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<wb99999999> satellites aren't very dense if I have to make a guess
<ProjectThoth> Well, in a really simple sense, like (max payload) / (max volume).
<wb99999999> numbers on fairing sizes are very available
<wb99999999> you find out :)
<wb99999999> go* find out
<wb99999999> fairings are usually...larger than we think it is
<wb99999999> when I build LVs in game often I have to manually enlarge/elongate the fairing to make it look realistic
<ProjectThoth> The Shuttle was about 93 kg/m3 at most, huh.
<wb99999999> it does have a rather large payload bay compared to its payload capacity then
<wb99999999> I think currently the largest fairing we have is the Ariane 5 19 meter one
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<ProjectThoth> Hmm, what's F9's maximum payload at this point?
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<Bornholio> 22.8t LEO
<ProjectThoth> So F9 has a payload density of ~158 kg/m3.
<Bornholio> block 5 should push that up a bit more, one estimate a month back or so was maybe more than a 1-2t
<ProjectThoth> So probably up to 170ish kg/m3.
<Bornholio> hard to say if its realistic, but the way elon was talking about re-useable upper it could be used up by that
<ProjectThoth> I think S2 reuse is a bit of a pipe dream for F9, the performance hit is too great.
<wb99999999> well actually I think a lower payload density is better
<wb99999999> since it implies that you can carry more bulky payload
<Bornholio> I think the resusable stage is gonna happen and i think that it will involve using the fairings to increase drag high enough
<Bornholio> the big push started after the fairing recoveries gave them a bunch of insight into what the could survive
<wb99999999> I'd bet on it not happening
<Bornholio> imagine if the sencond stage holds on to one of the fairings and uses it to mid L/D skip across the upper atmosphere until its slow enough like a dynasoar
<ProjectThoth> Nah. Only really viable way is a nosedive.
<ProjectThoth> Or replacing the upper stage engine with an aerospike and using that. :P
<wb99999999> give it up dude
<wb99999999> the aerospike idea really doesn't work
<ProjectThoth> but why tho
<Bornholio> except several of them have been developed and static test fired and work well
<Bornholio> J-2, X-33 etc
<ProjectThoth> Aerospikes aren't the worst thing in the world, but they're kind of useless.
<wb99999999> No I mean
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<wb99999999> You can't use is as a heat shield
<wb99999999> no way that's gonna happen
<wb99999999> I'm not saying that aerospike engine is not plausible
<Bornholio> they recovered a relatively intact fairing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Y0FS8Z1Qk
<ProjectThoth> No, not the actual spike, and you'd have to contend with active cooling... but the idea really isn't new.
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<Starwaster> peoples
<ProjectThoth> non-human
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<Bornholio> duderino'
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<awang> What's the best way to debug a craft with 0 drag in FAR?
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<Bornholio> it usually has a zero thickness area, maybe above a decoupler, use struts to fix
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<awang> Bornholio: What do you mean?
<awang> soundnfury: Getting the Cape lined up is harder for me than you made it look :P
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<wb99999999> hey awang
<wb99999999> target moon
<wb99999999> and get the rendezvous windows out
<wb99999999> wait until relative inclination become 0
<wb99999999> launch
<awang> Does targeting work with Principia?
<wb99999999> yes
<awang> Hm
<awang> Oh wait
<awang> Tracking station
<awang> Never mind
<wb99999999> yeah you need to be on the pad
<wb99999999> it still uses patched conics
<wb99999999> but inclination don't oscillate much
<wb99999999> so it is pretty accurate
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<wb99999999> what made Squad deciding on using patched conics in the first place is curios to me
<wb99999999> tbh it kinda sucks
<awang> I don't have an upgraded tracking station
<awang> Although I didn't realize about the rendezvous window
<awang> I don't use enough MJ
<wb99999999> MJ
<wb99999999> sorry pressed enter
<awang> I thought patched conics were used because they're easier to implement
<wb99999999> I don't like MJ's auto pilot that much, because with RF and RO it is very confused
<wb99999999> but the information windows are absolutely great
<wb99999999> usually when I'm playing I will have at least 3 or 4 windows up to show me all kind of data
<awang> Yeah, same here
<awang> It gets really crowded, since I'm on a laptop screen
<wb99999999> and I think Sarbian actually fixed some of the autopilot in RF lately
<wb99999999> it's getting better and better
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<wb99999999> wait, where's Lamont?
<wb99999999> does anyone see him around?
<Rokker> Bornholio: please tell me ur up
<Rokker> Bornholio: footage of the satellite bumping around went up
<awang> !seen lamont
<Qboid> awang: I last saw lamont on [31.08.2017 19:26:30] in #RO saying: "they could have fixed that problem in KSP"
<Rokker> lamont: you too
<Rokker> waerloga: wat about u
<awang> wb99999999: Just realized I can't use the rendezvous window because the tracking station isn't upgraded :(
<Rokker> screw it, awang and wb99999999
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<awang> Rokker: ?
<Rokker> awang: ur the only ones around to show that to
<Rokker> and i find it hilarious
<awang> I actually completely missed the fact that that was a video
<awang> Bad chrome settings :(
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<awang> Also, I don't get it :(
<awang> Sense of humor needs upgrading
<Rokker> awang: indian failure from early today
<Rokker> earlier
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<awang> wb99999999: Moon's relative inclination doesn't get below ~10 degrees?
<awang> Rokker: Looks like I have another launch to catch up on
<Rokker> awang: fairings didnt sep, satellite did. so low orbit and the satellite ended up bouncing around inside the fairing
<awang> Rokker: Oh
<awang> Oh dear
<awang> That makes things much funnier
<Rokker> awang: they forgot to check their staging before launch
<awang> Rokker: No way to force fairings to separate later?
<Rokker> nope
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<awang> Speaking of which, my fairings aren't protecting my antennae :(
<Rokker> wouldnt matter much either, it was way too low
<awang> Oh, extra fairing weight?
<Rokker> yeah
<awang> Didn't realize they were that heavy
<Rokker> awang: a decent few m/s lost
<Rokker> like probably up to 200 given how early it was supposed to sep
<awang> Oh
<awang> Wow
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<wb99999999> do they fully fuel the Atlas CCB when they don't use boosters?
<wb99999999> the CCB has so much fuel it can barely lift it self up...
<Rokker> wb99999999: why do you think its so slow
<wb99999999> okay...
<wb99999999> I have to say that the CCB is a truly heavy booster...
<wb99999999> It buns for 4 and half minutes...
<wb99999999> burns*
<wb99999999> I just watched a 401 launch
<wb99999999> it took 10 seconds to just clear the tower
<Rokker> wb99999999: its full
<Rokker> full n slow
<wb99999999> yes
<Rokker> wb99999999: ssssssssssllllllllllooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww
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<awang> How is the baby sargeant decoupler supposed to work?
<awang> The x11 cluster always seems to get stuck on the x3 cluster when I try it
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<BadRocketsCo> Howdy
<Rokker> awang: odd
<Rokker> awang: and the 3 stack is nested half way in on the decoupler's node?
<Rokker> 3 cluster*
<awang> Let me get out from behind the Earth and I'll get a screenshot
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<awang> Er, never mind
<awang> KSP crashed
<awang> Give me a bit
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<soundnfury> !wpn BadInternetCo
* Qboid gives BadInternetCo a zepplin
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<awang> BadRocketsCo is now GhostRocketsCo?
<soundnfury> what's the ISP of ectoplasm and lox?
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<awang> Dangit
<awang> KSP crashed 3 times in like 15 minutes
<awang> Quicksaving and better time warp don't appear to play well
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<Rokker> awang: first off, whats that lowest engine and what pack is it from
<Rokker> secondly, strange, that should be working
<awang> Rokker: Engine is a RD-0105/0109 series, from RealEngines
<Rokker> oh ew
<Rokker> nvm
<awang> Rokker: idk if this is it, but I just found a second Baby Sargeant x11 decoupler
<Rokker> didnt realize it was russian
<awang> That wasn't under the "coupling" section for some reason
<Rokker> might explain it
<awang> The one I had been using clipped into the x3, but it didn't look that wrong, so I just went with it
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<awang> Rokker: These are the two decouplers I found
<awang> What's the "ew" for?
<awang> I think the decoupler was breaking FAR too
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<Rokker> awang: russian engineds
<Rokker> engines
<Rokker> awang: nah, they should be clipping
<awang> I actually get drag now
<awang> Unfortunately
<awang> What about Russian engines?
<awang> Wait, really?
<awang> Interesting
<Rokker> russian engines are disgusting
<egg|zzz|egg> !tell awang yes there is targeting, it's in the principia UI, please have a look at the docs
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang> Rokker: Why?
<Qboid> awang: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #RO [01.09.2017 06:37:59]: "yes there is targeting, it's in the principia UI, please have a look at the docs"
<Rokker> egg|zzz|egg: ...
<Rokker> that was a rather unnecessary qboid
<Rokker> awang: theyre unamerican
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<awang> egg|zzz|egg: I'm rather disappointed in myself for missing that button
<awang> Rokker: ?
<Rokker> awang: ?
<awang> What's the video for?
<Rokker> awang: to show you what the cluster stack should look like
<wb99999999> yes
<wb99999999> it's arranged in a ring
<awang> Rokker: I see
<awang> Yeah, that's definitely what I originally had
<awang> The 11x just didn't fall off though for whatever reason
<Rokker> awang: did you press the stage button angrily enough the 3rd time around?
<awang> Rokker: I definitely heard MJ spamming away at that
<Rokker> odd
<awang> OK, now it works
<awang> I think the issue was the decoupler
<awang> Use RN's decoupler, good
<awang> Er, both RN decouplers and engines
<awang> FASA 3x baby sargeant has broken stats
<awang> The better unlock is default, and what should be the default unlock is the unlockable
<awang> That's what I get for trying to abuse a mistake, I guess
<soundnfury> awang: iirc the FASA 11x has a non-convex collider or something, which is why it doesn't fall off
<soundnfury> or rather, it falls off but then gets stuck, and if you're spinning you tumble like mad.
<soundnfury> (welcome to reason #47 why I use liquid kick stages)
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<Rokker> soundnfury: https://snag.gy/eZz47g.jpg
<Rokker> >mfw shit doesnt separate properly
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<awang> Impacts with kick motors are hard :(
<awang> soundnfury: TIL liquid kick stages exist
<awang> And that would explain a lot about why the x11 was causing so many issues for me
<awang> egg|work|egg: How does Principia calculate the burn duration for a maneuver?
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<wb99999999> they...calculate it
<wb99999999> there's 3 tabs you can click on
<wb99999999> active engine = calculate based on your current active engines
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<awang> Ah
<awang> But if I'm using the active engine just for attitude, then it'll be wrong
<awang> Makes sense
<awang> Also, did interstage fairings change between 1.0.x and 1.2.2?
<awang> I thought the fairings would still come off like they do for normal payload fairings
<awang> But they seem to stay in one piece now?
<wb99999999> you have to stage the fairing itself
<wb99999999> interstage fairings can't be staged
<wb99999999> so they stay with the faring base
<wb99999999> if you want to stage the faring as well just use a payload fairing wall then
<awang> Oh, that'd explain a lot
<awang> Thanks!
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<Bornholio> rokker what?
<Bornholio> ah
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* darsie needs more memory.
<darsie> Or is somethnig wrong with KSP? 82% of 6 GB is unusually high.
<Sarbian> RO uses a lot of memory. Even more so if you add more parts pack
<Sarbian> And hi all. I am back :)
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<darsie> The RP-0 tech tree has many empty nodes. Is this work in progress or can I fill them by installing mods?
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<Pap> darsie: What version are you playing with? The Dev version or the release version?
<Bornholio> pap is alive
<Pap> ^^^ Is true
<Bornholio> Bornholio is employed
<darsie> release from ckan.
* darsie types blindly, cause his computer is swapping.
<darsie> Can't see wat I typed so far.
<Pap> NICE Bornholio!!! When do you start?
<Bornholio> darsie using opengl or dx11?
<Bornholio> next thrusday
<darsie> opengl, IMO.
<darsie> nvidia card on debian linux.
<Pap> darsie: Ah, ok, yes there are going to be a lot of empty nodes with the release version of the tree. Adding mods will help, but past 1970ish, there will not be much
<Bornholio> I use 70% on 12G with just a few things open and mods etc. Near Future pops a lot of later secondary stuff
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<Pap> Bornholio: have you been playing with the new crew science, how is it going?
<Bornholio> nothing broken so far, but not much play time
<Bornholio> on hard i hit a wall for points about time to start landing on moon
<Kiwivogel> i have a new rig and really should get back on the RO train but I've not had the energy lately :(
<Bornholio> dev branch is a learning curve but its all gelling, master has paps awesome tech tree and lots of good stuff
<Pap> Bornholio: Uncrewed Moon Landing? Ran out of Science before?
<Pap> Bornholio: Even with all the new Moon biomes?
<Bornholio> pap early science is the one dead spot, it adds so little, then you sat era and the techs really but at 60% science without squeegee on earth biomes flying i'm just barely grabbing gemini pods and the first blue sky nodes
<Bornholio> no have't done moon orbital yet, just a flyby impacts
<Bornholio> clarify early human blue sky
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<Pap> Bornholio: Did the new science experiments for the Capsules give you enough science, or were you unable to get enough science to unlock them?
<Pap> o/ Maxsimal
<Bornholio> just got to them in the current career, may do that later today
<Pap> OK, just curious on the balance, I know not too many people have made it that far
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<darsie> Why does RD-856 [Radial] have only one ignition? It's a vernier thruster.
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<darsie> Do engines without reliability data have unlimited runtime?
<Bornholio> РД-856 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-856 restarts 1
<darsie> k
<darsie> The tooltip warp multipliers don't match the warp factor.
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<Bornholio> nope :)
<Bornholio> Squad UI for the win!
<Maxsimal> o/ Pap, sorry was busy with meetings and such, how's it going?
<Pap> Hey Maxsimal How far have you gotten in a new career?
<Maxsimal> Not very far tbh, was testing sounding rockets, I haven't gotten to manned stuff. Was planning to start those new plane contracts this weekend, finally have a good chunk of free time.
<Maxsimal> But I can try going further in a career if you'd like instead
<Pap> Maxsimal: for the plane contracts, keep in mind that we would "like" to add some Crew Science experiments to the plane cockpits. If you have ideas on what would be good options, would love those ideas
<Maxsimal> Pap: Sure, I'll think about that. Most of the focus for me is 1: Trying to make players actually use planes rather than rockets for contracts and 2: Having a bit of progression to them, like the new sounding rocket ones. Nothing should interfere with doing more science with them, at the very least.
<Maxsimal> Realistically, most of the X-plane stuff was about testing engineering, rather than doing crewed experiments though. Could we do an experiment like they did with testing an airframe or engine under certain conditions - a bit of an extension to how stock does parts testing?
<Bornholio> lol part count 1 (mercury pod, cost 8202, rollout cost 119776) on my 150t pad
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<Maxsimal> Bornholio: I told NK the multipliers would stack up too high for manned stuff :P
<Bornholio> for the price of two shuttle launches :)
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<Pap> Any of you guys play any WWII games?
<Bornholio> HOI
<Pap> I've been playing HOI4 this week. Was curious if there was anything else anyone recommended
<Bornholio> black ice HOI3
<Pap> I don't know if I have the skill for Black Ice :)
<Bornholio> yes it is a bit heavy, as germany i spend half my time reorganizing the pre existing units, you looking for tactical/strategic/personal?
<Pap> Bornholio: I have played and enjoyed WWII RTS's, Grand Strategy, etc. HOI is about as much Grand Strategy that I can handle. I am looking for something similar to some older Civ2 Scenarios, or World in Flames Board Game that works Single Player
<Maxsimal> I liked HOI3 a lot till I saw a playthrough where some guy conquered the world with liberia or estonia or something and was like 'great, now I know how broken it is, ruined it'
<Maxsimal> I enjoyed world of warships for a while btw, if you like more simmy stuff. It got too grindy but it was good fun for a while.
<Bornholio> supreme ruler i like except the game AI is crap.
<Maxsimal> Simmy is not the right world. Real time.
<Maxsimal> *word. Fuck. :P Can't type.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: o/ the original Sniper Elite is great, but of course it's rather old. still, it has a very intense atmosphere, and an evil AI.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> it takes place in the last days of WW2, in Berlin
<Pap> I did play a couple of the Sniper Elite games and enjoyed them
<Pap> Maxsimal: Those online games that are free to play have seemed to be too grindy for me
<Maxsimal> Pap: Yeah normally I agree, and I also agree that when you hit tier 5 or 6 there's diminishing returns, but with WoW there was enough fun in learning each ship, as well as learning how to play well to offset the grindiness for long enough, for me.
<Pap> Thanks Maxsimal I will take a look at that!
<Maxsimal> Plus there's just moments of pure awesome where you sink half the enemy fleet with your DD because you're just that good/lucky :)
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<Maxsimal> anyway, I'm heading home shortly, later
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* Rokker bounces off Bornholio like ann irnss off a fairing
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: did you see the indian failure yesterday?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> say what?
<Bornholio> that a shotr pingpong table
<Bornholio> short
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Rokker: visibly failed, as in, exploded, or just failed to reach a desired orbit?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah, I see, satellite got trapped
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: failed to reach the desired orbit because the fairings didnt sep
<Hypergolic_Skunk> well, space is hard!
<Rokker> and then it bounced around inside the fairing
<Bornholio> first PSLV failure since 1997 IIRC
<Hypergolic_Skunk> to be fair, it's not like that never happened to me in KSP..
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<Rokker> Bornholio: first Indian failure since 2010, first PSLV failure since 97
<Bornholio> yeah they have a pretty good record
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