<wb99999999>
gotta love how NASA did LVs in the late 60s
<wb99999999>
"ok we have this hugely powerful S-IV stage, now all we need to do is to lob it high enough somehow."
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<Starwaster>
brute force :D
<ProjectThoth>
The S-I was just clustered tanks, which is pretty damn cool.
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<awang>
!seen Pap
<Qboid>
awang: I last saw Pap on [27.08.2017 02:17:54] in #RO saying: "awang: You have to update the KCT.dll"
<Starwaster>
one of these days my cats are going to accidentally stage one of my rockets at THE most inopportune time and I'm really gonna get jarateed off
<Bornholio>
and then love on the cat till he's annoyed
<Starwaster>
and yes ProjectThoth, the S-I was kinda cool
<Starwaster>
if we had maintained Saturn and the Apollo we wouldn't be having to hitchhike to the ISS.... (or maybe we wouldn't have built an ISS... I dunno)
<ProjectThoth>
Starwaster: As much as I enjoy Eyes Turned Skyward, I think it's a tad bit optimistic.
<Bornholio>
NTR stage for 17-22 and madea station at L1
<Starwaster>
I'm really only vaguely familiar with it. But I think that was the point though wasn't it? To explore a more optimistic path of what we might have done?
<ProjectThoth>
Probably the "best" outcome would have been Saturn-Shuttle, or operating a shuttle-derived SHLV that built off of existing infrastructure and bringing that online in the early 1990s.
<ProjectThoth>
Starwaster: Yeah, I think the point was to be optimistic. Doesn't make it any less great of a story, though.
<ProjectThoth>
I think the big failing of the Shuttle was that it had such a hilariously small payload (which really killed any hopes of BLEO stuff for decades).
<wb99999999>
because it is a shuttle ya know
<wb99999999>
trust me they have tried for more than 3 or 4 times to seriously make a "non-shuttle"
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Right, and they got swept under the rug because everyone was optimistic about flight rates and cost, etc.
<ProjectThoth>
Plus NASA's budget was a bit, uh, nonexistent.
<wb99999999>
but finally we are going to have a non-shuttle after all these
<wb99999999>
the (sad and underfunded) SLS
<ProjectThoth>
Shuttle-C was probably the best chance something like that had at working. But it got killed for good when politics intervened and called for ending the Shuttle program by 2010.
<wb99999999>
I mean the thinking is not very complicated
<wb99999999>
to lift the orbiter + its payload is a good 100 tons or so
<wb99999999>
then why don't we just leave the orbiter out of the equation
<wb99999999>
wola, 100 tons to LEO
<patamorphism>
and then you have the soviets pulling a Bender - "Screw you guys, we'll make our own shuttle with hydrolox and boosters... infact, forget the shuttle"
<ProjectThoth>
But government projects are rarely efficient nor fast moving.
<Rokker>
wb99999999: voila*
<wb99999999>
yes sir
<wb99999999>
and anybody who ever played RO knows how hard it is to get 100 tons to orbit
<wb99999999>
I wonder if we have this kind of capability...oh WE ARE ALREADY DOING IT
<wb99999999>
but they cut Shuttle C, they cut NLS and they cut Constellation
<awang>
...Is there a way to tell under what situations the mass spectrometer experiment could be used without actually flying it?
<ProjectThoth>
Bornholio: Holy crap, this needs to be stock.
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Engine cycles, like using an expander cycle.
<awang>
ProjectThoth: If only I had a nickel for every time I heard that something should be stock...
<ProjectThoth>
awang: I feel you.
<ProjectThoth>
You know what I want to be stock? Modular SRBs.
<wb99999999>
Got it, but I'm thinking about increasing the sea level Isp
<ProjectThoth>
I wanna be able to drop SRB segments on one another and customize them more efficiently.
<ProjectThoth>
I don't know why a mod like this doesn't exist.
<wb99999999>
I know increasing chamber pressure helps...
<ProjectThoth>
wb99999999: Not much you can do, tbh.
<ProjectThoth>
LOX/LH2 is just amusingly crap at sea level. Even the SSME only pulled about 366s.
<wb99999999>
RS-68 got 365 while being a gas gen
<wb99999999>
and it runs on lower pressure
<ProjectThoth>
How high are you trying to go?
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<wb99999999>
I don't know
<awang>
ProjectThoth: I thought I remembered someone talking about writing a mod that would at least let you set thrust curves for SRBs
<awang>
No idea what happened
<ProjectThoth>
awang: Yeah, I remember seeing that, too.
<wb99999999>
just nebulously thinking about aerospace stuff make me less anxious
<wb99999999>
so I do it all the time
<ProjectThoth>
I can't imagine that what I'm thinking of would be a pain in the ass behind the scenes. SolidFuel is already a resource, the tanks would behave like liquid tanks do in the stock game, all you'd really need is parts.
<soundnfury>
awang: that sounds like my mod Boosteriferous
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<ProjectThoth>
I'd try to do it, but I'm not a programming kind of guy.
<ProjectThoth>
I could see maybe three or four parts - nosecone, fuel segment, engine bell, and a blowout module that'd allow thrust termination.
<wb99999999>
awang you should talk to starwaster and we can finally get a procedural SRB with thrust profile
<wb99999999>
XD
<patamorphism>
ProjectThoth: what would segments add to this that you couldn't do with procedural srbs?
<ProjectThoth>
patamorphism: Some people like modular parts.
<soundnfury>
it _should_ be possible for ProceduralParts' SRB to use the Boosteriferous code
<Bornholio>
linear Aerospike and JS-2 aerospikes both got good sea level thrust and isp
<soundnfury>
but at the time I looked at proc parts' code and ran screaming
<soundnfury>
(and these days I hardly use solids, and proc solids even less, so meh)
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<wb99999999>
no it's not that simple
<ProjectThoth>
I just think it'd add some new options for people who like playing in a stockalike game.
<ProjectThoth>
(i.e., me)
<patamorphism>
what options though? I'm trying to imagine how it would be implemented, and just based on what you described so far it doesn't seem like it would take too much work to modify proc srbs
<wb99999999>
you can't just get the code in there and make it work...procedural SRB, or if I'd to be precise, STRETCHY SRB is a seriously old piece of code
<wb99999999>
starwaster had problem modernize it since like...always
<awang>
soundnfury: Looks about right
<awang>
Sort of feel guilty about forgetting about it, given how useful it could be :/
<ProjectThoth>
patamorphism: I guess it works better in the context of "things I'd like to see in a stock game" rather than "mods that would be useful." To me, it's just a glaring oversight.
<awang>
wb99999999: Oh no, I'm not good with modding at all
<Starwaster>
my problem is mostly finding the time to get in there and work with it when I'm behind on other things
<ProjectThoth>
patamorphism: Like, you know how the basic "building a stage" process is fuel tank + engine? This would kind of be like that.
<Starwaster>
right now, focusing on new MLI code for cryo so we can configure tanks with however many layers of MLI we want
<ProjectThoth>
Nose cones are already in the game. The thrust termination port would be a new part.
<Starwaster>
which code is working ok in its basic form
<ProjectThoth>
Same with the solid motor segments.
<wb99999999>
this is quite awesome still
<wb99999999>
but you know the way stock treated solids
<wb99999999>
they are really just a "boost"
<Starwaster>
SRB segments aren't that hard, doesn't even require procedural. Can totally do it just with stock after patching the solid resource a bit
<ProjectThoth>
IMO, looking at parts already in the game, you could probably re-purpose the RT-10 as the engine module.
<ProjectThoth>
(just using that as an example)
<Starwaster>
I once hacked stretchy tanks to make a sort of primitive form of procedural SRB long before stretchy tanks was turned into Procedural Parts
<ProjectThoth>
I've said "just" a lot in the last few lines, I should stop doing that.
<patamorphism>
and then have a slider for thrust? or solid segments add to thrust? or just more engine parts
<Starwaster>
no
<Starwaster>
you should JUST stop doing that
<ProjectThoth>
Starwaster: hahahaha
<Starwaster>
har har har
<ProjectThoth>
patamorphism: Slider for thrust on the engine bit, slider for SolidFuel on the fuel segments.
<ProjectThoth>
Kinda leans on the edge of realism, but that's the first way I could think to do it.
<wb99999999>
the way stock treats solid is very utilitarian...
<Starwaster>
you're describing procedural SRB, just pretend that stretching it along the Y is adding segments
<wb99999999>
they have very low Isp even for solids
<ProjectThoth>
Starwaster: Yeah, just a bit of wishfulthinkment on my part for "things that'd be nice in stock."
<wb99999999>
I'd say I like the more realistic solids a lot more
<ProjectThoth>
Oh, sure, you could overhaul the whole game to be realistic.
<ProjectThoth>
But I highly doubt that's been done before. :P
<wb99999999>
one thing I do quite often is add kick stage to a payload too light for a certain LV
<wb99999999>
increasing the delta V and "weight down" the vehicle at the same time so it doesn't burn up or get teared apart during max Q
<wb99999999>
I learned this trick reading about the new horizon mission profile
<wb99999999>
New Horizon is launched on an Atlas 551 and weighs about have a ton... Even for real world standard it is way too light for the vehicle, but with a big kick motor it's about the same mass as a comsat
<wb99999999>
half a ton*
<patamorphism>
huh, New Horizon took only 9 hours to pass the moon's orbit. Talk about being in a hurry
<wb99999999>
they boosted it to escape velocity of the Solar System
<patamorphism>
8 and a half even
<wb99999999>
it's so light the Atlas CCB alone probably is enough to get it, the kick motor and the Centaur all to orbit
<wb99999999>
and then they burned the Centaur and the kick motor in short successions
<wb99999999>
If this is not some serious speed I don't know what is
<blowfish>
ehh I doubt that
<blowfish>
Centaur is like 20t
<blowfish>
no way the first stage can put that in orbit on its own
<wb99999999>
it's the first stage plus 5 boosters
<blowfish>
still though
<wb99999999>
I think after MECO it's going to be like 7.1 km/s or something
<blowfish>
Atlas V is like 18.8t to orbit with the centaur
<blowfish>
551 that is
<wb99999999>
you know what, I'll try to fly this in RO and see
<wb99999999>
just for shits and giggles
<wb99999999>
maybe I can prove myself wrong
<Bornholio>
I remember thinkning new horizons looked like it lept off the pad very high TWR
<Bornholio>
not the normal slow atlas liftoff
<wb99999999>
551s go fast at lift off
<wb99999999>
what you remember is likely the most launched variant, 401
<Bornholio>
and really vertical
<wb99999999>
this one do climb very slowly XD
<wb99999999>
Do they under-fuel the Centaur for the heavier launches?
<wb99999999>
I know they do this for the DCSS
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<awang>
soundnfury: Boosteriferous doesn't support RO, does it?
<awang>
Is SpaceDock down for anyone else?
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<SpecimenSpiff>
spacedock down for me also
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<Slavi>
So my Mercury Redstone 1 is basically a dumb plane with too many wings, parked on top of a RD-103.
<Slavi>
It works a little, as long as it doesn't go to fast.
<Slavi>
But boy oh boy is it prone to snap-rolls, which are great in a dogfight but terrifying in all situations.
<ferram4>
The RD-0120 is a hydrolox engine with both pumps and the turbine on a single shaft.
<ferram4>
The Russians are absolutely insane. Why.
<patamorphism>
because its not enough to just go to space, you need to do it in style
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<soundnfury>
awang: no, all the SRBs in RO already have realistic thrust curves. A few even have them selectable as different engine configs
<soundnfury>
the exception is Proc SRBs, but like I say, aaargh Proc Parts code :/
<SpecimenSpiff>
So, I spend half the day making an absolutely beautiful space plane, getting it to fly nicely, and trying to get it to behave on a rocket. Then I finally give up and make a lawn dart which does the job easily in ten minutes...
<SpecimenSpiff>
I dont have an album of the first lander that went straight in, getting that one right in terms of comms, light, etc was a pain
<wb99999999>
true
<wb99999999>
how much did you need for a propulsive capture?
<soundnfury>
SpecimenSpiff: I always call it that. gravy loss, gravy turn, gravy assist
<SpecimenSpiff>
no idea anymore, that was over a year ago now
<wb99999999>
no problem, I'll just do the usual thing and throw something to mars in sandbox
<wb99999999>
call it a sounding probe
<wb99999999>
almost literally XD
<SpecimenSpiff>
I hired two new pilots early in my career that had great stats, now Im doing maintenance flights in my first sub-orbital hopper, and rotating 6 pilots through is a pain...
<wb99999999>
that's why it's called a maintenance
<wb99999999>
it's a chore and nobody wanted to do it
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<Maxsimal_>
o/
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<github>
[RP-0] pap1723 pushed 1 new commit to Developmental: https://git.io/v5GLx
<github>
RP-0/Developmental 940bddd Pap: Fix EVA Science, Add Orbit Check for First Satellite...
<Pap>
That will fix the crew EVA issue!
<Qboid>
Pap: awang left a message for you in #RO [27.08.2017 12:37:20]: "Could it make sense to have the radial biological sample capsule from stock be more/less expensive than the capsule from SXT, since the former could be packed into a space in more creative ways?"
<Qboid>
Pap: awang left a message for you in #RO [27.08.2017 12:38:11]: "Also, should fairings occlude some science experiments, like the film return thing?"
<Pap>
awang: I don't know about that. I could see arguments on both sides of changing the cost for the Bio Experiments and would be willing to change / leave it based on everyones thoughts
<Pap>
awang: I understand why you would think that the fairings should occlude some experiments, and it is probably more realistic, but, since we cannot custom design fairings and experiments to work in specific conditions (like they can in RL), it doesn't work with the game mechanics
<borntosleep>
morning pap
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<Pap>
o/ Bornholio
<Maxsimal_>
o/ Pap
<Bornholio>
pap if you have time can you peak at the PR I started and lood at what might have taken the module out of the RD-108? Also it needs a slight tweak before pushing , normal braces missing thing
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<Maxsimal_>
Pap: I mentioned this to NK, but Proc wings are having a lot of issues - know if he or anyone else is looking into them?
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<Pap>
sure Bornholio
<Pap>
Maxsimal_: Yeah, NK is going to be away more than usual over the next few days as he has a house guest. I think all issues will have to be re-looked at when he is able to be online more
<Bornholio>
is there an issue open?
<Maxsimal_>
Pap: Cool :)
<Pap>
Bornholio: So what is the actual issue with the RD-108? I rebuilt the entire file when I did the RD-107 and moved in all of Raidernick's configs. I must have made a mistake somewhere along the way
<Maxsimal_>
Pap: Oh, another question - know if he's figured out what to do to limit start node cockpits from going over Karman?
<Bornholio>
it was missing the engine configs module, so i put that back in, phineasfreak noticed the missing braces and commented on it
<Bornholio>
also not sure what origMass is supposed to be, i put the VSR value in its place
<Pap>
Maxsimal_: Yes, we fixed that issue while you were on vacation
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<Maxsimal_>
Pap: I just took a Junkers Ju-87 cockpit to 150km and the pilot was just fine after.
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<Starwaster>
wb99999999, soundnfury you want a lunar orbit high enough to be able to kill enough horizontal velocity before you hit. If you're too low then you might hit something before you've decelerated enough for landing
<Starwaster>
oops
<Starwaster>
!tell wb99999999 you want a lunar orbit high enough to be able to kill enough horizontal velocity before you hit. If you're too low then you might hit something before you've decelerated enough for landing
<Qboid>
Starwaster: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<patamorphism>
Well, this is probably the worst moment to find out that SSTU's Orion doesn't have RCS built-in
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<patamorphism>
Oh nevermind, its even worse to find out that it doesn't have proper temperature configs
<Pap>
@patamorphism What version are you on?
<Pap>
I am pretty sure that both of those things are configured
<patamorphism>
@Pap I'm using the latest RO commit from aug 24
<Pap>
I am looking at the Orion configs right now and both temperature and RCS is configured
<patamorphism>
Yeah I don't understand it. I'm comparing the difference between apollo and orion and it seems right, the only differences being lossExp, pyrolysisLossFactor, and lossConst
<Maxsimal_>
Pap: Dunno if you saw my reply, but yeah, either I don't have this fix - and I have everything up to date 2 days ago - or it's not working for this Junkers cockpit.
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<patamorphism>
Hm whats the relation between pyrolysisLossFactor and the other loss values? pyrolysis seems to be a minimum 2k all the way up to 70k, but orion has a value of 600. I'm assuming the high lossExp and low lossConst allows it to be so low?
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<patamorphism>
In the VAB, Orion's heat shield module says it has a loss at 2000K of 0.0 units/sec (flux 2.65W), compared to Apollo's 2.2units/sec (flux 91.4kW), and Soyuz's 1.3units/sec (flux 4.66kW)
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<Pap>
Maxsimal_: Create a tell for NathanKell. Sounds like a Module issue
<Bornholio>
that would mean its not an ablative dominant heat control, relying on insulation and heat radiation or its wrong :P
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<patamorphism>
well I think my dead crew confirms the wrong part :P
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
o/ how are things progressing, Pap / Bornholio ? :)
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<Maxsimal_>
!tell NathanKell: Pap says you guys fixed the issue with start cockpits going past Karman, but I just flew a JU-87 to 150km with no trouble, pilot survived. I updated 2 days ago w/everything from the wiki install instructions.
<Qboid>
Maxsimal_: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Bornholio>
hypergolic_Skunk few problem children in training for me, couple bug fixes. NK was busy with sarbian and pap was hiding so not much last few days. Blowfish did an update to AJE for 1.3 so we are really getting close in terms of all mods needed for 1.3
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
1.3 even? D: seems I missed a lot!
<Bornholio>
I don't hold out for a 1.3 RO for a while but every mod moves it closer. Have you tried out crewed science yet?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
no I haven't. life is getting in the way at the moment, no time to test or play anything :/
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
trying very hard to find a place in Amsterdam right now. once that mission is accomplished, though...... :D
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<Bornholio>
hard place to find a flat, good luck. A work friend of mine just had to find a place in Bremen, tahnkfully his job gave him one for a couple months while doing it
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<Hypergolic_Skunk>
thanks. what I wouldn't give for an employer that does this in A'dam..
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<Bornholio>
American vision of your plight: Skunk is getting stoned and sleeping with strippers each night...what a lucky guy
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I haven't been this sober for months... need to be awake and smart at the new job :P
<awang>
Pap: I thought that the camera/fairing thing could hook into the same code that determines whether a fairing is shielding something from the atmosphere
<awang>
I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the code, though, so it's just a guess
<awang>
Pap: Also, I sometimes get science from the runway. Is this bad?
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<Pap>
awang: landed on the runway?
<awang>
Pap: Either that or flying over the runway. Don't remember the details, but it always happened while in the course of a crash
<awang>
Also, I may have found a KCT bug
<awang>
When starting a new game, I can either upgrade VAB build rate 1 or build rate 2
<awang>
If I select build rate 1, the option to upgrade build rate 2 vanishes
<awang>
And R&D is at 4.75 science a year
<awang>
If I select build rate 2, the option to upgrade both build rate 1 and 2 remains
<awang>
And R&D is at 11.875 science a year
<awang>
Can anyone else replicate this?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
I can definitely confirm that the VAB Build rate 1/2 happened to me
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: As in build rate 2 vanishing?
<awang>
And if so, did it ever come back?
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
never came back
<awang>
Hm
<awang>
How recent?
<awang>
Looks like the number of simultaneous contracts allowed by mission control is also affected by this
<awang>
8/6/4 for trivial, significant, and exceptional by default
<awang>
Also, the build rate 1/2 thing only appears to happen if you upgrade right upon creating the save
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
just weeks ago
<awang>
Exiting to main menu, then loading the save again makes both rates stay, even if rate 1 is the first upgrade
<Hypergolic_Skunk>
but it did that for me forever - as in, in 1.0.5, in 1.1.2, 1.1.3 and 1.2.2
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<awang>
Crap
<awang>
And it stopped breaking for me
<awang>
Hypergolic_Skunk: Huh, didn't know the bug had been there for that long
<awang>
Although I haven't paid attention in the past
<Pap>
awang: What I am saying is that we don't want that to happen with the fairing occluding science experiments because I cannot create a custom fairing that would wrap around a lens of a camera that could still be used in those situations
<Pap>
awang: Technically, the runway is it's own biome. From what I understand, there is not a way to remove it for science gains
<awang>
Hmmm... Possible correlation: Broken behavior is shown when the "welcome to KCT" box is narrower. For some reason, upon some starts, it's wider, and those don't seem to exhibit the broken behavior
<awang>
Pap: Oh, that makes sense. Unless you can make a part that has a "transparent" attribute or something? But that is probably more trouble than it's worth
<awang>
Pap: How are you preventing things like Automated Science Sampler from picking up science from it automatically? I never would have noticed picking up science from it otherwise
<Pap>
awang: I don't think we are, but from my experience (and it could be wrong), you cannot really get those biomes from orbit. And RO disables all landed science on Earth
<awang>
Hmmm... Could you disable flying science for the KSC biomes then?
<a_schack>
Honestly, it's such little science that if people want to go out of their way to gather KSC science, I say have fun
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<Pap>
awang: Flying Low science is basically all removed except for 3 experiments, and it is only at 25% modifier so it is EXTREMELY low
<awang>
I'll get a screenshot next time. Don't remember exactly what experiment, but I could have sworn it was at least 0.5 science or something
<awang>
Not a lot, but could help in the early game
<Maxsimal_>
awang: I don't get the issue you do - whichever one I pick in VAB, I end up with ~.05 BP/s. But if I pick the first I get .0525, if I pick the second it disappears, I end up with .05
<Bornholio>
yeah its faking you out, should be storing it in the 2nd VAB spot when you bump VAB it might show up.
<Bornholio>
KCT needs a little input screening work done, but its not to big a deal mostly
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<awang>
Maxsimal_: Does the option to upgrade rate 2 remain after picking the first?
<awang>
And what is your R&D rate?
<awang>
Bornholio: What do you mean?
<Maxsimal_>
awang: No, it doesn't
<Maxsimal_>
awang: And my R&D rate was the same either way, 4something, the low value.
<awang>
Maxsimal_: What is it when you first create a new save?
<awang>
It's 11.875 by default for me
<awang>
Also, all my buildings are fully upgraded?
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<awang>
Also, why is the Taerobee parachute so ridiculously expensive?
<awang>
256.60 funds?
<Maxsimal_>
awang: When first creating it's at the higher values you mentioned, .1BP/s for build rate
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: I think I might add another frenchy tracking station if you don't mind
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: [fun context] for Vega launches there's a flanking station, because galliot gets hidden by the smokey exhaust; it's off to the side: https://goo.gl/maps/eRaMaFDSRB62
<egg|zzz|egg>
Pap: I guess if we want to cover missions going north or northeast we should have Bermuda, St. Hubert, Saskastoon, Svalbard, Santa Maria Açores, Aussaguel too... :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
and Lucknow, Jeju...
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<Asymptote>
egg|zzz|egg, read your PM :)
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<Starwaster>
bornholio so did you try the new RF branch yet?
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<wb99999999>
surprise surprise, Thor is a better rocket than I thought it was
<Qboid>
wb99999999: Starwaster left a message for you in #RO [28.08.2017 15:32:39]: "you want a lunar orbit high enough to be able to kill enough horizontal velocity before you hit. If you're too low then you might hit something before you've decelerated enough for landing"
<wb99999999>
I see starwaster.
<wb99999999>
so is sort of dependent to your lander's acceleration
<lamont>
hmmmm 74GB Unit/Player.log...
<lamont>
*Unity
<wb99999999>
omg it's the very real lamont
<lamont>
yes?
<wb99999999>
nah it's just something I do when I see someone previously only seen on the "credit" portion of a webpage
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<Starwaster>
I do it all the time when someone I've never seen before joins a friends only game
<Starwaster>
and then they wonder how they know me