<wb99999999>
so Jool actually don't have that much control over its own system according to the mass huh
<wb99999999>
but yeah, the Joolian moons are crazy dense and heavy
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<Bornholio>
pap you must be busy or vacationing?
<Pap>
Nope, I am around
<Bornholio>
can you take a peek at my PR and see what bracket needs fixing in my change for the RD-108 , not sure if something automated you have is the reason
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<wb99999999>
more bracket???
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<Bornholio>
more or less, brackets are the bane of modules
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<blowfish>
how do you get a 2nd build rate in KCT?
<awang>
blowfish: IIRC, NathanKell said you shouldn't be able to
<blowfish>
ah ok
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<awang>
blowfish: never mind, I was wrong
<awang>
<@NathanKell> awang: Yes, you get 1 build line per VAB upgrade.
<awang>
<@NathanKell> That's how it's been in RP-0 for...since forever, I think
<blowfish>
ah, so upgrade the VAB
<blowfish>
not like its 1 million funds or anything
<awang>
Yeahhhh...
<awang>
Well, you know who to complain to :P
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<awang>
Is it possible to get lighter proc structural parts?
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<wb99999999>
any idea on VERY small launchers?
<wb99999999>
I mean the starting stuff aside
<wb99999999>
I am thinking about building a sort of advanced light launcher
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<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Define "small."
<wb99999999>
sub 1 ton to leo or meo
<wb99999999>
I'd like to have relative smooth flight profile without too much excessive G
<wb99999999>
maybe less than 6.5G peak?
<wb99999999>
and it should be simple
<ProjectThoth>
I unno, some kinda daisy-chained solid mcgoo?
<wb99999999>
I use to do this with proc solids
<wb99999999>
but there's a bug on the proc solids
<wb99999999>
burn time get messed up if you have more than like 3200kN of thrust
<ProjectThoth>
Could calculate it by hand.
<wb99999999>
no, the ACTUAL burn time gets messed up
<wb99999999>
your thrust get capped
<ProjectThoth>
Oh.
<ProjectThoth>
Hmmm.
<wb99999999>
Starwaster has implemented a temporary fix for proc parts 1.3
<ProjectThoth>
Are you playing sandbox?
<ProjectThoth>
I was gonna suggest a scaled-down Delta II.
<wb99999999>
you know...let's forget about RP-0 just for this occasion
<wb99999999>
so a RS-27?
<wb99999999>
yeah...copying Thor-delta might be good enough
<wb99999999>
or a few solid motors with a small insertion bus
<ProjectThoth>
That'd probably do it.
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<wb99999999>
I enjoy flying thor series a lot in sandbox
<wb99999999>
but it doesn't feel "advanced" enough
<ProjectThoth>
Hey, there's nothing wrong with a reliable workhorse.
<wb99999999>
maybe...Vega?
<ProjectThoth>
I like the Titan family, as a whole, for the same reason.
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<wb99999999>
then you probably like Atals as well
<wb99999999>
Atlas-Centaur did much work launching NASA payload
<ProjectThoth>
Stage and a half is neat.
<wb99999999>
oh, talking about this...
<wb99999999>
Mercury spacecraft undergoes a LOT of Gs during the final minute or two on the Atlas sustainer, like, A LOT
<ProjectThoth>
Sounds about right.
<ProjectThoth>
I mean, that's a ~1000 kN engine pushing about 5 tons of spacecraft and tanks at burnout.
<wb99999999>
(it's a balloon tank, to add to the trouble)
<ProjectThoth>
Yeet.
<wb99999999>
wait, atlas sustainer doesn't have nearly as much thrust
<wb99999999>
it's more like ~500 kN
<ProjectThoth>
I like stage-and-a-half in general, though.
<ProjectThoth>
It's a horribly cheaty way to achieve pretty heavy lift, but it works. :P
<wb99999999>
but to make it work you do need very light tank and structure
<wb99999999>
but 1.5 staging is usually less hazardous than separating strap-ons
<wb99999999>
so your point is still solid
<ProjectThoth>
My favorite concept is the Saturn VB/S-ID, which would have turned the S-IC into a 1.5STO.
<ProjectThoth>
Payload was about 22 tons to LEO.
<ProjectThoth>
The skirt was intended to be recovered, too!
<wb99999999>
hmmm
<wb99999999>
nice one
<wb99999999>
I feel like building a replica of it now
<wb99999999>
it might not be 100% viable but it is very cool
<ProjectThoth>
My second favorite Saturn concept was a reuse plan Boeing published back in 1968, which entailed splashing the S-IC down in the drink downrange.
<ProjectThoth>
They'd blow off the forward LOX dome and use the LOX tank as a pneumatic cylinder to absorb the landing shock (like the Shuttle SRBs did).
<wb99999999>
I love the Saturn-Shuttle
<wb99999999>
It looks amazing...
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<ProjectThoth>
Imagine Saturn-Shuttle plus reusable S-IC.
<wb99999999>
I think they did consider reusing the S-1C there
<ProjectThoth>
Hm, they did?
<ProjectThoth>
With wings, yeah.
<ProjectThoth>
But I'm thinking the '68 recovery proposal.
<ProjectThoth>
Much easier to implement, lower payload loss.
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<Theysen>
!tell Raidernick I was playing around with USProbes and the TDRS in particular, I had an issue with the deployment of the thing, it has 3x "Activate" which toggles the animation but upon clicking it it gets stuck in an endless animation loop of deploy and retracting, in between there is a split second of "Extend Solar Panels" button which vanishes instantly. Is that assumably a RT quirk?
<Qboid>
Theysen: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
man, the early game is just all Thor/Able. I must've launched about a dozen Thors in a row
<soundnfury>
want to launch a weather satellite? Thor/Able's got your back. need a lunar impactor? Stack a Thor/Able.
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<Theysen>
:D
<Theysen>
true soundnfury
<Theysen>
play soviet side then
<soundnfury>
Normally I'd have a load of Atlases in there too, but they're hella expensive now (which is fair, because balloons)
<soundnfury>
Theysen: would that be better? Nothing but R7 for the entire history of the programme :P
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<soundnfury>
o/ BadRocketsCo
<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy
<soundnfury>
I was just remarking on how Thor/Able can do everything in the early game
<BadRocketsCo>
Early tier soviets are easy mode
<soundnfury>
and how my last dozen or so launches have _all_ been Thors
<BadRocketsCo>
True, they're quite cheap
<Theysen>
soundnfury, but R7 looks better
<soundnfury>
Slander!
<Theysen>
at least you would have that going for you instead of permanent THor Able
<soundnfury>
I mean, if we're going on looks, just do everything with Atlas
<BadRocketsCo>
Is there a mod that adds the fuel tanks for Thor-Able?
<BadRocketsCo>
IIRC they weren't in FASA
<soundnfury>
(like I did in RIS; need a bigger LV? Try 3xE-1 + 3xLR105 in an Atlas-style design!)
<soundnfury>
BadRocketsCo: I dunno; I ptanks everything anyway
<BadRocketsCo>
Same
<BadRocketsCo>
Except Atlas
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<soundnfury>
and after all that singing of the praises of Thor/Able, my AJ10 has a performance loss failure. :|
<soundnfury>
(even though I already had max data on it, too)
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<soundnfury>
gah! another one!
<soundnfury>
(this time it's late enough in the burn that we might still have enough margin)
<soundnfury>
welp, no orbit for us :(
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<egg|zzz|egg>
lamont: hi, we'll be tagging and building Cesàro today, will you be able to build on mac tomorrowish?
<egg|zzz|egg>
wait I should !tell instead
<egg|zzz|egg>
!tell lamont we'll be tagging and building Cesàro today, will you be able to build on mac tomorrowish?
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<soundnfury>
!tell Pap Mare Fecunditatis is misspelled (the c is missing)
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<soundnfury>
!tell Pap Also, there appears to be some South Pole biome at the moon's North Pole‽
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<smartdummies>
can the reduction in the cost gained from tooling be added to the pop up to confirm the tooling? This would be useful for builds that you know would have limited use so that you can decide if it is worth the cost to do the tooling
<TonyC>
hi
<soundnfury>
smartdummies: part cost shown on middle-click is post-tooling
<soundnfury>
smartdummies: wait, no, I'm lying. That's the pre-tooling cost
<soundnfury>
_right-click menu_ shows the post-tooling cost (typically)
<soundnfury>
Iunno. It definitely says it somewhere.
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<awang>
egg|zzz|egg: Is the new Principia for both 1.2.2 and 1.3?
<egg|zzz|egg>
yup
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<Theysen_>
o/
<Rokker>
Bornholio: bombs <3
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<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy
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<soundnfury>
!wpn BadRocketsCo
* Qboid
gives BadRocketsCo a NFPA 704 git-rebase
<BadRocketsCo>
Yeah okay Qboid is just talking gibberish now
<soundnfury>
dammit qboid it's a frustum, not a frustrum
<soundnfury>
awang: only trouble with that is, the Isps in stock are _clearly_ storables
<BadRocketsCo>
I wish they had gone for more realistic tanks and engines
<BadRocketsCo>
And gone with 6x the current size of Kerbin
<BadRocketsCo>
But I guess that would make the learning curve a lot larger
<BadRocketsCo>
vOv
<awang>
soundnfury: I thought stock was supposed to be kerolox?
<soundnfury>
it might be supposed to be, but stock is supposed to be a lot of things
<awang>
BadRocketsCo: The Kerbal solution still works
<awang>
MOAR BOOSTERS
<BadRocketsCo>
Heh, true
<Bornholio>
kerbal is probably closer to a50/NTO
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<Theysen>
yes stock fuel is hypergols as Bornholio said
<Theysen>
monoprop most likely nitrogen? or something a bit better like helium
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<Bornholio>
thought it was htp like but never looked at it closely
<Theysen>
well tbf I really couldn't care less
<Theysen>
tinkering around with anything close to stock the last couple of days just was the biggest crap i did in the last months. It's just .SO. bad. Or I am spoiled, but whatever
<Theysen>
are the other dev people on vacation atm? :)
<Theysen>
or burn out?
<soundnfury>
Theysen: I think NK and Pap are both taking a break. Not burned out AFAIK
<Theysen>
gotcha :)
<Theysen>
is there like an official Realism Overhaul font?
<Theysen>
I'm sitting on improving the RO thread and RP-0 OP rewrite and was thinking about some graphics too
<Theysen>
couldn't find anything related though
<soundnfury>
v0v
<soundnfury>
clearly we should use Johnstone Railway Sans
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<ProjectThoth>
Comic Sans or nothing, imo.
<ProjectThoth>
It just screams fun!
<blowfish>
ugh ... this is why I can't be trusted to build LVs before testing them in sandbox first ... forgot to switch the thrusters to HTP
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<Theysen>
soundnfury, you're serious about it? I really like it
<Theysen>
ProjectThoth, nifty.
<ProjectThoth>
Though if we're talking font replacement, I vote Futura.
<soundnfury>
Theysen: basically, I like Johnston Sans because I'm British
<soundnfury>
and what's the point in having a nationality if you can't be stereotypical about it now and then? :)
* soundnfury
minds the gap
<ProjectThoth>
I can't wait for Underground Overhaul.
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<Theysen>
I downloaded them, I will try and see what looks good :)
<Theysen>
and unfortunately my saturn has no rings?! gosh dang it
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<Bornholio>
kopernicus
<Theysen>
yeah, I'll try latest backport then
<Theysen>
although thats whats in there
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<Slavi>
'lo egg
<Theysen>
Futura looks good
<Slavi>
Hey everyone - quick question: Which version of MJ/PEG is best at the moment? Most stable / best at flying my rockets into space.
<Qboid>
lamont: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [16.09.2017 13:36:34]: "we'll be tagging and building Cesàro today, will you be able to build on mac tomorrowish?"
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<awang>
Theysen: Is that version for 1.2.2?
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<Theysen>
yeah?
<awang>
How does it differ from MJ2-dev?
<Theysen>
It has the PEG stuff awang
<Theysen>
+ all the changes to normal mechjeb dev I assume
<Pap>
o/ all Not burned out, just busy with classes and getting the house ready for the baby. So I am around "sorta". There isn't much dev for me to be working on right now. Everything that is up in the air right now requires NathanKell|AFK unfortunately.
<Qboid>
Pap: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [16.09.2017 15:36:39]: "Mare Fecunditatis is misspelled (the c is missing)"
<Qboid>
Pap: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [16.09.2017 15:45:08]: "Also, there appears to be some South Pole biome at the moon's North Pole‽"
<Theysen>
^ wormhole.
<Pap>
soundnfury: I am not at PC now. Can you open an issue on RSS Github?
<awang>
I see
<awang>
What kind(s) of launches does PEG work poorly with?
<awang>
Like does it deal alright with coast/kick launches?
<Theysen>
not at all
<Theysen>
based on atlas / centaur
<Theysen>
for high twr launches you better go manual or whatever you did before
<ProjectThoth>
Assuming PEG doesn't work with pop-up stages, either?
<Theysen>
pop-up stages?
<Bornholio>
yes it works with pop up
<Bornholio>
set your ascent phase to longer than the booster phase
<ProjectThoth>
Basically, instead of curving over with a gravity turn, you do a pretty inefficient ascent.
<awang>
Theysen: Awww, was hoping for some help :(
<ProjectThoth>
It's nice because it drops the first stage close to the launch zone.
<Theysen>
awang, what kind of help?
<Theysen>
ProjectThoth, ah so overengineer the upper and land the first one?
<awang>
Theysen: Mostly not having to guess as to what the right attitude would be, especially for rockets with long-burning second stages
<ProjectThoth>
Theysen: Yup!
<Theysen>
awang, yeah that works with PEG quite well
<Theysen>
say you fly an Atlas V type of rocket. PEG flies it for you without any issue
<Theysen>
given it finds a solution
<Theysen>
(depends on orbit altitude, stage burn time and delta v etc)
<awang>
Hmmm
<awang>
Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with rockets, so I don't know what real-life LVs my rockets correspond to...
<Theysen>
give TWR's and burn times
<awang>
Is PEG just for getting to orbit, or can it help handle some transfers to the Moon and beyond?
<Theysen>
just for orbit
<Theysen>
power explicit guidance
<ProjectThoth>
PEG is open-loop, right?
<Theysen>
fly a initial pitch program off a precalculated table (or input some okayish numbers for turn rate like in MJ now) and at a certain point guidance calculates pitch and trajectory on the current status over and over again
<Theysen>
it switches iirc towards the end
<Theysen>
to avoid errors
<Theysen>
might be mixing up though, I didn't remember all
<ProjectThoth>
But it's open loop until shutdown, basically, because of atmosphere and etc?
<Theysen>
PEG doesn't know about atmospheres
<Theysen>
thus the initial pitch program is just straight preprogrammed
<Theysen>
or your well known "gravity turn"
<ProjectThoth>
Ah.
<Theysen>
basically follow prograde to not bust my craft plz, thy
<ProjectThoth>
Yeah, I was totally lost when I read the paper.
<Theysen>
I'd suggest you install it and see what it does with a nice 2 stage craft
<Theysen>
it takes some practice to get the initial turn rate and duration right to get best efficiency
<ProjectThoth>
I've been re-learning stock, it'll be a bit before I dive into that. :P
<Theysen>
I attempt to start PEG guidance on the 1000m/s at 45° mark
<Theysen>
Alright :)
<ProjectThoth>
I'd really like to try to do the DH-1 in RO, though.
<ProjectThoth>
I don't know if there's an RL-60 hanging around in any parts pack.
<Rokker>
ProjectThoth: there is
<ProjectThoth>
I'd also have to figure out how to get it to run on methalox.
<Theysen>
easy config change :)
<ProjectThoth>
(and probably run a separate install, because I've got a good stock game going)
<Theysen>
absolutely
<Theysen>
get a new fresh 1.2.2 install and drop RSS RO in that
<Pap>
Thanks so
<Pap>
^^ soundnfury
<Pap>
1
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<awang>
lamont: Let me know when you get the macOS build for Principia done!
<awang>
The KSC chickadee sounds are confusing :(
<awang>
Can't tell whether the bird is from my computer or outside
<jclishman>
The RO suite of mods is still on KSP 1.2, correct?
<ProjectThoth>
Alright, I'll go do that, Theysen.
<jclishman>
KSP 1.2.2, rather?
<Bornholio>
yes, still a couple keeping it from 1.3
<jclishman>
ok, thanks
<jclishman>
not like we'
<jclishman>
re missing anything from not being on 1.3
<ProjectThoth>
I have upgraded the problem from "slightly broken" to "very broken"
<ProjectThoth>
Wait, it works now.
<awang>
soundnfury: What about it?
<ProjectThoth>
I have some graphics issues, but everything else seems okay.
<awang>
ProjectThoth: Graphics issues?
<ProjectThoth>
awang: Invisible plumes.
<soundnfury>
awang: all of it. Truly, the Patriarchs of Unix were wise and bearded men!
<ProjectThoth>
I'll sort that out later, I probably just put something in the wrong place.
<soundnfury>
the distinction that should be drawn, I think, is that Knuth was a scientist whereas McIlroy was an _engineer_.
<ProjectThoth>
bbl
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<UmbralRaptor>
Are scientists in instrumentalist positions actually engineers?
<soundnfury>
uhhh, to me an 'instrumentalist' is a musician…
<UmbralRaptor>
People who build (and maintain?) instruments.
<UmbralRaptor>
eg: those fancy ≤1 m/s spectrographs
<soundnfury>
yeeeees, though a few of them _might_ just be technicians?
<UmbralRaptor>
Quite possibly.
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<wb99999999>
good afternoon people
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<soundnfury>
'lo nines
<UmbralRaptor>
Nines… 9S?
<soundnfury>
wb×10⁸ (to within experimental error)
<awang>
Just wondering
<awang>
When a contract says "launch a new vessel"
<awang>
Does recovering an entire vessel using KCT and relaunching count as a "new" vessel?
<soundnfury>
yes, I believe so
<soundnfury>
(at least, it should — I can imagine ways a bug in KCT could break that)
<awang>
Yay
<awang>
I'm glad I found out about that feature
<awang>
I was getting tired of planes taking months to "build" again after recovery
<wb99999999>
lol
<wb99999999>
guess they're maintaining the planes in the shuttle fashion
<lamont>
ProjectThoth: PEG is a closed-loop Predictor-Corrector.
<lamont>
it applies a linear tangent guidance law from where you are, and predicts where you’ll wind up (analytic solution with some approximation). then it calculates the miss, and applies a correct and repeats the cycle. once it has converted it just uses the current guidance as the next guess.
<lamont>
there’s a more accurate, but heavier approach, which uses 4th order runge-kutta with adaptive step size to integrate the trajectory forwards along with computing the first differential, and then it applies newton’s method to refine the guess.
<soundnfury>
whereas konrad just integrates the trajectory forwards with forward-step Euler, shows you where you'll end up, and leaves it to you to 'refine' by steering the rocket yourself
* egg|zzz|egg
stabs forward Euler with a pointed stick
* soundnfury
stabs egg|zzz|egg with fresh fruit
<Bornholio>
he paerly noticed it
<Bornholio>
pear
<soundnfury>
konrad's method is really brutally simple; it may not be the most accurate (and sure, in pathological cases it might be numerically unstabble), but it makes it easy to add support for other kinds of burn besides launch-to-orbit-insertion
<soundnfury>
it uses pretty much the same code for TLI and interplanetary injection burns, a transfer window planner, and airless landing guidance