out fail the part somehow. Thats still going to add demand.
<Bornholio>
or do something like NF's decaying RTG's if you need degredation over time
<Bornholio>
unfortunately those both focus on resources
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<Theysen>
yeah :/
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<darsie>
I found a question mark on kerbnet and landed there, but there is nothing.
<darsie>
Just land. And a crater rim.
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<darsie>
I landed on the Moon, but the impact contract says I impacted while the landing contract says I didn't land. I took off and landed again, but no landing ticked.
<darsie>
Did I land too hard? Nothing broke or exploded.
<darsie>
Tracking station says 'Landed at the Moon'.
<darsie>
Now the landing contract worked. Not sure if it was before or after I made a short flight and landed again.
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<NathanKell>
o/
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [03.09.2017 08:10:59]: "Yeah, something's definitely up with my KCT settings. New save, upgrade VAB rate 1 -> 0.07875 BP/s"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [03.09.2017 08:13:06]: "And these rates are actually being used in-game; a 1-point R&D node unlocks in 30 days instead of 74"
<Qboid>
NathanKell: awang left a message for you in #RO [03.09.2017 08:12:20]: "And all my facilities are fully upgraded. And upgrading science goes from 11.875 sci/yr to 12"