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<Thufir> does anyone know what config or mod lets you extend b9 procedural wings pas 16m? have it in my 112 install and been diggin through gamedata for past hr trying to find it for 122
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<SlainteMaith> There's still a 1.2.2 fork of MJ dev, right? I'm reinstalling things and getting very confused in the process.
<SlainteMaith> At a glance, it seems like all of lamont's PEGAS work is solely for 1.3.0. Which I know for a fact is wrong.
<SlainteMaith> Ah so.
<Qboid> [01f38] title: Revert "1.3 required changes"... by Lamont Granquist | Additions: 28 | Deletions: 26 | https://github.com/lamont-granquist/MechJeb2/commit/01f38c9517f4864979892921c27c154a5d8a7b14
<lamont> i’m continually back porting the 1.3 dev branch and building my new patches on top of that
<lamont> at the same time i did ship everything prior to yesterday into the dev branch which landed in the 1.3 builds as well
<lamont> long-lived feature branches make me twitchy
<lamont> and sarbian already merged some fixes on top of my PEG patches into his dev, which i’ve then pulled back
<lamont> TL;DR is just use my releases for KSP 1.2.2/RO/RSS
<lamont> PEGAS is also all reddy’s work, mine is just Atlas-Centaur-Surveyor-era PEG
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<SlainteMaith> Ah, gotcha. So trying to launch a space shuttle with your code might not yield the best results?>
<NathanKell|WORK> should be OK, just not quite as optimal
<NathanKell|WORK> the issue is azimuth
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<SlainteMaith> I think there's no properly working 1.2.2 shuttle with RSS/RO as well. I thought 1.1.3 was the best version for shuttle ops, still.
<Pap> ^^^^ SlainteMaith This is being worked on
<SlainteMaith> Not a complaint, merely a statement. =)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> just uploaded the Real KSC tutorial to youtube. waiting for the HD version to become available.
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> here we go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuoxCGK_z58
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<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v7BaX
<github> RP-0/Developmental 9724c99 Pap: Merge remote-tracking branch 'refs/remotes/origin/master' into Developmental
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> aight, half past 3. good night yall
<lamont> bigger problem with the shuttle will be the drop tank staging will confuse the KSP-code that has to deal with staging right now
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<NathanKell> o/
<NathanKell> Hypergolic_Skunk: watching!
<NathanKell> lamont: why? It runs until insertion yes?
<NathanKell> (to a ~100x400 orbit)
<Pap> o/ NathanKell just started up my Launch Costs career, 50,000 per upgrade point!
<NathanKell> Pap Yes which is why I said multiply your fund gain and fund loss stats by 5x
<NathanKell> so buildings cost 5x as much and contracts pay 5x as much
<Pap> I did 4.5 to see how it will play
<NathanKell> ah ok
<NathanKell> I also multiplied upgrades by 5x
<Pap> This is going to be very interesting, much more interesting decisions get to be made now
<NathanKell> For early LVs total costs may be no more than ~2x what they were
<NathanKell> Launch cost depends on LV *and* pad, so don't over-pad
<Pap> Ah, good to know
<NathanKell> There's a fixed cost per pad (function of pad ^3), plus the cost-per-BP is also multiplied by pad level (^2)
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<NathanKell> so for light LVs it may take only 1/10th the time to roll out it does to integrate
<awang> Has CactEye Optics ever been considered for integration into RO?
<NathanKell> for biggest-pad, it's a 2/3, 1/3 split
<NathanKell> wait that's wrong now that I think about it
<NathanKell> I need to change that formula...
<Pap> awang: It would be great, but it isn't the most well-kept up to date and working mod
<taniwha> small rockets might be integrated on the pad
<Pap> I think Tarsier "might" be a better option
<taniwha> (as a fun thought)
<awang> Pap: :(
<awang> Tarsier? First I've heard of it
<NathanKell> it should have been 3/5, 2/5
<NathanKell> it's 2/3, 1/3
<NathanKell> need to fix
<Pap> !g tarsier ksp mod
<Qboid> Pap: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154853-13-tarsier-space-technology-with-galaxies-v69-14th-july-2017/ [[1.3] Tarsier Space Technology with Galaxies (V6.9) 14th July 2017 ...] (198 results found, took 0.61s)
<lamont> NathanKell: just drop tanks + needing to mash reinit staging
<NathanKell> lamont: But you never drop the tanks
<NathanKell> Not while PEG is running you don't
<NathanKell> lamont: It's just like R-7.
<lamont> when is the big orange thing decoupled?
<NathanKell> After insertion to 100x(desired orbit)
<NathanKell> then you cruise around to Ap and circ on OMS
<lamont> oh and the tank just reenters and burns up?
<NathanKell> yes, on the next pass
<NathanKell> or the one after that
<NathanKell> 100km isn't *that* low a perigee
<lamont> sure
<ferram4_> Still lower than spysats
<NathanKell> I think it might even be 90km
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<NathanKell> I forget exactly
<NathanKell> Anyway, it's *quite* low
<NathanKell> (by Pe standards)
<taniwha> such a waste. could have used the tanks to build a space station
<lamont> ah that’s why scott manley was critiquing his manual space shuttle flight to orbit in his orbiter vid since he left the orange tank in space
<NathanKell> Wet workshops are harder than you'd think
<Pap> Speaking of stations, is the NKyut 1 going up today?
<taniwha> not saying it would be easy
<NathanKell> Today alas no
<NathanKell> I can't afford to start *building* it yet
<NathanKell> it's ludicrously expensive
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<NathanKell> And I have like 35-40min right now before we leave for supper
<NathanKell> should get back about 10
<taniwha> need financing in KSP
<NathanKell> heh
<NathanKell> We kinda do
<NathanKell> launch costs are paid every 10% of rollout :)
<taniwha> not so much loans, but being able to pay partial payments
<Red5> RealBank.dll when?
<NathanKell> taniwha: Yep, that's what I mean, KCT does that
<NathanKell> you pay 10% of the launch cost at each 10% of the rollout
<NathanKell> the vessel manufacturing/integrating cost you do pay up front tho
<taniwha> might be too coarse
<taniwha> and manufacturing/integration should be partial too
<NathanKell> I agree
<ferram4> And infrastructure costs.
<ferram4> Like, for getting the parts and fuel.
<Red5> Do costs vary by launch site?
<NathanKell> alas no
<NathanKell> They do by pad level
<NathanKell> but not site
<Red5> Not sure it's worth modelling but it is a consideration. Sea access is handy for keeping component transport costs down, for example.
<NathanKell> yep
<taniwha> need sea-launch facilities, too
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<taniwha> (though that's in general, not just RO)
<Pap> NathanKell: What effects Rollout Time? I had a more complex rocket take less time to rollout. Must be part of Build Points?
<NathanKell> Pad level--always the same pad?
<Starwaster> lamont ... the big orange thing? Was that its technical designation then?
<NathanKell> As for rollout--did it also take less time to build?
<NathanKell> or just rollout was faster than the other?
<Pap> Yes, first 2 launches, one was a WAC with no Tiny Tim at .59 BP/s, took 1d, 15h, second was a WAC with Tiny Tim at .822 BP/s, took 1d 7h
<Starwaster> taniwha you were right, the thing with jet engines cutting out unevenly is still a thing.... but apparently not if they're placed separately instead of symmetrically o.O
<NathanKell> .59BP/s vs .822BP/s ?
<NathanKell> That would explain it, no?
<Pap> That is what I was asking, sorry, Rollout is affected by BP's aswell as Pad Level?
<NathanKell> Yes
<NathanKell> Always has been :)
<NathanKell> BP/s affects all timed things except science research
<NathanKell> Rollout uses the total BP, I believe, i.e. the sum of all VAB 'lines'
<Pap> OK, good (never paid that clsoe attention), but now I am tracking everything so that I can share it for feedback on Launch Costs
<NathanKell> :)
<Pap> !tell Maxs* So the error with the Sounding Rocket contracts happens until you reach the Karman Line. They are trying to generate, but cannot parse the details needed
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<NathanKell> Pap: Is your xls current in git, or is your local version current?
<NathanKell> I'm going to try to open it...
<Pap> My local version is current. let me push
<NathanKell> cool
<NathanKell> I need to adjust prices...
<NathanKell> So much was done with launch costs in mind
<NathanKell> err, folding them in
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<Pap> NathanKell: After launch costs are completed, is there anything else we need to get done before release?
<github> [RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7Bwp
<github> RP-0/master 7ef9b5a Pap: Update Tech Tree XLS
<NathanKell> 1. Rescale science based on the new biomes.
<NathanKell> 2. PARTUPGRADEs to replace the dummy parts for PP/PF.
<NathanKell> 3. Rep-gating milestones.
<Pap> 1. And fold in new science experiments
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<NathanKell> yep
<Pap> What do you mean by number 3?
<NathanKell> ah put that here then? https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/680
<Qboid> [#680] title: Current To-Do List | I have started a to-do list of things that I know need to be completed, I was going to keep this locally, but it doesn't make any sense to do that.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/680
<Pap> Not allow contracts until at a certain rep?
<NathanKell> yeah
<NathanKell> But that requires rebalacning rep in contracts I think
<NathanKell> regex was looking at that
<NathanKell> dunno how far he got
<Pap> Added it
<NathanKell> Cool!
<NathanKell> I need to look into how hard it would be to put kerbals out of action after a mission
<NathanKell> That might be another easy add
<Pap> Yes it will, I never worried much about the rep for contracts as they didn't mean much
<NathanKell> Might hijack the 'MIA' tab for retirees, too.
<taniwha> assign them
<Pap> ^^^ That would be cool
<taniwha> don't think they need to actually be anywhere
<NathanKell> oh hmm
<Pap> Assign them to the Retirement Center?
<NathanKell> But then they'll show as assigned
<NathanKell> not 'separate tab'
<Thufir> does anyone know what config or mod lets you extend b9 procedural wings pas 16m? have it in my 113 install but not 1.2.2, trying to find it so I can remake my shuttle
<NathanKell> ask blowfish?
<taniwha> they're assigned to R&R
<NathanKell> when he gets here
<NathanKell> taniwha heh
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<leudaimon> o/
<NathanKell> o/ leudaimon
<taniwha> certainly more appropriate to MIA
<Pap> o/
<taniwha> er, than MIA
<NathanKell> Pap: I also agree with Maxsimal about records. There should definitely be more higher ones
<NathanKell> taniwha: Not if they retire *silently* :P
<leudaimon> rep is currently hideously high... it's easy to get to 70-80% just from first sat and crewed suborbital iirc
<taniwha> NathanKell: oh, this is for actual retirement?
<NathanKell> Yeah, never to be seen again.
<leudaimon> and this exponential way it works is not very straightforward
<taniwha> not quite what you said earlier, though
<NathanKell> Two different things
<taniwha> yeah
<NathanKell> one for R&R
<NathanKell> then also retirement
<NathanKell> (different thing)
<taniwha> retirement: MIA might make sense
<NathanKell> yeah
<NathanKell> that's what I thought ;)
<taniwha> R&R: assigned
<NathanKell> nope, 'inactive' for that
<NathanKell> That's why I made the status so robust
<taniwha> oh, there is one?
<NathanKell> they go inactive during high Gs
<Bornholio> after you take 500rem total lifetime = retirement
<NathanKell> but it's set to work for long-term too
<NathanKell> so you can set them inactive for a year if you like
<taniwha> never looked into that
<NathanKell> I wrote it that way with post-mission unavailability in mind :)
<taniwha> :)
<taniwha> good for Progeny, too
<leudaimon> sneaky NK
<NathanKell> Pap: For recosting things, see https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/490
<Qboid> [#490] title: Engine prices need fixing | Reason 1) gutsy-feely. Soviet launchers are so much cheaper than US hardware, this just can't be right.... | https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/issues/490
<NathanKell> and off I go!
<NathanKell> o/ all
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<awang> Anyone tried RSS Expansion on 1.2.2 or 1.3?
<github> RP-0/master 56da227 NathanKell: Preset update
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7Br6
<lamont> regex i think
<Pap> Hypergolic_Skunk just tried it today awang
<awang> Hypergolic_Skunk: ^?
<Pap> He is sleeping right now, but he played wiht RSS Expansion today
<Starwaster> Sarbian NathanKell|AFK is it fair to say there is no longer any reason for intake management? Is there some benefit to closing them at all?
<awang> Oh
<Starwaster> anyone else have an opinion?
<awang> I need to read the scrollback more carefully...
<Starwaster> dammit Nathan is gone
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<ProjectThoth> see lanch
<Rokker> ProjectThoth: rossiya
<ProjectThoth> wre
<ProjectThoth> Sorry, just came back to the sea launch page.
<ProjectThoth> *discussion
<taniwha> Starwaster: with FAR, closing intakes has always been a detriment
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<taniwha> (reason: closing intakes blocks the air from flowing through the engine, causing the that air to flow around the plane thus increasing the drag)
<taniwha> ask ferram4 for details
<taniwha> (or corrections:)
<ferram4> That is correct. Technically also happens when the engines throttle down.
<taniwha> throttled down would still be better than closed, though, right?
<awang> Are mods in general backwards compatible?
<Pap> awang: almost never
<awang> :(
<xShadowx> NathanKell|AFK: for crew on 'vaca' after a mission, was a mod that already did that, but i forgot which one x.x seem to remember it auto assinged crew too - might be a decent starting point if i can find name :|
* xShadowx goes googling
<awang> Are parts backwards compatible?
<Pap> awang: Sometimes
<Pap> xShadowx: It is a LinuxGuruGamer mod
<Pap> NK says he created an easier way to do it in the source
<taniwha> xShadowx: better starting point: KerbalStats ;)
<awang> Hm
<awang> Have segfaults been an issue in 1.2.2?
<xShadowx> ah CrewQueue is what i was thinkin of
<xShadowx> http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/97702-10x-crewqueue-crew-rotation-and-vacations/
<xShadowx> dang that was a while ago
<xShadowx> 1.0
<Pap> xShadowx: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/159299-13-crew-rr-crew-rest-rotation/
<taniwha> only last year
<xShadowx> new mods i been too busy to catch -.-
<ProjectThoth> Any good engine protection strategies besides retropropulsion?
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<Rokker> ProjectThoth: ok so
<Rokker> ProjectThoth: what if you take the fairing
<ProjectThoth> P H A L AN X
<Rokker> rotate it 360 degrees
<Rokker> and cover the egnine with it
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* Nothing much yet, but the first few launches have been completed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KmEh3ckuOhUhH-GCw294F4dXr9lMCz3X8fYDqbBQKfE/edit?usp=sharing
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Pap> !tell Maxs* Nothing much yet, but the first few launches have been completed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KmEh3ckuOhUhH-GCw294F4dXr9lMCz3X8fYDqbBQKfE/edit?usp=sharing
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<leudaimon> Pap|AFK, have build times been greatly reduced? the values in your spreadsheet seem very very low...
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<Rounan> hey, question about the geosync network contract. I picked the 4-satellite version. Is there a way to un-set the 2nd satellite?
<Rounan> I managed to set 1 & 2 as opposed, and now I can't get a stable network.
<Bornholio> not really but if you adjust them and any set of four work then it completes
<Bornholio> don't worry about which one it calls 1-4 just have them arranged correctly and communicating
<Bornholio> and also make sure to have enough ground coverage
<Rounan> they are! I have 4 sats in decent positions, all connected properly. But it wants 2 pairs to be communicating thru the earth
<Rounan> so the connections can't be done. haven't managed 2 days solid.
<Pap|AFK> leudaimon: I don't know actually
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<Bornholio> .poke ^ this guy maybe he knows
<Pap> Rounan: Try going away from the craft for a little bit. Launch a new mission, oftentimes that mission will click over as completed. There is something funky with the way RT data is being read
<Rounan> huh, ok will do.
<leudaimon> I never managed to get them completed...
<Rokker> hey so
<Rokker> anyone know what causes the black cockpit models
<Rokker> and how to fix it
<awang> Does Final Frontier work with RO/RP-0?
<Pap> leudaimon: to answer your question, yes, I believe that the Build times were reduced dramitcally as there is much longer rollout times now
<Pap> awang: As far as I remember, there are no ribbons setup for RSS
<leudaimon> Pap, but even though, my WACs and WAC-Corporals usually have a week of build time, with something about 0.75 BP/s
<Pap> leudaimon: send a tell to NK, See what changes he made (there were a lot)
<leudaimon> sure... I just raise that because maybe upgrading the VAB may become unnecessary the way things are
<leudaimon> !tell NathanKell* I saw Pap's launch costs spreadsheet, and build times look too fast. A WAC in less than 2 days with 0.6 BP/s is too fast isn't it?
<Qboid> leudaimon: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Rounan> Pap, how does communication coverage work? Or is that the thing that's spotty?
<Pap> Rounan: That is the thing that is currently spotty. Sometimes it works perfectly, other times it does not
<Pap> What antennas do you have on your satellites?
<Rounan> is it expected that 4x Reflectron KR7s at roughly 90deg, pointed at earth, would do the trick?
<Pap> How are you communicating with the other satellites?
<Rokker> i just respawned a kerbal
<Rounan> I have 3 or 4 dishes on each sat
<Pap> Gotcha
<Rokker> because screw that, running out of oxygen 15 km up
<Rounan> always 2 for neighbours and one for earth
<Rokker> wearing a spacesuit
<leudaimon> totally out of topic Pap, but why would you take 4 bio samples in a sounding rocket?
<Pap> I forgot that in RP-0, the 4th one (bio sample from ground) is unused
<leudaimon> oh, I see :]
<Pap> Brain was shut-off, just playing some KSP, forgot I need to pay more attention to that in RP-0 :)
<leudaimon> well, A-4 is usually very overpowered to take some Biosamples into space, so you probably was good
<Pap> Yeah, I have run through the Sounding Rockets part of the career so many damn times. I just want to get to attempt a Moon Landing and then look to go uncrwed to Mars. I've never attempted either in RO and my careers keep getting corrupted or I restart for testing, etc
<leudaimon> I have had this problem for a loooong time
<Pap> :)
<leudaimon> actually, I think my RIS career is the most advanced I have ever been
<leudaimon> have probes going for all inner planets, plus jupiter, a space station, and on my way for a lunar landing
<Rokker> i just hit my rato boosters at a solid 30 m/s
<Pap> I have sent a probe to Jupiter before, that was a lot of fun
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<leudaimon> hopefully I'll be able to insert into orbit with most of those (no hope for mercury of course)
<leudaimon> I still want to make it to wheels to launch some rovers... those are so far away in the old tech tree
<Pap> lol, they are?
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<Rokker> NathanKell|AFK: ah, just a short flight away https://snag.gy/uI5SYe.jpg
<leudaimon> yeah, can't open ksp now to check, but they are beyond crewed lunar landers by quite a lot
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<leudaimon> o/
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<github> RealismOverhaul/master 94f1b64 raidernick: fix gem booster values
<github> [RealismOverhaul] raidernick pushed 26 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7BM0
<github> RealismOverhaul/master 4bfc3bd raidernick: RN ULA fixes...
<github> RealismOverhaul/master f483635 raidernick: remove broken craft file for now
<github> [RealismOverhaul] raidernick pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7BMz
<github> RealismOverhaul/master e0917c2 Simon Martin: Support for p5 truss piece
<github> RealismOverhaul/master d9b13ac raidernick: Merge pull request #1734 from smo351/CxAerospace_StationParts_p5Truss...
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<Rokker> Bornholio: you wouldnt happen to be awake
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<Raidernick> ferram4, you around?
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<NathanKell> o/
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 03:39:46]: "Nothing much yet, but the first few launches have been completed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KmEh3ckuOhUhH-GCw294F4dXr9lMCz3X8fYDqbBQKfE/edit?usp=sharing"
<Qboid> NathanKell: leudaimon left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 04:09:00]: "I saw Pap's launch costs spreadsheet, and build times look too fast. A WAC in less than 2 days with 0.6 BP/s is too fast isn't it?"
<NathanKell> !tell Pap* in future can you track both part cost and launch ("rollout") cost?
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell Pap* Oops I misread.
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell Pap* ok I am now officially confused. How is a WAC costing 165 funds? How is a V-2 costing 1529 or more?
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell Pap* also how did you afford that many BP/sec? Did you sink nearly all your initial points into VAB? I put BP/sec on the same early sliding scale as science so it shouldn't have mounted that fast unless you basically went all out.
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell leudaimon,Pap yeah those times are too short.
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> !tell leudaimon,Pap What I did was greatly reduce the 'fixed cost' that used to make even sounding rockets take a while--now it's closer to linear. But I need to up it...
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Rokker> NathanKell: you
<NathanKell> Rokker: thee
<NathanKell> (or thou, probably)
<Rokker> NathanKell: is this a good fake album cover or nah http://i.imgur.com/kpEaSUq.jpg
<NathanKell> Hah
<Rokker> NathanKell: would you buy that album
<Rokker> or consider pirating it
<NathanKell> No. But I have...individual tastes.
<NathanKell> Hehe
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<NathanKell> I mean, Navy. But still nah
<NathanKell> Feels too heavy
<Rokker> NathanKell: the F-4 is in the black aces, hence the band name
<ferram4> Raidernick, yes?
<NathanKell> Rokker: Oh, indeed. Got that. :)
<NathanKell> Rokker: I know my VFs.
<NathanKell> (not like them filthy TFS crap)
<Rokker> shoo
<NathanKell> ^_^
<NathanKell> Groups? What is this, the RAF?
<Rokker> NathanKell: i was gonna do one for this called the rising sun https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/F-4B_VF-111_dropping_bombs_on_Vietnam.jpg
<Rokker> but then i remembered what their name was
<NathanKell> Yeah...
<NathanKell> I still say probably the height of USN squadron colors were the CAG birds from the bicentennial
<NathanKell> airplane%20picture%20by%20Michael%20Grove%2C%20Sr-XL.jpg
<NathanKell> <3 hivis
<github> [RealismOverhaul] raidernick opened pull request #1744: RN quick reflection remove (master...master) https://git.io/v7BQu
<Raidernick> NathanKell, is there any real difference between an s-3 and lr-79
<ferram4> The S-3 should have a cone-shaped nozzle. The S-3D looks pretty much like an LR-79.
<Raidernick> were they developed completely independently or was one based on the other?
<ferram4> LR-79 is based on the S-3D.
<ferram4> And the LR-79 and LR-89 have basically the same thrust chamber.
<NathanKell> Raidernick: S-3D and LR79, no. S-3, yes, it was lower thrust.
<Raidernick> NathanKell, i meant s-3d the juno II engine
<Raidernick> because of that and the thor
<NathanKell> Ah, then yeah, S-3D is basically the early LR79.
<NathanKell> Thor had S-3 originally
<Raidernick> well not the versions I'm using
<Raidernick> icbm version yeah prob
<Raidernick> or mrbm
<NathanKell> That engine config file has our best numbers on all LR79 variants.
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<Raidernick> was the s-3 used on any orbital launcher variants?
<Raidernick> or just s-3d
<NathanKell> Not to my knowledge.
<NathanKell> well, not to *Ed's* knowledge :D
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<Raidernick> NathanKell, i see there is no lr79 na 7
<Raidernick> is that because it's identical to s-3d?
<NathanKell> According to b143... it was the designation given to the H-1.
<NathanKell> (which started life as a modification of the LR79, at about the time -7 would have been the next designation)
<Raidernick> holy crap you actually have the same damn mix rate for a change
<Raidernick> so it won't screw over my craft files
<Raidernick> if i change to the generic ones
<NathanKell> heh
<Raidernick> you don't plan on changing these mix rates anytime soon i hope?
<NathanKell> We do not. :)
<NathanKell> Speaking of--are we missing any global configs for R-7 variants that you need?
<NathanKell> Because if possible I'd like to harmonize there, since otherwise RP-0 has a lot of trouble.
<NathanKell> R-7 engines I mean
<Raidernick> probably
<Raidernick> i haven't checked
<NathanKell> ok
<Raidernick> those were the only rockets i never wanted to move over
<NathanKell> I noticed your config names are different from the others
<NathanKell> and that kinda screws over RP-0 :]
<Raidernick> because i don't want to redo the fuel mixes on 50 tanks
<Raidernick> for a 0.001 change
<NathanKell> Hey, at that point I'd just change the global configs :P
<Raidernick> then i gotta redo 100 craft files and subassemblies
<Raidernick> i will use the generic configs if you promise not to change the mix rates
<Raidernick> especially since a lot of these engines have little to no data
<Raidernick> i think i gota most of the info off that b124321432 site
<Raidernick> NathanKell, just to be clear I'm not against people changing my config files per se
<Raidernick> i'm against them changing the mix rates in my files then NOT updating any of the fucking tanks of craft files or subassemblies
<Raidernick> and leaving me to do 99% of the work
<Raidernick> it's BS
<NathanKell> Yep, I gotcha :)
<NathanKell> yeah
<Raidernick> so if someone wants to change that they have to commit and do EVERYTHING
<Raidernick> not just 1 thing
<NathanKell> Yeah
<Raidernick> do we have thrust values for the s-3 and lr79 turbopump exhauts
<Raidernick> exhausts*
<Raidernick> i made up values for them and subtracted it from the engine thrust
<Raidernick> if I use this engine config it most likely includes those thrusts in it
<Raidernick> which isn't good
<Raidernick> NathanKell, this is generally why i don't use the generic configs
<Raidernick> i always separate all my engines into the parts
<NathanKell> Engine configs support verniers now
<Raidernick> these don't
<Raidernick> it's not a vernier
<Raidernick> it's just the exhaust
<NathanKell> You just have to add a line to your cfg
<NathanKell> right after you set engineType
<Raidernick> what is it
<Raidernick> and what does it do
<NathanKell> example:
<NathanKell> %engineType = RD0105
<NathanKell> %useVerniers = True
<NathanKell> %vernierThrust = 0.5
<Raidernick> what does that do
<Raidernick> subtract that thrust from it?
<NathanKell> That means subtract 0.5kN from the thrust of the engine, and you supply your own second ModuleEngines of 0.5kn thrust
<Raidernick> ok but the vernier is not on the same part
<NathanKell> that's fine
<NathanKell> All those lines mean are "subtract this much from the thrust"
<Raidernick> does 9kN seem reasonable for a large exhaust like on lr79?
<NathanKell> That's too much IMO
<NathanKell> Actually
<NathanKell> hmm
<NathanKell> lemme check
<NathanKell> I can find out
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<NathanKell> argh, the LV handbook has it for Titan but not Thor.
<NathanKell> However I know I've seen where they break it down.
<NathanKell> It'll be in Pap's archive
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<NathanKell> So, Titan I for its two engines (each roughly equivalent to the LR79) has 600 lbf of exahust.
<NathanKell> So that's more like 1.4kN thrust at sea level
<NathanKell> Probably more like 1.5kN in vacuum
<Raidernick> that seems awful low for an exhaust as big as it is
<Raidernick> that's less than the lr101
<Raidernick> right
<NathanKell> The lr101 is a rocket engine
<NathanKell> this is just exhaust
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<Raidernick> so i'll try 1.5 then
<Raidernick> NathanKell, back to what you mentionned earlier i don't want to get involved with the r-7 engines right now
<NathanKell> yeah, if anything it might be high since the chamber pressure is lower on Thor...
<NathanKell> That's fair enough
<Raidernick> i saw there was a pr to make it testflight compatible anyway
<Raidernick> and it appears to work
<NathanKell> Yeah, more checking if you'd be ok with it as long as someone else did the work :]
<NathanKell> *all* the work.
<Raidernick> well personally i hate testflight
<Raidernick> so i'm never going to go out of my way to make my stuff compatible
<Raidernick> if he wants to do it i'm fine with it though
<Raidernick> so NathanKell if you want to look over that PR and see if it looks all good
<Raidernick> that should fix any testflight issues with it for now
<NathanKell> The issue is more on the tree side
<NathanKell> not the TF side
<NathanKell> I'm talking RP-0, not TF
<NathanKell> It's due to the config names being different
<Raidernick> will changing the names but leaving everything else as is fix it?
<Raidernick> because if that's the case i can just run a search and replace in all the files and crafts and such
<NathanKell> *if* the configs match ours that is.
<NathanKell> if you don't have, e.g., more or fewer than the globals
<Raidernick> i probably have more
<NathanKell> And if their performance matches (or matches within a percent or so)
<NathanKell> but if *that's* true, then you should just use the globals anyway :)
<Raidernick> I've added pretty much every single one that ever existed during that era
<NathanKell> Ah, k
<NathanKell> We might have skipped one
<NathanKell> I'll have to compare
<Raidernick> NathanKell, how do i set the default config for the generic configs for an engine
<Raidernick> also how do i change the mass again to account for the exhaust mass
<NathanKell> the exhaust mass?
<NathanKell> And to set the default config, you do a pass AFTER the engine configging that changes the config = whatever line
<NathanKell> but why would you want to change the default?
<NathanKell> is the global default not good?
<Raidernick> you said the s-3 was never used orbitally
<Raidernick> i don't want it defaulting to an engine you'll never use for my part
<Raidernick> it should always be s-3d
<Raidernick> exhaust mass as in the mass of the parts i'm attaching to the engine that would be counted as part of it's total dry mass
<Raidernick> like the turbopump exhaust nozzle
<Raidernick> verniers
<Raidernick> etc...
<NathanKell> How about we fix the default globally and then you don't have to deal with overriding?
<NathanKell> as for the other, lemme look up the syntax.
<NathanKell> `massOffset = tonnes_of_mass_to_offset`
<NathanKell> i.e. -0.5 if yours should be 0.5t lighter than the global config says
<Raidernick> NathanKell, also if I remove the s-3 and s-3d configs for the lr79 engine
<Raidernick> does it default to the next top config in the list?
<NathanKell> Please don't.
<Raidernick> ?
<NathanKell> Then people won't be able to use your engine in RP-0 until mid career
<Raidernick> they shouldn't be able to
<NathanKell> and we'll have to go through *considerable* hijinx to make it unlock correctly
<Raidernick> i have 2 engines
<Raidernick> an s-3 and an lr79
<NathanKell> ah
<Raidernick> it's not the same model
<NathanKell> Ok
<NathanKell> Then look at how we handle the SSTU XLR81.
<NathanKell> That's the same case.
<NathanKell> SSTU has two XLR81 models
<Raidernick> also they won't be able to use the engine by itself anyway
<NathanKell> one for A/B and one for D and above.
<Raidernick> it's made to fit into my juno II body
<Raidernick> and that only
<Raidernick> it won't work with anything else
<NathanKell> you'd be surprised what people do :]
<Raidernick> some of the parts have reversed normals though
<Raidernick> so you'd be able to see through it
<Raidernick> it's to prevent z-fighting on the body
<Raidernick> but it's usually covered
<Raidernick> lol
<Raidernick> also all the sources I see say the thor used the lr-79-na-7
<Raidernick> which isn't an h1
<Raidernick> so that config doesn't exist
<Raidernick> NathanKell, it says the dm 18/19 tank used the lr-79-na-7 and the dm-21 used the mb-3-1(which is the na-9)
<NathanKell> So the LR79-NA-7 must be a S-3D with non-gimbaling exhaust?
<NathanKell> Wonder what the -1, -3, and -5 were then
<Raidernick> i don't know but if they are the same can we change the config name to reflect it covers both those engines
<Raidernick> if someone is trying to recreate it and doesn't see that config they will be confused
<NathanKell> Makes sense. Where do you see it listed as -7?
<Raidernick> wikipedia, astronautix and i'm checking that german site now
<NathanKell> Astronautix has been usually *very* wrong about LR79s.
<NathanKell> And wikipedia is, AFAIK, soruced from there
<NathanKell> We started out following nautix's data and had to redo it
<NathanKell> since the actual NASA and USAF docs contradicted it
<Raidernick> NathanKell, the german site doesn't even use those names
<Raidernick> it uses the mb-* names
<Raidernick> i have nothing to compare them to
<NathanKell> ^
<NathanKell> that has them by LR79 designation
<Raidernick> i'l just assume it used the lr-79-9 then
<Raidernick> since that's the lowest end version for thor
<NathanKell> eh?
<NathanKell> No, that's the third one for Thor.
<NathanKell> Hence MB-3.
<Raidernick> it's mb-3-I
<NathanKell> Yeah, preceded by MB-1 and MB-2.
<Raidernick> mb-3-II is the 11
<Raidernick> and the 3 is 13
<Raidernick> hence the mb-3-I is the lowest
<Raidernick> which is the lr79-na-9
<NathanKell> It's the lowest MB-3.
<Raidernick> yes
<NathanKell> It's not the lowest engine Thor had.
<Raidernick> it's the lowest any of the orbital versions had
<NathanKell> I thought Thor-Able had MB-2.
<Raidernick> no
<Raidernick> only the ablestar
<Raidernick> it used a dm-21 tank
<Raidernick> the others all used dm-18 or 19
<Raidernick> which used mb3 1
<NathanKell> Ah, huh
<Raidernick> i don't see anything using the mb-3-III
<Raidernick> no idea what that's for
<Raidernick> but yes the s-3 should default to s-3d
<Raidernick> you always say only the orbital rockets matter right
<Raidernick> hence why you wouldn't let me add white sands to RSS
<NathanKell> Those are...not at all related.
<NathanKell> RSS has a policy of only orbital launch sites.
<NathanKell> That has nothing to do with "only the orbital rockets matter"
<NathanKell> The entire starting game of RP-0 is sounding rockets.
<Raidernick> well unless someone is making a juno icbm they won't be using the s-3 right
<Raidernick> s-3d has to be unlocked pretty early
<NathanKell> You can easily make an orbital launch vehicle with Thor/S-3.
<NathanKell> And people should be allowed to, if they want to risk failure due to high failure chance
<Raidernick> the payload capacity must be miniscule though
<NathanKell> (S-3 is the 135klbf one)
<NathanKell> Eh? You definitely have seocnd stages
<NathanKell> It's not *that* much worse than Thor-Able.
<NathanKell> Thor-Able is overthrusted so 135klbf doesn't hurt that bad
<taniwha> gotta wonder what it means to be Thored (I always misread Thor-Able)
<Raidernick> thorad is a thing
<taniwha> "this rocket is Thor-able" "how do you Thor a rocket?"
<Raidernick> goddamnit why do these engines have to have a gimbal axis defined
<Raidernick> now i have to undefine it
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<Tyaedalis> taniwha: lol
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<Raidernick> NathanKell, is it responseSpeed orgimbalResponseSpeed
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<Raidernick> or*
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<NathanKell> the latter IIRC
<NathanKell> not positive
<github> [RP-0] NathanKell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7BNt
<github> RP-0/master 0742eb4 NathanKell: Tweak new preset further to correct BP/sec, BP, and reconditioning values. Upload xls I used to help.
<NathanKell> oy, it's 1:30
<NathanKell> night!
<NathanKell> !tell Pap,leudaimon I tweaked the preset.
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Tyaedalis> hey, can anybody provide me with the internal name for LH2?
<Tyaedalis> just missed NathanKell...
<Tyaedalis> nvm, found it
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<Pena> It's always fun when your upper stage engine lights as soon as you get on the pad and have not staged anything...
<Hypergolic_Skunk> sounds like an eager stage :p
<Pena> luckily this was a restartable AJ10 and not a bunch of solids like last time.. :D
<dxdy> are there any RO-like mods that improve the out-of-spaceflight part of the game? (basically what I'm looking for is the dynamics of Railroad Tycoon 3, if anyone remembers that). So stuff like a newspaper / some restrictions on RTG's based on political climate / lasting consequences of loss of people that kind of thing
<gazpachian> dxdy, there have been a couple of half-hearted efforts to get something like that working I recall, but for now it's easier to just roleplay all political aspects
<gazpachian> For a super realistic political simulation, reset your space program budget every four to eight years!
<dxdy> :D mkay
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> lamont: are you present?
<gazpachian> But something like that is probably going to be needed at some point, since right now it is WAY cheaper to develop and use the RD-270M than the F1 for heavy lift vehicles. But you wouldn't, because a RUD of a pentaborane fueled kiloton rocket -> lethal toxicity around the launch site for a couple decades.
<dxdy> yep, that sort of thing was why I was wondering whether there'd be something that forces this particular playstyle
<Maxsimal|Work> We're moving to address that in some fashion, by increasing rollout costs of toxic fuels
<Qboid> Maxsimal|Work: Pap left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 02:15:18]: "So the error with the Sounding Rocket contracts happens until you reach the Karman Line. They are trying to generate, but cannot parse the details needed"
<Qboid> Maxsimal|Work: Pap left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 03:39:56]: "Nothing much yet, but the first few launches have been completed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KmEh3ckuOhUhH-GCw294F4dXr9lMCz3X8fYDqbBQKfE/edit?usp=sharing"
<Maxsimal|Work> !tell Pap: Huh odd, they're supposed to be gated by Karman. But I'll put in a fix, won't be hard, just gotta sort my issue with updating my fork.
<Qboid> Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Maxsimal|Work: o/
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<Maxsimal|Work> Hi Hypergolic
<gazpachian> Maxsimal|Work: That's a good first step, but toxic propellants are also a bit like playing Russian roulette in that you get away with it until you don't!
<dxdy> events would be cool, like severe backslash if your rtg-fuelled craft burns up / crashes in a neighboring country or something like that
<gazpachian> Would be neat to balance it so you could potentially use things like the RD-270M to get your milestones faster, but a vehicle failure could be the end of your space program
<Maxsimal|Work> gazpachian: Depends on toxicity, some are toxic but decompose in a reasonable time period. I didn't say it was a perfect solution.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> !tell lamont I know you keep on saying that PEG doesn't consider the atmosphere, but why doesn't it respect its own setting 'start pitch program after X seconds' ?
<Qboid> Hypergolic_Skunk: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Maxsimal|Work> Gazpachian: And RD-270M would never realistically be used, even the Russians weren't crazy enough to actually try to fly it, the performance benefit is not high enough to be worth it.
<gazpachian> It's way better than what's implemented at the moment at least. :)
<Maxsimal|Work> Gazpachian: Well yeah. There are still some issues, system isn't ready to look at a procedural tank at run time and assign a multiplier based off of what it's filled with
<gazpachian> I heard an anecdote where Glushko said "It's no problem, Chelomei's rockets are safe, they'll never explode!" followed by I think three failed Proton launches
<Maxsimal|Work> !tell Pap: How is your Bumper-WAC so expensive? Also I would have expected rollout costs to be higher for all the V-2's. NK's tuning has a 5x multiplier on liquid turbo engines, rollout should be 750 from the A-4 alone.
<Qboid> Maxsimal|Work: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<gazpachian> But in either case we should probably be glad it wasn't pursued further! :P
<Maxsimal|Work> Most likely, though a rocket ascending on a pillar of green fire would be damn cool.
<gazpachian> "Hundreds died! It's one of the worst environmental disasters of our age! What were you thinking?!" "... At least it looked pretty cool!"
<Maxsimal|Work> Yeah that sounds more like North Korea than the USSR :P
<gazpachian> True, wouldn't surprise me when that whole mess gets declassified if they've been playing around with some really wicked propellants
<Maxsimal|Work> Oh wait, no, how many people died building the stuff for Sochi? :P
<Maxsimal|Work> Qatar is doing the same thing for the World Cup - so it's not exactly unprecedented in recent history
<gazpachian> Yeah, and they're not even bothering with the classification on that one
<gazpachian> The planet is pretty messed up, time to evacuate.
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<SlainteMaith> Is RSS broken if you force opengl?
<SlainteMaith> Only I'm trying to mess with opengl with 1.2.2 and I only have RSS installed at the moment. The main screen's planet is an empty blue sphere.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> are you using RSSVE?
<SlainteMaith> Haven't installed that yet, nope.
<SlainteMaith> It literally is just RSS and it's dependencies.
<SlainteMaith> Hrm. Screwiness. Seems I did something wrong. If I switch back to d3d, I get kerbin, not earth.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I guess you also don't use scatterer now?
<SlainteMaith> Nope. Sec. I'm trying again from scratch.
<SlainteMaith> I think I've had this issue before and it was me being a moron.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> join the club :)
<SlainteMaith> Thankfully, KSP is fast enough to reinstall from scratch. Well. Until you -really- start modding it.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> yeah, sometimes installation is quicker than starting up the game :p
<SlainteMaith> Nope.
<SlainteMaith> It doesn't work. Which is odd.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> did you install RSS and the required mods manually?
<SlainteMaith> Okay. So d3d works, but opengl doesn't. Which is -really- screwy.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah
<SlainteMaith> ckan.
<Pena> whoa, principia is different from stock gravity... :D
<Pena> That's not "quite" the orbit I was aiming for.
<SlainteMaith> I'm guessing it's either far higher than you thought, or you're a pancake.
<Pena> I go above geostationary so I make a funny S-bend and come back in the other direction
<Pena> makes sense, though
<SlainteMaith> Anyway, I suspect my issue might be a job for NathanKell. Who (I hope) is sleeping.
<Pena> just looks funny when I'm used to the stock circles
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pena: got a pic?
<Pena> sure
<Hypergolic_Skunk> SlainteMaith: yeah sounds like it. if D3D works fine and OpenGL doesn't, you probably did not mess up during installation :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pena: oh my. Principia is definitely on my list
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<Pena> Hypergolic_Skunk: It's... like doing heroine after stock :D
<Pena> not that I ever tried, but think fear and loathing in las vegas
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ^
<Hypergolic_Skunk> how do you do stock, though - smoke, eat, inject?
<Pena> work-eat-play-sleep-repeat
<Pena> now I'm really interested in getting a proper geostationary up and seeing how the orbit bends and twists just before it circles in onto itself
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<awang> Have segfaults been an issue for anyone?
<SlainteMaith> Not for me, no.
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<CobaltWolf> alright, question for y'all
<CobaltWolf> so, for the Atlas engines - the LR-89 and the LR-105. I wasn't planning on including 'tankbutts' persay, but I'd like to include something that is almost like the 'compact' engine design from porkjet's design sheet.
<awang> Hm
<CobaltWolf> that leaves them with a 'thick disk' that goes up into the part above them, but is only about as wide as the engine bell - in this case, about 0.625m diameter in base KSP.
<awang> I've been trying to run a RP-0 install, but KSP segfaults right before the title screen
<awang> Trying to git bisect it now, but wondering if it was a known issue
<Pena> awang: 1.2.2?
<Bornholio> cobalt wolf is it something that will turn on and off?
<awang> Pena: Yeah
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<CobaltWolf> Bornholio: well that's the thing, I'm not really thinking it would be necessary to have it turn off. I haven't modeled it in a way that makes the remaining hardware go up past that point. I *can*, but for stock building techniques that isn't necessary. that's why I'm checking here.
<CobaltWolf> It's not like it's, say, a 1m diameter engine with a 2m tankbutt attached y'know?
<Bornholio> then they should be fine, if they function like shrouds then the tend to wander off when you leave and return to a craft
<Pena> awang: can't say about segfaults but I had to hand-pick a bunch of mods to make sure they are not too new (e.g. 1.2.2 compatible) before I'd get to the loading screen.
<Bornholio> I prefer clean tops without rings, but thats just my opinion there isn't anything wrong with them
<Bornholio> Tank butts however are my enemy :P
<CobaltWolf> Bornholio: it'll be more like a plate that the lines feed through and the gimbals anchor to
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<CobaltWolf> obv on this specific example, the Atlas, the sustainer's lines just wrap all around that conical bottom part of the tank assembly
<CobaltWolf> but that's not kosher for KSP with all the lego-ness
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<Bornholio> are you modelling assembly bars in the 105 bottom? https://i.pinimg.com/736x/02/96/4b/02964bc2445debdcc5302d98fdd62f1a--spacecraft-rockets.jpg
<awang> Pena: Do you remember any of those mods?
<awang> I also installed most things through CKAN, so in theory versions should be correct
<awang> I see a lot of mixed opinions about CKAN though
<CobaltWolf> Bornholio: not sure what you mean. Thought looking at those pics I can see my proportions are buggered but IIRC that was somewhat on purpose because I wanted it to look a specific way, aka didn't want the LR-105 to be huge compared to the boosters for non-canon builds
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<Pena> awang: CKAN gave me a bunch of rather miscellaneous versions
<Bornholio> you have four channels dropping alongside the lr-105 i had seen things like that in assembly photos, but they were yellow meaning assembly rigging that was not part of rocket
<dxdy> I used ckan quite recently for a complete reinstall of all the mods I use, apart from download time it took all of 5 minutes and everything worked perfectly (apart from a two mods that had to be copied over manually because they weren#t on there), so a positive opinion from me^^
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<Pena> awang: I can post the AVC list of mods the next time I restart
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<CobaltWolf> Bornholio: I've seen them in pictures of flight Atlases, including ones taken from pod cameras just after MECO. they're rails for ensuring a clean/straight separation
<Bornholio> yeah i assume so. not sure why they colored them that way in the few pictures i saw of assemblies
<awang> Pena: Sure. Hopefully the overlap is great enough that the list would be useful
<awang> I'd be pretty disappointed if CKAN was giving me mods that were too new...
<Bornholio> CKAN has done that before
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<awang> Bornholio: Bad news:(
<awang> I should also go see if I can't make CKAN's files more git-friendly
<awang> Trailing commas are evil
<Bornholio> lol, well report them in the appropriate git or thread
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<awang> idk
<awang> How bad is putting commas at the beginning of a line in json files?
<Pena> awang: Here's the KSPAVC modlist (plus persistent rotation) from my install http://petti.kapsi.fi/random/KSP/modlist.txt and here's the staff I got from ckan: http://petti.kapsi.fi/random/KSP/RSSmodlist.ckan
<Pena> seems to work.. mostly :-)
<Pena> and now I must make haste to leave this physical location for another->
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<awang> Pena: Thanks!
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<Pap> o/
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:04:47]: "in future can you track both part cost and launch ("rollout") cost?"
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:09:09]: "also how did you afford that many BP/sec? Did you sink nearly all your initial points into VAB? I put BP/sec on the same early sliding scale as science so it shouldn't have mounted that fast unless you basically went all out."
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:04:57]: "Oops I misread."
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:06:23]: "ok I am now officially confused. How is a WAC costing 165 funds? How is a V-2 costing 1529 or more?"
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:09:35]: "yeah those times are too short."
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 07:10:09]: "What I did was greatly reduce the 'fixed cost' that used to make even sounding rockets take a while--now it's closer to linear. But I need to up it..."
<Qboid> Pap: NathanKell left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 08:37:16]: "I tweaked the preset."
<Pap> And this is why I get frustrated with IRC, my client booted me at 1:00 AM yesterday and I now missed all of that backchat, grrrrrr
<Hypergolic_Skunk> \o
<Bornholio> want me to post it to a file for you?
<Pap> Bornholio: if you have it easily accessible, that would be great
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap: ... you could use IRCcloud and pay those 4 bucks :p
<Bornholio> crap i removed the names
<Bornholio> oh good it didn't format sucks though
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<Pap> Thanks Bornholio!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh wow, Bornholio, despite one of three S1 engines failing, clicking 'Reinitialize Stage Analysis' and staging S1 sep/S2 ignition manually made PEG recover.
<Maxsimal|Work> o/ Pap
<Bornholio> had 5 engine failures before and still made orbit
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<Pap|IRCcloudTest> Thanks Bornholio that was helpful
<Maxsimal|Work> Pap: Odd, I left you a couple of messages about your data as well that I didn't see pop up.
<Pap|IRCcloudTest> Hey Maxsimal|Work
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<Qboid> Pap|Sleep: Hypergolic_Skunk left a message for you in #RO [16.07.2017 09:36:50]: "if you help me fix the Launch Pad upgrade issue, I will gladly provide your Sunday morning KSP stream :p"
<Pap|Sleep> o/
<Qboid> Pap|Sleep: Hypergolic_Skunk left a message for you in #RO [29.07.2017 13:19:02]: "hey, am I doing something wrong if my craft the GeoStationary Satellite contract (just a single sat) with 3443 units of ComSatBus ends up a 500+ ton monster? :P"
<Pap|Sleep> There are some, not what we are looking for
<Maxsimal|Work> Oh yeah - cause I only left them for 'Pap' :P
<Hypergolic_Skunk> wut? kind of long ago ^
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<Pap> hmmm
<Pap> Damn you Hypergolic_Skunk, this IRCcloud is really nice
<Hypergolic_Skunk> the convenience factor is real
<Maxsimal|Work> 3443 units of camsat is almost 700kg - but shouldn't need a 500 ton launcher for GSO - maybe 200tons.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Maxsimal|Work: uhm. that's including three stages, and lots of RCS for stationkeeping
<Pap> !tell NathanKell* I put all but 2 of my starting points into BP's (always do it this way) then I put the rest I gain into Research
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal|Work> Hypergolic_Skunk: Ok yeah fair enough. 1+ ton to GSO including some inclination change there, probably reasonable to do 500 tons launcher.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> 'some inclination change' .. yeah, like just about 28 degrees :p
<Maxsimal|Work> Hypergolic_Skunk: Especially if it's all kerolox & storable propellant, no hydrolox.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> exactly :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk> it was indeed early tech. i'm sure later tech will do much better.
<Maxsimal|Work> Falcon 9 is only 5000kg to GTO, and it weighs bang on 500tons
<Hypergolic_Skunk> but yeah, also Kerolox
<Maxsimal|Work> yes - I wasn't comparing you to a Delta IV :P
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<Maxsimal|Work> Pap: Anyway, I wrote to you that I will take care of the issues with the sounding rocket contracts as soon as I figure out how to get my fork fixed w/GIT. I think I know what I failed to install
<Maxsimal|Work> Pap: Also wrote that I'm surprised your rollout costs weren't higher - I expected values much higher rollout - based off of NK's tuning, rollout for JUST the A-4 should be 750.
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<soundnfury> Maxsimal|Work: "shall I compare thee to a Delta IV"
<Maxsimal|Work> Expensive and frigid - sounds like some people I've known...
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> second launch of the human rendezvous contract... please dear lord of testflight, be nice
<soundnfury> Hypergolic_Skunk: the AGATHORN giveth and the AGATHORN taketh away. Blessed be the name of the AGATHORN.
<Maxsimal|Work> Ehh, until Agathron makes engines and whole rockets explode, he's not that mean.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> S1 burned without problems, oh thank you praised Agathorn! now for S2...
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Maxsimal|Work: engines can explode w/ testflight
<Hypergolic_Skunk> but yeah, it's no cascade reaction yet
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<Maxsimal|Work> Hyergolic_Skunk: Really? I've never had an engine explode.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> had several :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk> but yeah, plain failure and reduces thrust happen far more
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<Bornholio> pap i put all my initial bp into construction speed. The BP into tech until you have tech nodes to research area waste and you get science fast enough to that the BP from node purchases are enough to start
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<Rokker> Bornholio: ah good
<Rokker> Bornholio: i have a question for you
<Bornholio> no. Yes. Maybe.
<Rokker> Bornholio: so last night i was designing fake album covers
<Rokker> Bornholio: and i was wondering, would you buy this album http://imgur.com/kpEaSUq
<Bornholio> lol, nothin like water to stink up a tarmac
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<Rokker> Bornholio: well?
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<Bornholio> no. Yes. Maybe.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Pap|Away: just doing the Manned Rendezvous contract... (un)fortunately the contract recognizes the separated second stage of one of the rockets as rendezvous'ed, even before I launched the second rocket. which means that the second rocket only needs to orbit and return safely, for the contract to be fullfilled
<Bornholio> Rokker. people are bastards, bastard coated bastards with bastard filling. :)
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<NathanKell> o/
<Qboid> NathanKell: Pap left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 16:08:47]: "I put all but 2 of my starting points into BP's (always do it this way) then I put the rest I gain into Research"
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Please no :(((((
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: That will make radially mounting them super ugly.
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Porkjet only put those rings on his engines because he was also going to make buttless models of them.
<CobaltWolf> did you see the image I posted?
<regex> ohgodrings
<Qboid> regex: egg left a message for you in #principia [28.07.2017 23:30:34]: "if you answer perf questions on #principia again, tell them that the main perf issue at the moment is the history plotting, and that this will be probably resolved in the next version (next month)"
<Qboid> regex: egg|zzz|egg left a message for you in #principia [29.07.2017 11:08:01]: "also I asked you for your save where things were getting slow, friendly ping :-)"
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Yes
<Hypergolic_Skunk> hey NathanKell o/ thou asketh, thou receiveth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuoxCGK_z58
<NathanKell> It is indeed exactly like what Pork did for the "nuButts" style
<NathanKell> Hypergolic_Skunk yep watched last night :)
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: But it's still butts.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh, and did it help?
<NathanKell> yep!
<Hypergolic_Skunk> woohoo!
<NathanKell> Learned I had to set pad in the VAB
<CobaltWolf> NathanKell: so what's wrong with it though? If the alternative is to have it just jut out of a flat PP texture? :P Convince me haha
<NathanKell> !tell Maxsimal: for early rockets on early pads, launch costs are cheap
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<NathanKell> Pap|Away: Might be worth restarting the career with these changes (sorry)
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Try placing two of them radially on the tankbutt above you
<NathanKell> You will have flat thigns sticking out.
<NathanKell> The alternative is to run the tubing up a ways
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Think of how you'd do S-II with those engines.
<NathanKell> (or rather how you couldn't)
<CobaltWolf> On the Atlas sustainer tank?
<CobaltWolf> well so that's what it might look like without the plate
<CobaltWolf> either way you'd get weird clipping
<CobaltWolf> and the S-II is a bad example, BECAUSE it has places to mount the engines already https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/206472058228572162/341997572015128576/unknown.png
<CobaltWolf> it also has very bad AO and makes me cry
<NathanKell> Is that because you added the mount points tho?
<NathanKell> Didn't think the real one had those
<NathanKell> And yeah, like that, except longer tubing would be nice
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<NathanKell> Much mo betta
<CobaltWolf> so then the gimbal arms just float in space?
<NathanKell> if they all extend upwards enough they'll hit whatever is above you
<CobaltWolf> would have to be >1m long if you were trying to use them on the Atlas sustainer adapter, since that is a pretty steep part
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<NathanKell> yep
<CobaltWolf> but that specifically is probably a bad example since you'd wind up with other stuff in the way anyways...
<NathanKell> Even most buttless engines don't have long enough tubing and mounting bits, so you end up having to climp the pump into the tank above :\
<NathanKell> clip*
<NathanKell> Lack's (SXT's) AJ10 is probably the best of the lot
<CobaltWolf> and the issue is specifically because you want to be able to mount it on an angled boattail?
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<NathanKell> Well, that's true *any* time you want >1 engine on something
<NathanKell> and not boattail
<NathanKell> tank
<NathanKell> Well, boattail too I guess
<SlainteMaith> NathanKell: RSS + 1.2.2 + Force OpenGL = No-y Worky?
<NathanKell> SlainteMaith should be fine
<NathanKell> depends on your graphics card I guess
<SlainteMaith> Nope. Got an empty blue ball.
<NathanKell> So yeah, sounds like your graphics card doesn't play nice with OGL in KSP
<NathanKell> if opengl with RSS didn't work, none of our mac users or linux users could play RSS :P
<SlainteMaith> Geforce 1080 GTX.
<CobaltWolf> NathanKell: I see, you're saying for cases like this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/206472058228572162/341999670031155210/unknown.png
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Yep, although usually the tank dome is rather steeper, not so flat.
<NathanKell> At least for uppers trying to squeeze extra tank volume between the engines
<NathanKell> like, say, Centaur
<CobaltWolf> for the atlas it's about 2/3 the height of a true hemisphere just to make it seem more 'full'
<SlainteMaith> It's funny. So my gfx card can do d3d and I can use RSS--but that makes the Space Shuttle System parts look like ass. So I switch to opengl--which makes the planet look like ass. =)
<NathanKell> try -force-d3d11 ?
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<SlainteMaith> I suppose I could use dx9--but of course that makes everything run like ass.
<SlainteMaith> Force-d3d11 makes the shuttle parts break.
<CobaltWolf> NathanKell: but then again, you're left with... the pipes just go straight into the tank. no thrust structure, no distribution for the fuel (isn't it usually one outlet that is split between the engines?)
<SlainteMaith> At least on my card.
<SlainteMaith> Which I thought was a nice one when I bought it. =)
<NathanKell> SlainteMaith: Yeah, I confess myself confused, sorry :\
<SlainteMaith> Nothing for it. I think it's kinda funny, myself.
<NathanKell> CobaltWolf: Yeah. But we don't really have procedural thrust structure girders
<blowfish> pipes going right into the tank may be the best option in a lot of cases
<CobaltWolf> blowfish: I have that reference. to make it look like that, you'd wind up with something like the old FASA sustainer, where it's built into the tankbutt. Now, if that's what the people here want... :P
<blowfish> hmm
<blowfish> mounting could maybe be a switchable option?
<CobaltWolf> that's the obvious solution, but then I have to do extra modeling to account for both and I'm not sure it's worth it
<xShadowx> engines should be buttless, and if one is so inclined to see tankbutt, make a 2nd model, parts can hold multi model :| and you could prolly reuse said tankbutt model on other parts, saving work and not driving people crazy with forced tankbutt :|
<NathanKell> Basically, yes, per blowfish: Having the tubing and arms extend up isn't the *great*, by a long shot, but it's the best I can think of to allow multiple-radial-mounting without having to extend cylinders downward just to mount on.
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<NathanKell> s/ the \*/ */
<Qboid> NathanKell meant to say: Basically, yes, per blowfish: Having the tubing and arms extend up isn't *great*, by a long shot, but it's the best I can think of to allow multiple-radial-mounting without having to extend cylinders downward just to mount on.
<blowfish> what do the gimbal actuators even attach to on the real thing? I can't find any references that actually show it
<NathanKell> !tell Pap* one other thing we were going to look at: redistributing relative node cost within an era. So e.g. staged combustion might be a bit more expensive than regular rocketry, and hydrolox rather more expensive; airplane stuff might be cheaper; etc.
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<CobaltWolf> NathanKell: also, I was looking at the PJ engines earlier, I don't think they were modeled in a way that was conductive to being buttless. unless you really mean just getting rid of that ring and still having the layout be the full width of the engine size
<NathanKell> It's been a while so I don't quite recall how he planned to do it but he did plan to. From the ground up they were planned to radially attach well
<blowfish> yeah, Porkjet would have just made the rings smaller
<blowfish> I managed to hack together a mountless version of the LV-T15. AO is kinda off though
<NathanKell> I thought I recalled him planning a ring less version when we were planning on the engines. Think it might not have gotten on that sheet for $reasons
<CobaltWolf> blowfish: smaller rings, the plumbing would've been modified on some
<blowfish> yeah
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<NathanKell> see y'all in a bit
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<Xyne> Hi, I have RO/RSS installed via CKAN with only the recommended mods. Is it normal that RCS Quads still use Monopropellant even if set to other fuels?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: that doesn't sound right
<Xyne> when I just put a command module, a tank, attach an RCS Quad and fill the tank with the correct fuel (htp for example), then Engineer's Report warns me about 'unused htp resource' and 'consumer not receiving monopropellant'
<Xyne> swithing the tank to monopropellant and the warnings are gone
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh, I have that as well. I ignore the engineer report
<Hypergolic_Skunk> just try it out?
<Xyne> hm but when I'm in orbit with that, my rcs is not working
<Hypergolic_Skunk> you can try it on the launch-pad
<Hypergolic_Skunk> remember to enable the RCS thrusters
<Hypergolic_Skunk> and make sure the tank is pressurized
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I also always disable staging
<Xyne> ok, just loading the game, I'll try that
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<Pena> http://i.imgur.com/ZuA7FXz.jpg aaand I think I just hit the zone <3
<Hypergolic_Skunk> has anyone actually ever drunk alcohol on orbit?
<Pena> Well the russians do have rockets...
<Bornholio> yes. Nasa friend confirmed. ANd they love to get dental work done when the come to the US
<Xyne> my tank with rcs is standing on the launch-pad and no navball indicator for rcs or sas ... roll/pitch/yaw are not firing either :-/
<Bornholio> has control limit eceeded
<Bornholio> exceeded
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: do you have avionics?
<Rokker> Bornholio: you know whats great
<Rokker> Bornholio: when someone claiming to be in the aerospace industry claims some absurd shit
<Rokker> and then refuses to provide any evidence that they are even in the industry
<Bornholio> lol
<Bornholio> well i saw the work records since i did hiring interviews
<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk: Guidance Unit, 1m ... Commandstate: Operational, Comms: idle
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: does it have an antenna? :p
<Hypergolic_Skunk> ah, comms
<Xyne> yes, omni range 80km
<Hypergolic_Skunk> hm
<Rokker> Bornholio: so someone on the spacex subreddit is claiming that the AJ26/NK33s originally used on the Antares had completely newly manufactured turbopumps
<Rokker> that the public didnt know about this
<Hypergolic_Skunk> make a new install, and do the install again, Xyne
<Rokker> and that the name of the contractor who built them would not be released
<Rokker> and wasnt mentioned on the congressional report about the antares failure
<Rokker> so i ask for proof hes not full of shit
<Rokker> and he starts going off about how hes not gonna violate itar or put his personal info out there
<Xyne> sadly it's a fresh install
<Hypergolic_Skunk> you mentioned recommended mods. can you do it with only the bare minimum? only those that are required?
<Bornholio> rokker your pain is real, the internet is retards and liars
<lamont> reminds me of a system engineer that i interviewed one time that couldn’t really explain what lsof or strace did, but swore he was and expert, and when i asked him to explain what kinds of problems he’d solved using those tools told me that he couldn’t tell me that because it would violate employer confidentiality
<Qboid> lamont: Hypergolic_Skunk left a message for you in #RO [01.08.2017 12:34:35]: "I know you keep on saying that PEG doesn't consider the atmosphere, but why doesn't it respect its own setting 'start pitch program after X seconds' ?"
<Rokker> Bornholio: the only evidence i have to believe he is in the aerospace industry at all is a claim in a completely separate post that he is working propulsion on SLS
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Rokker: I am a certified Herbal Engineer. AMA!
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: its really pissing me off cause they are upvoting him like crazy and downvoting me like crazy. they are just treating the man who claims to be a prophet as holy
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Rokker: there are people who take Alex Jones seriously. need I say more?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> there also people who shave off their eyebrows and paint them
<Xyne> I didnt install rp0 but I'll look into that, just removed all mods and starting with bare minimum again
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Rokker: or is this on the spacex sub?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: don't install RP0 before the issue is solved
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: r/spacex
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: a sub which SHOULD be better than this
<Hypergolic_Skunk> it's a weird thing. I go to /r/spacex to feel dumb, and to /r/space to feel like a genius
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: nah these days both are pretty fucking stupid
<Hypergolic_Skunk> or maybe you are just so far ahead of the curve, Rokker ? after all you're a local, you're rocket-savvy, and you spend most of your time in aerospace musea
<Rokker> Hypergolic_Skunk: no
<Rokker> people are dum
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Rokker: yeah. well. ain't gonna change :D
<lamont> so Hypergolic_Skunk is that the MET bug and are you on the latest peg-testing-16 release? https://github.com/lamont-granquist/MechJeb2/releases/tag/peg-testing16
<Hypergolic_Skunk> lamont: it's neither. this is for instantaneous launches. it only happens with very specific launch vehicles.
<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk, ok with minimum it's working *cheer
<Hypergolic_Skunk> but playing around with the stages, burn-times, TWR etc will eventually fix it
<lamont> i’m not parsing the problem you’re describing
<lamont> “instantaneous launches”? like autostaging goes crazy on the pad?
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> lamont: I click 'enable autopilot', and then I hit space. no autostaging problem - the problem is that the rocket steers hard to horizontal right after launch, no matter how many seconds I enter into the 'Booster Pitch Start' field
<blowfish> probe core facing the right way?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: nice! now you can be thorough and install one or two mods, then start up KSP and check whether it's still working... or you can add those that you left out all at once, and see whether the problem reappears
<lamont> that sounds like the MET bug, which should be fixed by that release, MET should be running in the upper left and non-zero when it happens
<Hypergolic_Skunk> blowfish: the same rocket works fine when i fiddle with TWR, burn times, etc.
<blowfish> ah, MET bug would do it
<Xyne> jeah, I'll try to make guesses ... all mods take forever to start ksp ;-)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> lamont: that's another bug imo
<Hypergolic_Skunk> the one that made my rocket engines ignite without me using a timed launch or hitting space
<Hypergolic_Skunk> or maybe they are one and the same?
<lamont> two manifestations of the same bug
<Hypergolic_Skunk> the next time I encounter this, I'll try and get all the logs
<lamont> logs probably won’t help as much as screenshots
<Hypergolic_Skunk> those I can do as well :)
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<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk, seems like RemoteTech is the culprit, or at least I don't understand how to do it right
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: can you try installing RemoteTech manually? 1.2.2 should be this one: https://github.com/RemoteTechnologiesGroup/RemoteTech/releases/tag/1.8.6
<Rokker> Bornholio: i swear to god, the missing vertical stabilizer B-52 story gets posted to one of the aviation or military subreddits every god damned day
<Maxsimal> I officially hate git
<dxdy> what did it do to you
<Bornholio> lol, its not like it was an actual test of the vertical stabilizer to see how much abuse it could take...its a test of Rokkers ability to take mental abuse :P
<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk, same with this version, Comms: idle, Status: connected, below time warp 'D+ 0.000000s' indicates connection without delay, on the right from time warp it says 'full probe control' 'not connected' 'no data' 'no signal' ... and I cant activate rcs or sas
<Maxsimal> It's just so confusing. This git bash thing I had to get cause their app won't do a lot of the commands you need is like a bad xterm window
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: what if you try with a capsule incl. a kerbal? (so you dont need a connection)
<Rokker> Bornholio: i mean i know there is the whole "just because you have seen it doesnt mean everyone else has"
<Rokker> but how many fucking times can people not see it before theyve seen it
<dxdy> for basic stuff the git bash ought to be reasonably comfortable though
<Bornholio> I love the aviation stories that use it as some kind of disaster in the air. When they almost expected it and had no real problem getting home.
<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk, then it's 'Local Control' and rcs+sas works ... I just switched the Guidance Unit for a MK1-Capsule
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: then your manned capsule works as it's supposed to. can you make a screenshot of your KSP screen when it doesn't work with a probe/avionics unit?
<Bornholio> !tell pap|Away How do i assign tech tree requirement and costs for my NTR methane configs for RP-0?
<Qboid> Bornholio: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: do you have batteries?
<Hypergolic_Skunk> oh
<Hypergolic_Skunk> yeah you do
<Bornholio> no probe core, only avionics so no SAS is normal, is that starting 1m and the total is abovve 20t
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Bornholio: he should be able to enable RCS
<Xyne> Guidance Unit, 1m ... has 150t limit and sas
<Xyne> without RemoteTech rcs+sas are fine
<Xyne> Ranger Core III and others have same problem
<Raidernick> NathanKell|AFK, i had a chance to look at some of that stuff I need to talk to you about it
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: if you hit Escape, then Settings, then Difficulty Options, under advanced, is there anything out of kilter in the CommNet options?
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<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk, no everything is normal
<Hypergolic_Skunk> it seems like there is a connection issue, but I don't know what else to do in terms of troubleshooting
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I know it's more time-intensive, but if I were in your shoes, I'd try a complete manual base-install
<Hypergolic_Skunk> of RO and RSS
<Hypergolic_Skunk> no CKAN
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> after all, you can have as many installs as you want :)
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<Xyne> or deactivate remotetech
<Hypergolic_Skunk> no. if such a basic functionality is broken, there's a chance more is broken in the install
<Hypergolic_Skunk> stuff you'll maybe only find out deep into your playthrough
<Xyne> I don't plan on playthrough ... sandbox is enough time consuming ^^ ... but I can't imagine that a manual install will help ... I already deleted everything and used original 1.2.2
<Bornholio> i'm on my 6+ RO install, its easy to get a borked install
<Xyne> I saw that the 'activate CommNetwork' button under basic settings keeps disabling even if I reactivate it
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<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: RemoteTech is working for just about everyone here, I assume, and I'd wager most people in this channel are used to manual installations
<Hypergolic_Skunk> CKAN is a nice idea, but more often than not, you end up with something not 100% functional
<Bornholio> I do 90% CKAN but RO/RP-0 i do master
<dxdy> is there an up to date converter between that mks colonization stuff and tacls?
<Rokker> NathanKell|AFK: huh... the colonial viper looks rather good in VFA-103 paint
<github> [RP-0] ppboyle opened pull request #740: Adjusting contracts (Developmental...Developmental) https://git.io/v7Ekd
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<Maxsimal> !tell Pap: Finally got those contracts updated. Should fix what you saw earlier, and added cooldowns to the other early manned that can get spammed a lot. Probably should add it to supersonic too. Actually a lot of those plane contracts need some love.
<Qboid> Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio> maxsimal whats a plane :P
<Bornholio> oh i know i launch into plane a lot :)
* Hypergolic_Skunk flogs Bornholio in public
<Bornholio> yeah flogging!
<Xyne> Hypergolic_Skunk, ok I just deleted everything, startet with the plain ksp 1.2.2 no CKAN, just RemoteTech1.8.6.zip into GameData ... Problem is still happening: new Game, sandbox, core + rcs + rcs tank, nothing more
<Hypergolic_Skunk> Xyne: try it in a career game, even if youre not planning to play career, please :)
<Hypergolic_Skunk> I've had things work in one and not in the other
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<Rokker> Pap|Away: you
<Rokker> Pap|IRCcloudTest: you
<Rokker> one of you
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<NathanKell> o/
<Raidernick> NathanKell, good I need to talk to you about some stuff
<Raidernick> from alst night
<NathanKell> Ya?
<Raidernick> I took a peek at those r-7 engine configs
<Raidernick> it's not going to work
<Raidernick> I made mine way before the generic ones were made
<Raidernick> yet whoever made the generic ones decided for some reason to use their own names
<Raidernick> all my names use dashes and the generic ones use underscores
<Raidernick> I see no reason to do that other than to just be annoying
<Raidernick> but ignoring that, the mix rates are not correct
<Raidernick> they aren't the mix rates listed for those engines on that b124 site
<Raidernick> my configs use the mix rates from that site
<NathanKell> And as we've discussed, b143... is *not* reliable.
<NathanKell> It's in fact probably less reliable than 'nautix, it turns out
<NathanKell> It has more info, but that info is wrong.
<NathanKell> Like, he'll have *one* good piece of data, then calculate a bunch of other stuff from it, then claim it's all data.
<NathanKell> It baldly contradicts the source material *many* times.
<Raidernick> the mix rates on astronautix are the same
<Raidernick> 2.47
<NathanKell> regex you around?
<NathanKell> regex: do you remember where you got the mix rates?
<Raidernick> the mix rates in the file are almost the same
<Raidernick> but like 0.01 or 0.001 off
<NathanKell> Ah weird
<NathanKell> ok, well, happy to change that then
<Raidernick> it's not like it's COMPLETELY different
<Raidernick> but different enough that it's a pita to fix
<Raidernick> yeah it's like .3603 vs .3531
<Raidernick> so 0.0072 difference
<Raidernick> NathanKell, also it's missing a lot of the configs
<Raidernick> and can the names be unified
<Raidernick> why are the generic ones using underscores
<Raidernick> they are idential to my names for the most part except it has underscores
<CobaltWolf> this KSP scaling thread is my new favorite thing
<regex> NathanKell: mix rates for what?
<regex> Oh, the RD-107/108?
<regex> hang on
<Raidernick> yes
<Raidernick> you used the wrong number
<Raidernick> that page clearly says 2.47 mix rate
<Raidernick> you used 2.55 or something
<Raidernick> 2.47 for rd-107 and 2.39 for 108
<Raidernick> Коэффициент соотношение компонентов 2.47 2.39
<Raidernick> see
<Raidernick> NathanKell, i knew i wasn't crazy using that
<NathanKell> ok then we'd best change it
<Raidernick> NathanKell, the values I have then are correct
<Raidernick> you can copy those
<NathanKell> ok
<Raidernick> also can we please change the _ to -
<Raidernick> lol
<Raidernick> once that's all done I'll check exactly which engine configs are missing, add them and once that's all done I'll consider starting to move my stuff to use the generic configs
<NathanKell> ok
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<Raidernick> NathanKell, you are going to make those mix rate changes?
<NathanKell> ya, self-assigned
<Raidernick> ok I double checked my mix rates of 0.632 and 0.368 for rd-108 are correct
<NathanKell> cool!
<Raidernick> and for rd-107 its 0.3603 and 0.6397
<Raidernick> that's 2.39 and 2.47
<Raidernick> from that energomash page
<Raidernick> same as b134
<Raidernick> 143
<Raidernick> w/e
<Raidernick> ferram4, what does NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
<Raidernick> at FerramAerospaceResearch.FARPartGeometry.GeometryPartModule.RebuildAllMeshData () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
<Raidernick> at FerramAerospaceResearch.FARPartGeometry.GeometryPartModule.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 mean in relation to loading a craft file
<regex> Also, make sure you have the correct flow rate for the HTP
<ferram4> It means something broke in FAR getting the geometry information to actually do anything with it.
<Raidernick> regex, i don't see that on that page
<regex> 8.8kg/s
<Raidernick> regex, is that part of the liquid fuel flow rate?
<Raidernick> i'm guessing they are combining it
<ferram4> Yeah, no idea. None of those should be null.
<regex> No, it shouldn't be
<Raidernick> well regex it lists the mix rate as that
<regex> It shouldn't have been combined at all, the engine needs the HTP to run the turbopump
<Raidernick> and that's just the 2 fuels
<regex> The whole point of having the RD-107/108 require HTP as fuel was to simulate the usage of the turbopump. All of the A-4 series should do the exact same thing.
<regex> Althought he flow rate should obviously vary
<Raidernick> if that's the case that it shouldn't be mixed then it should be it's own engine config
<Raidernick> like the addon vernier configs
<regex> However it's supposed to work, sure.
<Raidernick> it shouldn't be part of the config for the main 2 fuels
<Raidernick> because it's changing the flow rates
<regex> Okay then, it shouldn't
<NathanKell> what?
<NathanKell> No, it is *absolutely* right how we have it: HTP is an additional resource the engine consumes
<NathanKell> like how it would consume EC.
<NathanKell> And it is *not* changing the *propellant* flow rates.
<Raidernick> NathanKell, but why should it be considered part of the actual fuel burn if it's ONLY being used for the turbopump
<NathanKell> Because it's not considered part of the actual fuel burn? THe only fuel is kerosene.
<Raidernick> i mean fuel/ox
<NathanKell> And as I said it's *not* considered part of that. hence the ignoreForIsp tag.
<Raidernick> NathanKell, I'm not sure how to explain what I mean, I guess it's like the whole requiring helium in every tank to pressurize it and having it consumed by the tank as a resource
<NathanKell> That has neglible effects on stage mass.
<NathanKell> The HTP does not.
<NathanKell> that is to say, the helium itself has negligible effects, the heavy tankage does not, and we model the heavy tankage. In the case of engines that use HTP to power their turbopumps, the HTP does have a considerable mass.
<Raidernick> yes but when you look up the propellant mass in a stage you are getting the mass of the fuel/ox
<Raidernick> that doesn't include the things like (the helium) or in this case
<Raidernick> htp
<NathanKell> And if you find the right sources you'll also find the HTP
<NathanKell> I've seen HTP stats for the R-7.
<Raidernick> yes for the new r-7s
<NathanKell> That's why we have a known flow rate for it.
<NathanKell> as regex said.
<Raidernick> find me htp stats for one of the old obscure ones
<Raidernick> it's not like the soyuz 2.1a has the same propellant mass as some version from the 60s
<NathanKell> chamber pressure isn't that far off and the flow rates aren't that diferent for the propellants, yeah? Which means the current HTP flow rates will be about right.
<Raidernick> i'm sure the new ones are well documented
<Raidernick> NathanKell, the fuel masses aren't the same though
<Raidernick> if it has mroe or less fuel it has to have more or less htp then right
<NathanKell> I'm not talking propellant loading I'm talking flow rate
<NathanKell> so yes, more loading = more loading.
<NathanKell> but flow rate is regardless of loading
<regex> Yep. The turbopump probably hasn't changed considerably aside from maybe some manufacturing processes.
<Raidernick> NathanKell, i'll just let you do w/e you gotta do to it
<NathanKell> wait now I'm confused--do you not model the HTP at all on your end?
<regex> So the flow rate likely isn't a big factor. But if the engine is to be run for longer, or has a bell that allows that, along with additional thrust, it changes the amount of HTP carried
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<Raidernick> NathanKell, when these changes were being made they were being changed constantly
<Raidernick> and i didn't want to change it until the work was 100% done forever
<Raidernick> so no
<NathanKell> ah ok
<Raidernick> like i said it was before the generic configs existed
<Raidernick> i included the htp mass as part of the tank mass
<Raidernick> the dry mass
<NathanKell> That will make them underperform a fair bit then...
<Raidernick> NathanKell, i haven't noticed an issue with the performance
<Raidernick> at least not with launching any of the vehicles i have for it
<NathanKell> right, maybe because the lack of residuals balances it out
<regex> well, the HTP should deplete over the burn
<NathanKell> or they just had large margins :]
<Raidernick> NathanKell, like i had said I know that any changes to this will require redoing everything
<Raidernick> so if someone wants to do it they can do it
<Raidernick> but it can't be half assed
<Raidernick> it all needs to be done at once
<Raidernick> but the other engine configs that are missing still need to be added first
<awang> Does KSP normally do background throttling?
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<xShadowx> "background throttling"?
<xShadowx> slows the game if you have too much parts/mods/etc, so 1 second of game time can take 2 seconds of real time for example so game can keep itself happy
<awang> Uh
<awang> In my case I'm letting KSP load in the background
<awang> One core is pegged at 100% for about 30 seconds to a minute
<awang> Then basically goes to sleep
<awang> So what should take a few minutes to load is taking more like 30+ minutes
<Raidernick> NathanKell, on a side ntoe unrelated to that mess I fixed the thor and juno ii to be more realistic
<Bornholio> is it in module manager patching most of that time awang
<awang> Bornholio: I think so
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<Bornholio> that sounds like a full rebuild. if it is doing a change it will rebuild its cache next time will be fast
<Bornholio> unless you add more mods
<Bornholio> then it will rebuild cache again :P
<awang> I could have sworn that it did this even with a cache...
<awang> And still makes me wonder why KSP basically stops eating CPU time until I switch back to it
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<xShadowx> you said background, so its minimized? my first thought would be "is i pausing the game?" which i dont remember if ksp did that nor if any such effect at loading screen
<NathanKell> !tell Pap,Maxsimal looking at costs, Maxsimal, I tend to agree we need to inflate cost based on number of stages / decouplers / something.
<Qboid> NathanKell: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Raidernick> NathanKell, can i assume that all x series altair srb's use htpb?
<NathanKell> I don't know. I thought HTPB came about later?
<Bornholio> HTPB is a broad brush
<Raidernick> NathanKell, it states either solid fuel, or solid pban
<NathanKell> what states?
<Raidernick> german site
<Raidernick> are you saying it uses pspc?
<Raidernick> not htpb?
<NathanKell> yeah, this is why I don't trust it. PBAN wasn't even *invented* yet.
<NathanKell> (AFAIK)
<NathanKell> HTPB was quite new at the time, I thought only Polaris and Minuteman were using it around 59.
<Raidernick> it says solid pban just for 1 type of motor
<NathanKell> PBAN for sure wasn't around
<Raidernick> in 1965
<NathanKell> Ah
<NathanKell> ok that makes more sense
<Raidernick> the rest it just says solid
<Raidernick> i assume it means pspc
<NathanKell> Altair was a series of motors, yeah
<NathanKell> A long series
<NathanKell> Like how Delta IV has nothing to do with Delta I :P
<Raidernick> ferram4, is there a way to make jetvanes "move" using the elevon/flap partmodule but not have them be affected by FAR as a lifting surface
<Raidernick> since directing thrust that way doesn't work in ksp
<Raidernick> they are "fake" and the srb gimbals to make it look like they work
<Raidernick> but right now they are acting like fins
<ferram4> You want separate parts that need to be added that are fins but are not fins?
<ferram4> I would suggest merging them into the engine model and using transform shenanigans to make them rotate with the gimbals.
<NathanKell> To get roll control you need one gimbal transform per jet vane anyway
<NathanKell> so it works fine
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<Raidernick> NathanKell, the jet vanes are separate parts each
<Raidernick> and they each have their own transforms yeah
<NathanKell> I'm with ferram: combining them is by far the easiest
<Raidernick> ferram4, so you say the only way to have far ignore them is to have them be part of the engine?
<Raidernick> ok
<ferram4> And have no FAR module on them.
<ferram4> At all.
<ferram4> If you won't want wing behavior, don't have a wing module.
<Raidernick> ferram4, does far autoadd any modules?
<Raidernick> do i need to run an after far in mm or something
<ferram4> Besides the base one that every part gets, no.
<ferram4> Just
<ferram4> Stop
<ferram4> Trying
<ferram4> To
<ferram4> Game
<ferram4> Things
<ferram4> Please
<Raidernick> are you saying to make stuff less realistic?
<ferram4> Modelling a fin in an engine as a wing in the freestream is not at all realistic.
<ferram4> So you should not add the module for it.
<ferram4> So don't.
<ferram4> If you only want visual behavior, set it up solely for visual behavior using the gimbal module.